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Junior Engineer Woes
8

Junior Engineer Woes

Junior Engineer Woes

(OP)
I have two years of job experience with the same employer, one in the field and one in the design office.  This is my first full-time job after college.

In the design office I've primarily been a draftsman.  The majority of my time has been spent cleaning up CAD files created by ill-trained, less computer savvy, senior level engineers.  I've gotten very good at it...

It's grunt work.  I don't want to specialize in correcting other peoples CAD mistakes, yet there seems to be no end in sight.  I've put up with it for a year.  Before I start seeking other employment opportunities I'd like to know if anyone else has been in the same boat.

Perhaps I'm just another plebe from generation whine, living in the age of entitlement.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

I'm not sure with others, but the first five years will be grunt work.  Not until you get some design (and even some years) under your belt that the manager will give you any kind of real engineering work.  However, take this time as a learning experience on how the company works.  Work and projects are cyclical. You have to keep a look out of when is the next big job and try to pursue your manager to get you into that project.  Also, at your reviews, you have to tell your boss you want more responsibilities.  If you don't ask/tell them, they won't know what you want to do.

Oh and your situation is about the same in any generation.
 

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

A year or so of this isn't too unreasonable.  However, I'd definitely start asking about opportunities for advancement.

That doesn't mean you'll be leading the design of the next big thing.  However, maybe you'll get to directly assist a more senior engineer working alongside them rather than just picking it up when they're 'done'.  Or it might mean being given a small aspect of the project to be your 'baby'.

Are you doing detail drafting or just modeling?  If drafting then my guess is that after 1 year you still have a lot to learn - if you choose to.

Only you know all the details of the situation, but nicely asking for some more challenging work doesn't sound unreasonable from what you say.

If they say 'no you're a CAD grunt no more' then perhaps actively start pursuing other avenues.

(By the way, the fact you even ask about the 'whine' suggests either you don't need to worry, or you're just somewhat smooth so should look to advance in sales or management.)

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What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

Quote:

I don't want to specialize in correcting other peoples CAD mistakes, yet there seems to be no end in sight

Darn right there's no end in sight.  Plenty of good money to be made doing it, too.  It's not engineering, but it has the makings of a business.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

(OP)
Five years seems daunting.  This post was motivated by only four additional months of CAD damage-control work being assigned to me.

KENAT, it's drafting; state DOT contract plans, specifically highway bridge sets.  There is MUCH more to learn.

Aside from being insanely bored (repositioning call-out leaders, changing line weights and styles, and adjusting base mapping clip-masks for nine hours straight is excruciating) I'm afraid of being pigeonholed; I'll be up for my PE in but two years and have had barely two months of solid engineering experience.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

Have you talked to your supervisor?  Ask him what plans he has for your engineering growth and training.  If you don't say anything about it, why would they change anything?

TTFN

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RE: Junior Engineer Woes

As you are keen on getting your PE you need to speak up sooner than later, since some states don't count time spent drafting toward the experience requirement - you need to look this up for your own state.

Do remember it's a tough job market right now so finding a job where you actually get to do more hardcore engineering may not be easy.  Also they may be less inclined to accommodate your wishes than when the job market is better.  At least the experience you are getting is fairly relevant.

Do a little research on if time spent drafting counts toward PE in your state before you talk to your supervisor.

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RE: Junior Engineer Woes

Beware the trap many young engineers fall into...  Entry-level engineers often learn CAD software in college, and become immediately valuable in a design firm because they are fast at CAD, not too expensive, and eager to learn and please.  I worked with one guy for over a year and a half before I learned he was an engineer, not a CAD tech.  As he was trying to climb out of his pigeon-hole, there were many instances of "Can you just help out with..."  I finally told him he may have to consider moving to another company to be thought of as an engineer.

That being said, The Tick is absolutely right.  Not everyone ends up where they thought they would.  Many are much better off for it.

Having good CAD skills is extremely valuable for a structural engineer, so don't begrudge this learning experience.  Having good engineering skills, however, is even more important.  You may even think that the engineering tasks are grunt work.  Some of them are, but it's the best way to learn.

Expect some CAD assignments, but only you will know when "engineering opportunities" are passing you by.  Employers may say a lot of things to try to kepp you content, but actions are what will speak the loudest.


