One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
(OP)
Interesting article from May issue of The Fabricator:
ht tp://www.t hefabricat or-digital .com/thefa bricator/2 01005/?pg= 10&pm= 1&u1=f riend#pg10
ht





RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
With that level of experience, I am sure that an equitable solution involving the waiver of confirmatory examinations in lieu of experience could be arranged. And a payment of fees to the board, of course...
Seems mighty-opinionated for a technical magazine's Editor-in-Chief to be writing, mind you.
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
However in this case I can see how the disgruntled customer has a case. Because "Engineer" was in the title of the business, that there was a PE on staff (at the least), but it turned out it was not the case. Kind of what fraud is defined. In the US it is understood that if the title of the company had the word Engineering in it that there was a licensed and insured engineer on staff. If not, other legit companies' / customers can not use them due to legal and liability reasons.
From the two last paragraphs of the article, I actually find pompous and small minded. If anybody can use the word engineering in their company title, this will be the beginning of the end of our profession (or has it started already). Before we know it we will see titles like McDonald's Engineering (we build burgers), Smith's Car Repair Engineering (engineering care for your car), and my favorite Janitorial Engineering (where mopping is an engineering wonder). To my understanding in England, the word engineer has not been regulated, thus being abused by other professions that have nothing to do with engineering, which brings the true Engineering profession down.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
1. When, in Illinois, did it become legally mandated that one had to be licensed to practice engineering? FYI, this happened in Washington in the late 60's, with most of the engineers I was working with at the time either taking the test, or being grandfathered in.
2. That being said, if it is really so important to him now, why did he not take the time to solve the problem simply, rather than grandstanding now? Personally, I do not know the individual or his reputation, have to question his judgment. If he had really been an "Engineer" as he states, he should have been aware of the engineering ethics laws with which we all must comply. It's not all technical competence that qualifies you for the licensing.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
While I don't share the editor's opinion, I can sympathize somewhat with the guy in question (although he should take the "engineering" out of his company name). Most manufacturers are providing engineering to their customers in the form of product design, but are not required to have any liscense as long as they don't charge directly for the service.
I can see a lot of arguments on both sides for requiring PE's in manufacturing...
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
This is actually a subtle attack on the engineering laws in that they take a very highly talented individual who has a splendid career and use his "poor" situation in an attempt to trash the state laws.
The other linked website even begins to imply that the rules prohibiting the use of the term engineer is only promoted by a "private group" and are not actually state law.
I'm very much in favor of engineering licensing laws.
I'm also very much in favor of industrial designers, within their own company, not needing to be licensed.
But this guy who was charged was apparently promoting himself to the public as an engineer, selling consulting services, and that was simply against the law.
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
Regards,
Mike
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
He hired the engineer to do some design work. Unfortunately, the design did not work as planned. The client eventually sued the engineer for Fraud and later the State of Illinois investigated when they heard about the lawsuit.
I think I read somewhere that the engineer was not carrying any insurance.
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
I reckon they have to draw the line somewhere, and defining, requiring, and enforcing liscensed engineering in manufacturing would be a nightmare for all concerned. 100 HP mooring winches and red rubber balls both require engineering to manufacture, but the safety and complexity spectrum in between is vast.
But some concrete examples from recent news: Toyota no-stop'em cars and lead painted toys from China. From the very complex and inherently dangerous to the very simple and seemingly harmless. Would these problems have been less likely to occur if there were mandated PE's in the loop?
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
The subject HAS been preyed upon.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
I ate that hamburger meat....it was OK on the way down, but it took a while to settle.
Fe
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
Amazing.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
Many countries don't have the title/word 'engineer/engineering' protected; it hasn't caused the end of the profession.
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
I was in the UK before this where the term engineer isn't really protected and I have reservations over some of the rules/effort made in the US to protect the term.
So, I'm inclined to think you might be making stuff up to be more dramatic.
People here in the states have no more or less an idea of what an engineer does than they did in the UK from what I've seen.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
Chris
www.value-design-consulting.co.uk
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
There are many clever folks that understand wiring and can trouble shoot and repair a circuit; but to offer services as an "electrician" and expect to get paid for that, one becomes licensed as an electrician.
There are many fabricators that understand the strength of materials and how to put things together; to offer services as a fabrication designer, and expect to get paid for that, one should not advertise (and a company name is considered advertising) engineering.
Seems simple enough to me. Perhaps that the author of the story does not understand this is evidence he is not an engineer (?)
