Kids these days...
Kids these days...
(OP)
I don't know what others have experienced lately, but it seems like a lot of fresh graduates looking for work just don't want to put in the effort to set themselves apart from their peers. In the past couple weeks we've had a few engineering graduates stop by our office to inquire about open positions. Of those few, we've had resumes filled with grammatical errors, people who come in with their moms, and job seekers dressed like they just came from the gym. Yesterday, we had a young grad stop by asking about work dressed in jeans and a sweatshirt wearing his hat backwards! To top it off, he was rude when we said didn't currently have any open positions but would keep his resume on file.
I would think that given the economic climate and lack of jobs for new graduates, there would be tremendous competition out there and people would be doing everything they could to carry themselves professionally and bring their 'A' game... I just don't see it.
While I admit I'm only 5 years out of college, I was wearing nice shirts with ties any time I approached a potential employer and made sure that my resume was flawless - and that was back when most grads had at least 2 or 3 job offers upon graduation!
I guess I'm just surprised at what I've seen in our area anyway. Are other people seeing much effort from the current generation of college graduates looking for work?
I would think that given the economic climate and lack of jobs for new graduates, there would be tremendous competition out there and people would be doing everything they could to carry themselves professionally and bring their 'A' game... I just don't see it.
While I admit I'm only 5 years out of college, I was wearing nice shirts with ties any time I approached a potential employer and made sure that my resume was flawless - and that was back when most grads had at least 2 or 3 job offers upon graduation!
I guess I'm just surprised at what I've seen in our area anyway. Are other people seeing much effort from the current generation of college graduates looking for work?





RE: Kids these days...
As usual, one should not consider a small, biased, sampling to be representative of the population.
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RE: Kids these days...
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RE: Kids these days...
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
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RE: Kids these days...
TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com
RE: Kids these days...
My firsthand interactions (personal and professional) with Gen Yer's has me believing they were never disciplined in any fashion by their parents, never told No, and never made to go above and beyond for themselves.
My mid-twenties niece, currently living with us, has dated some of the most useless, unmotivated, inept humans I've ever meet. She is a stunning college-educated girl, who I would think should have the pick of the litter, but alas, the litter is all runts apparently. We're in a major city too.
Maybe the same things were said about my generation, but I don't know.
IC
RE: Kids these days...
RE: Kids these days...
Chris
SolidWorks 09 SP5.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Kids these days...
Of course, all the hardworking, good kids don't get much press, they're too busy doing a good job at work.
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RE: Kids these days...
RE: Kids these days...
I will admit that my grammar is poor if not atrocious. I am sure I made mistakes in my resume but let's be honest many people have made the mistakes below?
-misused the Latin abbreviation "i.e.". "i.e." translated to English means "that is". Instead you use it to mean "for example"? But the Latin abbreviation for that is "e.g.".
- "My colleague and me agree" rather than my colleague and I agree
- "Do you agree with my colleague and I?" rather than colleague and me
- "Please contact myself" instead of please contact me
- "Irregardless" (there is no such word!), instead of regardless or irrespective
- "The data is conclusive" instead of the data are conclusive
These are all common grammatical (or should that be grammatic) errors, that I make on every post to engtips.
When my HR department starts to reject engineers because of grammatic (or should that be grammatical, now I'm really confused) I send off a few of their emails to a local editor friend of mine to do a check of their grammar. You would be surprised at some of the gems he sends back.
The point is; the day we started to select engineers based on these types of skills alone is the day engineers will start to forget what the end game is about. Sure you may say you need these for business skills ect. And yes you do, but the more important skill is the ability to learn and the want to learn.
I will also admit in all my years I never worn a tie or suit to work, I don't feel comfortable in this attire, when I'm not comfortable I'm not thinking about the right things.
Ok I have forgotten my point is but I'm sure someone will read this un-necessarily long post and have a guess at it.
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field
RE: Kids these days...
I see some of this in my kids, and I try to set them straight. I don't want them to learn about things like this the hard way. They were almost appalled when I explained that discrimination as a general term is acceptable. It is only certain types of discrimination that are illegal or morally indefensible.
