client's approval of fabrication drawings
client's approval of fabrication drawings
(OP)
gentlemen,
prior to the start of the fabrication or manufacturing of separators, tanks, through conduit valves, hot well pumps, for power plants and other mechanical items, we require the fabricator to submit detailed fabrication drawings, for our approval.
in the course of our approval, we stamp the drawings with: "APPROVAL OF THIS DOCUMENT DOES NOT RELIEVE THE CONTRACTOR OF ITS RESPONSIBILITY UNDER THIS CONTRACT."
in case of a fatal flaw, we were advised that this notation does not hold water in an international court of justice, or court of arbitration.
how can we revise this to indicate that we hold the designer/manufacturer/fabricator responsible for any fatal flaws.
note that in all our biddings, where available, we require ASME stamps, API monograms or its equivalent, if available, in JIS, DIN, ISO or any acceptable equivalent international standard.
basis of design is also provided to the bidders as B31.1, B31.3, ASME VIII, as the case maybe, as reference to our requirements.
it goes without saying that tests required by the standards must be performed.
many thanks in advance.
positive or negative comments are most welcome. it balances my outlook on the problem at hand.
prior to the start of the fabrication or manufacturing of separators, tanks, through conduit valves, hot well pumps, for power plants and other mechanical items, we require the fabricator to submit detailed fabrication drawings, for our approval.
in the course of our approval, we stamp the drawings with: "APPROVAL OF THIS DOCUMENT DOES NOT RELIEVE THE CONTRACTOR OF ITS RESPONSIBILITY UNDER THIS CONTRACT."
in case of a fatal flaw, we were advised that this notation does not hold water in an international court of justice, or court of arbitration.
how can we revise this to indicate that we hold the designer/manufacturer/fabricator responsible for any fatal flaws.
note that in all our biddings, where available, we require ASME stamps, API monograms or its equivalent, if available, in JIS, DIN, ISO or any acceptable equivalent international standard.
basis of design is also provided to the bidders as B31.1, B31.3, ASME VIII, as the case maybe, as reference to our requirements.
it goes without saying that tests required by the standards must be performed.
many thanks in advance.
positive or negative comments are most welcome. it balances my outlook on the problem at hand.





RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
Maybe the fact that its stamped, and they have not actually signed a contract?
In any case, IF there is no way to hold them legally liable, your only saving grace is to have someone in house double check the fabrication documents for flaws.
"Scientists dream about doing great things. Engineers do them." -James Michener
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
I always thought checking and approval were different ie:- If you check a design then to me you go through all the calculations, drawings and tolerance stacks, now I can accept that I am responsible for the design.
If I approve a design I take that to mean:- someone is designing/manufacturing a bicycle for my client it will have two wheels, brakes etc, I can approve the design but without checking all the calculations and drawings how can I be responsible for it.
Maybe your company lawyer can advise how to change the stamp, or can a clause be written into a contract which makes your sub contractor solely liable.
desertfox
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
That being said, and on to the question at hand, I would ask who told you that this wouldn't stand up in court? They may be correct, but they should also be able to tell you why it wouldn't, citing precedence.
However, I really believe that you should talk to an attorney in a firm which represents both plaintiffs AND defendants in these exact types of cases. It seems that your entire livelihood hinges on precise wording of one single sentence. I don't think that's the time to try to save on consultant fees.
Furthermore, you should also talk with your insurance company. Specifically, speak with their legal department and ask for help with how to cover yourself and minimize liability in these cases. It seems to me that any insurance company that provides engineering liability coverage should be very interested in helping you save your neck and their own.
Engineering is not the science behind building. It is the science behind not building.
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
I am yet another person in this forum who is not a lawyer. What gives?
I have seen some articles on hiking and other outdoor activities, and liability waivers. Waivers actually hold up in court, at least here in Canada, if they are written clearly, and carefully explained to the other person. If they are written in Latin in four point type and not explained, they don't hold up. In summary, I offer to take you scuba diving after you agree to not hold me responsible for any accidents, even if I cause them.
Your stamp is applied to your drawings, possibly by some clerical level employee who is mindlessly following procedure. The customer's technical clerk accepts the prints and tells his boss that you have approved everything. If your waiver is perceived as legalistic BS, and no one pays attention. Your clerks and your vendor's clerks are not lawyers for some reason.
You could instruct your courier to deliver the prints directly to the relevant manager, and have them read out the waiver before handing anything over. This all could make you look like an idiot. You know your vendors. I don't
If you want your vendor to be responsible for the stuff they do, you need to get your lawyer to write up a contract that clearly assigns rights and responsibilities.
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
As Mike said, sounds like a question for a Lawyer.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
I work in most cases on the supplier side and I hate clients who want to have everything approved, want design calculations, take 6 weeks time till they approve it (delivery date is of course not affected by this) and then stamp or sign it with a sentence that means more or less "Whatever I checked and approved does not matter. If I made a mistake, it would not release you from your responsibility." Especially consultants like to do that.
I think a client (or a consultant) is responsible for what he approves. If I submit a drawing that includes all required dimensions and get it approved, it will not be my fault in case it will not fit.
Just my thoughts - you asked for it.
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
desertfox
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
If I "approve" this (worthless) drawing, I have not approved the design. I have not been presented with sufficient detailed design information to judge if the design will actually work.
If I ask for more information about the design vendors will say "propitiatory", or "it's our standard design".
Then it gets installed and something doesn't work the way it is supposed to work as required by the contract or specification.
Without fail, a vendor's first response is "well you approved the drawing that we submitted."
This is why "approved" stamps have language like this on them.
It's the vendor's responsibility to comply with the specification and contract and provide something that is in compliance. The client's "approval" of a few pitiful drawings or other scraps of information does not relieve the vendor of his responsibility.
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
The fact that vendors do not want to present all their engineering knowledge and detailed drawings is understandable. For the next job you buy from somebody else and I as the previous vendor must be afraid that my knowledge is passed to my competitor. You get my machine. If you want, you can dismantle it and measure everything and make material analysis. But I do not have to help you with that.
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
Approval is only for conformance with the design concept of the Project and compliance with the information given in the Contract Documents. Contractor is responsible for all dimensions, quantities and performance requirements to be confirmed and correlated at the job site; for all information that pertains solely to the fabrication processes or to techniques of construction; for all coordination of the work of all trades; and for assuring consistency with the Contract Documents.
Approval of drawings or items does not relieve the Contractor of the responsibility for complying with all requirements of the Contract Documents.
The Owner's approval of the Fabricator's Shop Detail Drawings is a verification that the drawings appear to be consistent with the Contract documents. "Approval" does not relieve the Fabricator of the responsibility for the accuracy of dimensions on Shop Detail Drawings nor for complete submittals satisfying applicable Contract requirements, nor does it permit deviations from the Contract without the Owner's documented consent.
Reviewed for conformance with general design intent of contract documents. Approval in no way relieves contractor of responsibility for dimensions, quantities, coordination, scheduling, or special job conditions. Contractor's submission for approval represents contractor's acceptance of responsibility, unless written notification of discrepancies is made prior to approval of correction.
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
Keep in mind that in some cases, stamping a shop drawing in a certain way could be construed as a contractual change. You don't want to be in that position.
It is better if such items are covered in your contract. For instance, you could have a clause in the contract that states that fabrication drawings must be submitted for conceptual review consistent with the contract terms, but that such review is not intended to dictate the fabricator's means and methods, nor does such review relieve the fabricator from compliance with any or all terms of the contract.
If you don't cover such items in the contract, then it is up to someone (judge, jury, lawyer, arbitration panel, etc.) to interpret the intent of the contract. That's known as being outside the "four corners of the document". When that happens you leave your fate to others, who might not interpret the provisions of the contract in the manner in which you intended.
Get a lawyer, but get one who has experience in the shop/fabrication drawing approval process.
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
My understanding is that international bodies like the ICJ and the ICCt aren't likely to be interested in your case unless either it's a state on state spat, or you as an individual have been engaged in something very much worse than not checking your drawings properly.
Once you start dealing overseas, your real problem is that you open yourself up to action in all sorts of jurisdictions - each of which has its own set of rules - and the potential plantiff gets to pick the jurisdiction that gives their action the best chance of success.
Drawoh has already pointed out that waivers can be made to stick under Canadian law: In English law, they can't - at least not where death or personal injury is concerned. Some European jurisdictions take a "Strict Liability" approach, which is even more interesting.
