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Smart Grid
19

Smart Grid

Smart Grid

(OP)
I started hearing about the "smart grid" and was confused as to why it was supposedly needed.  

http://smartenergynewsroom.com/

I must admit that I had no idea that you guys don't know when my power goes off.  But actually I find that hard to believe.  Surely you must see something; a drop in load, voltage levels increase?  Even I can see lower gas flows and higher outlet pressures, even though I may not know what every customer is using, I will have realtime pressure, temperature and flows at gas sources and at the high demand clients.  If its true you're operating blind, I can see where a smart grid offers advantages to the grid operators to get hold of some information from critical points in the system, but is it really true you must have access to my home distribution panel?  

I suppose every bit counts and raising my thermostat by 1 degree x 1E6 users might enable a peak generator to be switched off, but I have some suspicion that there is more to this than 1 degree.  Who knows, it might save me a doller or two, as long as they turn the thermostat on the airconditioner up one degree and the heater down one... and they don't return it to position too early.  However I still have some difficulty believing its not the fox guarding the chicken house, or worse, more like the 3 piggies and the wolf... "Come out, come out, or I'll blow your house down!" kinda' thing.  I think a "smart-enough" grid can be implementing critical grid point monitoring alone and there isn't really any need at all to monitor my personal energy usage.  

An article about smart grid installation in Italy said that 30 million new meters would generate 500 million in revenue, apparently revenue somehow unbilled now, so it was a great incentive.  That's 16 Euros/meter and I was billed 75 euros for mine, that's 2.25 billion. Out of 2.75 billion I guess they probably made 1.5 billion on it.  So, isn't this just a clever way to get the customer to pay for the network SCADA upgrade by installing things that can be directly billed to the end user and make a few billion in the process, rather than put a few monitors at critical points?

Isn't the personal energy usage manager just a clever add-on to get an excuse to put in a meter that knows when I'm using electricity in my hydroponic basement garden, or can determine if I or the neighbors are bypassing a meter and stealing electricity outright?  

It seems if it were really as hot a topic as they say, there would be some chatter about implementing it in this forum already too.  So, why so quiet about the smart grid?  What's the engineering viewpoint on the smart grid? Most of the things they say are advantages for me can be done with a $10 timer on my hot water heater.

**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Smart Grid

3
I did not read everything, but "smart grid" concept keeps being brought up by those who want to sell unnecessary electric meters and signaling systems to those who really do not need it. (residential customers, if they can)

The basic and fundamental flaw is that the residential peak time never coincides with the peak of a grid. When people are getting up in the morning or reaching home in the evening and cooking etc, are off-peak hours. So there is no need to automatically turn of a domestic appliance to help utility meet their demand.

As far as cutting back the usage (energy savings) goes, you do not need smart gizmos that are being pushed.

No wonder there is so quiet about smart grid in real engineering circles.

 

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Smart Grid

(OP)
And their point about needing a smart grid for switching solar panels to grid when there's a peak doesn't seem to make sense either.  Why not just charge batteries, feed to grid during peak hours, or shut off at night.  Isn't it so that, due to solar angles and air conditioning loads its pretty much a perfect match anyway?  

Speaking about charging batteries, that doesn't even make sense either.  Batteries are a pretty expensive way to store electricity.  As a domestic consumer, I'd opt for a net-payback w/o batteries as a much more economical system for me, if I had that option.  BTW, utilities in Spain have conspired to make net-payback impossible here, so I don't.  Anyway, wouldn't batteries for a large utility scale solar installation be prohibitingly expensive to implement that strategy?  Wouldn't it be better to VSD some peak gas turbine somewhere, rather than mess around with battery storage? ... even if you're a utility?

There seems to be a lot more advantages for the power company than for me.  My biggest load is hot water and I've got that one covered and paid back already.  Saved that $10 timer cost during the first month.   (The salesman in the hardware store wanted to sell me a $150 timer... Ya really.)   The more I think about this smart grid, the less I like it.  But maybe we'll all get cheaper electricity out of it.  Ya... like that's gonna' happen...not.

**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Smart Grid

(OP)
AND

How manageable is a SCADA system with 3 million inputs going to be for Houston, Texas area alone?  There is something wrong with this smart grid implementation logic they're dishing up.  I'm afraid that this is gonna' be the biggest Trojan horse ever rolled up to the castle gate ... EVER.  Its a perfect excuse to take over AOL, MSN, Google ... EVERYBODY.  Not that that alone might not be good, but at least I can still say "No" to MSN and internet-TV, but I can't manage to say no to utility power... not yet anyway.  When power comes bundled with internet-TV and internet-airconditioning and internet-hot water.  WOW! That's it!  That's gotta' be what they're really after.  Trojan Power!   

**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Smart Grid

Probally a better solution is time of use rates. But the studies typically show the time of use rates don't change most consumer behavior. The industrials will be the group that will change there behaviors the most.

In fact the time of use rate has the biggest effect that I've seen on water pumping applications like irrigation.

RE: Smart Grid

2
Believe it or not, 'Smart Grid' is not actually a conspiracy, although there are plenty of companies looking to make a buck off of it.

Benefits of Smart Meters:
- ability to read remotely (cheaper)
- ability to easily disconnect people who don't pay their bills
- prevents certain types of power theft
- makes time of use rates possible/flexible
- allows users to see details of their power usage (via web interfaces, etc)

Smart Meters are not connected to the SCADA system, they are generally fed into a separate MDM (Meter Data Management) system which refreshes much more slowly than SCADA.

Typically, most distribution systems DO peak at about 5pm during peak residential usage, so there's a strong incentive to reduce residential usage at that time through time of use rates and through demand management (those systems where they will control your water heater / air conditioner).

I'm not sure about the comment about switching solar. Mostly solar is left on all the time. It's generally a good source of DG because it follows the system peak fairly well. The only connection between Smart Grid and solar, is that the additional monitoring/sensors in Smart Grid make it easier to manage a lot of DG on a distribution system.

RE: Smart Grid

There is a reason there is no demand charge in residential billing structure in the USA. Residential peak is inconsequential.