 

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

Keep in mind that those drawings you are correcting are the product of your work, and the quality of the drawings your firm produces defines its own quality.

Count yourself lucky that you can correct drawings by typing.  Doing it by erasing vellum or scratching ink off linen was no fun, especially when you made a hole in the drawing.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

(OP)
If this is just paying my dues then so be it.  I have a very good relationship with my supervisor and I want it to continue that way.

I think I should talk to him and convey that I'm concerned I might be falling into said trap.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

Also, pay attention to _what_ you're (re)drawing, and come to understand why it's done the way it is.

Don't start offering to redesign everything until you learn the difference between a bad design and a good compromise.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

anominal (Structural)

Look at it this way. At least you are working with a cad file.
  You could be working with a sketch drawn on the back of a cigarette packet. Laying this down on Vellum or Mylar, then dealing with, " That was not quite what I meant, this goes over here."
B.E.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

4
I think what you are doing is very valuable experience. You are just too inexperienced to realize it. What you are doing is very helpful to help you learn how to organize a set of drawings. Instead of just picking up mark-ups, you need to also keep your eyes open to how the drawings are actually put together. Where are the general notes, where are the typical details, where are the plans, where are the sections where are the elevations? How do you lay out the different bridge elements with respect to the different baselines, etc? When do you show the topographic contour lines on the foundation and layout plans, and when don't you? It is very important to know how to put together a set plans that look good and flow well. Line weights, call-outs, font-types, etc. are very important in making the final set of plans represent the final design. It is a very valuable asset to be able to model bridges in 3-D, do multi-modal analysis on the computer, be able to crank out 10 inches worth of calculation pages, etc. But as design consultants, nobody cares about our calculations. We get paid for producing a set of drawings that a contractor can take and build a bridge without asking for any clarifications or submitting any RFI's. That will never happen, of course. But it is critical that our drawings be as perfect as we can make them. In a design consultant's office, the most brilliant engineering mind is useless if the person with that mind cannot compile a set of drawings.

While it is true what others have said about young engineers with CAD skills getting pigeon-holed into drafting work, I think this is seldom the case in most decent firms. If yours is a "decent" firm, you will soon transition into performing some real engineering work when your superiors feel you are ready for it. When I first started out, all I did was use a red pen to mark RFI's on record set drawings for a year. I hated it and often thought of quitting. I hung in there and was doing "real" engineering work shortly. I ended spending almost ten years with that firm and it was the best experience I ever had.

Hang in there. If you've been doing this for a year as you say, then you should soon be moving on to other tasks. If not within a few months, then it may be time to move on to another firm. If that ends up being the case, this has still been very valuable experience and you should make the most of it while you can.

Good luck.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

Don't let the job define your limits.  Watch for other things going on around you and make the time to understand other people's projects.  When I was starting out I paid a lot of attention at staff meetings and discussions over lunch and in the hall.  Every so often I would be able to say to the guys on Project A that there was a development on Project W that might have a bearing on what they're doing.  Doesn't happen often, but just a couple of times and you'll find yourself on Project A instead of fixing drawings.  It only takes initiative to pay attention to the stuff around you.

The only people I've seen permanently pigeonholed have been people who really deserved it.  They saw the menial task as their "job" and applied their imagination and enthusiasm to their after hours hobby instead of to their job.  People who take a crap job as an opportunity to learn about the company's activities and try to find small and subtle ways to make them better don't get stuck in a dead-end job.

In other words, don't "tell" your boss you are ready for more responsibility, "show" him that you are taking the initiative to assume more.  Everybody hates the "I hired on to be an Engineer not a toady" discussion and I can't recall a single time that it did any good.  Most people like the "I wonder if the proposed DOT reg will impact the way you have to do XYZ" as long as it is with someone on the project and not a manager over the Project Manager.

David

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

Specialeddie said what I was going to say.  It used to be that most structural engineers started out "on the boards".  That's how they learned how to creat a coherent set of plans.  One of my first assignments as an engineer was to draft up a whole set of plans for a two span highway bridge.  It was plastic lead pencil on mylar in those days so I got a big lump on my right middle finger and got covered in eraser shavings each day.  But what excellent experience this was.  Later, I rose to leadership positions because I knew how to establish the vision for the finished product.  Today I work for an owner and review many sets of plans, and most have much room for improvement.  I wish more junior engineers were doing what you are doing.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

Before this turns into the Monty Pythons sketch... body panel drawings used to be drawn on aluminium sheet with a scalpel and were corrected with a ball peen hammer. So forget the sooking.

