Electronic PE Sealing
Electronic PE Sealing
(OP)
Just taking a poll to see what others do out there in the US for your engineering sealing of plans.
In years past, when drafting was done on paper/linen/mylar, the engineers were directed by state laws to hand seal (or sometimes emboss) and hand sign and date each drawing.
We then retained possession of the drawings and only blueprints/blueline copies were created which also had the seal/signature on them. It was essentially impossible to change the blueprints/bluelines.
As Cad rolled in, the typical approach was to print out mylars (initially) of plans and still hand seal/sign as before.
Then the electrostatic printers came out where large sheets could be printed out on paper with black ink. We then had the task of wet sealing/signing numerous copies of plans.
Today, many times consultants attempt to share there plans with the team and forward them to their client/architect in pdf form. Applying a PE seal to cad drawings is not really a problem.
But many states insist that to "sign" the drawings you must use an electronic revision approval system (ERA). This is some kind of encrypted software that is embeds the signature within the file at the programmatic level such that any changes in the document will result in the document not printing, or exploding (my joke).
So - finally - my question:
I've been tempted in the past to simply scan and apply my seal/signature into the cad drawing file - and then create pdf's from that - and only send the pdf's to the client. But technically, someone could "tamper" with the pdf somehow and change a detail with my seal remaining on it. But if we printed out the full sized sheets, signed and sealed the drawings by hand, then scanned them in to pdf documents you'd end up with the same dang thing.
What are you out there doing with sealing and signing plans?
The encryption software is somewhat expensive in that we understand that each engineer in the office that signs/seals plans has to have an individual key. Is that right? Or can the whole office have one key?
In years past, when drafting was done on paper/linen/mylar, the engineers were directed by state laws to hand seal (or sometimes emboss) and hand sign and date each drawing.
We then retained possession of the drawings and only blueprints/blueline copies were created which also had the seal/signature on them. It was essentially impossible to change the blueprints/bluelines.
As Cad rolled in, the typical approach was to print out mylars (initially) of plans and still hand seal/sign as before.
Then the electrostatic printers came out where large sheets could be printed out on paper with black ink. We then had the task of wet sealing/signing numerous copies of plans.
Today, many times consultants attempt to share there plans with the team and forward them to their client/architect in pdf form. Applying a PE seal to cad drawings is not really a problem.
But many states insist that to "sign" the drawings you must use an electronic revision approval system (ERA). This is some kind of encrypted software that is embeds the signature within the file at the programmatic level such that any changes in the document will result in the document not printing, or exploding (my joke).
So - finally - my question:
I've been tempted in the past to simply scan and apply my seal/signature into the cad drawing file - and then create pdf's from that - and only send the pdf's to the client. But technically, someone could "tamper" with the pdf somehow and change a detail with my seal remaining on it. But if we printed out the full sized sheets, signed and sealed the drawings by hand, then scanned them in to pdf documents you'd end up with the same dang thing.
What are you out there doing with sealing and signing plans?
The encryption software is somewhat expensive in that we understand that each engineer in the office that signs/seals plans has to have an individual key. Is that right? Or can the whole office have one key?






RE: Electronic PE Sealing
The 3rd party signature/seal processes are rather expensive.
I currently use the Adobe signature system and send the encryption validation file to each recipient.
Ron
RE: Electronic PE Sealing
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: Electronic PE Sealing
Many Building Officials allow this when a job is in a push. I send them direct to the BO and follow up. Seems to work OK.
The only time I had a seal stolen was someone who simply copied it from a drawing and taped it to his own and then re-copied. Many years when things were quite lax.
I often use a "watermark" of some sort through the seal - usually the date or my name or clients name. It is not too easy to replicate that way.
RE: Electronic PE Sealing
Software exists to "unsecure" pdf's and while that would be the equivalent of someone altering my plans, making it harder to capture useful digital info is my goal.
That said, a typical drawing set for me might be six or eight drawings, not so much 30+ for your typical EOR.
I have seen folks sned out their signature in an unsecured pdf and even word form as well as one of two electronic seal copies, just floating around in the file.
Perhaps most folks would not know what to do with such a thing, but it could be dnagerous to the wrong person.
I am interested to see where this goes.
Daniel
RE: Electronic PE Sealing
And that's what it really is; ID theft. I'm not going to stop paying for stuff online just b/c of a small threat to my cc number.
If I email out dwgs with my electronic seal/sig on them, it's only to architects; but not to clients who aren't architects. I trust arch's to respect the idea of professional licensure
Anybody else who wants a dwg file gets it without even a title block. Not only will I not give out my seal/sig electronically, but I don't want them having my electronic company logo or my client's electronic logo.
RE: Electronic PE Sealing
If someone really wants to steal my seal and my signiture they certainly can find the technology to do it. Heck, you can probably get a rubber stamp shop to make up a seal for a few bucks that says anything on it you want. Who actually cross checks registration numbers with actual people with actualy signitures anyway?
RE: Electronic PE Sealing
I'm not sure the engineering laws about seals are concerned with people ripping off my seal as they are in having a fail-safe way to ensure that I can't have an excuse to claim that the drawing that has my seal was tampered with after the fact.
In other words there are two basic types of mis-uses in the seal:
Type 1 -
Someone takes my seal and uses it on a project without me knowing about it - submits it to a city for permit - and thus basically poses as another engineer (me) to get a project built without paying full price for the engineering
Type 2 -
I sign and seal a set of plans and perhaps make a mistake on the design. Something bad happens and in the course of afixing blame on me I resort to the claim that the drawing was altered AFTER I sealed it and I thus cannot be held responsible for the structural failure.
I think type 2 is what they are most concerned with and therefore if I make a drawing with a pdf - and my seal is on it - there are ways to copy/alter/paste the drawing back into a pdf with my seal still on it.
RE: Electronic PE Sealing
An over cost conscious contractor cuts and pastes my original signed stamp to a new drawing for a different project, whites out the date and redates it, then makes a copy and submits it for permit.
The local BO caught it and called me. The expiration date the contractor chose was wrong (plus the white-out was evident). The contractor was reprimanded by the state board.
This is why I only will use original ink stamped and signed drawings. Original embossed work even better.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: Electronic PE Sealing
I know an engineer whose seal was stolen from a project and was transferred to a different design on the same project, which subsequently failed. Don't just throw up your hands and say "oh, well, I can't stop a crook."
RE: Electronic PE Sealing
The contractor was only reprimanded? What did he get, a fine? He should have lost is license.
RE: Electronic PE Sealing
The record copies were always embossed prints.
Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.
RE: Electronic PE Sealing
RE: Electronic PE Sealing
RE: Electronic PE Sealing
Yep, only a letter of reprimand. That burned me.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask