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Kids these days...
14

Kids these days...

Kids these days...

(OP)
I don't know what others have experienced lately, but it seems like a lot of fresh graduates looking for work just don't want to put in the effort to set themselves apart from their peers.  In the past couple weeks we've had a few engineering graduates stop by our office to inquire about open positions.  Of those few, we've had resumes filled with grammatical errors, people who come in with their moms, and job seekers dressed like they just came from the gym.  Yesterday, we had a young grad stop by asking about work dressed in jeans and a sweatshirt wearing his hat backwards!  To top it off, he was rude when we said didn't currently have any open positions but would keep his resume on file.

I would think that given the economic climate and lack of jobs for new graduates, there would be tremendous competition out there and people would be doing everything they could to carry themselves professionally and bring their 'A' game... I just don't see it.

While I admit I'm only 5 years out of college, I was wearing nice shirts with ties any time I approached a potential employer and made sure that my resume was flawless - and that was back when most grads had at least 2 or 3 job offers upon graduation!

I guess I'm just surprised at what I've seen in our area anyway.  Are other people seeing much effort from the current generation of college graduates looking for work?

 

RE: Kids these days...

2
Or, perhaps, that's a good reason why these guys are sans job winky smile

As usual, one should not consider a small, biased, sampling to be representative of the population.

TTFN

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RE: Kids these days...

You should have asked him what kind of surf board he was riding last week pipe  

peace
Fe

RE: Kids these days...

More anecdotal evidence, we have a new grad that had been commuting ~1.5hrs, and usually was in the office by 9:30.  I thought that was bad, but we also have an unofficial "flex time" and he does stay late to make-up his 8hrs.  He now lives 5mins away, but still can't get here before 9am.  It's just a tad irksome.  We have another that takes Casual Fridays to a wholly different level, looking as though he belongs in recent music videos.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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RE: Kids these days...

It scares me to think that these same young-people-with-no-clue will be making our end-of-life decisions for us when we are in nursing homes.  I keep telling my wife I'm gonna take up skydiving or shark wrasslin' after I retire.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com

RE: Kids these days...

Apologies for the rant and generalizations, but this hits home for me too.....

My firsthand interactions (personal and professional) with Gen Yer's has me believing they were never disciplined in any fashion by their parents, never told No, and never made to go above and beyond for themselves.  

My mid-twenties niece, currently living with us, has dated some of the most useless, unmotivated, inept humans I've ever meet.  She is a stunning college-educated girl, who I would think should have the pick of the litter, but alas, the litter is all runts apparently.  We're in a major city too.

Maybe the same things were said about my generation, but I don't know.

IC   

RE: Kids these days...

There's hope. My daughter and her friends graduated from high school last year. There are some smart, hard working courteous kids in that group.  

RE: Kids these days...

To me, we lived through the "computer age", now it seems we are in the "lazy age".

Chris
SolidWorks 09 SP5.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Kids these days...

Your niece like many women may be particularly attracted to bad boys...

Of course, all the hardworking, good kids don't get much press, they're too busy doing a good job at work.

TTFN

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RE: Kids these days...

It's too bad nobody seemed to notice this defect when it was fixable.  I'm just glad that I'm still flawless.

RE: Kids these days...

How many people really understand the grammar world (excluding the big boys from the Engineering Language/Grammar Skills aka hgTX, kenat, zdas04 et al)
I will admit that my grammar is poor if not atrocious. I am sure I made mistakes in my resume but let's be honest many people have made the mistakes below?
 
-misused the Latin abbreviation "i.e.". "i.e." translated to English means "that is". Instead you use it to mean "for example"? But the Latin abbreviation for that is "e.g.".
- "My colleague and me agree" rather than my colleague and I agree
- "Do you agree with my colleague and I?" rather than colleague and me
- "Please contact myself" instead of please contact me
- "Irregardless" (there is no such word!), instead of regardless or irrespective
- "The data is conclusive" instead of the data are conclusive

These are all common grammatical (or should that be grammatic) errors, that I make on every post to engtips.
When my HR department starts to reject engineers because of grammatic (or should that be grammatical, now I'm really confused) I send off a few of their emails to a local editor friend of mine to do a check of their grammar. You would be surprised at some of the gems he sends back.