There is nothing wrong with spending a year learning how the drawing office works. There is a lost opportunity if all you have learned is how to correct drawings.



 

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Junior Engineer Woes

In my place of employment, there is no need for a position such as described by the OP, since neither our CAD department nor our engineers make any drawing errors.

We prefer to call them "revisions".

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

It is common to be spending most of your day drafting for your first few years.  Some people think it's good experience but I think you should try to mimize your drafting time as much as possible (I know it's easier said than done).  After 7 years of drafting, I design my projects the way a drafter sees a project rather than an engineer.  I set my proposed property lines and buildings based on where I can better fit my text labels.  I only know how to design by drafting my own work.  I wouldn't even know how to lay out a site on paper and hand it off to someone.  Remember that there's nothing more permanent than temporary

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

As you correct errors, build a codified set of Work Instructions to cover as much ground as needed to initiate others, train newbies, and prod the lazy to design right.

I wrote 14 WI under such circumstances. Writing WI is supposed to be the function of experts, but your contributions now will support your efforts to relocate later or gain promotions.  

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

a few months of CAD is good in my opinion.. i had to learn drafting softwares like autocad, microstation, pds(frameworks) and pdms in my line of work..

but of course the main software you should be using is staad or risa3d or similar..

 

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

anominal,
After two years experience, it's time for some advancement. As others have stated, discuss with your supervisor or mentor. If discussions do not bear fruit, seek advancement elsewhere.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

A little bit of drafting isn't bad.  And with the economy the way it still is, it is better than being unemployed.

But, speak with your supervisor and ask about getting more responsibility.  And be realistic.  Don't fall for the "he's a nice guy and will do what he promises".  I was in a small company and doing a lot of drafting.  I stuck with it b/c of some of the promises made.  I found out later that one of the roles I was promised, was also promised to another guy, and it never even materialized.

And don't believe that business is going to pick up simply because the boss says so.  I fell for that.  What a disaster.    Look into the industry yourself if you have to.  But, unless you are 100% sure an opportunity will come up for you within that company, start looking for a job while you have one.
 

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

At my 2nd job I was basically taking the project manager's mylar drawings, scanning that and tracing properly into CAD.  What I soon found out after blindly doing this and asking why this or that is happening, is that the CAD people were literally tracing.  I then started talking to the PM more about this and learned how to design.  He slowly would let me take stuff home and try my hand at drawing on mylars.  After a few years of this I can design a large subdivision straight into CAD.

Fixing CAD errors I now see is pretty valuable and a positive is that you have a chance to probably see lots of different types of plans and styles.

A lot of people didn't know I had a degree plus I look much younger.  I wouldn't mind that, as long as the higher ups know what you are, that's all that matters.  Of course you can't just go in every day to work and not try to learn and talk to others.  Talking about projects is where your supervisor will realize he might be able to teach you how to do more than CAD file fixing.

Goodluck trying to find another job right now.  It has to get much worse before things will get better.

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com
http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

ANOMINAL

Let me predict your future, but before I do let me just say that with whatever you do you must always do it to your best abilities.  Never compromise, so for now continue doing the best you possibly can.
Now for my prediction.  You will move on from your current position if you have enough guts to finally do it.  You will start designing and you will get raises (provided the economy allows for that).  You will thank your boss for the opportunity for making more money for him than you take home.  If you get married you will force your wife to work so you can enjoy your "life style".  By the time you retire you will continue working because the economy didn't work for you as you had planned, social security is gone, and your investments didn't provide you with the returns you had hoped.
How dare I predict this?  Because 95% or more of the people reading this post will end up in the same situation.
Sorry.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

I'm surprised after only two years you know so much.

That omniscience must be a terrible burden.

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

Funny, there have been so many threads with responses that appear to look down on drafting/drafters or getting pigeon holed as a CAD Jockey etc. that I figured most responders would think a year was far too long to spend doing this work.

