Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
(OP)
Inspecting a warehouse system I found where the installing contractor was using CPVC downstream the inspector's test valve, downstream the 2" main drain angle valve and on the 3/4" supply from the alarm check valve to water motor gong.
Seemed strange to me but I can't find anything wrong with it. Not the way I do things but is there something I am missing?
Seemed strange to me but I can't find anything wrong with it. Not the way I do things but is there something I am missing?





RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
The only question I have is how long will the short piece of CPVC and 45 deg elbow on the main drain last exposed to the bright Georgia sunshine? I like giving customers better quality but from a code or standard point of view?
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
Whatever!
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
re: exposed
In NFPA 13-2007 and later system the CPVC piping can be run exposed, where installed "in accordance with .. listing limitations, including installation instructions." [NFPA 13-2007, section 6.3.6.1]
The piping can be run exposed in light hazard areas with smooth ceilings and QR sprinklers. However, the typical CPVC listing limitations for use in a system riser states:
"CPVC products may be used as system risers in accordance with NFPA 13 light hazard, NFPA 13D, and 13R when installed protected (concealed). The minimum protection shall consist of either one layer of 3/8 inch (9.5 mm) thick gypsum wallboard or 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) thick plywood."
Of course downstream of the test/drain valves wouldn't technically be part of the "system riser" to require concealment. The bell line would require concealment, since it is part of the "waterflow alarm device", one of the two devices required to have a "system riser".
So I would make them change out the bell line.
The piping must also be listed and stamped/marked, so you could also check to make sure the piping is listed. Its probably unrealistic to require listed piping in an open non-pressurized line.
If you must meet FM and are in a seismic design category C or higher building, then you can't use CPVC piping at all.. Again probably just the bell line would be the issue.
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
NFPA 13 (2007) Section 6.3.6.1 states the following: "Other types of pipe or tube investigated for suitability in automatic sprinkler installations and listed for this service, including but not limited to CPVC and steel, and differing from that provided in Table 6.3.1.1 or Table 6.3.6.1 shall be permitted where installed in accordance with their listing limitations, including installation instructions." ABSOLUTELY nothing about being approved in an "exposed" installation.
Some important excerpts from the Appendix:
-Some listings do provide for the use of exposed piping in conjunction with residential or quick-response sprinklers, but only under specific, limited installation criteria.
-With respect to thermoplastic pipe and fittings, exposure of such piping to elevated temperatures in excess of that for which it has been listed can result in distortion or failure. Accordingly, care must be exercised when locating such systems to ensure that the ambient temperature, including seasonal variations, does not exceed the rated value. The upper service temperature limit of currently listed CPVC sprinkler pipe is 150°F (65.5°C) at 175 psi (12.1 bar). The upper service temperature limit of currently listed polybutylene sprinkler pipe is 120°F (49°C) at 175 psi (12.1 bar).
-Consideration must also be given to the possibility of exposure of the piping to elevated temperatures during a fire. The survival of thermoplastic piping under fire conditions is primarily due to the cooling effect of the discharge from the sprinklers it serves. As this discharge might not occur simultaneously with the rise in ambient temperature and, under some circumstances, can be delayed for periods beyond the tolerance of the piping, protection in the form of a fire-resistant membrane is generally required. Where protection is required, it is described in the listing information for each individual product, and the requirements given must be followed. It is equally important that such protection must be maintained. Removal of, for example, one or more panels in a lay-in ceiling can expose piping in the concealed space to the possibility of failure in the event of a fire. Similarly, the relocation of openings through protective ceilings that expose the pipe to heat, inconsistent with the listing, would place the system in jeopardy. The potential for loss of the protective membrane under earthquake conditions should also be considered.
-While the listings of thermoplastic piping do not prohibit its installation in combustible concealed spaces where the provision of sprinkler protection is not required, and while the statistical record of fire originating in such spaces is low, it should be recognized that the occurrence of a fire in such a space could result in failure of the piping system.
Anyone who reads this (and all of the other pertinent material regarding CPVC piping) and concludes it is OK to install it in an exposed arrangement for a NFPA 13 location is blinded by bias or worse.
