Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
(OP)
I was just curious if to see if anyone else had similar experiences in the past or now for that matter.
I started in the field doing surveying and construction inspection for about a year an a half in the mid to late 90s. When I came back in the office (a 50 year old full services consulting company) only very few people had limited access to the internet.
It appeared as if all the older guys had rat holed all the information they could in order to be the go to person or only distribute it as they saw fit. That is what I mean by "keepers of the knowledge". Job security was my reasoning behind them doing this.
Well a few years down the road and everybody has internet access and access to much if not all the information. There went much of the "keepers of the knowledge" job security. I know that a lot of these guys have lost their jobs in the recession. I have also twice now.
When I do have opportunities to interview sometimes I can't help but wonder if the guys interviewing me are some of the leftover "keepers of the knowledge" who are scared that I've got field experience and can do my own design.
One in paricular was on my first layoff. I applied for a civil designer position because that was what was posted (I've got a PE). I got a four hour interview meeting amongst several different people. The first and most important would be my direct supervisor who had been there 15 years and had a civil designer doing his design. I explained that I could design and stamp my own work and I think I scared him off.
Any thoughts on this rambling post?
I started in the field doing surveying and construction inspection for about a year an a half in the mid to late 90s. When I came back in the office (a 50 year old full services consulting company) only very few people had limited access to the internet.
It appeared as if all the older guys had rat holed all the information they could in order to be the go to person or only distribute it as they saw fit. That is what I mean by "keepers of the knowledge". Job security was my reasoning behind them doing this.
Well a few years down the road and everybody has internet access and access to much if not all the information. There went much of the "keepers of the knowledge" job security. I know that a lot of these guys have lost their jobs in the recession. I have also twice now.
When I do have opportunities to interview sometimes I can't help but wonder if the guys interviewing me are some of the leftover "keepers of the knowledge" who are scared that I've got field experience and can do my own design.
One in paricular was on my first layoff. I applied for a civil designer position because that was what was posted (I've got a PE). I got a four hour interview meeting amongst several different people. The first and most important would be my direct supervisor who had been there 15 years and had a civil designer doing his design. I explained that I could design and stamp my own work and I think I scared him off.
Any thoughts on this rambling post?





RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
There is a rule that says never hire someone that can replace you within a year. reason is that everyone generally looks good for the year, never used the rule myself, but I know a few who wished they had.
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
I've known a few and getting them to share would be like trying to get as pay rise in a recession.
These guys can be full of tricks because they are out for number one.
One guy I knew not only had to be subjected to inquisitorial techniques to get any knowledge but he also had a few other tricks not good for the company. For example, as the service manager he would insist that no electronics went out configured. The client would just get the electronics and an 80 page manual.
Quizzed about this he said it was because that way he could meet his target for service work by commissioning equipment on site.
The trouble is sales didn't quote the commissioning service because it added to the costs and the conceit was that these were "straight from the box" "plug n play" "fit and forget" (add your own management speak).
Of course the end user hadn't budgeted for commissioning. So, either they called in the sales guy who had to do it for free and which upset the service manager no end (he was forever stirring it up) or the end user would settle down with the manual (or give it to a work experience junior) and attempt to configure the unit themselves.
The services manager was forced to admit that because so few people took up commissioning and couldn't get free support from sales that most of the end user configured units would be brought to "just about functioning" state i.e. far from optimum.
Of course, to clamp down on freeby sales support the manager kept a lot of commissioning "secrets" to himself.
Very damaging and not only did this guy do this for virtually his whole career, management appeared powerless to do anything about it.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
After one works in a place for a month or two, it becomes apparant to others that you are of the competent type, actually know what you are doing, and get things done successfully. You become a resource to the company. There are just so many slackers and incompetents in the workforce that it just doesn't take much to shine. I've personally not had the experience with anyone "hoarding" proprietary information just for the sake of job security, although I'm sure it happens.
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
I've also seen and met persons that others branded with that moniker, who were more than happy to discourse at length with their experience and volumes of prior art, test data, and even design drawings. They just wanted to be asked, politely.
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
- Steve
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
Unfortunately, sometimes I think the "creator" of knowledge is held accountable for its misapplication. Until that changes, I think less harm is done by "hoarding" than allowing others to put "garbage in" and blame others for "garbage out".
-- MechEng2005
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
One guy relayed a story of when he went to one of the horders with a question, he reached into his desk, pulled out a folded up paper, opened it up like it was a poker hand, and gave him just enough info for him to leave and finish his task.