I got the impression from the OP that it was literally just fixing mistakes etc. so figured much more than a year of literally just being given these tasks is pushing it.  If he's acting more as an assistant to these Engineers, taking some responsibility for overall preparation of the drawings and so on then it may well warrant much more than a year.

Sure it's in part up the the OP to make the most of whatever opportunities he's given, but there's a point where you just need better opportunities.

 

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RE: Junior Engineer Woes

[I suppose it would be completely off-topic to question the various assumptions underlying the "force your wife to work" comment...]

Hg
 

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RE: Junior Engineer Woes

Usually the wife CHOOSES to work and forces us to accept it because it's HER lifestyle that we, as engineers, cannot afford to sustain...

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

Maybe I am just showing my age, but I do not remember seeing a requirement to be proficient at CAD in a senior engineers job description.
 The ability to calculate and communicate design requirements by verbal means, sketches, or other methods, was, in the description.
 Draughtsmen and subordinates are used to assist the senior engineer in his efforts.
I think the OP's comments about senior level Engineers being ill trained are inappropriate. It is most likely that these people are self taught in the local CAD system so they have a better way of explaining what they want to their juniors.
B.E.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

"How dare I predict this?  Because 95% or more of the people reading this post will end up in the same situation."

So the reason why you believe that your prediction is accurate is because you predict the very same thing for at least 95% of readers?

That's no proof.
Do you resent being forced to work?

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

B.E.
You're reading 'ill-trained' in a negative way.
Surely 'self taught' can be a sub-set of 'ill-trained'?

I don't do CAD and agree that it's not necessary, but I can see that it would be useful.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

Drafting is important.  Without drafting, there is no meaningful communication of design, and design is just daydreaming.

I learned to draft mostly by machining parts from hundreds of drawings.  Through the magic of poor drafting, I had the privilege of producing thousands of parts that met print specifications but failed to function as desired.  Why?  Because the person drawing did not know how to ask for what he needed.  I can't read minds; I can only read prints.

Now it's my turn to draw, and I know how to ask for what I need.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

Berkshire's post is more like I was expecting.

I don't believe that senior engineers necessarily need to know how to draft to a high level, I especially don't think they need to know how to use the latest CAD software at expert level.

However, having some appreciation of it is a good thing.  Knowing that their drafter lackey has actually specified the parts correctly etc. and accepting that occasionally things get done 'that way' because of limitations of the CAD package but sometimes because of limitations of the CAD Jockey etc. are highly beneficial.

The best Senior Engineer we have here is useless at CAD (well, he's picked up a little over the last few months) but fairly good at knowing a good drawing and what needs to be in it etc.  This is more than I can say for many here, they might be OK on the CAD package but their drawings - oh dear.

I got told at a job fair just a couple of weeks ago by a potential employer that they don't employ many 'drafters' any more and the engineers are expected to do their own drafting/CAD.  (This conversation conspired because I foolishly put 'Design Enginer/CAD Draftsman' on my resume thinking having another potential role would open doors not slam them in my face!)

Many of the 'great' engineers of the first half of last century, and probably before, started out on the board.  I'm thinking RJ Mitchell, Camm, the guy that designed the Titanic (Assuming you accept it sinking was the operators fault not his) etc.  

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RE: Junior Engineer Woes

So, is it only in Canada where the engineers are completely "CAD Stupid" and wouldn't know how to draw a straight line even if they duct-taped a ruler onto the monitor?

Seriously...

How is the work culture in the U.S. and overseas with respect to the level of CAD skills required from an engineer?  I perceive that it is more common than not, whereas here, it's essentially nonexistent.  Personally, I think thad CAD experience and that skill set would be of great benefit to all engineers, and I wonder why we don't see more of that here.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

In my previous job I made the initial 3D models and analysed them for package and function, then threw them over a metaphorical wall to a draftie who turned them into real parts.

In Australia, at my current job, I don't use CAD at all. I'd much rather sit with an experienced draftie, get him to understand what I need, than try and duplicate his experience with manufacturing (most of our experienced drafties came in via the toolroom, and have an enormous knowledge of manufacturing processes).