Even emails with resumes should be polite with proper Englist without looking like texting. I find that kids today don't answer phones with hello and are in for a rude awakening when they get out into the real world.
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Capital crime
- "My colleague and me agree" rather than my colleague and I agree
Acceptable
- "Do you agree with my colleague and I?" rather than colleague and me
Acceptable
- "Please contact myself" instead of please contact me
Bit arsey, not a capital crime
- "Irregardless" (there is no such word!), instead of regardless or irrespective
Death of firstborn required
- "The data is conclusive" instead of the data are conclusive
Lost cause.
There are some cromulent new words around, but irregardless of that, clarity of communication is my priority, as such first person pronoun games don't bother I, myself.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Kids these days...
- "My colleague and me agree" rather than my colleague and I agree
Not acceptable...it's easy to check these things...say the sentence with each separately (neglecting tense)...
My colleague agree(s)...good
Me agree(s)...not good
I agree...good
so, My colleague and I agree
same with...
- "Do you agree with my colleague and I?"
Do you agree with my colleague?....good
Do you agree with I?....not good
Do you agree with me?...good
so, Do you agree with my colleague and me?
RE: Kids these days...
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Kids these days...
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RE: Kids these days...
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field
RE: Kids these days...
I am only 28 and having been brought up in India till age 21, I find that kids in the US have a lot more freedom to choose and do what they want. I am all for giving kids freedom of choice but it looks like they tend to exploit it. Parents are somehow happy to get the kids off their back. I think how kids behave and conduct themselves socially/professionally is a reflection of the values that they were taught.
I totally agree with
Kids these days live in the internet/email world. It's all about instant gratification. They don't realize that it takes hard work, patience, dedication and sacrifice to get to where they want to be. They cannot take failure and think problems can be solved by CTRL+ALT+DEL --> End Process. Life's lessons need to be learned the hard way.
RE: Kids these days...
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field
RE: Kids these days...
I recently opined on something very similar in a conversation with some friends
I'm somewhere in the middle on this. I think the whole "what's wrong with kids these days?" line of thinking has been around since the first ape who refused to throw feces at other apes offended the previous generation for disregarding tradition.
I've made it a point to learn as much as I can and be as informed as I can. I think it's important to be a well-rounded human being. But that is me.
I've met people significantly older than me who use abhorrent language and grammar. I've met kids much younger than me that inspire hope for the future. It comes down to personal choices.
I don't deny that the world is changing. Communication is changing (for the life of me, I can't understand the appeal of twitter). But I think it's too early to dismiss this generation. I've met a lot of kids who, although lacking in some aspects, have the right attitude and work ethic.
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Lots of people dissatisfied with their boss, the content of their job, their co-workers, their pay etc. etc.
They can see their parents and friends working 50 amd 60 hours a week and getting paid 40. When projects are done the people get shown the door.
May be these "kids" are smarter than we think.
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The rule I always remember when choosing between I or me is that I can never be used as the object of a preposition.
e.g. John and I are designing a retaining wall - ok, I is the subject of the sentence
Do you want to go on a site visit with John and me to see the reinforcing for the retaining wall we designed - me is appropriate here because John and me are objects of the preposition with.
I hear people at my office all the time say things like, "When you figure this out, let Bill and I know". It drives me crazy.
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Seems like every generation is always disappointed about those that follow, "Cain't unnerstan why Joe-Bob dunn't wanna stay and work the farm, like me and my paw afore me."
The only thing that's substantially different is that there are a whole bunch of different generations comparing notes about their "new" generation.
One would think that based on these types comments over the generations, we should have slipped completely backwards into the primordial slime and reverted to some lower form of animal, but we haven't, yet, so apparently, we aren't regressing as much as every generation thinks we have.
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SEIT,
you must love reading my posts and as much as pulling teeth.
IRstuff,
Me thinks you onto something there.
now everyone has missed the real test, is it grammatical or grammatic errors?
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field
RE: Kids these days...