Response to the original question: My opinion is that it is pitiful and considered poor engineering design to use CPVC plastic piping for the drain lines when the remainder of the system is steel.........If I were the customer or a consultant for the customer, I would suggest they find a more professional and reputable sprinkler contractor for any future projects AND I would not recommend a contractor who cuts corners such as this........what other corners will a contractor like this cut in an attempt to maximize profit or retain a job as the "lowest bidder". We need to act like professionals and install systems that will function properly over the long haul (50+ years rather than being so focused on a quick profit and hope the system will last for 5-10 years).
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
I would not consider your example a violation of NFPA requirements, but I would consider this practice to be poor quality and not entirely professional.
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
I would not agree with your "over-the-top" reaction for CPVC plastic components located above or behind fire rated barriers and installed in accordance with all of the NFPA 13 requirements as well as ALL of the pipe manufacturers installation guidelines; HOWEVER, I would tend to respond "YES" to your question for sprinkler contractors which use CPVC plastic piping for certain sections of the system in an obvious attempt to maximize profit (i.e. when all of the remaining system piping is steel).
I have already seen WAY too many corners cut in the past 5-7 years in the name of MORE PROFIT for the sprinkler contractor. I find exposed CPVC plastic sprinkler piping in stairwells, mechanical rooms, laundry rooms and even in attic areas (when the sprinkler system is intended to protect the wood frame attic). Most of these problems are at Hotels, Day Care Facilities, Nursing Homes and Schools. Some are supposedly designed to NFPA 13R; but in most instances, these systems were supposedly installed in accordance with NFPA 13......yeah right!
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
The listings for CPVC have expanded greatly over the years. Please don't take this the wrong way, but is some of your 'dislike' for CPVC just because you may not be familiar with all of the ways it is now listed for installation.
There are places where CPVC is superior to steel. For example, if you have a site where MIC is a problem, it may be beneficial to install CPVC as MIC does not seem to attack CPVC. I have been involved in a project where it was a retrofit over a working office. The field guys had to work the night shift as the employees were not being moved out. The building was a high rise of non combustible construction. Using CPVC, the installation was cleaner and done in less time than it would have been in steel.
I have seen situations where CPVC is installed outside of its listing and this is never a good thing. But, I don't think the use of CPVC in the industry, where it is permitted, is a bad thing.
Lastly, using current technology to maximize profits is not a bad thing. If you are cutting corners to maximize profit, that is a different animal. But, if company A bids an office building with standard coverage heads, and company B bids with Ex Cov sprinklers, you can be pretty sure that company B will get the job.
Have a great weekend everyone. Don't forget to call mom!
Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
it can be installed exposed in a stairwell with comditions, and other places exposed with condtions
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
In my opinion is poor judgement and unprofessional behavior.
I dont believe that such contractor presented a full stamped set of drawings indicating locations on which they will use CPVC instead of steel.
Is very questionable.
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
What Travis described with existing buildings is exactly why I love CPVC for retrofits, especially for say dining room areas of restaurants open during normal business hours.
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
I have my own biases about how things should be, just as everyone else. But just because we have a bias toward one way, it does not necessarily make other methods of achieving the same thing wrong. Why not use Sch 80 steel pipe for everything. After all, wouldn't sch 80 be better than Sch 10 for the life of the pipe? Where does it end?
I am just going to have to agree to disagree with some on this matter. If a product is used within the listing for the product and is allowed by the prescriptive standards, then I do not see an issue with it.
Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
I must admit that I have developed a slightly negative opinion and I look a little closer during my inspections when I see CPVC piping has been installed to protect a building........I have found way too many problems which were not installed in accordance with all of the applicable requirements. CPCV piping is acceptable as long as it is installed in accordance with all of the applicable requirements.
I have a problem with sprinkler contractors who install painted CPVC sprinkler piping located on the protected side of the dry wall throughout a nursing home (standard response sidewall heads on "exposed" painted CPVC pipe). I also find CPVC in attic areas located above the insulation on a regular basis (piping should be protected against freeze in unheated attics). Exposed CPVC piping is not acceptable using standard sprinklers for NFPA 13 sprinkler systems designed to protect attic spaces when the CPVC piping is located in the attic, but this combination is not uncommon at day care facilities, churches and nursing homes (attic sprinklers are a different story as the well versed Travis Mack pointed out).