 

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Junior Engineer Woes

That's one of several things that changed since the mid-80's, when engineers got computers to do word processing and detailed design.  It used to be that we'd send off hand-written memos to the AAs, who'd then convert into finished copies which we'd have to redline.  Likewise, senior engineers were supposed to concentrate on conceptual design, and detailing was left to the drafters or junior engineers.  

We write way fewer memos, so the inefficiency of hunt&peck hasn't gotten us behind on that front, but I'm uncertain whether forcing the senior engineers to do the detailed design was an overall gain.  Supposedly, our overall productivity is up, but I'd like to see some hard data.  In some respects, the real advantage is that the senior engineers are busy all the time, compared to them idling while someone else did the detailed design that the senior engineers would check at a much later date.

TTFN

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RE: Junior Engineer Woes

Apsix
You are right I was reading "ill trained" in a negative way.
  It gave a connotation of being taught by somebody who did not know what they were doing.
  Upon reading your comment I realize that "self taught" also falls straight into that category.
B.E.
 
 

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

In my experience it is easier to change jobs to get the right kind of skills you need than to try to pursuade your current employer that you should be doing a job that you wasn't hired for. I started out as a draughtsman and relocated several times to get the experience that I wanted.  

Chris
www.value-design-consulting.co.uk

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

I agree with those that say drafting skills are important.  Although from Canada, I am able to draft and draw things (jk, lots of Canadians can draw).  I find it helps me think when I do design or evaluate something.  I took it in high school and university, and although the university course was weak, the high school one was great and I'm glad I took it.

When I started my recent job, I asked for CAD, and it was apparently a mindblowing question.  I was told we already had a guy that could draw.

I ended up with an AutoCAD viewer, which although isn't all I need, is better than nothing.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

I didn't enjoy my first year or two in industry very much as it was mainly data analysis of material samples and was incredibly dull but I appreciated that this was my bedding in time..

I needed to prove my drive, commitment and knowledge to a close-knit team of highly capable engineers from many different disciplines so I kept my head down, chin up and treated every task, no matter how menial, as if it was the most important job ever done.

This attitude was noticed by my line management and now, 8 years later I am working in a research team with a substantial budget and I feel I am a valued member of the team.

Everytime a graduate comes in he/she is given the data analysis/processing tasks I used to do and I see myself there grinding out the figures but I saw something else that everyone should be aware of upon starting that first job. My management team watch the new kids constantly to determine one thing.. ATTITUDE.!! If you come in, grind the work out and stay positive, enthusiastic and committed the promotion is there to be had. If you come in and sit at your desk with a face like a pitbull eating a bee don't expect to be staying there long or gaining any respect or promotion.

Engineering is a dynamic industry where constant change is a given. An ability to stay creative, commited, conscientious, enthusiastic and HAPPY even when doing the dullest of jobs will be noticed and rewarded or the company will lose you... and they know it..

Please don't take this as a personal sleight but if after two years your company has not promoted you or even discussed your career prospects its maybe time to use some reflective practice to see if it is you or them that is the problem.


 

If it aint broke, break it, take it apart and make it better.. Thats engineering

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

(OP)
I specifically resent the comment about omniscience.  I've known everything for at least a year now.

Thank you to everyone else.

I postponed running up on my boss and risking faux pas in favor of discussing it at my yearly review.  That should be plenty of time to mull it over.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

apsix

by proof is statistics and recent articles.  There are many more for many industrialized nations.

http://www2.journalnow.com/content/2008/oct/31/more-people-working-past-retirement-age/
http://www.quintcareers.com/working_beyond_retirement.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/6243181/Older-people-to-work-longer-and-default-retirement-age-to-be-scrapped-says-Dame-Joan-Bakewell.html

Excuses are used "I want to work".  How many have said on their death beds "I wish I could have spent more time at the office."  People's main regrets is not spending time with loved ones.  That's what people really want to do, not work.

Also, I do not resent work.  For now it bring in income while I build my business on the side, with my wife and family.  I resent a system that didn't teach me how to do that earlier in life.

Anominal
For now, good call.  Learn all you can, and do all you can.  Approach your boss with a positive attitude.  Rehearse your questions and concerns and learn to state them in a positive way.  "Your attitude will determine your altitude."

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

I know that for myself anytime that I am drafting I can't really be designing.  

