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technical skills or learn to BS
3

technical skills or learn to BS

technical skills or learn to BS

(OP)
in your experience what gets you places (i.e. promotion/money). Learning technical skills or being a BSer and being confident in what your saying even if it is total rubbish. I think I waste my time learning technical skills when the money goes to the BSers of this world.
This is not meant to be a rant sorry.  

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

It depends how you want to advance.

There are places where technical skills are fairly well rewarded - here you can get decent compensation based primarily on technical abilities.

However, it seems that it may be 'easier' in many places to get promotion/money based on, let's say 'soft' rather than technical skills.  Typically this will require taking a management or at least sales/marketing type role.

Of course, if you can combine both then you should be in a win/win right?

Even in places where technical ability is appreciated, having some soft skills will generally help.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

Learn the skill, then learn to BS.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

Peter got it right. You need to learn how to speak with confidence, present in public and defend your ideas. However there has to be some substance behind.

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

The US has become more of a knowledge base than a skill base economy.  The people that have salaries in the top 20 to 10 percent have degrees.   

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

Umm whatis a BSer?  In the Engineering world I have seen BSci or BEngr.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

BS may make you money, but skills make you valuable.

I don't think you can choose.  BS chooses you.  You either have the gift or you do not.  Even if you do, get some skills.

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

For advancement, learn to intelligently BS; however, as The Tick stated, most Engineers either have the gift or don't and most don't. Remember that if you don't "toot" your own horn, you cannot expect others to "toot" it for you.  

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

Ohhh ok BSer is Bull S***er....well in that case the skill of spin on in any situation is a skill to own.  Tech skills can only get you so far, but to look good while not working to hard...priceless!

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

BS skills will help you keep a job and in promotion at many companies. The more dysfunctional the company, the more BS skills will keep you ahead.

However, technical skills will help you get a new job and to change jobs far more easily. The quickest way to better pay is to leverage knowledge to a new job.

Now, put the previous two things together, and you arrive at what I call the "lint-filter theory of companies". Some companies function to trap and retain the lowest capability employees - the BS'ers. People who BS do the best as this kind of dysfunctional company and capable people soon grow dissatisfied and leave for elsewhere. The people with skills are the ones most likely to quickly find better employment. The people without skills are the ones most likely to develop BS as a skill to keep their job. Eventually, the dysfunctional company plugs up with "lint" and gets trashed.

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

There is no better feeling than to be called out on your "BS", only to rip them with your technical skill.

...sinister laugh that doesn't print well!!.....

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

It's been my experience that being a good BSer and having an outgoing friendly personality is far more important then technical skills.  Think about it this way.  Which one brings in more money to your company?

If your engineering designs are flawless and you are much more efficient then everyone else, you might be 20% more profitable then the average employee in the company.  If your company bills you out hourly then unfortunately you make your company less money then the average employee but possibly more return clients and thus more work.

On the other hand if you are a good BSer, you are bringing in work for your company.  This work keeps who groups of people busy and making money.  Being a good BSer will also help you to collect money from the client and/or explaining why you went over budget.  

That's why CEO's of large companies make tons of cash.  It's not that they have more technical knowledge then other people but because they bring in investors and clients.  Unless your involved in inventing new technology or some other creative work, your just not adding that much value to your company being a techie.
 

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

At the root of every myth is a grain of truth.  

While being a great BSer is a plus, you can't really BS on nothing for very long.  The best BSer I've run across was a top-rated engineer before he went into marketing and knows quite a bit about the stuff he's peddling.  And it's precisely because he knows his stuff that his customers buy into the stuff he peddles, and he can withstand a high level of technical scrutiny.

Do your technical, master it, and the selling comes naturally.  If you don't know your stuff, you'll hem and haw, or have to defer to your "people," which diffuses any progress that you might have made with your customer.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

Choose "skill" over "BS" any day of the week.

If it was otherwise, I would lose sleep every night, depressed over the fact that I was an MBA instead of a P.Eng..

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

"in your experience what gets you places (i.e. promotion/money)"

Learn to BS if you want to get a promotion and raise. Your first step is to stop calling it BS and use terms like:
networking, building relationships, level setting expectations, mission statement, synergy, etc..

Good luck expanding your horizons:)

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

I worked with an engineer than BS'd his way with the company for a few years that he had a BS. When the company finally found out, he was dragged out kicking and crying.

Being a BSer can only get you so far. Having a college degree will take you further. It's 'how' you use your education that will make an impression.