The point is; the day we started to select engineers based on these types of skills alone is the day engineers will start to forget what the end game is about. Sure you may say you need these for business skills ect. And yes you do, but the more important skill is the ability to learn and the want to learn.

I will also admit in all my years I never worn a tie or suit to work, I don't feel comfortable in this attire, when I'm not comfortable I'm not thinking about the right things.

Ok I have forgotten my point is but I'm sure someone will read this un-necessarily long post and have a guess at it.
 

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

RE: Kids these days...

In my opinion, kids are taught too much about being themselves.  Anything that you use to make a decision between 2 people is discrimination.  Personality traits such as clothes and manners should not matter because it should be about one's qualifications.  They don't always realize that when someone is hired, the whole person is hired.  The prospective employee must fit in, that is, wear a tie, comb your hair, and say "yes, sir".

I see some of this in my kids, and I try to set them straight.  I don't want them to learn about things like this the hard way.  They were almost appalled when I explained that discrimination as a general term is acceptable.  It is only certain types of discrimination that are illegal or morally indefensible.

Even emails with resumes should be polite with proper Englist without looking like texting.  I find that kids today don't answer phones with hello and are in for a rude awakening when they get out into the real world.

RE: Kids these days...

-misused the Latin abbreviation "i.e.". "i.e." translated to English means "that is". Instead you use it to mean "for example"? But the Latin abbreviation for that is "e.g.".

Capital crime

- "My colleague and me agree" rather than my colleague and I agree

Acceptable

- "Do you agree with my colleague and I?" rather than colleague and me

Acceptable

- "Please contact myself" instead of please contact me

Bit arsey, not a capital crime

- "Irregardless" (there is no such word!), instead of regardless or irrespective

Death of firstborn required

- "The data is conclusive" instead of the data are conclusive

Lost cause.


There are some cromulent new words around, but irregardless of that, clarity of communication is my priority, as such first person pronoun games don't bother I, myself.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Kids these days...

Hey Greg...hope you weren't too attached to that firstborn.

- "My colleague and me agree" rather than my colleague and I agree

Not acceptable...it's easy to check these things...say the sentence with each separately (neglecting tense)...

My colleague agree(s)...good
Me agree(s)...not good
I agree...good

so, My colleague and I agree

same with...
- "Do you agree with my colleague and I?"

Do you agree with my colleague?....good
Do you agree with I?....not good
Do you agree with me?...good

so, Do you agree with my colleague and me?

 

RE: Kids these days...

I've always just assumed that it's all about *me*.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Kids these days...

Hey SNORGY...sounds like my wife.

RE: Kids these days...

Arn't they all?

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

RE: Kids these days...

Bad grammar is just a turn off. Kids live in the age of twitter/text messages and everything has to be instant. For example, I hate when people use faux words like "ur", "txs", "thx", "l8r", "dunno" in their written communication.

I am only 28 and having been brought up in India till age 21, I find that kids in the US have a lot more freedom to choose and do what they want. I am all for giving kids freedom of choice but it looks like they tend to exploit it. Parents are somehow happy to get the kids off their back. I think how kids behave and conduct themselves socially/professionally is a reflection of the values that they were taught.

I totally agree with

Quote:

My firsthand interactions (personal and professional) with Gen Yer's has me believing they were never disciplined in any fashion by their parents, never told No, and never made to go above and beyond for themselves.

Kids these days live in the internet/email world. It's all about instant gratification. They don't realize that it takes hard work, patience, dedication and sacrifice to get to where they want to be. They cannot take failure and think problems can be solved by CTRL+ALT+DEL --> End Process. Life's lessons need to be learned the hard way.

RE: Kids these days...

hate to be the one to point this out but if you are 28 your gen Y'er.

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

RE: Kids these days...

Interesting thread..  

I recently opined on something very similar in a conversation with some friends

I'm somewhere in the middle on this. I think the whole "what's wrong with kids these days?" line of thinking has been around since the first ape who refused to throw feces at other apes offended the previous generation for disregarding tradition.

I've made it a point to learn as much as I can and be as informed as I can. I think it's important to be a well-rounded human being. But that is me.

I've met people significantly older than me who use abhorrent language and grammar. I've met kids much younger than me that inspire hope for the future. It comes down to personal choices.

