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Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality
4

Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

(OP)
I was just curious if to see if anyone else had similar experiences in the past or now for that matter.

I started in the field doing surveying and construction inspection for about a year an a half in the mid to late 90s.  When I came back in the office (a 50 year old full services consulting company) only very few people had limited access to the internet.

It appeared as if all the older guys had rat holed all the information they could in order to be the go to person or only distribute it as they saw fit.  That is what I mean by "keepers of the knowledge".  Job security was my reasoning behind them doing this.

Well a few years down the road and everybody has internet access and access to much if not all the information.     There went much of the "keepers of the knowledge" job security.  I know that a lot of these guys have lost their jobs in the recession.  I have also twice now.  

When I do have opportunities to interview sometimes I can't help but wonder if the guys interviewing me are some of the leftover "keepers of the knowledge" who are scared that I've got field experience and can do my own design.  

One in paricular was on my first layoff.  I applied for a civil designer position because that was what was posted (I've got a PE).  I got a four hour interview meeting amongst several different people.  The first and most important would be my direct supervisor who had been there 15 years and had a civil designer doing his design.  I explained that I could design and stamp my own work and I think I scared him off.

Any thoughts on this rambling post?

 

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

I would be what you call a keeper of knowledge, not because I what to keep it from people but because most engineers these days are reluctant to want to read it until it directly affects their project. And even then they would rather quiz me then read the book.

There is a rule that says never hire someone that can replace you within a year. reason is that everyone generally looks good for the year, never used the rule myself, but I know a few who wished they had.
 

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

I think there is a difference here between custodian - Rowing Engineer - who has the knowledge and would like nothing better than to share, and a "Keeper" of the knowledge, meaning some one who wants to keep the knowledge to themselves.
I've known a few and getting them to share would be like trying to get as pay rise in a recession.

These guys can be full of tricks because they are out for number one.

One guy I knew not only had to be subjected to inquisitorial techniques to get any knowledge but he also had a few other tricks not good for the company. For example, as the service manager he would insist that no electronics went out configured. The client would just get the electronics and an 80 page manual.
Quizzed about this he said it was because that way he could meet his target for service work by commissioning equipment on site.
The trouble is sales didn't quote the commissioning service because it added to the costs and the conceit was that these were "straight from the box" "plug n play" "fit and forget" (add your own management speak).
Of course the end user hadn't budgeted for commissioning. So, either they called in the sales guy who had to do it for free and which upset the service manager no end (he was forever stirring it up) or the end user would settle down with the manual (or give it to a work experience junior) and attempt to configure the unit themselves.
The services manager was forced to admit that because so few people took up commissioning and couldn't get free support from sales that most of the end user configured units would be brought to "just about functioning" state i.e. far from optimum.

Of course, to clamp down on freeby sales support the manager kept a lot of commissioning "secrets" to himself.

Very damaging and not only did this guy do this for virtually his whole career, management appeared powerless to do anything about it.

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

You are too kind.  They are called "trolls".

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

When it comes to the technical disciplines, be it engineering, tool & die, etc, people will not remain static, you either become an "asker" or an "answerer".  Being a keeper of the knowledge does not come by choice, at least in my case.

After one works in a place for a month or two, it becomes apparant to others that you are of the competent type, actually know what you are doing, and get things done successfully.  You become a resource to the company.  There are just so many slackers and incompetents in the workforce that it just doesn't take much to shine.  I've personally not had the experience with anyone "hoarding" proprietary information just for the sake of job security, although I'm sure it happens.

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

I've seen the mentality.  It's usually not hard to back somebody of that ilk into a corner, and hoist them on their own petard ("but you said y, and it's clearly x, what gives?).

I've also seen and met persons that others branded with that moniker, who were more than happy to discourse at length with their experience and volumes of prior art, test data, and even design drawings.  They just wanted to be asked, politely.

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

I've just completed a tome on everything I know about one of our programs: how it works; why it's written that way; why I think it's better than the competition.  I think my bosses fear that I may get hit by a bus, or worse, hit by a better job offer.  The counter-theory is that they want me to make myself expendable.