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Kids these days...
These rules have been accepted and recognised as useful over the past 150 years or so, by your assertion, why do you predict their demise now?
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in what way is "me and Peg nicked off down the boozer and got blaggered on Spesh" any less clear than "Margaret and I walked to the local hotel and over-indulged in sherry" for the point in question?
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Kids these days...
The second follows the recognised rules and is therefore more widely understood.
I'm not judging which is 'better', just which follows the generally accepted rules.
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While some of these habits irk me, I personally welcome them because it makes it all the easier for those of us in the top class of our generation to separate ourselves through performance.
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Generation Y are the children of the baby boomers- the so-called "echo" generation.
These criticisms of youth are nothing new. There are good and bad kids in this group just like in all others. What's different this time around is that their parents are trying to sell us on the notion that we're all supposed to change to accomodate what they are, rather than vice versa or meeting somewhere in the middle.
We hire 'em as students and sift through the chaff to find the ones that work in our business culture. Haven't had a problem either recruiting or retaining them so far.
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Our society (North America, at least) sets the example that if you're a top executive, you make obscene amounts of money, and anyone else is expected to sacrifice everything, and be prepared to be fired at the drop of a hat.
Does anyone think that example encourages kids to work hard for the sake of the employer? Kids aren't stupid, they see their families, friends, neighbors, and they read the papers.
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When you have a boss like that, I don't fault anyone for putting in the 8 hours and putting the pencil down after your 8.
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...and yes, my grammer is always good in a real life professional setting. i just don't like using the shift key on message boards..lol (<---do you guys know what that means??)
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BTW I think both grammatic and grammatical are acceptable. When I face a choice like this I usually go with the shorter word unless one just feels more right.
And in conclusing over the next 40 years the kids these days will improve their interpersonal and grammatical skills until they will start to complain about the kids these days. And when the do we, if we are still around, can feel smug.
-Kirby
Kirby Wilkerson
Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.
RE: Kids these days...
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
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Erm, I believe you may be confusing me with someone else. I can barely spell grammar let alone apply it.
It was a lot better when we walked up hill both ways, in the snow, wind in our faces both ways... to our first interview.
At the same time, the behavior in the OP, or poorly worded Resumes don't ingratiate applicants with me, though I find some aspects of them less offensive than the all too typical resume that reads like something a marketing major pulled out of their fundament.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
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(2) Nonetheless, the steretypical Gen Y'er is really, really goddam annoying.
(3) However, it is their elders' choice whether to cater to them or not. If we don't cater to their need to be special, they won't get away with it. Before the Great Recession of Ought Seven, there were all kinds of articles written about how workplaces were needing to adapt to the "everyone is special" Gen. Y mentality and dole out a lot more head-pats. My bet is that's not really the case any more. They'll learn.
(4) Every dialect has its function. There are prestige dialects and nonprestige dialects, and each can be correct or incorrect, depending on the social situation. A white-collar or technical work situation demands the prestige dialect in written communication and to a lesser extent in spoken communication. How you speak to your boss while delivering a presentation to a group may not be how you speak to your boss one-on-one in the boss's office, which in turn may not be how you speak to your boss in the pub for an after-work happy hour with the team. How you write in a report for outside consumption may not be how you write in an external email, which may not be how you write in an internal email. A resume is assumed to be "best foot forward", and if someone can't manage to get that right, how can we assume they'd put the right level of care into, say, a writeup for a client--or, worse, a potential client? Not being able to match the dialect to the situation is itself a social/professional failing.
(5) Clothing and other matters of appearance are similarly dialectal.
Hg
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RE: Kids these days...
Seriously, though, we've got about a dozen 20-somethings and early 30-somethings, male and female, at work and all are quite good at engineering, communicating, dressing themselves, etc.
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I still hold out hope for the kids entering college. As a whole they are pretty much house-broken and some even wash. After a few rejections they will adopt more conventional writing styles and will be given a chance to prove their worth.
I just don't get the piercings, though. Maybe I'm getting old.