I don't deny that the world is changing. Communication is changing (for the life of me, I can't understand the appeal of twitter). But I think it's too early to dismiss this generation. I've met a lot of kids who, although lacking in some aspects, have the right attitude and work ethic.

RE: Kids these days...

It may be that those kids read some of the groups in this forum and don't really want a job in engineering. Lots of discontent expressed in some of the groups.
Lots of people dissatisfied with their boss, the content of their job, their co-workers, their pay  etc. etc.
They can see their parents and friends working 50 amd 60 hours a week and getting paid 40. When projects are done the people get shown the door.
May be these "kids" are smarter than we think.   

RE: Kids these days...

Well put FRV. There is nothing new under the sun.

RE: Kids these days...

I'm a little late to the I/me discussin, but........

The rule I always remember when choosing between I or me is that I can never be used as the object of a preposition.  
e.g. John and I are designing a retaining wall - ok, I is the subject of the sentence

Do you want to go on a site visit with John and me to see the reinforcing for the retaining wall we designed - me is appropriate here because John and me are objects of the preposition with.

I hear people at my office all the time say things like, "When you figure this out, let Bill and I know".  It drives me crazy.

RE: Kids these days...

Speaking as not a GenY, X, or whatever, only as a tail-end baby boomer, this is a REALLY FUNNY thread.  Do most of you realize that the EXACT same conversations took place when you guys graduated from college?  Similar comments about "pot-smoking dopeheads" from 40 yrs ago ring any bells?

Seems like every generation is always disappointed about those that follow, "Cain't unnerstan why Joe-Bob dunn't wanna stay and work the farm, like me and my paw afore me."

The only thing that's substantially different is that there are a whole bunch of different generations comparing notes about their "new" generation.

One would think that based on these types comments over the generations, we should have slipped completely backwards into the primordial slime and reverted to some lower form of animal, but we haven't, yet, so apparently, we aren't regressing as much as every generation thinks we have.

TTFN

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RE: Kids these days...

What really stands out for me about these young kids is that even if they do show up two hours late, they get more work done by lunch than some who have been coasting since 1990.
 

RE: Kids these days...

you can do anyhitng fast if you forgo checking.

SEIT,
you must love reading my posts and as much as pulling teeth.

IRstuff,
Me thinks you onto something there.


now everyone has missed the real test, is it grammatical or grammatic errors?

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

RE: Kids these days...

You do realise a lot of these grammatical rules were invented in the 1800s in an attempt to make English more closely resemble Latin? If you think that is a good idea, fine, but frankly it is fighting a losing battle, English is a Creole, you are trying to put a Roll Royce hood ornament on a Chevy.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Kids these days...

Come on Greg, it's more than just a good idea.

These rules have been accepted and recognised as useful over the past 150 years or so, by your assertion, why do you predict their demise now?

RE: Kids these days...

In what way is it useful? It was an attempt to apply a veneer of romance language respectability to a hodge-podge of Celtic, low German and Scandinavian with a few French loan words thrown in.

in what way is "me and Peg nicked off down the boozer and got blaggered on Spesh" any less clear than "Margaret and I walked to the local hotel and over-indulged in sherry" for the point in question?
 

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies  http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Kids these days...

The first is only clear to those in the know.
The second follows the recognised rules and is therefore more widely understood.

I'm not judging which is 'better', just which follows the generally accepted rules.

RE: Kids these days...

2
I'm a member of Generation Y and I'm certainly not impressed with the large majority of my peers.  I don't see many who take a great deal of pride in their work.  Also, a lot of them have this annoying strict work schedule mentality and jet out the door the minute they have technically made 8 hours, regardless of whether there was something that need to be finished up that day. Furthermore, the technical writing skills of my generation leave a lot to be desired.

While some of these habits irk me, I personally welcome them because it makes it all the easier for those of us in the top class of our generation to separate ourselves through performance.   

RE: Kids these days...

IRStuff, the tail end of the baby boom (birth dates from about 1961 to about 1967, which actually include some of the highest birth population years OF the baby boom in North America) and beyond that into the "baby bust" years (to about 1981), is what people call Generation X.

Generation Y are the children of the baby boomers- the so-called "echo" generation.