- Steve

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

I hope I'm not perceived as a "keeper", but I could see where I would be. I have made Excel spreadsheets with a number of more complex tasks (i.e. not simple addition). I don't always share these with my co-worker, because I don't have the time to put the proper "safety features" into the spreadsheet. For example, if I have a spreadsheet calculating convective heat transfer, I'm not likely to share it with somebody that hasn't heard the word "laminar" and "turbulent", because the spreadsheet is likely only written for one of those conditions. Until I have time and desire to put a line to make the answer read "ERROR" instead of a number if there are invalid assumptions, I won't share it with anybody that I don't think is competent and willing to review and understand it.

Unfortunately, sometimes I think the "creator" of knowledge is held accountable for its misapplication. Until that changes, I think less harm is done by "hoarding" than allowing others to put "garbage in" and blame others for "garbage out".

-- MechEng2005

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

More often I'm an "answer guy", not a "question guy".  I'm also "teacher guy".  I have no interest in hoarding knowledge.  I'd rather people learn and move on, (at least move on to more intelligent questions).

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

I worked with a group of guys many years ago, that survived several seasons of layoffs in the company.  When things got real busy, and a small army was growing in the program, a few of the horders were difficult to get info from.

One guy relayed a story of when he went to one of the horders with a question, he reached into his desk, pulled out a folded up paper, opened it up like it was a poker hand, and gave him just enough info for him to leave and finish his task.

They are all gone now, and this was before any ISO, tribal knowledge etc became a buzz word.

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

(OP)
MechEng2005,

No, to me you sound more like one of my mentors.  Extremely smart and created many of his own mathcad sheets to perform various tasks.  He also had much more software on his computer that was generally unavailable to others.  I would get to use his computer and software when he was away. I respected him and his intelligence very much.  

I could see how it could be perceived that he, or others like him, were "keepers" if a person did not work with him but he truly was a giver.  And his intelligence shined where as the "keepers" do not.  Keepers are obviously veiled.

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

Interesting.
I think there is a difference between sharing knowledge and work.
The use of spreadsheets is a topic which can generate some strong opinions.
I am happy to share my spreadsheets mainly because I see them as tools.

But the concerns MechEng2005 has about releasing this sort of tool are perhaps more deeply felt by some others.
Arguably  when you share a spreadsheet you are not actually sharing knowledge. Too many people will not care how and why it does what it does the way it does.

To share the knowledge it is perhaps better to explain what the sheet does and then encourage the would be user to create their own.

Making your own spreadsheets teaches you two things:
How to use Excel better.
To understand the particular subject much better.

This is where we get into that "if you give a hungry man a fish, he will eat today. If you teach him to catch fish he will eat for life (his marriage might suffer but that isn't our concern)."
It could be argued that by handing out the spreadsheets you actually impede the learning process.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

Hmm maybe I'm sometimes guilty.

I'm all for 'teaching a man to fish' but sometimes the time required to 'teach him to fish' isn't available.  So, sometimes I'll just catch the fish for them as it takes less of my time in the short term.

Likewise if you know they're only going to be going fishing occasionally, or short term for your company, and you're already slammed does it make sense to take the time out to teach them to fish or do it yourself?

Don't get me wrong, I've spent a lot of time helping/teaching interns, trainees or colleagues.  However, each time I try to make an assessment of if it's better to spend more time teaching them, or less time (in the short term at least) doing it myself.  If it's something they'll be doing a lot then I obviously teach them.
 

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

I used to work with some civil servants when I was in the US Air Force.  One technician in particular was the "owner" of the radar test bench.  Over the years he had modified the radar bench to his liking and all the changes were in his head.

I did not like this and complained often because I had a lot of radar experience but often had unsolveable problems when testing radar on his bench, but I had few stripes and no friends among the high level civilians.

Then a higher ranking and more experienced radar technician was transferred to our outfit who also had a long history of being stationed with our newly installed commander.  Very soon our shop chief was given a direct order to let our new radar tech rebuild the radar bench to the technical order specifications, and to document the entire rig via appropriate drawings.

