not up to snuff.
not up to snuff.
(OP)
Background;
A gentleman graduated from a university with a BE (civil), then applied to a many local firms looking for work as an engineer, however came up stumps and got a job as a civil draftee with the idea of over time moving into engineering.
The gentleman after 6 years now has a drafting with some engineering job description (design daftsmen). He would like to start to apply for his certification as an engineer.
Issue; the gentleman has requested his supervising engineers (aka my former boss) sign off on reports of his career, they have refused saying they don't think he has what it takes to be an engineer, also stating that he should have never got his BE as he got it in dubious circumstances (I don't know the details). I have been approached because I did work at the company to sign off on his reports; I haven't made up my mind on this yet.
Question; is his supervising engineer the man who should make this call, or should he just sign as appropriate the reports if true, and let the board handle the rest.
A gentleman graduated from a university with a BE (civil), then applied to a many local firms looking for work as an engineer, however came up stumps and got a job as a civil draftee with the idea of over time moving into engineering.
The gentleman after 6 years now has a drafting with some engineering job description (design daftsmen). He would like to start to apply for his certification as an engineer.
Issue; the gentleman has requested his supervising engineers (aka my former boss) sign off on reports of his career, they have refused saying they don't think he has what it takes to be an engineer, also stating that he should have never got his BE as he got it in dubious circumstances (I don't know the details). I have been approached because I did work at the company to sign off on his reports; I haven't made up my mind on this yet.
Question; is his supervising engineer the man who should make this call, or should he just sign as appropriate the reports if true, and let the board handle the rest.
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field





RE: not up to snuff.
TTFN
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RE: not up to snuff.
RE: not up to snuff.
On the other hand the boss has no right to say whether or not he has in him to become an engineer or not. He did pass the exam and got a degree, in that regard why does he need his approval? Perhaps the "report" is not written correctly, if at all needed.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: not up to snuff.
For Chartered status (similar to PE) in our part of the world you are required to submit for review detailed career reports stating experience in 25-30 different aspects as defined by our local engineering org. This generally adds up to 15 pages or more. The defining requirements for each category are meant engineering related (as I say meant), for example copied from the book:
C1.5 Identifies constraints on potential engineering solutions
a. Identifies the interrelationship of social, physical, environmental, political, financial and cultural issues with the proposed engineering solutions
b. Identifies professional risks, statutory responsibilities and liabilities
c. Implements Occupational Health and Safety and other statutory requirements
d. Identifies hazards and consequent risks, and initiates appropriate safety and disaster management measures
e. Identifies long term environmental and sustainability issues associated with engineering activities
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field
RE: not up to snuff.
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RE: not up to snuff.
Ah thanks, I forgot that you are down under! I just took PE to be being in the USA!
And there are people in USA that think only their requirements are odd and cumbersome. (I never thought so. I am happy to be here.)
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: not up to snuff.
I've wrestled with whether I should have just gone ahead with my candid assessment and not discussed it with him beforehand (he would possibly have been denied the opportunity to take the exam), but I think I did the right thing.
Rafiq....it sounds like the application in Oz is similar to the PE for the definition of "responsible charge" of engineering works. Some boards are loose on that interpretation, some are tight.
RE: not up to snuff.
RE: not up to snuff.
RE: not up to snuff.
I also do not think denial from one or two pricks, ever has stopped anyone getting a PE as long as he is otherwise qualified. The recommendation are required but not necessarily from a particular person.
Heck, I have had told them (truthfully), here is my experience and I cannot find my previous boss or supervisor because either the company no longer exist or it was in a foreign country.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: not up to snuff.
I have lost touch with the current examining criteria here in Australia, but if he is merely asking you to attest that his reports are accurate, I don't see why not to sign. Neither do I see why his boss wouldn't sign, but he must have his reasons.
Is there an exam? I wasn't aware of one.
If you can truly sign his reports but still have concerns about his becoming an engineer, you might want to write to the examining authority who will appoint the interview committee. Let them deal with any such issues.
RE: not up to snuff.
t0 to be a reference?
If so tell the truth as YOU KNOW it.
I wouldn't put anything in writing like "he got it in dubious circumstances (I don't know the details)."
In very un-general terms if you don't know what your talking about and the issue concerns the reputation of someone you don't know anything about Shut the _ _ _ _ up.
I think it is very unethical to put as much as you have on a world wide web-site. IF POME land is like the USA ( and I would assume it is based on english common law) you could be sued for slander.
This website is supposed to be for PFOFESSIONALS. Dealing in rumors and imcomplete facts seems more like a bunch of imature high school twits, not what I would expect from professionals.
RE: not up to snuff.
RE: not up to snuff.
RE: not up to snuff.
By implying rowingengineer is a pome, you just did the same as calling a good old boy from Alabama a Yankee.
Regards
Pat
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RE: not up to snuff.
BJC,
Please note the "also stating", that means my former boss used this as an excuse to the gentleman in his refusal to sign the reports. I have no knowledge of his uni marks nor grading methods used. I have only included this as a reference to my former boss's thoughts.