I have to run the numbers to design the beam, and while running the numbers I can't draw the beam in AutoCAD.  

It does not seem efficient to design a beam, draw it and design the next beam, but to design all the beams give the designs to a drafter to draw and while he is drawing I can design all the columns. Otherwise, I have to wait to design the columns until I finished drawing the beams.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

anominal,

I assume you are in the US.  In my opinion, your position is not typical though not unheard of.  Though drafting is important in engineering, that is what drafters/designers are for, not engineers.  I give my sketches, or sometimes just my thoughts, to a good designer.  As an engineer, it helps to know drafting standards though, but it sounds like you have 0 years experience toward your PE.

Someone else offered a prediction, so I'll offer mine.  You will eventually leave where you are at. I'm guessing it is a small place with less than 25 employees in an office off the beaten path. You will realize this whole other engineering world and the excitement (yeah, I like my job) of actually sizing steel and concrete.  You will look back and wonder how you ever ended up at that sweatshop/drag on my career/(fill in the blank).

I have worked for 6 different places in my career. I have heard of places like yours, but fortunately never worked in any.  We would have someone like you checking calcs.  That gets mind numbing itself, but it is ENGINEERING. There are ways to pay your dues that involve what you went to college for.

There is something better out there.  When you are ready, choose carefully and ask the right questions, not just what's the salary. Good Luck!

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

We have no drafters, only senior engineers and junior engineers, and that's been true at the last 4 out of 5 companies I worked for.  The only company that was different was a semiconductor company, and the handoff was for the physical layout of the chip, which was different than the electrical circuit design, so it made sense.  The CAD layout people were more like artists than engineers.

TTFN

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RE: Junior Engineer Woes

I think I am seeing an argument here about the necessity of drafting knowledge before aspiring to have a word other than junior before engineer on your business card.

What I read from the OP was the following
"I am in my first job after college and I am doing grunt work which I think that after one year, I should have moved on"

I see this as the manure flowing downhill scenario.  What I don't see is if there are other junior engineers there and what they are doing.  Some jobs HAVE to be done and it usually falls on the new guy or the lowest qualified guy. The upper management equation is that the cheapest labor gets the grunt work.

Because of the economy the company may not be growing as quickly so you may find yourself mired in this position for a lot longer than you think.  But in time you'll look back.

Many of us here didn't have forums where we could ask questions like this.  We took what our bosses gave is at the start and ran with it.  It was a boost in our confidence when we finally got a piece of a project or even the whole project itself, but I can guarantee you it wasn't in our second week on the job.

I have learned so much "engineering" that really isn't necessary for my current role, but that's the beauty of this career.  Unlike the bean-counters of the world, you can have five completely different days every week.  And everything you learn will help you in some way down the road.

Take this current "grunt work" and learn from it.  You may have something learned to bring to your next position, or company.

drawn to design, designed to draw

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

(OP)

Quote (Waidesworld):

Take this current "grunt work" and learn from it
I'm learning industry from it, but how many of these skills will be transferable?  Whether or not it is engineering experience is debatable, and it may not help abit when sitting for my P.E. This isn't me turning my nose up at grunt work, it's looking out for my best interests.  If I'm being outright slighted... I'll go somewhere else.  The overwhelming response has been:

"You may be being taken advantage of... a little.  But this is common.  There are still learning opportunities.  Be smartly proactive about your advancement"

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

But if you can't efficiently draft how can you gauge the drafter's time you are giving work to?  This was a huge dilemma at one of my jobs as the owner constantly yelled at everyone for taking forever to do something.  I then explained exactly how long it took for each item then added them up, and he stopped yelling at me.  I guess the others didn't think of doing this?

I have worked with other structurals in the same office on civil projects and they generally drafted their designs pretty quick and gave the simple tasks to drafters to finish up.

I speak mainly coming from a civil/grading background as looking at a plan, sketching a basic design and drafting/designing straight into the computer is way faster than anything else I have seen.  And goodluck designing a retaining wall and having a drafter draw up a retaining wall profile.  This is probably not the case for other disciplines as calcs are more important up front.