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Smart Grid

(OP)
OK, maybe not a conspiracy, but I doubt much truth is being sold.  And yes, what you say is my point exactly.  All major (immediately visible) benefits on your list go to the utility with very little for the consumer, load shifting, which as you say he probably won't do anyway, and more utilization awareness, which is relatively no economic value to the consumer, but the smart grid is being put out there actually sold as a device highy beneficial to the consumer.  

Help the consumer do load prioritization is another benefit to the consumer???  S/he already knows s/he runs the laundry when s/he's awake and can take the cloths out and put them in the dryer, hopefully just as the low rate comes in.  If they're not doing it already, its probably because there's too much laundry to do between work and low cost times and they can't stay up all night doing it on the cheap.  And of course the one's that can afford it, don't care anyway, hence the low importance generally placed on load shifting.   And besides, there's really only so much load shifting you can do and still keep your body rythms in sync with a normal life.  Don't need smart grid for that.

Irrigation users are already pumping at night.  They don't need a smart grid to tell them how.

The only ones that need it are the utilities.  It seems they just don't want to pay for it from shareholders dividends.

**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Smart Grid

Quote (rbulsara):

Residential peak is inconsequential.
I don't know where you get your information, but that isn't true.  Our winter morning peaks wouldn't be in the 0500-0700 range if that were true.  We've also watched out summer peaks track the growth in residential air conditioning.  Residential can make a major difference.

RE: Smart Grid

I have no hard resources at hand. Just what I gathered over time.  I am under the impression that utility grid peaks normally occurs between 11 am and 2 pm, mostly due to industrial and commercial loads. Perhaps utility folks can chime in.  Or may be I live in very industrialized area. May be for large regions with little industrialization may have some different profile.

But the fact is that residential billing structure does not include demand charges, means that it does not really matter for managing demand.

Time of use charges are always in place of industrial and commercial users.

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Smart Grid

rbulsara wrote:    
"There is a reason there is no demand charge in residential billing structure in the USA. Residential peak is inconsequential."

Residential load makes up about 37% of total electrical load (US, 2007), so it's hardly inconsequential, and because of the lack of time-of-use incentives it tends to have a worse load factor than industrials.
The main reason there is no demand charge is not because it's not desirable but because there has never been a way to measure it!

BigInch:
You're right that the utilities will benefit from smart metering. However, there are some theoretical benefits for customers:
- less outages (due to better grid management / faster restoration)
- lower costs due to:
  - cheaper meter reads
  - less power plants due to load shifting
  - less grid equipment (being run closer to limits)

Of course, whether the customer will ever see any of the cost savings is a big question!

You're also right that much of the benefits of load shifting can be done without actual smart meters as long as the meters can measure on and off peak usage. Interestingly, residential meters in North America have never had that capability.

RE: Smart Grid

redfurry:
What stops utility companies to install demand reading meters for so many years?

People promoting (or talking about it in vain) residential smart meters etc, are assuming that the present utility system operators are dumb!

Smart and remote monitoring and data logging where it matters and justifiable is already in place. Even my water meter is read by wireless technology by my water supply corporation. But it is not intended to turn off my water supply when needed.

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Smart Grid

(OP)
Rerouting during outages?  99.995% reliability and 2 hours down per year is good enough for me.   I'd even bet smart meters won't change those numbers.  If somebody would come close to guaranteing that the cost would go down when smart meters are in place, that would be a sales pitch I could go along with, but nobody ever mentions it.  

Isn't the real answer, better insulation?  I'll bet that would save the consumer about 20% and the utility another whole power station, but then again insulation and not building power stations isn't their profit generator now is it.

**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Smart Grid

BigInch...FYI...

Some utilities actually have financial incentives for allowing the installation of load management systems in residential homes.  LMS transceivers are provided by the utility and are installed in homes to enable the distribution dispatchers to reduce overall load at peak times by actually turning off certain feeds in your home.  This is done be sending an encoded signal in the distribution lines from outbound modulating units located within distribution substations.  Obviously the user has to volunteer and comply with the changes in their overall power consumption "profile".

This has been around for a while, prior to the term "SmartGrid" being coined, and could be considered a "Smart Grid" technology.  However, I believe you're really just hung up on the political ramifications of such terminology.  New power system technologies across the board can, if implemented correctly, reduce costs for everyone involved.  Whether it is being hyped up and funded correctly by politicians is another subject.
 

RE: Smart Grid

The installation of "smart meters" is also forward looking for the time when electric cars are more numerous.  The power saved in the batteries of those electric cars could be used to supply peak demand.

RE: Smart Grid

(OP)
Let me get this straight.  I pay for batteries to go in my car so I can drive it to work and at 2-4pm the utility not only uses my storage capacity, but my electricity too and  ... I take a cab home and to work the next morning.  Don't think I like that one either.

**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Smart Grid

But if we do not have electric cars there would be no burden on electric grid! How would a battery in my car or home going to supply peak demand of the grid? Other than adding to the demand when charging it.


 

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Smart Grid

3
Power companies are no longer run by engineers. Accountants, lawyers, and Women's Studies grads are now in charge.  That explains why the Smart Grid is so exciting to everyone except those of us who still know what the hell is going on.

RE: Smart Grid

Charge the battery fully at night at the lowest rates of the day, drive to work in the morning and top it off at somewhat higher rates.  Let the utility buy back some of that capacity in the middle of the afternoon, but still leaving enough charge for the commute home, they pay for the power at peak rates, then start the cycle over again.

Some places the disparity between on peak and off peak, coupled with the must run generation, results in the wholesale electric market going negative in the middle of the night.  When that happens, you could get paid to charge the batteries at night and then get paid to return some of that back to the system during the day.  Sounds like a win-win.

RE: Smart Grid

What happens when you forget to unplug you car in the morning?
Or what happens if you forget to plug in your car at night?

Still the plug in car thing sounds bad.

And would it not take additional electronics to handle the conversion from DC to AC, then just being able to handle AC to DC (a diode and capacitor comes to mind).

Fix the problem with turning off your hot water heater, by switching to gas hot water.

