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Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

(OP)
Here is a simplified drawing of a circular plate with two hole patterns and a single hole. Case A, B show the same hole locations, and case C has the single hole, and one hole pattern, coincident to the 2nd & 3rd datum planes.

Is my interpretation of Y14.5 section 4.4.2, 4.4.3 correct?

There was a similar discussion in thread 169440

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=169440

But I'm not sure if my understanding from that is correct?

Thoughts?

Thanks

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

thread1103-267816: Tertiary Datums and Bolt Circles is probably quite relevant especially:

In the 1994 ASME standard, this is spelled out in paragraph 5.3.6.1 (or 7.5.4.1 of the 2009 edition):  "Where multiple patterns of features are located relative to common datum features not subject to size tolerances, or to common datum features of size specified on an RFS basis [that's you], they are considered to be a single pattern."

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

ligo,
Ken is right on this, your hole patterns can not rotate. You must abandon all logic when you think of this and just accept and follow the rules of the game as given. ASME Y14.5M-1994 (and 2009 too, I assume) as noted by Ken above defines what is called "the Simultaneous Requirement" it is just simply a rule of the game. ISO does not happen to play that way, so be it. If you are playing by our rules this is how the game is played. I do not happen to agree with this particular rule and feel it is a hold over from a earlier simpler time time when the desire was to minimise GD&T on prints and shows a bias to serve manufacturing (all can be made with one jig), but, if we do not all agree to play by the rules what is the point of a standard?
Frank

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

(OP)
Ah yes of course I see now that the two patterns are locked together in all 3 cases.  But how about in relation to the single hole present in all three cases and used as a datum in case B?  Can the two patterns together rotate relative to the single hole in Case A, but not in cases B & C?

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

ligo,

I would say that in all 3 cases the two patterns can rotate relative to the single hole only within specified position tolerance and that's all. In each example these patterns are tied to the single hole - only the way it was done is different. Cases A & C are classical examples of simultaneous requirements and there is no difference in interpretation of these two. Case B is introducing third datum feature but this changes nothing in terms of location relationship of patterns and the hole.

I think it would be good to discuss about this on a specific case that you are probably dealing with, because the topic of simultaneous requirements is so vast that we could probably talk about it for hours. I mean it would be good to know more about how your component functions to decide if you need third datum feature and if you need simultaneous requirements at all.      

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

Frank,

What did you mean by saying:
"ISO does not happen to play that way, so be it."

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

(OP)
pmarc

So if both patterns and the hole can only move within positional tolerance in all 3 cases.  When does one need a Datum-C for clocking?  Examples in Y14.5 (fig. 4-6, 4-7) show a keyway as Dateum-C, but I'm failing to see the difference between the keyway in their example and my single hole.  

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

"or to common datum features of size specified on an RFS basis"

So if your datum B was specified at MMC, as is often the case with diameter datum features, then you'd explicitly need to add the clocking.

I might argue that when 'clocking' is important it's maybe best to explicitly specify it since while valid, relying on 'simultaneous' requirements means relying on your suppliers and everyone else to understand it's implications.  

I only realized its implications in this application recently, so I wonder how many other folks realize it.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

pmarc,
All I mean is the ISO has chosen to go another way on this, is all. Simultaneous requirements are not automatically applied and my latest ISO reference materials use "CZ" added into the individual tolerance reference frameworks next to the tolerance specification and material modifier to invoke a "simultaneous requirement" (common zone). I am sorry if I confused anyone by speaking of it like a game, but, I do think it is really an arbitrary issue, only made important by historical differences. Therefore I am trying to express that this is more of a "we all choose to play a game with a generally understood set of rules" and applying logic here is not really a factor. Philosophically, this is another area where I would agree with the ISO, in that, to me normal engineering logic (assume the worst) would default to their choice. I suspect it is a hold over from the same era as our old default practice of implied MMC on tolerances and datums (1973).
Frank
 

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

ligo,

- What I said is that the two patterns can move relative to the single hole within positional tolerance, not all of them together. I was only focusing on this relationship. All your 3 examples have the same meaning in terms of it.

- Tertiary datum is needed for clocking exactly in situations like the one shown in example 4-6 (1994 std.). But this is one way of dealing with the problem. Another would be to omit tertiary datum and specify positional tolerance for keyway and holes with relation to the same datum reference frame |A|B M|. By doing this you would have typical simultaneous requirement situation and then a configuration of toleranced features would have to be exactly the same as it is specified on a drawing. For sure this second option is much less popular than the first, but the geometrical interpretation is identical.

So in fact your examples presented both possibilities of obtaining the same result.

To read more about the second option (applied to a slightly different example) you can take a look at:
http://www.tec-ease.com/gdt-tips-view.php?q=126
This not only describes the idea of the concept but also gives some advantage/disadvantage comparison of both methods.

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

Frank,

Do you have access to ISO 5458 std? I have 1998 version in front of me and in paragraph 4.4 you'll find two situations described when the group of features should be considered as a single pattern. There is nothing about CZ there. Common zone concept is most often used in situations like flatness control to specify coplanarity of two or more surfaces. As you know in Y14.5 std. profile of surface does this.   

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

(OP)
pmarc,

- I understood "relative to the single hole within positional tolerance" but in my effort to be brief in my reply I over simplified, thank you for noticing and reiterating, I made it look like I misunderstood.

At this point I think I'm having a hard time envisioning a circumstance where a datum for clocking would be required.

Since you asked about the specific circumstances that bring up my "clocking datum" questions, here are 3 drawings: an assembly drawing, and 2 fabricated parts.

This is a vacuum chamber in which a directionally sensitive seismometer will be placed.  Orientation of the seismometer is critical, so there are features to align it to the base plate, and the base plate to next assembly up.  There are also orientation marks on the edge of the plate and cover for visual alignment.  These were made Datum-C originally because we wanted to make our alignment (clocking) intentions obvious.  Our fabricator says that Datum C is unnecessary, and if they tried to use the related datum feature (v-grove) to actually align to, it would be a very difficult setup.  Unfortunately our knowledge the details of how these items will be fabricated is very limited.

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

ligo,
By the way, the "simultaneous requirement" does not automatically apply to the lower level of composite tolerances.
Ken,
The simultaneous requirement applies "at the same material condition, as applicable" ASME Y14.5M-1994, 4.5.12, pg 70.
Not sure what "as applicable" means. The referenced figure in the paragraph is shown  on a datum framework referenced at MMC.
Frank

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

ligo,
 
In my opininion a datum scheme you have chosen for POD BASE (#1) should be revised. Basing on how the part functions my proposal would be as follows:
- Use 3 flat surfaces as you have now for primary datum. (According to Y14.5 standard you should specify profile of surface without any datum reference as a form control instead of flatness).
- And the tricky part - use 3 holes for a screw (#25) as secondary/tertiary datums. How it should be technically done? Again take a look at a hint:
http://www.tec-ease.com/gdt-tips-view.php?q=187
I think this will tell you a lot.
- Then specify positional tolerance for other holes with reference to these datums. I think projected tolerance zone concept (P) would work here.

By using similar datum scheme also for POD TOPHAT (#2) I think you will achieve what is needed - proper seismometer orientation with relation to the mounting surface.

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

pmarc,
I do not have access to that version currently. I do have an older version of that standard. What two options do they show?  I agree in general that the standard is the final "bible" ,however, all of these standards are also works in progress. The book I have was released in 2006.
Frank  

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

pmarc,
Thank you, judging from the page you have provided I would imply no real difference between ISO and ASME when identical datums and modifiers are stated and shown on a common axis.
Frank

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

(OP)
pmarc-
Thanks for your input, I completely agree with you about using profile on datum A. It's been a constant struggle for me to convince people not to use flatness in coplanarity scenarios. There is constant concern that fabricators will not understand or ignore a profile callout, but will understand the intention of a flatness callout.
I also like the solution you suggest for Datums B & C, I had looked at that tec-ease example earlier and thought that it might apply, But it's always easier and quicker to slightly modify what you have than to make changes that have to be explained and justified, when you don't have the full picture yourself.

 

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

ligo,

I know what you feel. I also very often face the situations when I am somehow forced to not specify something in accordance with the standard only because there is an assumption that somebody (fabricator, inspector or even other designer) will not understand it. And I am pretty sure that a lot of folks here have to face the same dilemmas.

But does this mean we should give up? Of course not. If we specify in a general note that a drawing is in accordance with e.g. Y14.5 std. we have to follow this one. This is a legal requirement for us and for everybody who uses such drawing, so manufacturers and inspectors are equally obliged to be familiar with the standard.

Therefore, as an example, if you specify flatness control of 3 surfaces and in the same time you follow Y14.5 std. you must be aware that in case of any legal troubles, the court for sure will not be on your side. You will be the guilty one, not a guy who told you that he does not understand profile of surface concept.   

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

Just a word of caution on the "simultaneous requirements" method being equivalent to the "clocking datum" method.  This equvalence is only true in certain cases, not in general.

In the Tec-Ease example, the two methods have the same meaning in terms of the gages that would result.  No argument there.  But they only have the same meaning because datum feature C was referenced at MMB, making datum feature shift available.

But in ligo's first example, datum feature C is referenced at RMB.  This means that Case B imposes a different control than Cases A and C.  In case B, the pattern of tolerance zones gets clocked to the axis of datum feature C with no datum feature shift.

So choosing a specific datum feature to control clocking is generally more restrictive than controlling the overall pattern "to itself" using simultaneous requirements.  The two methods are only equivalent in special cases.

Evan Janeshewski

Axymetrix Quality Engineering Inc.
www.axymetrix.ca

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

MMB = MMC?
RMB = RFS?

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

So, Evan, you are saying that the meaning of case B is different than A & C in terms of rotational relationship of two patterns relative to the single hole, am I right?

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

Sorry, yes, these are terms from ASME Y14.5-2009.  Datum features are now referenced at a particular "material boundary" instead of at a "material condition" as they were in '94.

MMB (Maximum Material Boundary) was MMC
LMB (Least Material Boundary) was LMC
RMB (Regardless of Material Boundary) was RFS

The considered feature is still referenced at MMC, LMC, or RFS.  

Evan Janeshewski

Axymetrix Quality Engineering Inc.
www.axymetrix.ca

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

ewh -- those are the new terms from the 2009 standard.  An "M" symbol after a datum reference is now "maximum material boundary," and no modifier after a datum reference is called "regardless of material boundary."

They did this because the datum feature that is being referenced with the "M" could also have its own geometric tolerance. Thus, the size of a functional gage (and any resulting "shift") would be based not on the true MMC, but on a worst-case boundary.

John-Paul Belanger
Certified Sr. GD&T Professional
Geometric Learning Systems

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

Now I am really confused... ASME Y15.4-2009 para 2.8 page 29 refers to the modifiers as still being RFS, MMC and LMC.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

But we're talking about the same symbol as applied to a datum reference. See the 2009 standard, Figure 3-11 at the top of page 42.  More detail is then given in paragraph 4.11.3 on page 59.  I agree it seems confusing, but once I learned the reasoning, it started to make sense.

John-Paul Belanger
Certified Sr. GD&T Professional
Geometric Learning Systems

RE: Rotational orientation on circular parts with cylindrical Datum

My head hurts...
Thanks!

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

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