The sole reason I even posted a response was to prevent readers of this internet blog from thinking CPVC is widely approved in "exposed" applications.........the circumstances where this is true are VERY limited. I was trying to prompt a few readers to conduct a little in depth research regarding CPVC. My guess would be that nearly all of us would agree on this topic if we were sitting in a room discussing the topic.
I want to appologize if my comments suggested I think the use of CPCV piping suggests a contractor is less than professional.......not true if the system is installed properly.
We all know there are sprinkler contractors with employees who cut corners and come in with the low low bids. I wonder sometimes if the employees know the requirements and they ignore them on purpose or if they are designing/installing systems even though they are not aware of the pertinent requirements. One or the other must be true because there are WAY too many CPVC sprinkler systems out there which were not installed in accordance with the applicable NFPA and CPVC pipe manufacturer's installation requirements.
Over and out.
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
I can honestly say I agree 100% with the above statement! Have a great weekend!
Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
From a complete installation view.
I have always used threaded pipe and fittings for my drains, relief lines et cetera. And always will.
A few years back I was on a project where the foreman wanted to use grooved couplings instead of unions on the floor control drain line to the gang drain connections. I thought it didn't look as professional, nor did it give it the rigidness a union does. While easier to install and repair it just did not look right.
Shortly after on another project the foreman wanted to use CPVC on the packing drip lines and relief line on the fire pump, saying it was easier to unclog the lines if and when that were required. (No glue, just dry fit.)
Yes it was easier to install, but it just did not look right. I guess maybe I am olde school or just too particular (and/or anal retentive).
All the trim and drains on MY projects have been done in steel piping with cast fittings (even the gang drains on CPVC systems), and I have always been quite pleased and proud of the results.
Some consideration should be given to what conditions and stresses these pipes will be under. Be it corrosiveness or incompetent people stepping on them.
Shouldn't the ultimate goal be to give the customer an exceptional quality fire protection system which will operate properly in any situation?
If it cost's my company a few dollars to make me confident that I have done the best job that I could, I am quite satisfied. And may I add, I am proud of all of the job I have installed.
As far as water motor gong piping, I would NEVER, EVER, use CPVC. Even if it were listed and approved by the AHJ, State and Federal Fire Marshal.
But I digress.
As far as code requirements are concerned, cdafd and SD2 have been right on in posts I have seen here and have my utmost respect.
Because ultimately, we are here to save lives and property.
If we all agreed, we would be Communists. - Me
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
I'm not saying it's not unprofessional to install CPVC drains on a steel system. However, I believe it is allowed by code.
The piping to the motor gong is another matter.
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
We should also check what the manufacturer says when installing a water motor gong. If I recall correctly you can not use cpvc when installing water motor gong trim piping.
As far as drains and bottom of inspectors test valve. I have no problem but GOD DAMM I will never hire you again.
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
Not to beat a dead horse, but contractors are using the latest technology and methods to keep going in this tight market. If CPVC and flex heads can be used in a building, per the adopted standards, for 1/2 the costs of Sch 40 and hard piped drops, why should a contractor be penalized for knowing what technology is there an using it?
I still remember when EC-25 sprinklers came out. I was working in a contractor's office at the time. We bid a storage project using the EC-25 sprinklers and were able to save several branch lines across a large building. We were about 35% low on the job. The GC was hesitant to award us the job because of the wide spread in the bids. But, with a bit of education of the GC, we were awarded the project - and made a good profit at the end. Should we have not gotten the job because we were the only ones that used these sprinklers (new technology at the time) in the design/build process? It provided the same level of protection as a standard 11.2 sprinkler, but allowed nearly 2x the area of coverage per sprinkler.
If you don't embrace current advances in fire protection materials, you may be left behind in the market. And, I just have a design firm, not an installation company, so I don't really have a dog in the fight. I just think that sticking to old methods as new come about could lead to stagnancy in the profession.
Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
I did not state and I do not believe using CPVC is unprofessional. I was not referring to contractors who use CPVC in accordance with approved standards and follow ALL of the CPVC manufacturer's installation guidelines. I actually agree with everything you stated regarding the use of new products and technology. {I am a FPE and I am only 43 years old.......so I am not totally old-school!!}
The clarification I would like to make (in my defense) is that I was providing a response to the example which started this long blog: "installing contractor was using CPVC downstream of the inspector's test valve, downstream of the 2" main drain angle valve and on the 3/4" supply from the alarm check valve to water motor gong."
My response was the following: "I would not consider your example a violation of NFPA requirements, but I would consider this practice to be poor quality and not entirely professional."
This has created some passion and a little tension on the blog and I am now somewhat intrigued...........Assuming we are dealing with an NFPA 13 system which has schedule 40 steel pipe for all of the other system piping; I wonder how many blog participants would consider the specific example I have listed above to be poor quality & not entirely professional. Please provide a quick response if you have an opinion.
My response would be as follows: Not entirely professional. If I am conducting an initial inspection and I find this specific example, I would stay very focused throughout the inspection process to make sure I do not miss potential problems with the system (i.e. actual NFPA violations). I suppose I am jaded because I have found WAY to many problems over the past 20+ years and there is no doubt in my mind that some sprinkler contractors cut corners on a regular basis in the name of profit.
God bless everyone.....it is almost time for Church here in the great state of Georgia!
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
Actually, it was the following quote that I was responding to above:
And, I am just as 'jaded' on many installations. I can't tell you how many times we have seen poor, and blatantly wrong, installations where corners were cut in what appears to be in sole profit motive - not that profit is a bad thing.
1 - Riser sway bracing to a stud wall because the block wall was further away is one I see a lot of! It drives me crazy.
2 - Installing CPVC piping outside of its listing is another I see to frequently.
3 - Improperly installed pump room piping happens on probably 50+% of the pump installations I have seen.
God bless everyone as well - just got back from church in the great state of Arizona!
Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
Maybe I'm just stuck in old school.
I personally don't care for CPVC, almost completely only on the grounds, that it is soooooo boring to install. And, harder to draw since it's not as involved with detail and I'm too meticulous. On a side note [I had a helper work with CPVC while I was on vacation,(seven years ago) and I asked what he thought about it upon my return,he said "CPVC is for the women"].
My other issue is that sometimes it does not "look" professional in certain applications. Above the ceiling is one thing but I feel, exposed is another.
God Bless you in Arizona, I'm behind you.
If we all agreed, we would be Communists.- Me.
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
For those that don't like CPVC, what are your thoughts on flexheads and other technology like that? I remember starting out and we basically had upright / pendent / sidewall in ½" and 17/32" orifices. Now, you go from 3/8" orifice to 31/32" orifice or whatever the K25.2 sprinklers are now. The range of sprinklers is mind boggling when compared to the 80's and earlier. I view the use of CPVC as similar to using these newer sprinklers. They are fine when used within the listings and manufacturer's guidelines, but can be disastrous when used outside of that criteria.
With the new IRC requirements for sprinklers in single family homes, I think the industry needs to fully embrace CPVC or the residential single family work will land with the plumbing contractors.
PS - And for the comment about being with us in AZ - Thank you!!!!!!
Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
FFP1
I will be moving to the Atlanta, Ga area. I hope i like it.
Any advise?
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
I graduated from GT and I lived in the Atlanta area for several years.........plenty to do and most Atlanta residents are nice/friendly; however, almost every person you meet will be crazy busy (borderline hectic lifestyle) because traffic and travel distances will affect every aspect of your life.
The same story for most large metropolitan areas I suppose.........Atlanta is a good place to live. I wish you well and I hope you truly enjoy living in Atlanta, GA!
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
As far as finding job close to home it will not matter. I am a Fire Protection Specialist and most likely I will have to be on the road (sucks) untill I get the Department Manager position.