 

RE: Smart Grid

3

Quote:

Fix the problem with turning off your hot water heater, by switching to gas hot water.
And you would also be able to take a hot shower when an ice storm knocks out power to thousands.  But then the smart meters will let the power company know that thousands are out of power, so all is well.

I more or less agree with 86ed.  A lot of this stuff has been around in one form or another.  One difference now is that before, you had to do an economic analysis to justify it.  Now, the government throws money at it so you have to do it to get the "free" money.  Another is the terminology.  I can't quite figure out why, but the term "smart grid" just grates me the wrong way.  Before the last few years, we didn't have a "grid" in the USA.  We had transmission and distribution systems.  Grids are what they had in Europe.
 

RE: Smart Grid

On the one hand, I understand the reasons for increasing the, what is it, utilization factor?  I.e., making sure there's very little excess capacity beyond what's needed.

On the other hand, we've already got that in the USA air travel system, which is, um, fragile.  One plane blows a tire, and every airport within a thousand miles is jammed up for the rest of the day.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Smart Grid

We (EU) do not have a choice any more. For several years, the law says that utilities shall read meters at least once/month.

So, new meters have been installed throughout. The reasoning behind this is (said to be) threefold: 1. Customer shall be billed more often so that money flows in streams rather than in chunks and 2. If customer sees that his electricity bill has increased one mont, she/he will do something about it so that next month's bill shall be lower (this is supposed to lessen energy usage and save our planet). And, lastly, 3. The new meters are said to be more correct - less measurement errors.

The AMR (automatic meter reading) is done in several ways. Some use PLC (power line communication), some use internet and some use radio communication. Most of these techniques have their problems. PLC, which I have been involved in, is disturbed by interference from VFDs and. In some areas, the utilities have just as many meter readers as before. Reading meters twelve times/year and having lots of systems floored by VFDs is the reason.

Also, very few people actually care. And fewer still try to do something to reduce energy usage. If they do it, it is because they want to save energy and not because they get a bill every month instead of every third month.

There is also a problem with some of the new meters. They give very high readings in certain cases.  I had a very interesting job a couple of months ago where I was asked to find the reason why some customers got their electricity bills almost doubled - in some cases even more - when the new meters were introduced. What I found is astonishing. Certain loads make the meters run between five and six times faster (making the bill five to six times bigger) and that is not because of faulty individual meters, but all meters from a certain manufacturer have the same problem.

This is now being handled centrally (national board of energy) and I am very interested in the outcome. It is about hundreds of thousands of meters only in Sweden. And zillions in Europe and the US.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...

RE: Smart Grid

(OP)
Skogs,  

Very interesting.  At my brother-in-law's new apartment, with smart meter, the renter received a bill for 600 Euros for November 2008's consumption. I looked into it and found the outside temperatures were not very low and the air heat was only operated for a few hours the whole month.  In short there was no way the meter could have been correct.  We had to hire an "approved" electrician to take a reading and send it to them.  It took an additional three months of fighting to get Endesa to send their own technician.  Fortunately he too agreed that the meter was wrong.  The meter was replaced, but none of the 600 Euros was ever refunded, despite repeated requests.  Endesa effectively stole what I figured to be around 525 Euros.  I wanted to take them to court, but my b-i-l did't want to press it.  Now I figure they're both to blame.

Can I ask the nature of the loads giving specific problems?

**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Smart Grid

If you have resistive load with dimmers (incandescent lamps, heaters and such with triac or thyristor control), you will see very large errors. I did tests with many different loads and it was only with dimmed resistive loads that I got errors. It is interesting to note that this kind of load is not specified in the tests that meters undergo. But it is not an uncommon load.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...

RE: Smart Grid

Gunnar,
Any idea why the errors occur?  Do the dimmers cause enough distortion to get multiple zero-crossings?
 

RE: Smart Grid

All I can see is that the failing meters seems to have a problem when conduction angle is less than 180 degrees. They handle all phase shifts and non-linearities well. But not current waveforms that are less than a full half-period.

I am afraid that only a few people at the manufacturer's lab know why this happens. And it is a long way before I get to talk to them - if ever...

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...

RE: Smart Grid

This wasen't the case when the old meters were designed. We did not have the dimmers.

New meters are a good idea, and in many places they are all the newer type. This also lets many utilities do AMR. And the same technology is in use for gas and water. However these meters can't shut off service.

The idea of prepaid electric was proposed many years ago, but turned down in several states as crual.
What is crual is the rest of us pay for part of the cost of all these turn off's and turn on's.

RE: Smart Grid

I notice from the website that RBulsara posts that his locality is Connecticut.  I don't think there is a lot of air conditioning load in CT.  So maybe their peak is as he states.  I live in Texas, and we run air conditioners a large part of the year.  Our peak is evenings when Mr. and Mrs. Joe Public get home and crank the air and begin to use other appliances.

When I first started working in the power industry over 30 years ago, the daily peak was sometime between 3-5 PM.  Now it has shifted to between 5-8 PM.  That is pure residential contribution.

What I see the smart grid and smart meters being down the road is a license for the power companies to steal from us by measuring demand and saying if you exceed demand limits during peak periods, you pay big time.  So what are you going to do, leave your AC off during the day while at work so that you don't exceed demand during the run up to the peak (or even when you get home and contribute to the peak) and come home to a sweltering house?

I see it as a license to steal.  I am hoping that it would work out something like what David Beech has presented and they offer a break on power charges to charge electric vehicles in the wee hours of the morning when they need load to keep units on line and operating at peak efficiency, but I doubt that it will be anything that will be to the average consumer's good.

rmw

RE: Smart Grid

David, I mispelled your name; I am sorry.

rmw

RE: Smart Grid

Quote:

What I see the smart grid and smart meters being down the road is a license for the power companies to steal from us by measuring demand and saying if you exceed demand limits during peak periods, you pay big time.
Why would charging customers a rate that better reflects actual costs be a "license to steal"?  There always have been demand related costs in residential loads, but because of metering costs it was not practical to bill them separately.  Demand costs were factored into the energy rates.
 

RE: Smart Grid

Quote:

All I can see is that the failing meters seems to have a problem when conduction angle is less than 180 degrees.
So what happens to current from switchmode power supplies in TV, computer, ecolamps etc?If the only load running is "electronic" does that fool the meter also?

Mark Empson
L M Photonics Ltd

RE: Smart Grid

Historical note: Smart Grid, if you want to call it that, has been around since the 1930s in Europe, called "Ripple Control" or "Rundsteuerung" in German. It involves audio frequency signals, injected at substation level, using coded pulses to activate tariff switching, street lighting, off-peak heating, water pumping, or boilers, for example.

Using pure electromechnaical receivers with tuned circuit relays, synchronous motor timers with contacts set at particular positions in the cycle time of 30 seconds (in one system), about 25 different commands are available.

Transmitters were HF MG sets injecting pulses via contactors and filters at the HV level, say 10KV or even 110kV. Injected power is from tens of KW to hundreds of KW. Today this is done via thyristor systems and software based technology still compatible with the old equipment previously installed. Frequencies used are from 185Hz to over 1000Hz, depending on the network, and neighboring networks. Adjacent networks have to use differing frequencies to avoid interference.

rasevskii

 

RE: Smart Grid

Mark, that is what I am going to check next. But have to do some travelling first. Will be back with the results in a couple of weeks.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...

RE: Smart Grid

It is politician driven as far as I see.  Smart Grid has been implemented only as smart meters so that the government founds (tax payers money) as quickly allocated and sent.  I have seen our IT guys installed more severs and storage but raw data is still raw data, flooded.  There is a huge difference between data and information, without data analyzing processing, raw data has no value to utility but chunk of equipment added. We had a AC failure recently in the server room, IT guys can cook eggs on top of their server!

Regulators speak smartly "they do not want spend pennies today to build more power plants just to meet the peak demand (caused by industrial and commercial customers)". So, smart meters implementation seems to be a good way to smooth out the demand profile. Okay, 37% of demand is contributed by residential customers, so what?  Most residential customers are already in a position to consume their kWh at off-peak hours.  There is no more room for them to squeeze.  One presentation at a annual utility conference showed their "penny saving" by implementing the smart meter - if the home owners strictly follow the guideline to use electricity smartly, i.e. do your laundry at mid night, cook dinner after 730pm, tweak up your thermostat for cooling and do the opposite way for heating, guess what "the annual electricity saving for a 3bdrm household is about 26 bucks", and the presenter added his comment - most family paid more.

One of the advantage is Smart Meters can allow utility to disconnect without facing the end users, give me a break!  Polices are not for good guys!

Electricity demand will grow anyways as more equipment and more automation in industries, more shopping malls and stores around, more home electronics..., say you don't build power plant today, given the fact the regulators know the load forecast, how about 20 years after.  Will it be cheaper to build a power plant by then?  

Power industry has no revaluation for more than hundred years.  Smart grid will not change the status either.

RE: Smart Grid

"And their point about needing a smart grid for switching solar panels to grid when there's a peak doesn't seem to make sense either.  Why not just charge batteries, feed to grid during peak hours, or shut off at night. "

Interestingly, PGE will not allow any grid-tie system with battery storage. I don't quite know why. The G-T inverters all shut down when isolated ("anti-islanding") anyhow.

It makes zero sense for a homeowner to invest in battery plant for sell-back; but many do want batteries for grid-replacement when Montgomery Burn's Springfield Nuclear Power Plant takes a dive.

BTW: There is one other thing smart meters MIGHT offer a utility, if so designed. It would allow them to stagger the restarting load of recovering from a blackout.



 

RE: Smart Grid

If you have ever looked at the regulators or the electricity trading house above the utilities you'd probably find the real cents/kWh can be all over the place. In my area, there was an odd 2x cost peak last night around 8pm and this morning the cost peaked at over 2x around 3am, being high from 1-4am. This instantaneous hydro rate is about as predictable as the stock market and peaks can occur at any time, not just during high demand periods.

Picking arbitrary times to charge for higher rates doesn't consumer sense if the utility doesn't see that higher rate on their front end. Telling consumers to pay for the actual rate won't fix any demand issues, since the actual rate varies constantly and peaks costs change day to day.

Besides, I could never quite figure out how the presently touted smart metering scheme would completely fix demand problems. Say the utility charges a higher rate until 7pm. I'd think this would just lead to a lot of residential customers begin to wait to turn their ovens on until about 7:05pm, or timing their hot water heater until just after 7pm, or waiting on laundry until just after 7pm. So the utility change to 8pm and the same thing happens but some people give up waiting. Change again to 9pm and then everyone gives up waiting and instead just pays the higher cost to cook and do laundry at a normal time.

 

RE: Smart Grid

Has anyone consitered that much of the smart grid stuff is just a marketing scheme to get utility executives to fund marginal projects.

Sort of like the drug comercials on TV.

RE: Smart Grid

(OP)
Yes.  That's why I initiated this thread; to see if any distribution engineers could say anything in its favor.  So far, not much and still nothing that can't be done right now without it.  It apparently only helps billing, but I'm sure more than that must be on the way.  I just don't know what ugly monster will raise its head.

**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Smart Grid

No one has mentioned the other side of the coin... smart appliances.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Smart Grid

Benefits of Smart Meters:
- ability to read remotely (cheaper)(Who will pay the bill for the meters)
- ability to easily disconnect people who don't pay their bills (Correct but who will maintain the equipment)
- prevents certain types of power theft (If they can stole the power they can always do no matter smart meter or not
- makes time of use rates possible/flexible (We tried in China in 1990s it did not work)
- allows users to see details of their power usage (via web interfaces, etc)(90% of customer don't carefull the details but the total)

Any thing new?
 

RE: Smart Grid

"I don't know where you get your information, but that isn't true.  Our winter morning peaks wouldn't be in the 0500-0700 range if that were true.  We've also watched out summer peaks track the growth in residential air conditioning.  Residential can make a major difference."

Could be on top of the other loads

RE: Smart Grid

You're right that the utilities will benefit from smart metering. However, there are some theoretical benefits for customers:
- less outages (due to better grid management / faster restoration)(I think mixed outages and restoration time) forced outages can not be avoided)
- lower costs due to:
  - cheaper meter reads
  - less power plants due to load shifting (???????????? Are you sure )
  - less grid equipment (being run closer to limits)(Nobody runs grid to teh limits)

All your statements are textbooks ideas.



 

RE: Smart Grid

I think people get hung up on the 'Smart Grid' thing because of the term, which is purely a marketing thing. 'Smart Grid' isn't really anything new, it's just a continuation of the trends that have been going on for the last 20 years and which are happening faster and faster due to digital technology.

Consider the technology that has changed in the last 2-3 decades on distribution systems:
- GIS, OMS systems
- SCADA data at substations (and increasingly in the field)
- multifunction digital relays
- fiber optic communications
- sophisticated billing systems etc.
Everything that's being said about the so-called 'Smart Grid' technologies was said about these but today virtually every utility, even small coops, have most of these technologies in place.

The following trends are happening right now:
- data collection at any point in the system (smart meters, MDM, more SCADA)
- remote control of more and more field devices
- DMS systems and closed-loop control of voltage regulation devices and switching
- more and smaller distributed generation (for both technical and political/social reasons)

Up to now the changes have been incremental, but my prediction (for what it's worth!) is that in the next decade or two we're going to see a huge growth in local energy storage. When this happens the changes in the distribution business will be dramatic because we can finally break the coupling between generation and demand. Even fairly small levels of power storage will lead to microgrids, increased choice in energy supply, better ability to integrate poor generation sources (like wind), etc.


Will it be cheaper for customers? - no.
Will it happen anyway? - yes.

RE: Smart Grid

Personally, I'm sure around here the government is paying a large chunk of the meter installation costs in the name of improvement and the utilities are just playing along because it'll make the collection side of things much easier for them once they can stop manually reading meters.

The new peak rate structure is this.

CODE

Time Period              ¢/kWh
7 am to 11 am Mid-Peak   8.0
11 am to 5 pm On-Peak    9.9
5 pm to 9 pm Mid-Peak    8.0
Weekends & Holidays      5.3

I guess only time will tell if residential customers are willing to shift their usage. I might install a timer or 2. Presently, the ¢/kWh portion of my bill is about 1/3 of the total bill, so these price changes really won't have a huge impact. If other TOD demand charges are added as well then I can see taking more care.
 
 

RE: Smart Grid

"Has anyone consitered that much of the smart grid stuff is just a marketing scheme to get utility executives to fund marginal projects."

Like Broadband over PowerLines????
 

RE: Smart Grid

(OP)
Lionel,
 
What's the rate between 2100 and  0700, is it 5.3 ?

**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Smart Grid

I agree with the gist of what redfurry said in his last post (3 May 10, 16:30). I just don't have the patience to write that much.  

Business and market absorb the best available technology available that meets business objectives and to that degree it is already happening. As for smart home meters, it not a matter of whether or not they work or whether they any better, but if they are needed. The answer is probably not, otherwise they would have been already embraced by the utility companies. They are in the business to make money too. If the customer wants to cut down his bills, he needs to find his own ways, utility or any other business is not going to do it for them.



 

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Smart Grid

Biginch - yes, 5.3.

I'm wathcing to see if other items that are billed go to a time of day structure. The difference between 5.3 cents and 8 cents or even 9.9 cents will change my bill maybe about $10 to $12 a month if I do not time shift any loads.

RE: Smart Grid

I get more and more invitations to join seminars and meetings where the Smart Grid (or SG as even the DOE calls it these days).

I then remebered the outage around seven years ago (thread238-67677: Big blackout. What happened?) and the discussion that followed. I was told that my ideas were unrealistic and not pratical and too expensive. What we see today is much more than I proposed or thought possible.

Anything we can learn from that?

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...

RE: Smart Grid

Personally I believe this thing has the potential, in the eyes of the voters, to make the 55 MPH speed limit look small.

RE: Smart Grid

(OP)
I've seen some seminar programs lately that make it look something like 220 VAC internet is on the way.

**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Smart Grid

(OP)
on the way ..  out.  Makes sense from what I've seen so far.

 

**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Smart Grid

Wow, a couple of statements here just make me shake my head.

Residential peaks are inconsequential?  What the?  That is total nonsense!  Our modest sized utility peaks just when you think it would, when people are getting ready to go to school and work, i.e. around 0800.  I added a control area load plot that shows that behavior.

Obviously there are many variables involved with peaking conditions such as temperature, etc.  The attached plot is indicative of a pure non-heating/non-cooling load behavior.  Our temperatures are in the mid-60's right now.  Note the ~500 MW swing that occurs.  Presently we are peaking at the start of the business day--when it gets warmer we will see peaks around 1700-1800 or so.  

Anyway, there are some really incorrect statements made about load behavior on this posting by people who must not be in the business of generating electricity.  Hopefully this plot helps people understand the load behavior (which has numerous personalities to say the least).

No question on smart grid--it is political.  However, that IS the reality of the world right now.

RE: Smart Grid

Do not confuse energy consumption, size of loads, system capacity, etc. with peak demand management.

 

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Smart Grid

Energy consumption IS the driver of peak demand management!  If you work at a utility you simply review historical SCADA information, plot your peaks, figure out what load components drive that peak, and manage accordingly.  Every utility is different.  

I suspect that you do NOT work at a utility since you tend to make blanket categorical statements.  As I stated before, load behavior is influenced by many factors.  Every utility is different as far as when peaks occur, and those peaks occur at different times throughout the year.  Your statement that "residential peak is inconsequential" is simply incorrect.  There may be some utilities where that is the case, however, as a general statement it is utterly false.  As noted by others, and by myself, residential load behavior is absolutely a component of peak load (for certain service territories) and therefore, the management of peak load.  Our total system peaks are driven by A/C and resistive heating loads--those peaks occur not during the middle of the day, but rather the shoulder hours when people start going home.

You need to support your statements with empirical evidence.  Do YOU have any data to share?
 

RE: Smart Grid

Quote:

Energy consumption IS the driver of peak demand management!
.
That ends my interest for the discussion. Perhaps, all those utility companies, are dumb that they do not charge or care for demand on residential meters.

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Smart Grid

2
No we're not dumb. We just realize that individual residential demand is not so variable that we need a more expensive meter to accurately capture it and charge separately for it. All wrapped up in the energy and basic charges. Same with power factor.

And it doesn't matter whether or not an individual residence is hitting its peak coincidentally with the grid. We can still cut the grid demand by preventing the water heater in that residence from cycling during that period even if nothing else is on in the house. The customer incentive would not be to reduce their demand charge, it would be to take advantage of a lower load control rate.

Please mark me down as being in favor of smart metering, both as a utility engineer and as a utility customer.   

RE: Smart Grid

This only shows that accountants do have a place in engineering, after all! They are an effective counterbalance to some madness.

Another fact that goes against this smart meters for homes is that it is completely against the life style and expectations of the citizens, especially in the USA (and other developed worlds too). Shutting off individual residential power to manage demand is not an option (except in case of emergencies). If we come to that point, we will install new generation and capacity because we can. Asking to turn off a home water heater to manage demand or even save energy, is like asking Americans to give up cars to minimize carbon foot print, money or energy!!!

We all are excited to talk about being green and all, but going back to horse-carts is not an option, even if that is the greenest solution, including the dropping of the horses!

( I clarify Again, demand management has little do with energy savings.)
 

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Smart Grid

Ah, now that is a useful statement.  Demand management has little to do with energy savings in aggregate--absolutely true.  Shaving peaks off tends to fill in the valleys on a load curve.  

However, if you have ever purchased wholesale power in a perturbed energy market you will soon realize that demand management saves MONEY.  If a utility does not have to either run expensive peakers or buy expensive wholesale power to cover a peak then that utility saves real dollars.   

RE: Smart Grid

If you don't also cut off industrial, and commercial customers when you cut off residential customers, what exactly would you expect to happen?

At some point the residential customers will reason that since they pay more for electricty, they should have priority (sort of line natural gas). And because residential customers are normally also voters, they will over time get there way.

The only way that I see to make cutting off hotwater heaters, or air equipment is to make a transfer of money. This maybe a rate discount, or a peak time energy charge.

RE: Smart Grid

My utility (Excel in the US) offers a 15% discount on summer electrical bills in exchange for the privilege of installing a switch which will shut off my air conditioning (for a max of 1 hour at a time I think).

So, they obviously think that residential demand management is valuable (I doubt they're doing it just for fun), and are willing to offer the customer a deal to do so.

RE: Smart Grid

That's because it's to tehir benefit:
> No need to increase production
> No need to add transmission lines
> No irate corporate customers; while residential customers are voters, corporate customers are donors.  Guess which one speak louder, particularly since the Supreme Court has ruled that a company has unlimited contributions.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Smart Grid

Corporate and industrial customers are already, an rightly so, part of the demand management. But not by force, but by offering them monetary incentives. Look up "Demand Response Programs". It works, because most industries, hospitals, and other large users have standby power generation on hand and they are willing use them, given a monetary incentive. This programs are offered to even a small customer with stand by generation, where it makes sense.

Even that has to qualify as an "emergency" measure, to allow to run standby generations spewing CO2 and NOXs.

Turning off power automatically to any one, even industrial customers, is not an option in the USA. We manage demand for maximizing use of the existing installations for economic reasons and not because we are poor and have no other alternative. Any "smarts" required for such demand management is already in use without calling them smarts.

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Smart Grid

So is the smart grid thing a manaditory thing, or will we have a choice? I know how it is now, but what will it become?

I also don't understand how, or why so many people actually think the electric cars will be used to power the grid during mid days. It will take a two way inverter, and a communications medium, as well as a payback rate that everyone involved (utility, and car owner) thinks is fair.

RE: Smart Grid

Lets see, you get home, turn on the HVAC, the TV, the lights, and plug in your car.

A moment latter the smart meter shuts off your HVAC, and the charger for your car. And maybe thell expand it to also turn off your lights, and TV.

That will feel good the sit is a nice hot house, in the dark, with no TV. How fast can you call yor congressman?
Oh, thats right, since your phone will be tied to your computer it won't work either.

That progress.

RE: Smart Grid

Smart meter talks to smart thermostat via Zigbee to have your house pre-cooled/heated when you get home. This is done on a rolling basis so that all HVAC units do not cycle together. When you plug in the car, inverter checks battery state, and if sufficient begins discharging it to offset the use of TV and lights. Later on when the TVs and lights are off and the t-stat is in setback mode, car battery is fully charged in time for the morning commute. When called, congressman will kindly ask you speak to the utility regarding their other more expensive offerings.  

RE: Smart Grid

cranky108:
We and those before us, the lesser mortals, could not do it with just the battery/inverters/chargers on the garage floor, but now that smart people have invented the smart battery holder called the electric car, it will work now!! Stay tuned.

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Smart Grid

I only wish things can be so rosey. But working for a utility for so many years has made me a realist.

Wind hasen't become anywhere near as promised, so why should any of us believe that smart grid will also.

Everytime I hear the tv ad about the wind on the plains, I wonder why those people by the sea are awake that late at night (joke is the wind on the plains blows mainly at night).

 

RE: Smart Grid

Quote:

Turning off power automatically to any one, even industrial customers, is not an option in the USA.
Interruptible industrial rates are common in the SE USA.  The utility can interrupt the customer if there are shortages in generation or transmission capacity.  It rarely happens, so it becomes a good deal for some industries.

RE: Smart Grid

jghrist:
Yes, I am aware of that. Interruptible rates exist even where there is no demand management crisis. It just a economic business structure on the line of you get what you pay for. Interruptible rate does not mean, interrupting at will or on daily or even monthly basis. But just that the load is not given a top priority like say a hospital would be given or no special measures for a back up feeders or automatic transfers are built by the utility. In a true sense all utility services are interruptible, as  there is never a guarantee of no loss of power. Routine peak demand management does not constitute an emergency.   

Even those participating in demand response programs are given at least 30 minutes of advance notice with a "request" to take action. We, as a developed nation, are fully capable of meeting the demands of "normal" business and industries. It is not the intent or in the interest of a developed country not to build capacities to serve what is needed. Demand management is only intended to use maximum extent of the installed capacity, not to stifle growth or restrict daily lives.

The difference between engineers, businessmen, accountants and politicians is very evident in this thread.  Engineers want to use everything they "can" make, while market and society only accepts or adopts what is needed or useful.  
Many "capabilities" of smart meters, such as automatic sensing and turning off power, are not really required nor have been embraced by the market for exactly the same reason.
 

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Smart Grid

ATT was/is a participant in the Demand Response loadshedding programs. In Sept. 1991 in NYC, they brought down their major NYC leased-line facility when they moved to generators, and had "rectifier" trips. [Everything runs on BIG -48V battery strings.] Not an issue except ALL the power guys were at training for the new alarm system..

I've always wondered re: resi HVAC loadshedding. I'd think it would be a far easier sell if it was not in hour plus chunks, but say 15 min/hour man for a given house.
 

RE: Smart Grid

I actually don't think we need it, or the super powerlines the Fed's think we do.

Market pricing is nice, but with a binning process in the meters, and a one way radio siginal, we can do that now without the high speed communications.
Besides studies have shown that most residential customers won't change there habits due to small rate changes.

To make large changes you probally need to attach an advanced rate to industrials.

When you propose forcing people to use less, under any means, then it's nothing but big goverment.

RE: Smart Grid

What is not to like about Smart Grid?  

1) it will give the utilities and eventually the government full access to information about what you are doing and when.

2) it will give the utilities and eventually the government a reason to charge and tax more for the same service we already recieve.

3) it will give the utilities and government the ability to turn off smart appliances.

4) it will give the government the opportunity to promote a whole new line of appliances as "green"; nothing better than environmental consumerism.

5) it has already given the utilities and government permission to NOT construct needed facilities, instead substituting imagined resources.

5) it is a new and catchy name for power rationing, time of day billing and curtailment, that have existed since the dawning of electricity.

6) it is something better understood by journalism and sociology students than engineering students and therein lies the popularity :)

(and it has nothing to do with remote meter reading which is old school and already deployed by many utilities)

RE: Smart Grid

(OP)
Electic,

You might have hit the big something there with your power rationing theory.  If its true that 100 nuclear plants must be built over the next 20 yrs to keep up with demand, and 0 of 10 have not begun permitting already this year, and they will cost round about 1 trillion $ to build, brown/black outs may become a lot more common in the future then what we've been used to.  That explains all the flash and benign words being used too.

**********************
"Being GREEN isn't easy" ..Kermit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Smart Grid

Electic, BigInch:

It is not very nice to take candy away from kids!

Plus what is wrong with utility company or govt. telling us when to take a hot shower or do our laundry? I think more they decide for us, the better. As that frees up our minds and we can concentrate on more important things and be more productive!

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Smart Grid

Now the utility company I work the title of the planning division was changed to "Smart Grid". The name which we have been using in the past 60 years was simply vanished.
Thanks to "smart grid"  

RE: Smart Grid

From the sparks of the tempest, "You don't know the difference as you put on the yoak".

yes I think I spelled it wrong too.

RE: Smart Grid

I noted this well painted picture on another forum.  Personally I think this is the sad future - Orwellian society.

Quote (Bean):


The "smart grid" will rely on "smart meters" and "smart receptacles" and "smart plugs" to ration power based on criteria. How much power do YOU get? It depends on what YOU use it for and what YOUR carbon footprint is.

The plans are already in place and the devices being tested in several markets. Dozens of companies are in the game and YOU the consumer have nothing to gain and everything to lose.

Your AC unit will cost more to run per KWh than your water heater or alarm clock. Instead of tiered rates based on overall usage, you will pay tiered rates based on the TYPE of usage and or your personal (or family) carbon footprint, and historical usage rates, and or local standards.

Somebody will determine what an acceptable AC thermostat level is and fine you, (on your bill), for power used if the thermostat is set lower than the acceptable temperature. They may also outright LOCK your thermostat or other devices to pre-approved levels or usage windows.

Try this on for size:
You have your AC set at 70 degrees. The powers that be decide that in Area X, (where you live), that 76 degrees is the acceptable standard for homes. Meanwhile 2 states away, the energy supply to Area Y is maxed. The "smart grid" decides that it needs to divert power to Area Y. The "smart grid" asks the "smart meters" to report what users are running "luxury items". YOUR meter reports that YOU are running your AC at 70 degrees and the local acceptable setting is 76 degrees. So, the "Smart grid" tells your "smart meter" to shut down the "smart receptacle" that is running your AC unit and only cycle it at 76 degrees as needed to maintain the "acceptable" temperature. At the same time your "smart meter" talks to your "smart plug" on your coffee pot and turns it OFF because coffee is a luxury and the power required to run it is needed elsewhere.

Bypassing the "smart receptacles" will be a felony, just like bypassing any other utility system meter or control device. Conspiracy theory? Nope... dozens of companies are already producing and testing the products, and draft legislation is already being marked up to give control of your thermostat, and electrical devices to the government. Europe is already rolling out these systems and is scheduled to go live in 2013.

Do you honestly think that a fish tank will be allowed, or that 62" TV set?  What happens when the meter decides that you can only watch the 20" set due to your carbon footprint for the month?

You may want to read some of the laws already enacted in Europe and being drafted here. No joke, a government body is going to decide when and what you can power. All new electrical devices will have smart meter compatible addressing in them so that the "smart receptacle, meter, and grid", can identify them and control them when needed.

Just because we have the ability to monitor and control something does not mean that we necessarily should.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Smart Grid

Quote:

I noted this well painted picture on another forum.  Personally I think this is the sad future - Orwellian society.
This will only come about with government action.  Private utilities have no incentive to do any of this.  We still have the ability to choose our government, so let's choose representatives who will not impose this stuff on us.
 

RE: Smart Grid

Quote:

This will only come about with government action.  Private utilities have no incentive to do any of this.  We still have the ability to choose our government, so let's choose representatives who will not impose this stuff on us.

OK, but just think about some of the other "stuff" that's been imposed on us and ask yourself if you believe an election would change anything.

 

RE: Smart Grid

Quote:

Private utilities have no incentive to do any of this.

