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Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment
3

Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

(OP)
I am looking into relay test equipment currently.  Does anyone have any advise?  I have looked at Omicron and Megger some.  I really don't know where to start.  What other manufacturers are good?  I am looking at testing overcurrent, differential and distance relays (SEL) in substation and transmission stations.

Preferred manufacturer?  Likes/dislikes of certain models?  Features you really like?  I don't want to lug around a bunch of boxes, but I also don't want a suitcase that I need a truck to haul.  I'm early enough in my search I can still be that picky... :)

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

Have you looked at:
Multi-Amp
or
Programma

Alan

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

BTW....not sure who owns/sells the multi amp line these days, if anyone.

Alan

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

"Megger" has the former AVO line of test equipment.  Also try Doble Engineering.  I'm particularly fond of their equipment.

You're not going to haul around as much iron as the test sets of twenty years ago, but you're still going to have a pretty good load with the test sets plus a laptop.

Also, be advised that the current generation of solid-state test sets work well with current iterations of solid state microprocessor-based relays, but some sets have serious issues testing the older electromechanical relays you might find still in service in some venues.

Also, if you're fairly new to the game, you might need to know that having the test set is only part of the equation.  Most test sets now team up with test automation software.  You may need some training to use the software, particularly when you run up against some oddball relay or application.

And lastly, if this doesn't apply to you, then ignore it, but I've seen many a relay "tested" and left with incorrect settings (wrong file uploaded, etc.) or tested properly but the relay or its programming was incorrect for the application.  Testing of system protection equipment is a broad field, and some horrible mistakes can be made.

old field guy

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

I use the Megger MPRT which is very versatile but also pretty expensive.  Basic relays can be taken care of with an old Multi-Amp "76" set of an SR 51.  These rigs are tried and true.  My megger has had to be serviced several times in a couple of years.  You might be able to find this sort of thing on EBAY.

If you plan on testing complicated elements on SEL's, I think you ought to go with an MPRT or the Doble relay set.

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

Another vote for Programma, although Omicron's gear looked impressive when they demo'd it to us a couple of years ago.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

I have to say that after using OMICRON for years and then Doble for the past 2 weeks, OMICRON is far superior. Much better software.

If you are in the 5 amp CT market, it is Doble, Megger, OMICRON and SCM.  The Programma does not have enough current.

Also don't be fooled by a list of templates, especially when considering digital relays.  Every implementation of a digital relay requires a unique test plan that tests the unique settings.  When I test a relay I want to be sure that it operates as the protection scheme is designed, not how a template that changes the settings of the relay to facilitate testing does it.

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

Hi smallgreek,

I'n curious - does that remark relate to the Sverker or Freja set? The Sverker has generally been ok so far, but some relays are much more demanding of the test set than others.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

(OP)
Great feedback so far.  I have Omicorn and Megger both coming to do a demo.  

A little more info on what I will be using it for...  It will be 5A CT's.  It will be mainly SEL 351, 551, 387, 587 implementing settings that I have created.  I like using the I/O's a lot.

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

I prefer using the Manta 5000 - by Manta Test Systems.  It's about $75K or so I think but it's great.  Three phase V&I out, lots of inputs/outputs and can be programmed.  Shows the R/X diagram when testing distance elements.  I find it better than the Megger or Omicron equivalents but they are also good.

It's worth checking out their web site - http://www.mantatest.com/

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

2
I can understand testing elements on electromechanical relays, or when type testing a new numeric relay, but what, really, is the purpose of element testing of an in-service numeric relay?

As I see it, we need to move away from "relay" testing and begin to do "protection system" testing.  On the list of things that can go wrong, failure of the relay to calculate all the elements correctly is about the bottom of the list of what I'm worried about when it comes time to test a protection system.

One significant problem with these test systems is that when all is said and done, what was tested isn't what's in service.  I want to see testing done where the relay program is never touched during the testing.  Then every type of event the relay program is intended to respond to should be fed into the relay and the entire system checked.  Did the breaker open?  Did it reclose?  If current isn't removed in a timely fashion did a breaker failure trip happen?  If fault current starts up again as fast as the breaker closes do you get an SOTF trip?  Make the tests, look at the relay event reports, study the relay SER, know what happened and why, but don't change the relay settings.  It's bad enough to have to use secondary injection, but at least there are then easy ways of checking that the relay is seeing the actual system currents and voltages (metering in the relay) once the testing is completed.

If the relay settings are changed, there is no way of knowing if the protection system functions as intended once the testing is completed.

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

Hi All-

#1 - The Programma Freja has 3x15 A currents or 1x45A.  Not enough for many 50 elements, or close in fault simulations.

#2 - I would look for a test set that can deliver 6 currents as this is necessary to test a digital differential relay (assume delta / wye) - else you have to change the settings of the relay, which defeats the purpose of the test.

#3 - Routine tests of some kind are required by NERC.  I don't believe NERC specifies exactly how these are to be done, but I do believe it is in the future that the settings can not be changed.

#4 - For commissioning / acceptance tests, it is best to explore the relay a bit in order to get a feel for how the elements work / interact.  I have found countless errors during commissioning where the intended logic was not programmed properly, settings errors, etc.

#5 - Nearly all test sets offer the ability to play back a COMTRADE file.  The source can be EMTP/ATP and I believe some coordination software.  This is really the best way to test and most important, no settings are changed.  As David said, play the fault and see what the relay does.  It is also very efficient, as each fault is quick, thus a realistic series of tests can be performed in the time it takes to do element testing.

Again, relying on canned test templates really serves no purpose, as these mostly require remapping the relay logic.

Carefully designed (user created) templates that provide all the normal AC signals at appropriate magnitude / phase and frequency can be designed for pick up / timing and logic.  No setting changes required.  A good sequencer and ramping test module will provide this.  Multiple I/O on the test set for simulating inputs to the relay and measuring the outputs are required.

BTW - For what it is, the Programma SVERKER is a great manual test set for single phase relays and general commissioning work.

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

I notice no one else has mentioned the Manta.  Has anyone else used their equipment?  

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

(OP)
davidbeach:
  When testing, we have everything run through test switches.  This way we are testing the entire panel to ensure correct wiring as well as operation.  We also test all trip signals to breakers.  We don't want to trip the breaker a ton of times, so we test any outputs associated with trip and close to the breaker and then open the test switch and assure all necessary signals are going to the test switch.  I never mess with the programming on the relay during commission testing.  We will also trigger or send signals back on alarms from the transformer.
 

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

My experience is that it is during commissioning when you find errors in programming/settings.  I have had to change relay programming/settings before during commissioning, of course after taking the appropriate change control measures.  The engineers responsible for creating the settings sit in a cushy office at head office so it's up to field people to fix their mistakes.

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

Quote (marks1080):

The engineers responsible for creating the settings sit in a cushy office at head office so it's up to field people to fix their mistakes.
That is an attitude that never gets anything fixed.  There has to be a complete feed back loop so that the engineers doing the settings know what doesn't work in the field and can revise the settings to both "work" and accomplish the intended functions of the original program. I don't believe that the test personnel should be changing things willy-nilly in the field, but rather that the whole team should work together to solve the problem.

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

I said what I said with no attitude at all.  More often than not incorrect settings get released.  It is the fields responsibility (as laid out in our job description) to catch these.  Also, I did mention 'change control' which does imply that there is communication between both groups on this.  I am also a field engineer, not a maintenance or test technician.  It is my responsibility to question and test everything that I put into service.  If anything the head office engineers depend on people like me to ratify their work.  I also do not believe I implied that I would ever change protection settings 'willy-nilly'.    

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

Also, it should be mentioned that testing numerical relays is very important.  Do not always assume that they will work as some excel sheet tells you they should.  Aside from other reasons mentioned here you need to be aware that these relays can be loaded with multiple settings groups.  Say what you will about knowing what settings group should or shouldn't be loaded at anyone time but the things I've seen would make me want to test and test and test again.  

Bottom line:  Test all your relays.  Fully.  Completely.  

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

I'll second the Manta, it's been very good and we do a lot of SEL relays, we use the RTS Software, I don't do much relay testing, but I do use the Manta to verify installations and bench check relays and devices, like the fact I don't need a laptop to perform most of the functions.

I also liked the smaller Omicron 156 when I traveled a lot, was handy and very portable and did everything I asked of it.  Had some short coming our relay test guys didn't like but I never got the details.

Mike L.

Mike L

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

Hi,
Im with davidbeach:
As I see it, we need to move away from "relay" testing and begin to do "protection system" testing.

STAR David.

Best Regards.
Slava.

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

BTW.
Sverker760 or ISA T1000Plus. is best test-sets for the field, possible test lot of function, lapto is not needed.
 

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

Regarding testing the complete protection system, one can say that primary tests should be required on new installations.
We had an interesting problem, in a hydro upgrade, found out only in primary tests using as source, currenr from each 175MW hydro unit for confirming generator and transformer protections with short circuits placed at the 15KV and 500KV levels: The problem was that the ABB GPU and TPU digital relays used in the new upgrade would not operate on current only. For the relays to operate, PT voltage had to be present also, therefore PT voltage had to be injected from a secondary test set (about 30% voltage) so that the relay logic would operate correctly.

It can be that later versions of these relays operate differently, or that digital relays from other suppliers also operate differently.

Has anyone else had this experience with digital relays?

BTW I do not mean the aux supply was from the PTs. that was in fact, as usual standard in power installations, from the station battery.

rasevskii
 

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

I have recently been using Relay Engineering Services APTS 3ph test set and am very happy with the usability and interfaces. The sets do however need a laptop to drive them.

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

Quote (rasevskii):

For the relays to operate, PT voltage had to be present also, therefore PT voltage had to be injected from a secondary test
What sorts of protection functions don't work with no PT input?

I'd expect problems with impedance relaying functions, as both current and voltage parameters are needed to do the math. Older relays did have problems with close-in faults that would pull line voltages down to zero. But my understanding of newer equipment is that it 'phase locks' an internal clock to the PT inputs and uses that value during a fault so as to have a voltage reference to work with for a few cycles. Of course, the s/w will have to see good PT inputs for some time before the fault so the clock has something to sync with.

But I'd expect plain old overcurrent functions to work with nothing more than CT inputs.

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

I can understand a generator relay not doing much with out a VT input as differential and neutral overcurrent are about the only generator protections that don't require voltage. But a transformer relay really shouldn't care about voltage.  

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

My 50 cents about test sets:
We have FREJA 300 from about 6 years. As a hardware it is OK. The only problem we had was with 51N function test of one old electromechanical distance protection - power of the current output of FREJA was not sufficient. The only serious question is the software - it is not flexible enough and also communication with PC is sometimes not stable.
Speaking about 6 current outputs - new version FREJA306 has now 6x15 A outputs. Also Programma offers upgrade of FREJA 300 to 306.
We also have good experience with Omicron 256, with various kinds of software - starting from version 1.4 and up to 2.0. Unfortunately pricewise it is bit expensive for our company, so we use it mostly on projects where the main contractor (for us it is typically Siemens) deliver test set.
Good alternative at least here in Europe is ISA. Our colleagues use DRTS6 for last 5 years without any problems. But I don't know how ISA is presented in USA - with service and even with different power supply voltage.

If price is not the most important concern I would suggest Omicron CMC256 with IEC61850 option.

BTW, there are some very interesting Chinese units on the market recently. I am curious if somebody has practical experience with PONOVO test sets. They are packed with full ste of features like top models of CMC256 and 356, but it would be great if somebody here share his first had experience.

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
 

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

for PHovnanian:
The protection concerned was the TPU transformer overcurrent and differential protection. It would not operate during primary tests involving overcurrent at normal service connection and differential on a simulated fault connection at primary level. PT voltage had to be injected as said at about 30% voltage. BUT this was all done more than 7 years ago and I would have to dig out the detailed Primary Test Program that I wrote at that time.

The secondary testing and calibration was done by the client previously using his own equipment and factory procedures, I do not know how current functions were tested at that time and if PT voltage had to be also injected. That was not my business at the time.

regards rasevskii

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

Manta with Enoserv software and you will never look back.

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

I use the Omicron 356 for testing sel relays and others. I really enjoy using this unit. It does take a little getting used to, but with 6 currents at 32 amps and 4 potentials available it handles most situations well. I do like the overcurrent module, for directional elements on the sel relays you need to set the fault voltage lower then the prefault voltage for proper negitive sequence voltage. This is the only test set I've used that can do this test properly.  

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

plz check  ISA DRTS-6+  Model test set

it is cheaper than omicron and very user friendly.
this test set comes with 6 current and 4 voltage o/p.

optional :-
MAKE : KINGSINE       model :3065

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

315MVA, do you have practical experience with that Chinese test set? I am curious how reliable they are.

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
 

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

At work we have doble F6150 with enoserv rts software.  Love it!!

RE: Protective Relay Test Set/Equipment

HiJBlackEE

I have used the Omicron and Doble for many years whilst working at utilities. Omicron is certainly the better option in my opinion but is very pricey as is the Doble.

For myself, however, I have bought a much cheaper Chinese test set called the RT46 from Ponovo. Does an excellent job. Ponovo have later models now which include IEC61850 functionality as well. The literature is not too hot but the test set does everything I need it to do.

You can have a look at thier products:

http://www.relaytest.com/

Regards.

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