These criticisms of youth are nothing new.  There are good and bad kids in this group just like in all others.  What's different this time around is that their parents are trying to sell us on the notion that we're all supposed to change to accomodate what they are, rather than vice versa or meeting somewhere in the middle.

We hire 'em as students and sift through the chaff to find the ones that work in our business culture.  Haven't had a problem either recruiting or retaining them so far.     

RE: Kids these days...

I think that a fair abmount of the '8 hours no more' mentality comes from kids who see their parents slaving away, doing 50 and 60 hour weeks, missing family events, only to be cut loose the minute the economy stutters, or the project is finished.

Our society (North America, at least) sets the example that if you're a top executive, you make obscene amounts of money, and anyone else is expected to sacrifice everything, and be prepared to be fired at the drop of a hat.

Does anyone think that example encourages kids to work hard for the sake of the employer?  Kids aren't stupid, they see their families, friends, neighbors, and they read the papers.

RE: Kids these days...

About 30 years ago, at my first engineering job, 6 months into the job, my boss took me aside and "chewed" me out for coming in 5-10 minutes late (although I was making up the time).  Started to become a habit, but just a discussion would have worked.  So I started coming in 5-10 minutes early, and walking out after 8 hours.

When you have a boss like that, I don't fault anyone for putting in the 8 hours and putting the pencil down after your 8.

RE: Kids these days...

come on guys, be realistic.  i'm 31 and now and a completely different person now compared to when i was 23.  i look back and can't believe some of the stuff i did or was interested in.  people mature over time.  having said that, it is quite surprising that those "kids" did turn up at the office looking for work with that presentation.  not even i would have done that back in the day.  you should feel lucky the resumes weren't filled with the typical "brb", "ttyl", "lol" and "wtf" that high school teachers are now apparently seeing in assignments these kids are submitting.

...and yes, my grammer is always good in a real life professional setting.  i just don't like using the shift key on message boards..lol (<---do you guys know what that means??)

RE: Kids these days...

I think when we dialog about weather language should be descriptive or proscriptive it is very impactful, but I don't know witch forums it would be better in.  

BTW I think both grammatic and grammatical are acceptable.  When I face a choice like this I usually go with the shorter word unless one just feels more right.

And in conclusing over the next 40 years the kids these days will improve their interpersonal and grammatical skills until they will start to complain about the kids these days.  And when the do we, if we are still around, can feel smug.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

RE: Kids these days...

When I hear OP's complaint, I think of how we Gen Xers have change the paradigm of our company culture.  We brought in the dress down Fridays (well now the dress down all week unless there is a meeting with a customer), 9/80, the concept of work/life balance, diversity among the work force, work from home, and open door policy.  I remember when I first started working where I had to where a tie, white shirt, and dress pants.  And, even had to keep a business dress jacket in the office, because when you met with your manger or anybody higher, it was an unwritten rule to where your business dress jacket.  Now we are in sneaks, jeans, and a nice polo shirt. And, we stay dress like this even to see the director.  I remember back then that the Gen Xers where a bunch of lazy, lax, and pompous yuppies and now we are managers and principle engineers.  I wonder what the next generation will change, maybe dress down interviews.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Kids these days...

Quote:

How many people really understand the grammar world (excluding the big boys from the Engineering Language/Grammar Skills aka hgTX, kenat, zdas04 et al)

Erm, I believe you may be confusing me with someone else.  I can barely spell grammar let alone apply it.

It was a lot better when we walked up hill both ways, in the snow, wind in our faces both ways... to our first interview.

At the same time, the behavior in the OP, or poorly worded Resumes don't ingratiate applicants with me, though I find some aspects of them less offensive than the all too typical resume that reads like something a marketing major pulled out of their fundament.

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RE: Kids these days...

(1)  Kids These Days will never be as good as We Were In Our Day.

(2)  Nonetheless, the steretypical Gen Y'er is really, really goddam annoying.  

(3)  However, it is their elders' choice whether to cater to them or not.  If we don't cater to their need to be special, they won't get away with it.  Before the Great Recession of Ought Seven, there were all kinds of articles written about how workplaces were needing to adapt to the "everyone is special" Gen. Y mentality and dole out a lot more head-pats.  My bet is that's not really the case any more.  They'll learn.