I am not looking for advice on my responsibility, I have been asked to sign off on his reports of his work that I have been involved. I am yet to review the reports thoroughly and will decide on my path after I have reviewed the reports thoroughly.
My question was whether a supervising engineer should make the call, as to the fitness of an individual to become a certified engineer.
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field
RE: not up to snuff.
If not his supervisoring engineer, then who?
TTFN
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RE: not up to snuff.
'Originally an acronym for the status of inmates sent to Australia: 'Prisoner of Mother England'.
At first used by the English to describe Australians (as anyone Australian must, obviously, have come from prison), now in a strange refersal used by Australians to designate anyone from England. "
"Oid loik ta waelcum tha pome baastud ta god's awn eu-uth, and ta remoind him we deown't loik stack-ap sticky beeks reound hee."
rowingengineer. Fairly Read and review his reports, he may hit a home run on the third one, sounds like he has two strikes allready.
RE: not up to snuff.
I don't think it is correct to say that misrepresentation is the only reason for the interview panel to recommend against an applicant. I have been on review panels, albeit not recently, and the quality of the reports as well as the interview itself certainly were factors. I believe submittals by others concerning the applicant, addressed to the panel, are also considered in some cases.
RE: not up to snuff.
You are probably right; I think my jaded opinion has developed due to my experiences on the assessment board in recent times, and DOT engineers applying for structural engineer cert. It all comes down to if you believe standard culverts are civil design or structural design or enginereing at all. But I hadn't thought of submittals, I would expect them to be handled at the interview stage.
IRstuff,
The board should be the answer to that question, but I'm not that confident hence the discussion.
Thankyou everyone for your input, I have decided I am going to negotiate on behalf of the gent with the supervising engineer. I am going to suggest that the gent enter a development program for a minimum of two years.
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field
RE: not up to snuff.
RE: not up to snuff.
RE: not up to snuff.
That decision lies with the board. The supervisor is not the board. There is no room for slander. Supervisor is free to not provide the recommendation. That is not mandatory.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: not up to snuff.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: not up to snuff.
How can one without being PE (prior to getting the license) be in responsible charge of engineering works?
Someone is misinterpreting the requirements. The requirements to be able to take the PE exams include engagement in engineering work, be able to perform calculations, write specs, evaluate existing conditions, knowledge of codes etc.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: not up to snuff.
RE: not up to snuff.
TTFN
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RE: not up to snuff.
RE: not up to snuff.
That is true for USA also.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: not up to snuff.
Sounds like a load of pompous crap, I know, but some of us take these legal and ethical responsibilities quite seriously. Dunno what it was like at your school, but at mine it was quite hard to excel but dead easy to scrape by with a degree. Not everyone with that fancy piece of paper is someone who I'd entrust my own life or the lives of my family members to, and that can literally be the case with a professional engineer's judgment.
RE: not up to snuff.
Not everyone is cut out to be an engineer... And god knows we can do more damage than a handgun!!
RE: not up to snuff.
That's not something that'll be revealed in any interview process, but would be evident from an impartial assessment by his supervising manager.
TTFN
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RE: not up to snuff.
It will be whether the experience years count or not which you may well be able to attest to. Have a look at the UK-SPEC http:/
The IMechE has a scoring system to assess candidates against each of the criteria:
Scoring guidance for those attaining CEng:
Level 1 = Performs the activity with significant supervision and guidance; performs basic routine and predictable tasks; little or no individual responsibility. (This level of competence would not normally be sufficient for election to Membership)
Level 2 = Performs the activity in a range of contexts; supervision only required in more complex circumstances; some individual responsibility or autonomy. (This indicates a minimum level of competence for election to Membership, which should be supplemented, by higher levels of competence in the areas most relevant to the field of engineering in which the applicant is employed).
Level 3 = Performs the activity in some complex and non-routine contexts; significant responsibility and autonomy; can oversee the work of others. (This indicates a normal level of competence for election to Membership).
Level 4 = Performs the activity in a wide range of complex and non-routine contexts; substantial personal autonomy; can develop others in the activity. (This indicates a high level of competence and suitability for election to Membership and possibly Fellowship)
Hopefully the Aussie institutions should have similar guidance to help you with your quandry!
Regards, HM
No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam
RE: not up to snuff.
A separate part of the application was letters of reference.
It sounds like the OP is talking about the first kind of thing (documentation of experience) and not the second (how good someone is at their job). Yes?
Hg
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RE: not up to snuff.
That would be consistent with my view.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: not up to snuff.
I could see parallels in the original post in this thread to things that were happening in the US. For instance:
"got his BE as he got it in dubious circumstances"= He got it at Tuskegee
"The gentleman after 6 years now has a drafting with some engineering job description (design daftsmen)." = At least they gave him a job doing something besides sweeping the floor.
"then applied to a many local firms looking for work as an engineer," - That mighty upity of him.
RE: not up to snuff.
They still ask for the photo, but now they want it along with the imprint of your newly acquired seal, not as part of the application.
I think attributing racism to the OP's boss is rather a stretch.
The question has to do with what one is attesting to when one signs off on the candidate's experience reports. And the answer is probably printed on that form somewhere.
Hg
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