Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
(OP)
A salesman was telling me that the latest is a meter installed at a large oil filled transformer that will continually monitor for gasses in the oil. He said Qualitrol makes it. I called. They don't.
Has anyone ever heard of or have experience with such a thing?
Has anyone ever heard of or have experience with such a thing?






RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
Morgan Schaffer - Calisto
Serveron (I wish I could remember the model)
You can even get the information online in real time from a remote location. Dynamic Ratings comes to mind, but I'm sure there are other companies that do this.
Be mindful that most units simply monitor Hydrogen (and oftwen moisture) and they DO NOT REPLACE YOUR ANNUAL DGA! There are several more advanced units that will monitor things like methane and acetylene. I still would not consider these as a substiute for an annual DGA. However the oil monitors can give you an early warning in case something is wrong with one of your transformers.
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If it is broken, fix it. If it isn't broken, I'll soon fix that.
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
ht
Regards
Marmite
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
What is a carrier gas? And why is that better?
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
ht
ausphil
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
Regards
Marmite
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
Purchasing a 10 year service contract for one of the monitors was quoted at 1.8 times the cost for the unit. The extra $4000 per year per monitor in O&M costs makes it hard to justify on all but our biggest transformers.
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
Apart from Kelman some other sources.
1) www.weidmann-electrical.com
2) www.kjdyna.com
3) www.lgom.com.cn
The last ones are from Korea and China.
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
In my experience, the units that detect Hydrogen only do a fair job of detecting a fault in time. But like I said earlier, this doesn't replace the need for a DGA annually or even biannually. You can go straight to Acetylene without seeing much Hydrogen in some cases.
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If it is broken, fix it. If it isn't broken, I'll soon fix that.
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
Most of the time you can count on doubling the price of anything for install. Unions do cost, and in my opinion in in the trades anyway add a layer of required safety that is sometimes seems high but shows its value by not getting anyone hurt....
9K, I mean 18K is much more reasonable.
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
Out units were $9,000 to buy and cost about $4-5K to install. We had the manufacturer connect them and set them up. We had our union workers install the boxes and fittings on the transformers.
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If it is broken, fix it. If it isn't broken, I'll soon fix that.
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
I thought the idea behind the gas in oil analysis is to see the trended data over a long period of time. The same thing for all the predictive maintenance gadgets we hope to install on the critical transformers. It's not just an alarming system at the transformer - that is the scenario we are hoping to eliminate.
In other words, the primary audience for this monitor will be the plant engineers and maintenance planners, not the operators. At least that is how I am conceptualizing this. If you have these installed at your plant...how do you use them?
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
However, the online monitors usually store a year's worth of data in each unit. Most units can be set up to alarm on absolute levels and trend data. Thus, if you set your alarm levels properly, you can simply download the historic data in the event of an alarm. The only thing on line monitoring does is eliminate somebody having to go outside and hook a laptop up to it.
The oil monitors real purpose is to tell you that it is time to take a DGA and determine if further investigation is necessary. At this point when you see an alarm, you take an oil sample and download a year's worth of trend data and use it in your analysis. The oil monitors are really an early warning system more than anything. It tells you that you COULD have a problem and you SHOULD investigate it.
I'm not telling you what you are planning to accomplish is incorrect. On line monitoring is a nice feature. However what I am saying is this level of installation might be unnecessary. Remember that this was introduced to you by a salesman who's job is to tell you all the wonderful things the device can do. This doesn't mean all of it should be used for every purpose.
What I'm suggesting is coming strictly from my experience first as an end user and now as a transformer manufacturer. If you can add on line real time monitoring inexpensively, by all means do it. But if it is going to increase the cost of the installation 3 fold, it may not be worth it. Just food for thought.
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If it is broken, fix it. If it isn't broken, I'll soon fix that.
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
Thanks for the insight on how you actually use these.
I'm also gathering data into the world of computers servers...where I'm no expert either. But I was thinking the data from these monitors was to be stored on the server not on the device itself.
As another option I was hoping as they do with the relays that protect the transformers, see about locating the monitors inside the Control Room itself. The Control Room is between 100'-1000' away depending upon which transformer we're talking about.
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
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RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
My preference is the Morgan Schaffer Calisto 2. It takes a 3 hour time average of the gasses in the oil and also heat it up to a consistent temperature so the readings are more accurate. It's a bit more expensive and takes a bit more work to install (you need 2 free oil valves on your transformer), but it is easy to use and quite accurate.
The devices aren't instantaneous. In fact, checking them once a week is plenty. Just put an item on your operator's check list to write down the values on the unit. The nice thing about the Calisto is you can move it several feet away from the transformer so it can be accessed without getting inside the transformer cage (if there is one).
prc hit the exact point I was making. If you see an alarm on your oil monitor, you can take frequent oil samples which are very accurate and cost very little. Now that you have a $100k estimate from the first vendor, you can look like a savvy engineer by having two installed for less than that and achieve the same goal by adding a little procedure.
If you can give me some historic DGA results, I can help you with where to set your alarms.
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If it is broken, fix it. If it isn't broken, I'll soon fix that.
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
And I was told that all of the transformers are as important as just the main ones. So the question was asked if one monitor could be used for multiple transformers? At some point I realize these are questions for vendors...
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?
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If it is broken, fix it. If it isn't broken, I'll soon fix that.
RE: Transformer gas in oil analysis monitor/live data is this available?