(4)  Every dialect has its function.  There are prestige dialects and nonprestige dialects, and each can be correct or incorrect, depending on the social situation.  A white-collar or technical work situation demands the prestige dialect in written communication and to a lesser extent in spoken communication.  How you speak to your boss while delivering a presentation to a group may not be how you speak to your boss one-on-one in the boss's office, which in turn may not be how you speak to your boss in the pub for an after-work happy hour with the team.  How you write in a report for outside consumption may not be how you write in an external email, which may not be how you write in an internal email.  A resume is assumed to be "best foot forward", and if someone can't manage to get that right, how can we assume they'd put the right level of care into, say, a writeup for a client--or, worse, a potential client?  Not being able to match the dialect to the situation is itself a social/professional failing.

(5)  Clothing and other matters of appearance are similarly dialectal.

Hg

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RE: Kids these days...

I must be living in Lake Woebegone, where all the GenYs are above average winky smile  


Seriously, though, we've got about a dozen 20-somethings and early 30-somethings, male and female, at work and all are quite good at engineering, communicating, dressing themselves, etc.

TTFN

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RE: Kids these days...

As one on the leading edge of Generation-X, I've been pushing Baby Boomers to get out of my way my entire career. As long as they are there it is hard to advance.

I still hold out hope for the kids entering college. As a whole they are pretty much house-broken and some even wash. After a few rejections they will adopt more conventional writing styles and will be given a chance to prove their worth.

I just don't get the piercings, though. Maybe I'm getting old.

RE: Kids these days...

(OP)
OP here.... I see there is quite a bit of opinion out there on this one!

I guess I shouldn't generalize the current generation of grads as a whole - I too am aware that there are plenty of hard working and competent young engineers out there.  Heck, at 30 years old I'm still considered a kid by a lot of my 50 something co-workers.  I'm also aware that things change over time as new generations enter the workplace.

That being said, I guess I was just kind of shocked at how many young job seekers I've seen in my locale that don't appear to put in the same effort as I know most of my peers did just 5 years ago in a much better job market.

Regarding (in regards to??) grammar, I don't claim to be an expert by any means!  I do completely agree with HgTx though, that your resume should be very well polished as it represents your best foot forward.  Some of the errors I've seen are pretty basic low-level things, like misspelling the word 'University'.  If you don't put the effort into polishing your own resume, how can your prospective employer expect you to put in the effort required to polish your skills as an engineer with their company?

Thanks all for your input, it has been interesting reading your responses!

RE: Kids these days...

Piercings, it's the tight sagging pants that get me.

I understood, though maybe didn't appreciate, sagging baggy pants.

However, skin tight jeans that still sag so far they show the slit in your tighty whities, I just don't get it.

Oh, and this from a child of the late 70's which depending on whose definition your use puts me at the end of x or beginning of y.

 

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RE: Kids these days...

The OP is 30 something?? Man I thought you were 65 or something.  You must have had a straight lace life to have issues like this. :+)  I can sum up my teens thru twenty something to a cross of Animal House and Saturday Night Fever.  A lot of beers, girls, and clubbing. My brother, loosen up ;+), you feelin me!  

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Kids these days...

(OP)
Not to worry my friend - I killed my fair share of brain cells back in college at WSU... go Cougs!  It took the threat of being booted from university and academic probation for me to realize that homework took priority over the bar - and even then it was tough!

When I titled the thread "Kids these days", it was kind of tongue in cheek as I'm well aware I'm not much older than a lot of these new grads... just seems like a lot has changed even from my experience only 5 years ago.

I probably sound like one of those old guys complaining the 'younguns' nowadays though.  I did just have a kid, but I hope I'm not sounding like my parents just yet...

 

RE: Kids these days...

cessna98j,

Brain cells generally kick in at about 25 for blokes, if you are lucky.

Do these young people a favour and tell them straight. You may need to carefully craft your words so that they dont sue for discrimination.

I learnt a lesson at college where the President of the Socialist Club was not supported by their board as a candidate for the students union presidency. He appeared the next day in a three piece suit and a tie representing a new party with himself as the President. Gone were the scruffy jeans, beard, unkempt hair and general grubby demeanor. He wanted more so like a chameleon changed his appearance.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

RE: Kids these days...

2
Abusementpark hit the nail squarely on the head for me.


I may be in my twenties, but I welcome the rudeness, backwards hats, idiotic "text talk", and entitlement attitude.  You may see ignorant youth, but I see a competitive advantage and job security.


After all, even fool's gold looks priceless when you set it next to a turd. winky smile

RE: Kids these days...

Mr168 and Abusementpark,

My hat's off to you both! It's particulary valuable in troubled economic times. If you're sitting around the table discussing who to keep and who to let go, the clock-watchers who spell the same word three different ways in one paragraph just kind of seem to be standing up waving bright red "cut here" banners.

Those of us seated at our desks still working don't come into focus very quickly.

Goober Dave

RE: Kids these days...

I find that it's often the high-priced help that gets cut first.

RE: Kids these days...

why do more than 8 hrs if you don't have to???

RE: Kids these days...

Not everyone shares the same view of "professionalism".   The most incompetant civil engineer here where I live, and verified by interviewers after I left the brief stint,  are the best dressed engineers in town.  The best job I've ever had I showed up in jeans... but unlike the other this guy took me out  to lunch to get to know me.  Dress is purely a personal thing.  Is say this young chap is ahead of that game;)

RE: Kids these days...

If sombody came in with their Mom I can only assume she was a babe.

Otherwise that's just sad.

Those young hipsters riding their skateboards and using the internet, who do they think they are?

RE: Kids these days...

Considering the subject of this thread, I'm willing to be that quite a few Gen Y types would take DRWeig's comment, 'My hat's off to you both!', to suggest he was wearing more than one hat!

RE: Kids these days...

Hi friends, I wanted to take a moment to respond (as I am a 21 year-old Mechanical undergraduate still). I couldn't agree more with all the observations that today's young people don't exhibit strong work ethics. Many students at my school do the absolute minimum to get by in classes, and often resort to cheating if their time management weren't planned well. I would like to think I'm a pretty honest and hard working guy, I've been covered in sweat and grease most of my life and have paid for everything I own. That said, perhaps I'm a little biased when it bothers me that "today's talent" rolls up to work late in their daddy's BMW and doesn't have the slightest clue how to turn a wrench or perform basic calculations becuase they skipped that day of class. In my opinion today's idea of a college education has fallen short of preparing a person for an engineering career.

Just my two cents

RE: Kids these days...

We run a strictly casual office, but I still want interview candidates to come in dressed reasonably formally.  That's just basic respect and decorum.  Call me old-fashioned if you like, but it's no different than checking your resume for spelling and grammatical errors- you want to put your best foot forward.

Any kid who shows up with their mom for an interview or to negotiate salary will be shown the door, whether either of tehm is "hot" or not!

ryderKID:  you could be describing half of my classmates a couple decades ago.  Fortunately we attended a co-op uni where work experience during education was mandatory.  The sad thing is, many in academia no longer see engineering school as training to become an engineer.  Even sadder, they're right in a sense, since 2/3 of engineering grads here do NOT do engineering for a living.   

RE: Kids these days...

I am currently completing my co-op for mechanical engineering, and am obviously in my twenties (twenty to be exact). Although I do agree with most of the points made in this thread, it is best not to label us all this way. When i deliver resumes I dress well; not a full suit with a tie or anything, but I wear slacks, dress shoes and a nice polo. For interviews I wear suit attire and then from then on in i comply with the dress code or style of the company. Also, in terms of resume and cover letter writing, it is not that difficult, there are just a few bad apples out there.

Keep an open mind for some of us younger, soon-to-be (hopefully) engineering professionals!

RE: Kids these days...

Read my other posts- I'm not labelling anybody.

RE: Kids these days...

I'm sorry to say but those who think cheating or doing minimal effort to get by in a uni (any) degree is a NEW thing, IT IS NOT. The old saying "p's get degree's" wasn't invented in the last century, but probably sometime during the first year of the first intake of university students at the first university.

I will also admit I would rather hire a person that only studied for 8 hrs a day and got a degree without cheating, compared to someone that studied 14hrs a day and got the same degree.