Chris
SolidWorks 09 SP4.1
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

In my limited experience a good BSer can put the information out there for other non-techies to understand. Its what makes a good BSer..

It doesn't matter how smart you are in your field if you cant explain your part to a group or in a meeting people are going to shut down just waiting for that great speaker to start up.

 

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

"In my limited experience a good BSer can put the information out there for other non-techies to understand. Its what makes a good BSer.."

It also makes for a good engineer.  Whatever technical skills you might have, no one will know if you cannot explain what you are doing, and why, to any audience of any experience.  Your ability to explain complicated subjects to, say, a high school audience is a sign of the mastery of your subject matter.

If you think about the best technical mentors, or even your college professors, you would not consider them to be BSers (for the most part).  But, you respect their ability to explain complicated to concepts to neophyte audiences (YOU).

I will admit here that people consider me to be a good BSer, but, at the same time, they recognize that I never present material that I do not have complete mastery of, and I never pretend to know more than I do.  THAT is what engenders the trust that my audiences have in the material I present, and me, as an engineer.

While there are those that are easily swayed by big, or arcane, words, the majority of people have sufficiently operable BS filters to recognize technical depth and mastery in a speaker, or the lack thereof.
 

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

Are we confusing what the term BSer means?  You can have good communication skills, but not be a BSer.  To me a BSer has at least three qualities, one is that they can take a subject that they have no idea and still speak as if he is an expert (sales people with no engineering degree), a person who can think on their feet and at the last second can say anything crazy (but still sounds technically correct) to save the moment (managers), and a person who can take any bad subject / issues and turn it around to make it sound fantastic (CEOs).

 

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

(OP)
yeah I'm not talking communication skills or speaking about your subject matter, I'm taking about someone with low technical skills but somehow by virtue of their mouth can seemingly get promotions and high wages despite not being able to do any technical stuff.  

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

Quote (Kenat):

"Mwaa Huh Huh Ha"

For some reason that reminded me of Mumm-Ra, on you go Kenat, show your age...

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

(OP)
is that mum-ra the ever living?

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

If you're talking about a BS'er who really dosen't know what he or she is talking about, that may get you by once or twice, but eventually someone will pick up that you are (insert you favorite euphemism for) an idiot.  

If you're talking about a BS'er who has some technical knowledge and has the gift of gab.  Can think on his or her feet and point out the positives that come with any negative.  That is someone who is a good salesmetn then you have a winning combination.

If you comepare the good BS's above to a technical master who's communication skills are so limited that he can create a near optimal design but can't defend it effectivly he is a failure as an engineer.  His good designs will be sidelined by less optimal ones that are better presented and defended.

There is the rare example of the technical master who can communicate masterfully.  These are the unsung heros of the engineering profession.  Poeple like Wil Taylor who know and share with justification so you know and you know why.  Your my hero Wil.

-Kirby

 

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

If that's your definition of BSer, then you really don't have a choice.  It's not something that you learn, it's something that you are pretty much born with, as with charisma.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

In my line of work I have to often make presentations and demonstrate how our software products will benefit a company.  Our customer base is very diversified and so you are not always an 'expert' on their industry or their products, however I've learned a few things which always seems to help.  To start with, now with the Internet it's a bit easier to do some quick 'research' on most companies and their industry segment (when I started doing this 30 years ago it was a lot tougher to get quick information about anything).  Also, when I would meet the customer and after the 'small talk', I would ask them a few questions about their products, their processes, their industry perhaps asking who their competitors were, after about 5 minutes I would start into my presentation, but by then I knew enough to stay that 5 minutes ahead of them.  Granted, it helps that I've got a broad engineering background (BSME) and 40+ years experience and am well read and traveled, but if you stay just ahead of the client, he thinks you know everything.  

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

You don't consider BSing a technical skill? Based on some of the jargon and technical terms I've heard thrown out there, I would have sworn that the typical BSing salesman knew more about how the product works than the person that designed it. ;)

-- MechEng2005

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

But I'm not a salesman, I work in R&D (staff to the VP of Software Development), it's just that I'm often asked to become involved in sales efforts, like why I'm in Detroit for most all of next week.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

I knew the head sales manager for a precision gage company that worked there for over 20 years.  He once he had a client called him up and say that there was a typo on the gage he sold him which listed an accuracy of "0.001000".  The sales manager argued with him saying that "the gages are just really good and that extra zeros don't matter".  Apparently he was a BSer that knew nothing about the accuracy of the PRECISION GAGES he was selling.  When I tried to explain significant digits to him he looked at me with a blank look.  By the way, he makes about 5 times more then I do.