The message is a bit the same as everybody else's: You need to talk to a good lawyer, but not just one who understands drawings - you need one who understands the jurisdictions you're buying and selling in (and every time you start in another country, you need to consider another trip to the lawyer).
A.
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
thank you very much.
let me explain further how this came about.
our consultant, obviously not a laywer, did advise that the stamp does not hold water in a court of arbitration, in case of a fatal flow.
having written that, i get the impression here that a technical lawyer, somebody who has a degree in engineering as well, is the man of the hour.
allow me to cite an example:
we bided out a 150mw power plant, an epc contract. we required the winning bidder to submit all documents, from p&id's, fab drawings of pumps, gensets, valves, towers, tanks, fire equipment, piping stress results, foundation design and calculations, the works. i hope this will not muddle the issue but we did have consultants looking into the documents, hand in hand, over our shoulders for the rest of the project duration, until start up, commissioning and turn over. but, but, they did not sign any stamp of approval, we did. we were tasked to review and provide our stamp, herein being discussed, and sign the documents. the contractor cannot proceed with the fabrication or erection thereof without the stamp. now, what if a fatal flow occurs, rendering a total plant shutdown, or worse, loss of lives? can we go after the power plant designers and their subcontractors?
then the new consultants for another 100 mw power project arrived. they did not offer much of an alternative on that stamp after their comment. but i'd rather read posts here first, before i go back and discuss this stamp with the new arrivals, with, as per advises here, our insurers, our inhouse legal team and a thorough overhaul of the contract documents.
all the replies were quite enlightening, indeed. allow me to clarify my request for a negative feedback, this was not a dare (i always request that in my posts), but then again, thanks for that, sir micalbrch. appreciate it very much.
again, it was an enlightening reading.
thank you very much indeed.
i look forward to my next question.
God bless.
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
"We don't believe things because they are true, things are true because we believe them."
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
The bigger isssue was the approval itself, as there was no requirement for us to give approval we simply refused. This way we were not liable for mistakes made by a vendor.
Our responce was something like this. "We will not issue approval of your drawings, processes, and design. You shall meeet the specifications and standards invoked contractually in the purchase order. The resposibility to meet the documents is yours. And by the way, we noticed the drawing you submitted is incorrect, you may want fix that before machining it".
Had we wanted responsibility we would have simply made it ourselves. Its my opinion that approval of anything done by a vendor during the design-build process is a liability for the approver. The only approval that should take place is final acceptance. I have no problem performing inspections along the way to hedge risk, but the big problem with approvals is that you will likley be asked to approve something on which you are not an expert (if you were an expert, why are you using a vendor?) therby increasing the risk of not getting what you wanted and then having no legal recourse later because you approved it.
Just my two cents worth.
A question properly stated is a problem half solved.
Always remember, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it!
http://www.ap-dynamics.ab.ca/
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
Depending on with state you operate from, hire a consultant engineer to review and stamp the prints intended to be manufactured. This essentially ensures that the PE has reviewed and made a decision that the prints are technically sound.
Then get a manufacturer to build the equipment to print. You need to have quality control review and select material. The "MTR" will confirm proper mechanical and chemical properties from the mill, which becomes part of the report. Get Quality Assurance to perform in manufacture inspections so that production is to specifications as detailed by the print. Have a third independent party perform detailed ISO reviews on the systems in use by the manufacturer and get a handle on the qualifications of personnel performing the trade. So now you have the design prints tied into material quality and conformance to the ISO standard by qualified personnel.
Finally have this third party or general contractor review from start to finish, all aspects of the project on behalf of you, the client. He must furnish detailed reports on progress on a regular basis and perform onsite inspections to your level of satisfaction.
Now suppose nothing goes wrong. Then you're good. On the contrast, if the equipment fails you can persue legal action against the manufacturer for craftsmanship or mechantability. Suppose this checks out, the manufacturer was 100% to print. Then you can go after the engineer for stamping the prints incorrectly as either unprofessional conduct or unskilled practice. Acts of God fall under the first, for the practitioner in engieering may have been skilled but never provided you with a level of service equal to a group of peers under the same conditions and situation.
This is how the industry works. Good luck with it.
Kenneth J Hueston, PEng
Principal
Sturni-Hueston Engineering Inc
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
RE: client's approval of fabrication drawings
Kenneth J Hueston, PEng
Principal
Sturni-Hueston Engineering Inc
Edmonton, Alberta Canada