As for dress sense, I think this is too subjective to be realistically evaluated. From my experience, what some people this is formal, to others it is causal. Having an interview person (60 yr olf man) turn up naked when I was managing a farm, I am happy to have cloths on for a start, in a perfect world I would like them to have shown some effort look nice (even if this is only in their opinion).  

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

RE: Kids these days...

By that argument, the clean naked man made some effort to look nicer than his normal, dirty, naked man look...

I think someone who might think that a teeshirt and cutoffs is "formal" demonstrates enough lack of sense to disqualify him from any further consideration; one can only hope that he was trying to make some sort of statement, as opposed to being a complete idiot.

TTFN

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RE: Kids these days...

IRstuff,
Yes the man was drunk, he came back the next day, turns out it was his bucks night and his mates had dropped him off for the interview. Was a really good worker,didn't mind doing the hard yards.

I would agree with you about the dress standard if I had an advertisement that stated that the dress sense for the interview was formal. However the subjectiveness of attire for an interview is up to the individual. There is no dress code for an interview, you could ask 50 people some would say formal some say a formal casual, some people recommend you match the office standard! I personally would look past the resume formatting and the dress of the person, treating them only as nice colour paper on the book that I'm trying to read from this person, sure if the paper is not a nice colour I may not try as hard to read the book. The book I am interested in qualifications, verbal communication, personality and aims for the future in work, knowhow, common sense. This could also be a reflection of my area, a few guys come off the farms around here when they finish uni, really bright (and have some knowhow) but are not in the know for the interview, and they are generally dressed in jeans and a white shirt, resume normally written by hand ect. I however find them to be great engineers.
 

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

RE: Kids these days...

We're just going to have to disagree on this.  Common sense, plus every single job interview prep class, presentation, etc., make it pretty clear that you have to dress up for an interview.  As with engineering, you make plausibly reasonable assumptions abouty the initial conditions.  You do not assume that everything is in your favor; you do not assume the best case.  Invariably, the simple answer is almost always "suit and tie."  To come to an interview substantially dressed down from that is poor judgement, period.

If someone came in like that, I'd definitely question his ability to make sound engineering judgements.   

TTFN

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RE: Kids these days...

I can agree to disagree.

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

RE: Kids these days...

Personally, I think the right costume for an interview is the suit and tie.  But I would not be offended by someone coming in in slacks and a nice polo shirt.  Clean pressed jeans and a nice T-shirt makes me think their a little over casual for an interview and ripped jeans and an old Metallica shirt is right out.

rowingengineer,

I might disagree with wanting to higher someone who needed to study less.  I think of myself as a pretty smart cookie, but I can tend to be lazy.  I've been consistently beaten by people I felt were less intelligent then me, but worked harder.  If someone is willing to study 14 hours a day to meet the standard that's someone I want to hire.  It takes more dedication and that dedication comes from passion.  This passion is something that has only come to me later in life.  I'm just now making up for a misspent youth.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

RE: Kids these days...

Kirby,
I would agree with dedication trumps talent, but too often I see dedication to studying not dedication to engineering, these are two different mind sets.
  

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

RE: Kids these days...

Hypothetically, someone who is dedicated to study could be redirected to engineering, but someone who is not dedicated to anything would be much harder to redirect.

TTFN

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RE: Kids these days...

The only place where "dedication trumps talent" is where no talent whatsoever is necessary.  In my opinion, "talent" in our profession is correlated with a kind of functional intelligence.  Hard working (dedicated) stupid people are my least favorite kind of employee- in fact these are the people we try to identify and not hire in the first place.

Many great inventions in history have been the result of "applied laziness"- a desire to find a way to avoid expending effort on a tiresome task.  This is as opposed to abject laziness- those folks avoid hard work by not doing any at all.





 

RE: Kids these days...

I heard on someone geting a job inteviewing in shorts and tshirt. It was a small bickle manufacturer in CA. A different corporate culture than most. Also remember Will Smith's character in "The Persuit of Happyness" dressed as he was for painting his apartment the day before the interview, gets arrested, pays off the outstanding parking tickets the next day and just makes it to the interview. He got the job.

But I would tend not to take an appicant seriously should he come to an interview in a tshirt. Now if he was dressed like that to drop off a resume and ended up with an interview, give him some slack.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: Kids these days...

moltenmeal..  good point.  I think the most dangerous men are imbeciles with ambition.  