What kind of structural work are you doing??  Either way, realize you have to pay your dues before you can start designing and/or leading a project

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com
http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

In my early days I sometimes asked myself, "Am I doing engineering work right now?" and there's no real answer.  Sometimes during this "grunt" period you build relationships with others and learn how to deal with certain individuals.  This are not essential engineering skills, but they ARE skills that you will need to advance in your company or any company for that matter.

drawn to design, designed to draw

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

Besides drafting, you are in a position to see the results of many engineers' work.  You could spend some mental energy evaluating the work you are given or even discussing it with the senior engineers (who are senior because they have been doing this much longer).  You can observe a lot just by watching.  You could learn even more if you get tem talking.

...or

...you can continue as you are.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

(OP)
Continue as I am?

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

(OP)
Sorry Tick, I interpreted that as being an insinuation that I was just mindlessly going about my work without attempting to take anything from it.

I do try to engage my betters and learn from example.  New guy on the scene asking questions can elicit various responses; some people react better to questions than others.  It's a balancing act knowing when to pursue what you don't know and when to shut up and just do the work.  There should come a point when I'm ready to take on greater responsibilities.  This thread and my own personal barometer suggest that I should be gently prodding my manager for different kinds of work; I don't know everything about what I'm doing right now, but I have a firm foundation in it.  I may not want to know much more than I have to.

If in fact this is all that is in store for me at this company, I need to get OUT.  Paying my dues?  Ok.  Learning valuable skills?  I'll buy it.  Endangering future opportunities for the sake of keeping status quo?  Risking being pigeon holed?  Hell no.

I have a feeling my super will be responsive.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

Two years isn't a long time, unless it's your first two years.  Things are probably progressing at a healthy pace, but slower than your patience or desire.

Desire is good.  If you are not driven from inside, there's no use kicking the outside.

Keep in mind that not much is really happening for anybody.  The economy is soft, and available opportunities will reflect that.  People are staying in jobs they normally wouldn't keep.  Hiring and expansion is slow, and growth and promotions are slow too.  Personally, I have seen the market value of my core skills drop significantly.

Start to worry if the next hire is senior and you have one more chin to wipe.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

I have junior engineers working under me and I am also responsible for mentoring our summer interns.  While I am sure my employer expects me to tow the company line, off the record I am very honest with my advice for the junior guys, and one thing I stress is to consider not spending too much time at your first job right out of school.  How can you figure out what you like and what you really want to do if you don't actually go and do it?  I also feel that the best way to get a promotion, additional responsibilities, and most importantly, more money, is by changing jobs.   It is very easy to get pigeonholed.  If you were the summer intern and you have been hired now that you have your degree, guess what?   Most of the folks in the office are still going to think of you as the summer intern.  I once worked with a guy who was a lab tech that got his engineering degree at night school.  Guess what?  Even though he had his degree he was still treated like he was just a lab tech.  He had to leave the company after being there for 15 years in order to get to do real engineering work.

I will also second what was mentioned about attitude earlier.  I make no bones about the fact that the tasks I assign to the new guys are crap work that I don't want to do, but that somebody has to do them.  I tell them to think of these assignments as a test, and they are being "graded" on their ability to get the tasks done correctly, with minimal guidance, on time, and all the while having a good attitude.  I remind them that successful completion of this "test" will lead to them being assigned bigger, more interesting tasks, and that eventually they can be responsible for entire projects.  We had one kid right out of school that had an attitude problem.  He thought the work I was assigning him was beneath him, and while he never came right out and said it, it was plainly obvious in his behavior.   He really screwed himself because since he thought these menial tasks were beneath him and he never really put in the effort to learn to do them correctly.  So not only did his attitude stink, but most of the tasks he was assigned were done wrong.  He is no longer with us, and frankly I was glad to see him shown the door.

I will add a final bit of advice:  Before deciding if you want to try and get more responsibility and interesting work at your current employer, or find a new job, you need to take a long hard look at the structure of your existing company.   Is there a career path at your current employer?  Does advancement depend on somebody else leaving or retiring?   Keep in mind that if you work for a very small firm, this might be it.  Ten years from now you will still be doing the same tasks you are doing today and your only chance to move up is if someone above you leaves and you can fill their position.   This was the negative side I saw to the only small company I worked for.  There was really no interesting work going on and little room for advancement.   So I left, which gets me back to what I said in the first paragraph about trying different things.  My first job out of school was for a large defense contractor.  I didn't like being just a number.  My next job was the total opposite, I was one of only five engineers in the entire company and I saw no future, so next move was to more of a medium sized company that had an engineering department of about 50 people.  This is where I found that I enjoy a medium sized company because they tend to have the career opportunities of a big organization, but they are small enough that you can be more than just a number.  
 