Two days after the completely built rig was running per specifications and all the radar technicians could run the bench, the bench "owner" turned in his retirement papers.  No one complained.

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

Ah!
Documentation, a must have.

About thirty years ago when the group that owned our company bought a few new businesses and closed a factory in Scotland and in Cornwall and passed the manufacturing to our site, the first production runs produced nothing but scrap even though everything was to drawing.
The problem was the drawings always produced scrap but the machine operators knew which way to bias all the measurements but never documented it.



  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

I'm all for 'teaching a man to fish' but sometimes the intelligence/application required to 'learn to fish' just isn't there.

Then I just get annoyed and hand over the fish.

One thing I don't have is endless patience, perhaps I don't even have enough patience.

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

I work with someone who is a keeper of information.  Not technical knowledge; that's me, and I'm desperatly trying to pass on my knowledge only there are awfully few opportunities to do so.  The keeper of information keeps information about who is doing what and when, and views information as ammunition to be deployed when necessary to increase one's advantage.  It's terribly frustrating.  

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

This issue actually came up during an ISO 14001 audit at our shop, where we had to contact a retiree for some information that should have been available to his successors. The assessor did not write up a finding but strongly recommended putting a system in place for transfer of knowledge.

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

It's good to routinely produce Work Instructions to cover routines not obvious to the unexperienced. It helps the newbies and helps produce efficient operations. ISO9000 encourages this.

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

Ah, you're not looking at it the right way Kenat.  If I'm writing the work instruction then MY way of doing task X is what gets documented/becomes official.  I volunteer to write the documentation for the things that matter to me (and for those that don't, I agree - I run away if possible).

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

I'm looking at it as the task that usually gets given to interns or incompetent manufacturing engineers (no I'm not saying that all manufacturing engineers are incompetent, just that some of ours are) and offers not a jot of career advancement or 'job security' etc.   Oh, and I don't mind as much if it's the WI for something I actually designed or at least got to do but that's only about 20%.

Heck, it's almost as bad as being responsible for CAD Admin - which I am.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
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RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

I think we covered this somewhere before (some time ago) but while ISO 9000 has its advantages when used optimally, in many companies, once everything is documented it is as if they documents have been carved in stone. "Thou shalt not alter anything once it has been documented." Becomes the rule. The problem is that accurate documenting and maintenance of documents doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the product or procedure is good or bad.
In well run organisations it is a great benefit. But in others it becomes a barrier to improvements.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality



I've known a fair share of KoK folks, some of them with a true dedication and passion to cloack info on everyone.

God they make me furious. But also they motivate me, and I love their faces the times I came up solving problems in their heavily guarded field of expertise.

Also, I follow a empirical law: "The more reluctant a person is to share and discuss his knowledge, the lesser his/her intelligence"

 

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

"The more reluctant a person is to share and discuss his knowledge, the lesser his/her intelligence"

Sounds a bit like "traffic warden syndrome".  The less power a person has, the more they wield it.

- Steve

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality



Yep SG nice observation, I agree with that, but also I've seen some KoKs up the ladder.

No matter at what position, I see KoK as a way of getting permanently stuck in a position.

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

I think KoK is an awesome TLA for this type of person.  Somehow, it just sounds appropriate.

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality


:)

It was an easy one!

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

Ke-o-Kno's ..., well, somehow they are on my side?! if they are on the same payroll..think payroll membership works in both directions.. only the knowledge of the person has to be extracted... pro bono publico...amicably if possible...
I've met WORSE. External consultant, hired to find out, now that's something. Think item 2 on scope of services list must be "find  scapegoat to save a.. of important person". Maybe they are the ultimate stage of evolutiuon of KoK's?
Would like to discover some workaround there.

R.
 

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

Work Instructions is the realm of the experienced engineer, not the newbie. My insecure eng mgr [not a graduate engr] panicked when I produced a number of WI, so he wrote one that was made to predate mine. What a shlamiel.

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

Matter and Anit-matter.

There is another syndrome which can be equally damaging and which is the absolute opposite personality.
These are the people who if asked will tell you all you need to know and a hell of a lot more besides.

One little question and you get the history all the way back to Noah with side tracks into other tenuously related territories.

This is sometimes just as bad as KOK syndrome.
It is a poor qualification for a consultant because he is likely to end up giving a lot of free consultations that should have been chargeable.
This web site is evidence of a general willingness to share but some of us some times share too much.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

I worked with a guy, someone later said about him, 'If you asked him what time it was, an hour later you'd know where the watch was manufactured, where the ore was mined, you'd know all about the refining process and the manufacturing steps, but you still wouldn't know what time it was...'

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

(OP)
I've met that type also, just not as many.  A phone call about a simpe question turns into 30 minute conversation.  Go out into the field to survey some items off another individuals control points.  We dig around in the grass medians a year after the original survey for a quarter of the day.  Finally I'm like why don't we find some control in the pavement or concrete.  Oh okay is his response.  Back in the office once, his company phone starts ringing and he runs around saying whats that, whats that, oh thats my company phone.  Very disruptive persons I agree but I have not met that many of this type.  I'm sure they have their reasons like have to feed the family and such.  I don't have that problem/blessing.  I figured I'd rather be secure where I'm at before having a family.

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

More like 'Dispenser of the BS' (DoBS) than KoK.

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

I like the term "Suppository of Knowledge" (SuK). I worked with a buttmunch that was the SuK. One time he was demonstrating his oral/alimentary flexibility by telling his audience (the engineering and maintenance staff) how when he worked at a DPW, they would put in fake t-stats for people that complained too much about the temperature. The whole room busted out laughing because his fake t-stat was glued to the wall behind him. His lapdog assitant was a SuK in training (SukIT), used to always say "my boss dictates this and my boss dictates that." Only one way to shut him up and that was to tell him nobody else cares how his boss dictate.

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

2
Anecdotal story on KoK mentalities, In the early 1970's I was working for a company making coin wrapping machines. At this time they were a start up and they had about 4 pre production machines working. The next task was to get them into production. No matter what we did, these machines would not work until the head machinist had " breathed" on them.
 We were given instructions to watch this guy and document everything he did, and what adjustments he made. He was instructed by the boss to cooperate with us and explain his reasons for making the adjustments he did.
  The results did not change, after 3 months of "Sharing"
we were no further ahead. Finally The boss called an all hands meeting, and announced to the group that he was firing this guy.The boss explained to us that since the KoK was keeping and not imparting his knowledge, we were better off not using him and finding out for ourselves.
  Surprisingly in another month we had the machines running quite well. Then we got bought out, but that is another story.
B.E.
 
  

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

Similar story.

When I was a sponsored student, one of my summer placements was on the shop floor, in a factory that manufactured starter motors and alternators.  One of the machines turned strip metal into brush boxes, via several punching, folding and cutting operations at various stations through the machine.  It had an indexing feed mechanism that needed to be precise so that punches hit the pilot holes exactly, otherwise they'd break, halting the machine until a new punch could be made in the tool shop.

The machine was set up by an oldish guy, who wore white overalls and had pencils in his breast pockets.  A stereotypical KoK.  The instructions for it were long gone, but there were some assembly drawings of the feed mechanism.  My job was to design some modification to the feed mechanism to make it more accurate and repeatable.

After much study and a few cuts and bruises, I realised that the KoK had been setting it up wrong all the time.  There was some resistance, but I managed to persuade his superiors to give my "new method" a go on a batch or two ... failures disappeared.  I never found out whether he was deliberately setting it up wrong so as to keep his position of strength.

- Steve

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

Yeah, and either is possible.

I mentioned the guy with his demand that no electronics should be factory configured. His job was safe but by his own admission, the majority of systems in the field probably operated at the just barely functional level.
A lot of clients would get upset and a great many probably considered the problem to be not with  their setting up of the system but with the product itself.