They are all gone now, and this was before any ISO, tribal knowledge etc became a buzz word.
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
No, to me you sound more like one of my mentors. Extremely smart and created many of his own mathcad sheets to perform various tasks. He also had much more software on his computer that was generally unavailable to others. I would get to use his computer and software when he was away. I respected him and his intelligence very much.
I could see how it could be perceived that he, or others like him, were "keepers" if a person did not work with him but he truly was a giver. And his intelligence shined where as the "keepers" do not. Keepers are obviously veiled.
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
I think there is a difference between sharing knowledge and work.
The use of spreadsheets is a topic which can generate some strong opinions.
I am happy to share my spreadsheets mainly because I see them as tools.
But the concerns MechEng2005 has about releasing this sort of tool are perhaps more deeply felt by some others.
Arguably when you share a spreadsheet you are not actually sharing knowledge. Too many people will not care how and why it does what it does the way it does.
To share the knowledge it is perhaps better to explain what the sheet does and then encourage the would be user to create their own.
Making your own spreadsheets teaches you two things:
How to use Excel better.
To understand the particular subject much better.
This is where we get into that "if you give a hungry man a fish, he will eat today. If you teach him to catch fish he will eat for life (his marriage might suffer but that isn't our concern)."
It could be argued that by handing out the spreadsheets you actually impede the learning process.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
I'm all for 'teaching a man to fish' but sometimes the time required to 'teach him to fish' isn't available. So, sometimes I'll just catch the fish for them as it takes less of my time in the short term.
Likewise if you know they're only going to be going fishing occasionally, or short term for your company, and you're already slammed does it make sense to take the time out to teach them to fish or do it yourself?
Don't get me wrong, I've spent a lot of time helping/teaching interns, trainees or colleagues. However, each time I try to make an assessment of if it's better to spend more time teaching them, or less time (in the short term at least) doing it myself. If it's something they'll be doing a lot then I obviously teach them.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
I did not like this and complained often because I had a lot of radar experience but often had unsolveable problems when testing radar on his bench, but I had few stripes and no friends among the high level civilians.
Then a higher ranking and more experienced radar technician was transferred to our outfit who also had a long history of being stationed with our newly installed commander. Very soon our shop chief was given a direct order to let our new radar tech rebuild the radar bench to the technical order specifications, and to document the entire rig via appropriate drawings.
Two days after the completely built rig was running per specifications and all the radar technicians could run the bench, the bench "owner" turned in his retirement papers. No one complained.
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
Documentation, a must have.
About thirty years ago when the group that owned our company bought a few new businesses and closed a factory in Scotland and in Cornwall and passed the manufacturing to our site, the first production runs produced nothing but scrap even though everything was to drawing.
The problem was the drawings always produced scrap but the machine operators knew which way to bias all the measurements but never documented it.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
Then I just get annoyed and hand over the fish.
One thing I don't have is endless patience, perhaps I don't even have enough patience.
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
Heck, it's almost as bad as being responsible for CAD Admin - which I am.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
In well run organisations it is a great benefit. But in others it becomes a barrier to improvements.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
I've known a fair share of KoK folks, some of them with a true dedication and passion to cloack info on everyone.
God they make me furious. But also they motivate me, and I love their faces the times I came up solving problems in their heavily guarded field of expertise.
Also, I follow a empirical law: "The more reluctant a person is to share and discuss his knowledge, the lesser his/her intelligence"
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
Sounds a bit like "traffic warden syndrome". The less power a person has, the more they wield it.
- Steve
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
Yep SG nice observation, I agree with that, but also I've seen some KoKs up the ladder.
No matter at what position, I see KoK as a way of getting permanently stuck in a position.
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
:)
It was an easy one!
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
I've met WORSE. External consultant, hired to find out, now that's something. Think item 2 on scope of services list must be "find scapegoat to save a.. of important person". Maybe they are the ultimate stage of evolutiuon of KoK's?
Would like to discover some workaround there.
R.
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
There is another syndrome which can be equally damaging and which is the absolute opposite personality.
These are the people who if asked will tell you all you need to know and a hell of a lot more besides.
One little question and you get the history all the way back to Noah with side tracks into other tenuously related territories.
This is sometimes just as bad as KOK syndrome.
It is a poor qualification for a consultant because he is likely to end up giving a lot of free consultations that should have been chargeable.
This web site is evidence of a general willingness to share but some of us some times share too much.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
We were given instructions to watch this guy and document everything he did, and what adjustments he made. He was instructed by the boss to cooperate with us and explain his reasons for making the adjustments he did.
The results did not change, after 3 months of "Sharing"
we were no further ahead. Finally The boss called an all hands meeting, and announced to the group that he was firing this guy.The boss explained to us that since the KoK was keeping and not imparting his knowledge, we were better off not using him and finding out for ourselves.
Surprisingly in another month we had the machines running quite well. Then we got bought out, but that is another story.
B.E.
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
When I was a sponsored student, one of my summer placements was on the shop floor, in a factory that manufactured starter motors and alternators. One of the machines turned strip metal into brush boxes, via several punching, folding and cutting operations at various stations through the machine. It had an indexing feed mechanism that needed to be precise so that punches hit the pilot holes exactly, otherwise they'd break, halting the machine until a new punch could be made in the tool shop.
The machine was set up by an oldish guy, who wore white overalls and had pencils in his breast pockets. A stereotypical KoK. The instructions for it were long gone, but there were some assembly drawings of the feed mechanism. My job was to design some modification to the feed mechanism to make it more accurate and repeatable.
After much study and a few cuts and bruises, I realised that the KoK had been setting it up wrong all the time. There was some resistance, but I managed to persuade his superiors to give my "new method" a go on a batch or two ... failures disappeared. I never found out whether he was deliberately setting it up wrong so as to keep his position of strength.
- Steve
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
I mentioned the guy with his demand that no electronics should be factory configured. His job was safe but by his own admission, the majority of systems in the field probably operated at the just barely functional level.
A lot of clients would get upset and a great many probably considered the problem to be not with their setting up of the system but with the product itself.
If you wanted to see herd mentality along the same lines, you could do no worse than compare, as I had the opportunity to compare, the new Nissan Car plant in Sunderland where the production line conveyor never stopped and the guys would use their breaks to refill their bins, with one of those Leyland dinosaurs where the conveyor was never running whenever I visited and where there Nissan had all automated filling for fuel, oils, windscreen fluids etc., the Leyland plant had pallets of 500ml bottles. (more convenient, I'm sure, for "perks").
Yes, some people don't care if the company they work for goes down the pan.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
How do they think that they will ever become experts?
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
Frightening.
The "man and boy" attitude is one of the main reasons why some companies do not advance.
At one company I worked for, they were waiting for the day Old Joe retired so they could institute some changes. Trouble is that as often as not the conditions which lead to that solution haven't applied since they invented the wheel but no one now remembers why they do it that way and no one wants to take the time to find out.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
However, a lot of the time the box is there for a real good reason.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
Fe
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
Bringing up the "brown star" when the "box" was already pushing it?
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
We all love "brown stars"
Fe
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
Some years ago while working at a large defense contractor, we had a series of lectures about overcoming " Man and Boy syndrome" I do not know that they did much good, but an interesting story was told about a person cooking a roast, and was used as a horrible example.
The story goes that a man noticed that before his wife put the roast in the pan, she cut about an inch of meat off the end of the roast. Her husband asked her why she did that, she replied that she did not know, but that her mother had always done that. The next time the man met his mother in law he asked her about the practise. She replied that she did not know, but her mother had always done it.
Some months later, he was on a visit with his wife to see her grandmother in a nursing home, and he thought to ask her the question, The answer came back " My meat pan was too short, I had to cut the end off to get the roast into the pan."
If you feel it is inappropriate please feel free to delete it.
B.E.
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
(how this got posted elsewhere is beyond me but here is where it was intended to be.)
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
It's kind of bad for my hoarder personality though...I have a massive number of books now, drives my movers banana sandwich when I switch residences
I do see why some of you just give them the fish now. It's hard to get your work done when everyone comes to you with their questions.
K
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
It's a conditioned response behavior, and in a particular environment can result in a long career.
It only becomes unsuccessful as a survival strategy when a _serious_ effort is made at change of the environment, _from_above_.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
But try not to think of me as a bespectacled old lady with her hair tied up in a bun!
I'm the one who takes the time to sort through the useful stuff and set it aside in "findable" places on the computer network, I'm the one who has a big stack of books on the shelf by his desk, I'm the one who's looked through enough of it that usually I can think of a few resources when someone asks about some odd topic out of the blue.
Which is basically what you expect a librarian to do.
I also expect my books returned in a reasonable time!
Steven Fahey, CET
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
Steven Fahey, CET
RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
You can try, but I do not think anybody on this forum would guarantee success.
B.E.