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

spongebob,

Regarding your last paragraph - AMEN! You nailed it about the company size (and my work history also).  I tell the new engineers that it's a bad thing that they started working where I work because eventually they are going to get the idea to go somewhere else just to find that things are better here.

At the consulting firm that I work for, I will always get to do some actual design, and I love that.  I do get the opportunity to get progressively greater responsibilities and job titles.   I would recommend companies of, I'd say, 75-250 people.

But the small firm I worked for was a great opportunity for me for several years.  I learned a lot due to a (forced) close relationship with an incredibly talented engineer who, if I had one, I'd call my mentor.  Forced only because there were only 3-6 engineers at one time.  I got some good experience, but in retrospect it could never have been permanent.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

Interesting, I actually had better career development possibilities at my previous small company (at least small engineering dept) than my current larger one.

I know we like to make these sweeping generalizations about company size but I think there's still quite a bit of variation even amongst similar sized companies.

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RE: Junior Engineer Woes

There's indeed a huge variation among companies, and over time as well.  We've had a fairly stable group for about 4 yrs, and now, about 20% of the group has decided to move on.

TTFN

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RE: Junior Engineer Woes

From Spongebob007:

"I will also second what was mentioned about attitude earlier.  I make no bones about the fact that the tasks I assign to the new guys are crap work that I don't want to do, but that somebody has to do them.  I tell them to think of these assignments as a test, and they are being "graded" on their ability to get the tasks done correctly, with minimal guidance, on time, and all the while having a good attitude.  I remind them that successful completion of this "test" will lead to them being assigned bigger, more interesting tasks, and that eventually they can be responsible for entire projects."

At my company: "oh look, since you like grunt work and you did such a good job, here's more of it!!"

 

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

As an employer, I would give junior members of my staff various tasks. I would then while pretending not to pay any attention to them, note their attitudes and how they applied themselves to the tasks at hand.
  Unlike Spongebob007 I did not tell them they were being graded. None the less that was, precisely, what I was doing.
The ones that handled assignments competently got given more interesting tasks,the ones that copped an attitude or did not do well, stayed at the level they were at, or eventually left, or were let go.
B.E.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

anominal, my 2cents:

I was in the exact same position about a year ago, doing mostly drawings and the like for about a year and a half, and before that, while still studying I was a steel worker.

Got a job at another company and am climbing the ladder faster than the other junior engineers. I work for a company of about 25 but with some very big projects.

All the small stuff started coming to me because I could do the structural sizing but more importantly I could guide a junior draftsman to produce a drawing that is understandable and correct, without a lot of checking from my bosses. They liked this because it was nominal input from them and they got to charge for this.

The other junior engineers had to work with the more experienced draftsman, who didn't really have time for engineers that is not so sure about what they were doing.

Bottom line: 6 months down the line I got a nice little team together. I learned a lot more design than the other engineers, the bosses needed to search for design work for them to do in a project,they sometimes got a bit pigeonholed in one thing. I got a complete project, experience on the complete design, as well as bringing in about three times what they do.

I actually got a section on a huge project we are tendering for, I get to join all the prelim meetings, am involved in the costing phase, prelim designs etc. I have more responsibility than any of the other junior engineers, even though some of them are more than 2 years my senior.

And it all started with a crappy 15 months of drawing, for a very low salary.

RE: Junior Engineer Woes

(OP)
All:

Thank you for your input.  I had my yearly appraisal last Friday and the conversation was good.

I avoided using the words "pigeon hole" and instead expressed my desire to have more "meat and potatoes" engineering.  My boss liked the phrase.  He admitted to me that the type of work I had been seeing wasn't ideal for my professional development; but it was work that had to be done.  Empty promise or not, he said when new opportunities are presented to the company that I would be well positioned for increased responsibility.

A side note, I've drifted away from CAD in the past two months... so I'm quite happy with how everything is turning out.

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