If you wanted to see herd mentality along the same lines, you could do no worse than compare, as I had the opportunity to compare, the new Nissan Car plant in Sunderland where the production line conveyor never stopped and the guys would use their breaks to refill their bins, with one of those Leyland dinosaurs where the conveyor was never running whenever I visited and where there Nissan had all automated filling for fuel, oils, windscreen fluids etc., the Leyland plant had pallets of 500ml bottles. (more convenient, I'm sure, for "perks").

Yes, some people don't care if the company they work for goes down the pan.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

KoK's or SuK's are one thing. What I am more worried about is that most new people asking questions only want the answer and not the reason why. Going back to the analogy with the fish: they only want a fish today and not learn how to fish.
How do they think that they will ever become experts?

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

It's not only the new guys that just want the answer.  I know several engineers who have been working in our profession for many years that can't explain to you why they did something.  They give answers along the lines of someone told them to do it that way, they borrowed from a previous design, or that is the way it has always been done.

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

Ah, yes, Philmech, the well known "man and boy" syndrome.
Frightening.
The "man and boy" attitude is one of the main reasons why some companies do not advance.
At one company I worked for, they were waiting for the day Old Joe retired so they could institute some changes. Trouble is that as often as not the conditions which lead to that solution haven't applied since they invented the wheel but no one now remembers why they do it that way and no one wants to take the time to find out.


 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

Let's hope the "box" is there every night pipe

peace
Fe

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

Oh...brown star for that one Fe.

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

Really btrue?

Bringing up the "brown star" when the "box" was already pushing it?

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

HAHAHAHA!
We all love "brown stars" pipe

peace
Fe

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

philmech and jmw
 Some years ago while working at a large defense contractor, we had a series of lectures about overcoming " Man and Boy syndrome" I do not know that they did much good, but an interesting story was told about a person cooking a roast, and was used as a horrible example.
   The story goes that a man noticed that before his wife put the roast in the pan, she cut about an inch of meat off the end of the roast. Her husband asked her why she did that, she replied that she did not know, but that her mother had always done that. The next time the man met his mother in law he asked her about the practise. She replied that she did not know, but her mother had always done it.
 Some months later, he was on a visit with his wife to see her grandmother in a nursing home, and he thought to ask her the question, The answer came back " My meat pan was too short, I had to cut the end off to get the roast into the pan."

 If you feel it is inappropriate please feel free to delete it.
B.E.

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

Monkey see. Monkey do. Monkey no think.


(how this got posted elsewhere is beyond me but here is where it was intended to be.)

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

I have ran into a couple of people that had been branded KoK's in my work place. I found out quickly that if I tried to answer my own problem (ie read the code) and then went and asked them pointed questions the flood gates opened. They were all too happy to share the information as long as I wasn't looking for the spoon fed version (or quick answer).

It's kind of bad for my hoarder personality though...I have a massive number of books now, drives my movers banana sandwich when I switch residences winky smile

I do see why some of you just give them the fish now. It's hard to get your work done when everyone comes to you with their questions.

K

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

I don't believe that anyone is born a KoK.

It's a conditioned response behavior, and in a particular environment can result in a long career.

It only becomes unsuccessful as a survival strategy when a _serious_ effort is made at change of the environment, _from_above_.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

I try to act like the "librarian" when it comes to engineering data.

But try not to think of me as a bespectacled old lady with her hair tied up in a bun!

I'm the one who takes the time to sort through the useful stuff and set it aside in "findable" places on the computer network, I'm the one who has a big stack of books on the shelf by his desk, I'm the one who's looked through enough of it that usually I can think of a few resources when someone asks about some odd topic out of the blue.

Which is basically what you expect a librarian to do.

I also expect my books returned in a reasonable time!
 

Steven Fahey, CET

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

Do you charge late fees?

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

That reminds me - the boss hasn't returned the biography of Steve Fossett, which I loaned him 6 months ago.  I should try to squeeze a 1/2 vacation day "late fee" out of him!

Steven Fahey, CET

RE: Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality

SparWeb
You can try, but I do not think anybody on this forum would guarantee success. smile

B.E.

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