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

I refuse to BS. If I don't know the answer, I say "I don't know and I will get back to you". BSer's may appear to advance further than others but they will get found out for the frauds they are and it is very embarrassing when an experience engineer brings them crashing back to Earth.

Talking with confidence is a very important characteristic that must be developed. People skills will get you further in your field than any other quality. People skills combined with a thorough base of technical knowledge would be awesome.  

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

Abraham Lincoln had this subject well covered.

B.E.

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

?

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

A gift for Gab will take you places, I had a manager that was a PE but his strength was his ability to speak on things he wasn't sure about in such a convincing manner that you would be sold.  He truly has a gift, he is by no means a bad engineer, but there were more than a few occassion where he would throw out numbers, code references, proposed design schemes that were not technically correct but if you didn't know to research what he said you would think he knew what he was taking about.  He worked well with the clients, he was able to get business, smooth over any conflicts, and maintain trust with the clients. His downfall is that he took it too far, he didn't want to work, and with a very technically sound engineer working under him he was exposed.  

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

As an engr in design, project, or other organized discipline, go for Toastmaster training. We have had engrs, salesmen, real estate, etc, who have put their presentation skills to good use. Your progress will be surprisingly rapid. There is the basic course of ten speeches, then the advanced with elective speeches, and then the sky is the limit.

I was instrumental in bringing eulogies to the advanced course. That is one of the most challenging tasks. when I gave a number of eulogies for family members, they asked, 'how did you do it?' The answer was always Toastmasters.

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

Toastmasters?  I need to look into that.  I know a lot of people who BS and others around them are very annoyed.  If you have your PE and non-technical people know you are faking it constantly, that is pretty bad.  I don't get a good vibe if this has helped the person or not though.

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com
http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

twoballcane,
RE berkshire: What was attributed to Lincoln, often misquoted (probably herein), was, "You can fool some of the people all the time, all the people some of the time but never all the people all the time."  

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

I think technical skills are important, but I think becoming a very good BS'er is actually not as easy as it sounds. Just like becoming a masterful thief is not easy.

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

Why are people promoting Bull Sh!t???
If you know what you are talking about, then you don't have to blab like an imbecile to convince anyone!!!
Jeeze, end of story.  

peace
Fe

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

@FeX32,
People like me suck at BS'ing. It is an art. I am not promoting it but saying that it takes skill and balls of steel knowing that any moment you could get called out.

I am a man of pride and I would not like to be called out in public, but to be a good BS'er you have to walk a fine line.

Engineers are in general terrible BS'ers. Cos all we speak are facts and numbers. We don't know to sugar coat things or make rough edges smooth. All we know and care for are numbers.

I have a colleague at work who is super good at listening to what you are saying and repeating it verbatim somewhere else and people think that "oh wow". What they don't really know is how much that person does not know. But it does not matter. All that matters in the short term is how much you make people someone else believe how smart you are.

Again, you don't work too long with clients to give them the opportunity to figure you out. Co-workers is another story.

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

I must mention that I was borderline trying to say that having good people skills combined with technical skills is the asset to have. BS'ing can only take you so far.

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

ahh ok. I understand you guys now. I guess I misunderstood.

I'm not a good BS'er either. But, I am good at arguing a point.
I hate those bull turd kind of people and I will call them out at any chance I get. I don't recommend this to anyone at a meeting or the such....it can end up in engineering swearing matches. upsidedown

peace
Fe

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

FeX32 said:

Quote:

If you know what you are talking about, then you don't have to blab like an imbecile to convince anyone!!!

I disagree.  Even if you know the truth you may not be able to convince anyone.  Just ask Cassandra.  If a BSer is more easily believed then a technical expert then i say the prblem lies with the expert.  He needs to learn how to argue his point better.  I wouldn't call this BS (see my discussion above about terminology), but the skill set is the same.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

"arguing a point" ... worth its weight in gold. Agreed.  

peace
Fe

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

Instead of spending all that effort, try out bisexuality so you can please all your bosses.

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

lol. Then the office parties will turn into 'orgies'
 

peace
Fe

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

smile
Well. I can't speak for anyone else.  
But, with that "try out bisexuality" attitude, I was proposing that the workplace parties could end up like bi key swapping parties.
afro2

By no means do I promote this. If you need me I will be at the downtown strip club.

peace
Fe

RE: technical skills or learn to BS

Just got back from the club with a belly full of pork. :)

Oh. yea well I guess I never experienced that. The ones I attended were as lame as can get.
I should change venues maybe.   

peace
Fe

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