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I guess I shouldn't generalize the current generation of grads as a whole - I too am aware that there are plenty of hard working and competent young engineers out there. Heck, at 30 years old I'm still considered a kid by a lot of my 50 something co-workers. I'm also aware that things change over time as new generations enter the workplace.
That being said, I guess I was just kind of shocked at how many young job seekers I've seen in my locale that don't appear to put in the same effort as I know most of my peers did just 5 years ago in a much better job market.
Regarding (in regards to??) grammar, I don't claim to be an expert by any means! I do completely agree with HgTx though, that your resume should be very well polished as it represents your best foot forward. Some of the errors I've seen are pretty basic low-level things, like misspelling the word 'University'. If you don't put the effort into polishing your own resume, how can your prospective employer expect you to put in the effort required to polish your skills as an engineer with their company?
Thanks all for your input, it has been interesting reading your responses!
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I understood, though maybe didn't appreciate, sagging baggy pants.
However, skin tight jeans that still sag so far they show the slit in your tighty whities, I just don't get it.
Oh, and this from a child of the late 70's which depending on whose definition your use puts me at the end of x or beginning of y.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
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Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
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When I titled the thread "Kids these days", it was kind of tongue in cheek as I'm well aware I'm not much older than a lot of these new grads... just seems like a lot has changed even from my experience only 5 years ago.
I probably sound like one of those old guys complaining the 'younguns' nowadays though. I did just have a kid, but I hope I'm not sounding like my parents just yet...
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Brain cells generally kick in at about 25 for blokes, if you are lucky.
Do these young people a favour and tell them straight. You may need to carefully craft your words so that they dont sue for discrimination.
I learnt a lesson at college where the President of the Socialist Club was not supported by their board as a candidate for the students union presidency. He appeared the next day in a three piece suit and a tie representing a new party with himself as the President. Gone were the scruffy jeans, beard, unkempt hair and general grubby demeanor. He wanted more so like a chameleon changed his appearance.
Necessity is the mother of invention.
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I may be in my twenties, but I welcome the rudeness, backwards hats, idiotic "text talk", and entitlement attitude. You may see ignorant youth, but I see a competitive advantage and job security.
After all, even fool's gold looks priceless when you set it next to a turd.
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My hat's off to you both! It's particulary valuable in troubled economic times. If you're sitting around the table discussing who to keep and who to let go, the clock-watchers who spell the same word three different ways in one paragraph just kind of seem to be standing up waving bright red "cut here" banners.
Those of us seated at our desks still working don't come into focus very quickly.
Goober Dave
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Otherwise that's just sad.
Those young hipsters riding their skateboards and using the internet, who do they think they are?
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Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP3.1
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
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Just my two cents
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Any kid who shows up with their mom for an interview or to negotiate salary will be shown the door, whether either of tehm is "hot" or not!
ryderKID: you could be describing half of my classmates a couple decades ago. Fortunately we attended a co-op uni where work experience during education was mandatory. The sad thing is, many in academia no longer see engineering school as training to become an engineer. Even sadder, they're right in a sense, since 2/3 of engineering grads here do NOT do engineering for a living.
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Keep an open mind for some of us younger, soon-to-be (hopefully) engineering professionals!
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I will also admit I would rather hire a person that only studied for 8 hrs a day and got a degree without cheating, compared to someone that studied 14hrs a day and got the same degree.
As for dress sense, I think this is too subjective to be realistically evaluated. From my experience, what some people this is formal, to others it is causal. Having an interview person (60 yr olf man) turn up naked when I was managing a farm, I am happy to have cloths on for a start, in a perfect world I would like them to have shown some effort look nice (even if this is only in their opinion).
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field
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I think someone who might think that a teeshirt and cutoffs is "formal" demonstrates enough lack of sense to disqualify him from any further consideration; one can only hope that he was trying to make some sort of statement, as opposed to being a complete idiot.
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Yes the man was drunk, he came back the next day, turns out it was his bucks night and his mates had dropped him off for the interview. Was a really good worker,didn't mind doing the hard yards.