What fire protection company you do not recommend to with.(confidential)
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
I'd give you a few names never to deal with but there is no way to do it confidentially here, and who knows if I would have to reapply with them one day.
As far as flex heads go, I personally have never had the opportunity to install them, but I understand you can relocate about eighty a day (of course with my two helpers and myself, we get that in a day with goose necks and hard piped drops). However, it does make it possible for the GC to move the head themselves and there by "stealing" money from the sprinkler contractor.
I personally also don't care for the new Victaulc couplings which don't need to be completely broke apart to install.(Two years in the office and then back in the field due to slow economy) it was hard for me to get used too.
Good Luck in your relocation, you will love Georgia, except when it so humid you can't breathe, but that's only eight months out of the year.
If we all agreed, we would be Communists.- Me.
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
I started my career in 1976 when 99% of what we did was pipe schedule using sch. 40 pipe and threaded fittings. I think we used the 1974 edition of NFPA #13. Yep, lot's of 8" threaded stuff.
I remember estimating wet warehouse systems on pipe for $1.25 per square foot with less than $1.00 per sq. ft. being unheard of.
To see where technology has brought us what cost $1.25 in 1976 would cost $4.66 in 2009. If you were to buy exactly the same products in 2009 and 1976, they would cost you $1.25 and $0.32 respectively.
Here it is, 2010 and we're selling ESFR systems for less than $1.00 per square foot which, adjusted for inflation, is less than 1/4 of the 1976 price.
Could you imagine selling a plain Jane warehouse system (interior only, no fire pump or underground) for $4.66 per square foot today? The thought makes me giddy.
The point is I know there are some old school people but if you don't adapt you will die.
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
I know several contractors that would retire after 1-2 jobs if they could get an ESFR warehouse at $4.66 / sq ft.
Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
I will be moving to the Atlanta, Ga area. I hope i like it.
Any advise?
I'm 250 miles south of Atlanta almost as far south as you can go and still be in Georgia. Having moved from the North Coast area five years ago I'd have to say it was the best move I ever made.
Art
deenfire.com
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
FPP1 thanks for your support.
As far as the comments of CPVC being able to be use with steel. I cant care less. As far as my employees and any individual under my supervision I will not tolerate that. Unfortunately we can not make decisions for other business owners. I feel that if you have control of your situation it should not happened. Is truly not a code violation but in the other hand is not great practice.
Thanks
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
I don't have anything against CPVC personally, but to install it correctly, complying with all the manufacturer requirements seems to be more trouble than it is worth. You have to make sure every other component of your system (cutting oil, fire caulk, pipe dope, etc) is compatible with the CPVC. In addition, I have read studies now that show the MIC coating applied to some pipes reacts unfavorably with the CPVC and can lead to failure. We have tried the Flexheads, as well as Aquaflex (now Victaulic) but have found that the installation requirements for minimum bend radius are absurd. They are only feasible in an ideal situation where one might have 18" of clear space above the ceiling to route branchlines. Now the company I work for is making a move to all ductile iron threaded fittings in lieu of the traditional cast iron. They are roughly half the cost. I am not necessarily one of the "old" guys, but I am hesitant to accept these fittings. They look "cheap". I do feel however that it is our responsibility as designers, contractors, etc. to seek innovative cost saving methods to further the industry. Has anyone had any experience using ductile iron fittings on a large scale? I would love to hear of problems, or success stories for that matter.
Regards,
RyanO
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
However we like CPVC piping as it saves considerable time and money for light hazard buildings (except when someone forgets to glue a joint). Most of our pipe is concealed anyways in these applications.
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
I have an ESFR system right now that if I sold for $4.66/ft I would be able to retire but wouldn't because this is all so much fun!
We got a second ESFR system that we sold for $0.73/ft and while we won't make a killing we will make a profit as long as everyone does their job. There's another I bid at $0.64/ft but I am waiting to see if we have that one. $0.64 factoring inflation is $0.49 in 2000. Who could have guessed in 2000 we would see ESFR systems for less than half a buck 10 years into the future? Ten years ago I would have said "no way" but here we are.
A company has to evolve with the technology and embrace it or die.
RE: Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?
Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com