RE: Kids these days...

I've had a few interviews. I've always arrived in suit and tie, and always been interviewed by guys in polos and slacks. I have never, EVER been criticized for being overdressed.

I've also never failed to land an offer after interviewing.

Dressing up for an interview never sends a bad message. Dressing down is a risk. Maybe you have the dynamic personality and talent to carry it off and make it into a great plus. Maybe the office you're going to will regard that as a welcome relief. But there is some obvious downside as well. There really isn't any downside to overdressing.

As an engineer, I have done this risk analysis myself, and if the person I'm looking at can't make this sort of evaluation on risk/reward, they are going to be working uphill. Manufacturing is plenty risky when you play it safe all the time - why should I add a loose cannon to my mix?

RE: Kids these days...

In respect to kids these days and motivation, a couple of weeks ago a kid in the neighborhood was going around door to door offering to mow lawns for $20.  If you were willing to hire him for the summer, he would do it weekly for $15.  Turns out he was trying to earn some money before going to college in the fall and wasn't able to land a summer job, so he got inventive.  I hired him, as did at least one other person.

On the subject of dress, I was asked to interview one fairly recent hire where I work now.  The guy came in wearing jeans and a wrinkled shirt.  Throughout the whole interview process I kept thinking how disrespectful that was and I was offended.  Our department head apparently didn't see things that way and hired him anyway.
 

RE: Kids these days...

So, was the guy that came in with the jeans and wrinkled shirt just off his lawn mowing job?

RE: Kids these days...

The real question is he competent in his work?
 

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

RE: Kids these days...

No, the guy who came in his jeans had been out of work for quite a while.  There was a giant memory chip maker call Qimonda that closed up operations.  The company I work at absorbed a few of its remains.  He was one of them.  One of the things that I kept thinking while interviewing him was that for someone out of work, and presumably wants this job, that dressing that sloppy was a just a really stupid way to communicate enthusiasm.  

He seems to be competent, but my interaction with him so far has been quite minimal.  I typically quiz the applicants by asking questions about a subject on their resume that I know something about.  I then will dig deeper and present them with a design problem and ask how they would approach the design.  I even tell them that there is no right or wrong answer, that I just want to see how they approach the problem.  In one instance when I did this and wouldn't give up on it, the candidate actually admitted that he had no experience in this area and that the recruiter made him put it on his resume.

The company has since tried to hire another engineer for a different position.  So far they haven't been able to find a qualified applicant, or at least one that doesn't need relocation which they are unwilling to offer.



 

RE: Kids these days...

Concerning dedication vs. intelligence I am reminded of Col. David Hackworths book "About Face."  He said there are four kinds of officers, The dumb lazy ones you don't have to worry about because they won't do much.  The smart go getters you don't have to worry about either because they'll do a reasonable job.  The dumb go getters are the greatest danger to anyone near them and should be avoided at all cost, but the best kind of officer was the smart lazy ones.  They know what needs to be done and will find the easiest path to get there.

I still hold with my dedication over intelligence.  Note I do not say talent.  Talent comes from practice, practice comes from dedication.  A smart guy may be able to get that talented with less work.  But a dumb dedicated guy will get that talented as well.  So I do not say dedication trumps talent as i feel dedication creates talent.  I might say that dedication could trump intelligence.  But I admit that the greatest people in any field, from art to aerospace are both dedicated and intelligent.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

RE: Kids these days...

"In physical science the first essential step in the direction of learning any subject is to find principles of numerical reckoning and practicable methods for measuring some quality connected with it. I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely in your thoughts advanced to the state of Science, whatever the matter may be."

Lord Kelvin [PLA, 1883-05-03]
 

RE: Kids these days...

I now think the dedication/talent metaphor is a variant of the tortoise/hare fable.  The hare has the talent, but little dedication, while the tortoise has dedication, but little talent.  So, the tortoise doesn't have zero talent.
 

TTFN

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RE: Kids these days...

IRstuff,

In my take on the metaphor, the hare has intelligence, but little dedication and the tortise has dedication but little intelligence.  Talent then becomes the finish line, which they will both get to, though not at the same time.

What was the original question?  Oh, yeah kids these days suck.  I think I've wandered off topic a bit.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

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