I would agree with you about the dress standard if I had an advertisement that stated that the dress sense for the interview was formal. However the subjectiveness of attire for an interview is up to the individual. There is no dress code for an interview, you could ask 50 people some would say formal some say a formal casual, some people recommend you match the office standard! I personally would look past the resume formatting and the dress of the person, treating them only as nice colour paper on the book that I'm trying to read from this person, sure if the paper is not a nice colour I may not try as hard to read the book. The book I am interested in qualifications, verbal communication, personality and aims for the future in work, knowhow, common sense. This could also be a reflection of my area, a few guys come off the farms around here when they finish uni, really bright (and have some knowhow) but are not in the know for the interview, and they are generally dressed in jeans and a white shirt, resume normally written by hand ect. I however find them to be great engineers.
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field
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If someone came in like that, I'd definitely question his ability to make sound engineering judgements.
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An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field
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rowingengineer,
I might disagree with wanting to higher someone who needed to study less. I think of myself as a pretty smart cookie, but I can tend to be lazy. I've been consistently beaten by people I felt were less intelligent then me, but worked harder. If someone is willing to study 14 hours a day to meet the standard that's someone I want to hire. It takes more dedication and that dedication comes from passion. This passion is something that has only come to me later in life. I'm just now making up for a misspent youth.
-Kirby
Kirby Wilkerson
Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.
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I would agree with dedication trumps talent, but too often I see dedication to studying not dedication to engineering, these are two different mind sets.
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field
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RE: Kids these days...
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
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Many great inventions in history have been the result of "applied laziness"- a desire to find a way to avoid expending effort on a tiresome task. This is as opposed to abject laziness- those folks avoid hard work by not doing any at all.
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But I would tend not to take an appicant seriously should he come to an interview in a tshirt. Now if he was dressed like that to drop off a resume and ended up with an interview, give him some slack.
Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net
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I've also never failed to land an offer after interviewing.
Dressing up for an interview never sends a bad message. Dressing down is a risk. Maybe you have the dynamic personality and talent to carry it off and make it into a great plus. Maybe the office you're going to will regard that as a welcome relief. But there is some obvious downside as well. There really isn't any downside to overdressing.
As an engineer, I have done this risk analysis myself, and if the person I'm looking at can't make this sort of evaluation on risk/reward, they are going to be working uphill. Manufacturing is plenty risky when you play it safe all the time - why should I add a loose cannon to my mix?
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What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
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On the subject of dress, I was asked to interview one fairly recent hire where I work now. The guy came in wearing jeans and a wrinkled shirt. Throughout the whole interview process I kept thinking how disrespectful that was and I was offended. Our department head apparently didn't see things that way and hired him anyway.
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An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field
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He seems to be competent, but my interaction with him so far has been quite minimal. I typically quiz the applicants by asking questions about a subject on their resume that I know something about. I then will dig deeper and present them with a design problem and ask how they would approach the design. I even tell them that there is no right or wrong answer, that I just want to see how they approach the problem. In one instance when I did this and wouldn't give up on it, the candidate actually admitted that he had no experience in this area and that the recruiter made him put it on his resume.
The company has since tried to hire another engineer for a different position. So far they haven't been able to find a qualified applicant, or at least one that doesn't need relocation which they are unwilling to offer.
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I still hold with my dedication over intelligence. Note I do not say talent. Talent comes from practice, practice comes from dedication. A smart guy may be able to get that talented with less work. But a dumb dedicated guy will get that talented as well. So I do not say dedication trumps talent as i feel dedication creates talent. I might say that dedication could trump intelligence. But I admit that the greatest people in any field, from art to aerospace are both dedicated and intelligent.
-Kirby
Kirby Wilkerson
Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.
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Lord Kelvin [PLA, 1883-05-03]
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In my take on the metaphor, the hare has intelligence, but little dedication and the tortise has dedication but little intelligence. Talent then becomes the finish line, which they will both get to, though not at the same time.
What was the original question? Oh, yeah kids these days suck. I think I've wandered off topic a bit.
-Kirby
Kirby Wilkerson
Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.