I ponder this more and have to ask exactly why a utility would not want the ability to selectively direct a limited amount of power to the highest bidders?
 

RE: Smart Grid

Regulated utilities aren't allowed a profit that exceeds a percentage of invested plant. And non-profit utilities don't make any profit. So selling to the highest bidder isen't that attractive.

On the non-regulated side, there is a profit motive. But diverting power from the regulated customers to the non-regulated side is foolish in todays political world.

If the smart grid is actually controlled by the goverment, then can we really call it smart?

RE: Smart Grid

I wasn't referring to any present utility price or regulation structure...
 

RE: Smart Grid

Actually industrial customers are the big users, and there price is lower than that of resedential. So selling to the highest bidder woulden't be cutting power to resedential.

This looks more like providing power to the most politically connected, and cutting power to you low lifes.

RE: Smart Grid

So instead of basing opinions on facts, let's speculate wildly.

RE: Smart Grid

Ok.. um.. ok.. I know!
Let's speculate that North Korea would randomly torpedo a South Korean corvette.   Naw! , that would be ridiculous and absurd!

Let me change from that absurd speculation to....  How about.... The stock market dropping about a thousand points then returning in an hour!

Ah.. I'm being moronic!

I'll try to be more realistic.  How about.. as they are setting the tables for a 'Job Well Done, and a Safety Awards, combined banquet" for finishing a technically challenging deep ocean oil well, the well blows out, incinerates, and sinks the pending banquet and a 2 billion dollar ship! Lets cap it off by having a multi-million dollar five story blowout preventer fail to-do-anything!!

Ah no, this is just too wild. I give up..




I guess my point is that if stuff like this can happen, then having the power companies and politicians running their everyday Divide and Conquer schemes against us, using 'political correctness' and 'environmental concern' to control our energy and wallets - doesn't really surprise me.  You only have to look at how they banned incandescent bulbs to replace them with compact fluorescents.

 

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Smart Grid

Keith, you can add that the government would never use the current fuel injection systems in trucks to impose and enforce a speed limit... Oh wait, that's happened too.

 

RE: Smart Grid

Sustained progress requires distinguishing a glitch from a boondoggle so you don't spend all your resources for no result.  

Experience provides the necessary visual acuity.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Smart Grid

(OP)
Don't confuse the obfuscation of progress with cute gimics designed to sap government grants, misuse tax credits and increase costs to consumers in its name only.  Having read quite a lot about this "thing" now, its plainly obvious to me that nobody knows what it is, nobody is even going to be able to handle the data generated by it, never mind ever make any productive use of it, and a lot of companies will be lined up at the slop trough until quite a few more cities figure out exactly what it is under the sheets and they too bail, or be crushed under its weight.  Until more is understood about exactly what it is, how it will be used, and if they can even handle the data generated from it, there seems to be little need for pumping money into it like its the only solution to not building more nuclear plants.  They're already 10 years behind on building the nucs that they damn well know will be needed and for which they have no alternative better technology at this time.  The only way I'd go along with this smart grid at present is if someone convinced me it would lead to the flux capacitor being invented to finally make it work.   

"I am sure it can be done. I've seen it on the internet."  BigInch's favorite client.

"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermitfrog http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com

RE: Smart Grid

I can see that this thread is still running. No wonder.

I posted my findings about energy meters (see post 1 May 10 0:28) more than four months ago and I made my measurements more than six months ago. The utility that I did the work for sent my report to the national board of energy and also to the accredited body that has approved the meters for a comment.

I still haven't got that comment from any of the organizations and am contemplating to make the report public. I can see some legal issues, but the work is mine and I think that the copyright should be mine. I haven't signed any special agreements about non-disclosure. Anyone having insights in how I could proceed? Or should I not?
 

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...

RE: Smart Grid

>>>... The utility that I did the work for ...<<<

Here in The Colonies, that's a "work for hire". ... and not yours to release or distribute.



 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Smart Grid

Probably the same here. But I think that these facts need to be known. It isn't about a few percent...

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...

RE: Smart Grid

(OP)
Yes.  Very basically, if you agreed to do the work for pay than got paid for it, it's not yours; never was and never will be.  If you didn't get paid, persue that aspect, otherwise let the report lay right where it is.

"I am sure it can be done. I've seen it on the internet."  BigInch's favorite client.

"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermitfrog http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com

RE: Smart Grid

Skogs,

While I am not a lawyer, and don't know anything in particular about Swedish law, from a common sense perspective, there should be nothing keeping you from redoing the work on your own time, and writing up the results again. I would encourage you to do the measurements, analysis, and write-up somewhat differently this time -- I'm sure that with the months you've been thinking about this, you have thought about ways to improve all three. They may own your original report, but not your knowledge.

My only reservation on this is that you think that you hae uncovered something so inflammatory that the powers that be would employ unfair means to keep the information suppressed.

Do you know any investigative journalists (on-line or print) that would be interested in a hot sotry from a "whistleblower"?

Curt

RE: Smart Grid

Quote (Skogsgurra):

      
10 Sep 10 14:05
I can see that this thread is still running. No wonder.

I posted my findings about energy meters (see post 1 May 10 0:28) more than four months ago and I made my measurements more than six months ago. The utility that I did the work for sent my report to the national board of energy and also to the accredited body that has approved the meters for a comment.

I still haven't got that comment from any of the organizations and am contemplating to make the report public. I can see some legal issues, but the work is mine and I think that the copyright should be mine. I haven't signed any special agreements about non-disclosure. Anyone having insights in how I could proceed? Or should I not?


I figured out what you can do Gunnar.

Instead of releasing The Test Results, write a white paper on how you do the testing.

Make it cook book style so anybody with the interest can get the test set up and do it.  There are people who want to know, but don't know where to start.  There are media organizations who would like to know, but don't know where to start.  With a white paper non-technicals can approach technicals and ask them to, "run this test".

You'll then have lots of people showing up with valid results and lots of questions.  If the media doesn't do it themselves someone will get them involved.  If the media has a rational white paper to reference as the test procedure, they won't fear that the provider is just a wacko with an axe to grind.
 

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

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