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
Engineering isn't a protected word in Australia, our grads start at about 100% of the median full time wage for Australia,
http://www.britzinoz.com/info/wages.htm
which admittedly is about the same as the AVERAGE engineer in the UK.
and people like me are on twice that. Is that good? I don't know. If some bloke sells cars and he is good at it, should he be paid more than me? I don't know. I know I couldn't sell cars. Or at least I very much doubt I'd enjoy selling them as much as I enjoy 'designing' them.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
If it weren't for people like you, his job would not exist to say the least...
Fe
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
http:
I should point out that EA is the nearest we have to a professional engineers association in Oz, they have no practical effect so far as I can see. (well that might get a response)
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
Chris
www.value-design-consulting.co.uk
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
Oops, wrong forum.
- Steve
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
Obviously you're not talking about Doctors or Lawyers/Solicitors/Barristers as they generally take extra education and, at least in the early stages of their careers, long sometimes unsociable hours, oh and maybe a bit more stressful than the average engineering job - not that some aren't stressful enough.
One assumes you aren't talking about financial 'City/Wall street' type jobs since while it will probably recover to some extent right now that field isn't quite the 'green grass' it was often perceived to be. Plus I understand there is a little bit of pressure in the highest earning of those jobs etc.
Maybe you're talking about IT jobs, though I don't think that's quite as lucrative as it maybe was a few years back though I haven't really kept track.
Several of the jobs you mentioned originally have somewhat different employment conditions, hours, schedule etc. which partially explains the apparently high pay. Pretty sure when I was an engineer in the UK I was making more than a PC with similar experience. Used car salesman is one of those jobs that while some folks excel and make loads, many fall by the wayside.
So, what are these jobs?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
The second you mention the word engineer, all hell breaks loose.
I think people should be liable for the work they do. Period. Ever heard of "buyer beware"?
I'm a decent mechanical engineer (oh sh*t, can I not say that?), but when I decided I wanted to vault the ceiling in my house, along with doing my own calcs, I hired a structural engineer. I asked to see jobs he had done in the past, along with his credentials.
I met with him and decided he was good to go. I can't be the only person smart enough to do due diligence on a prospective service person.
I completely understand the necessity of the various PE tests as a matter of protecting the public, but I can't for the life of me figure out why we bicker about this stupid term.
If you don't have a PE license, then you shouldn't be able to have the title PE. Why shouldn't I be able to call myself an engineer, when I graduated from an engineering college, hold and engineering job, and have an engineering title?
It seems silly.
V
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
My point, as I'm sure you understand, is that there's always a way to get around wording and "titles".
The entire patent litigation industry is based on that.
V
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
Most who are PE (or PEng) are one one side, whereas most who don't have a PEng are on the other.....typical humans
Fe
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
I think you'll find that many of those on the 'other side' are those who live where the terms 'engineer/engineering' are NOT protected, and somehow still manage to make a reasonable living as a professional engineer.
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
-Kirby
Kirby Wilkerson
Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
As I've shared before, several of the best engineers I've worked with didn't have a degree. They'd come up through apprenticeships, with some vocational schooling - maybe equivalent to an AA or something but in the UK was HNC/HND.
These were folks that did extensive analysis, one of them was the chief stress engineer at a smallish (well small office) defence company, signing of Certificates of Design for flight equipment.
Myself and colleagues with our fancy degrees would go an ask these folks technical questions or in some cases have them do the complex analysis for us.
By your definitions Kirby these folks aren't engineers, which I'm sorry to say, is nonsense.
However, I may as well talk to the wind since I don't think anyone's ever changed their mind on this topic all the times it's been discussed.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
Chris
www.value-design-consulting.co.uk
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
- Steve
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
You're right. I guess I'm facing the same dilema the professional societies are facing. I want some benchmark so I can say that this person is qualified to do such and such, but there are many people who have the knowledge and ability without any formal way of recognizing their ability. I was avoiding that issue with my statement about the fluidity of what a degree can mean.
There is no rock solid way of seperating the wheat from the chaff, and what I'm suggesting is just a coarse way (though slightly less coarse then what the professional societies are suggesting) of proving that someone has met some standard of proficency.
My main point is just that reserving the word 'Engineer' only to people with a PE is wrong. Let them reserve 'Professional Engineer', and let that have some specific legal meaning and let me use the term Engineer or mechancial engineer.
-Kirby
Kirby Wilkerson
Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.
RE: One Engineer Fights for the Right to be called Engineer
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask