Smart Grid
Smart Grid
(OP)
I started hearing about the "smart grid" and was confused as to why it was supposedly needed.
http://smartenergynewsroom.com/
I must admit that I had no idea that you guys don't know when my power goes off. But actually I find that hard to believe. Surely you must see something; a drop in load, voltage levels increase? Even I can see lower gas flows and higher outlet pressures, even though I may not know what every customer is using, I will have realtime pressure, temperature and flows at gas sources and at the high demand clients. If its true you're operating blind, I can see where a smart grid offers advantages to the grid operators to get hold of some information from critical points in the system, but is it really true you must have access to my home distribution panel?
I suppose every bit counts and raising my thermostat by 1 degree x 1E6 users might enable a peak generator to be switched off, but I have some suspicion that there is more to this than 1 degree. Who knows, it might save me a doller or two, as long as they turn the thermostat on the airconditioner up one degree and the heater down one... and they don't return it to position too early. However I still have some difficulty believing its not the fox guarding the chicken house, or worse, more like the 3 piggies and the wolf... "Come out, come out, or I'll blow your house down!" kinda' thing. I think a "smart-enough" grid can be implementing critical grid point monitoring alone and there isn't really any need at all to monitor my personal energy usage.
An article about smart grid installation in Italy said that 30 million new meters would generate 500 million in revenue, apparently revenue somehow unbilled now, so it was a great incentive. That's 16 Euros/meter and I was billed 75 euros for mine, that's 2.25 billion. Out of 2.75 billion I guess they probably made 1.5 billion on it. So, isn't this just a clever way to get the customer to pay for the network SCADA upgrade by installing things that can be directly billed to the end user and make a few billion in the process, rather than put a few monitors at critical points?
Isn't the personal energy usage manager just a clever add-on to get an excuse to put in a meter that knows when I'm using electricity in my hydroponic basement garden, or can determine if I or the neighbors are bypassing a meter and stealing electricity outright?
It seems if it were really as hot a topic as they say, there would be some chatter about implementing it in this forum already too. So, why so quiet about the smart grid? What's the engineering viewpoint on the smart grid? Most of the things they say are advantages for me can be done with a $10 timer on my hot water heater.
http://smartenergynewsroom.com/
I must admit that I had no idea that you guys don't know when my power goes off. But actually I find that hard to believe. Surely you must see something; a drop in load, voltage levels increase? Even I can see lower gas flows and higher outlet pressures, even though I may not know what every customer is using, I will have realtime pressure, temperature and flows at gas sources and at the high demand clients. If its true you're operating blind, I can see where a smart grid offers advantages to the grid operators to get hold of some information from critical points in the system, but is it really true you must have access to my home distribution panel?
I suppose every bit counts and raising my thermostat by 1 degree x 1E6 users might enable a peak generator to be switched off, but I have some suspicion that there is more to this than 1 degree. Who knows, it might save me a doller or two, as long as they turn the thermostat on the airconditioner up one degree and the heater down one... and they don't return it to position too early. However I still have some difficulty believing its not the fox guarding the chicken house, or worse, more like the 3 piggies and the wolf... "Come out, come out, or I'll blow your house down!" kinda' thing. I think a "smart-enough" grid can be implementing critical grid point monitoring alone and there isn't really any need at all to monitor my personal energy usage.
An article about smart grid installation in Italy said that 30 million new meters would generate 500 million in revenue, apparently revenue somehow unbilled now, so it was a great incentive. That's 16 Euros/meter and I was billed 75 euros for mine, that's 2.25 billion. Out of 2.75 billion I guess they probably made 1.5 billion on it. So, isn't this just a clever way to get the customer to pay for the network SCADA upgrade by installing things that can be directly billed to the end user and make a few billion in the process, rather than put a few monitors at critical points?
Isn't the personal energy usage manager just a clever add-on to get an excuse to put in a meter that knows when I'm using electricity in my hydroponic basement garden, or can determine if I or the neighbors are bypassing a meter and stealing electricity outright?
It seems if it were really as hot a topic as they say, there would be some chatter about implementing it in this forum already too. So, why so quiet about the smart grid? What's the engineering viewpoint on the smart grid? Most of the things they say are advantages for me can be done with a $10 timer on my hot water heater.
**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/






RE: Smart Grid
The basic and fundamental flaw is that the residential peak time never coincides with the peak of a grid. When people are getting up in the morning or reaching home in the evening and cooking etc, are off-peak hours. So there is no need to automatically turn of a domestic appliance to help utility meet their demand.
As far as cutting back the usage (energy savings) goes, you do not need smart gizmos that are being pushed.
No wonder there is so quiet about smart grid in real engineering circles.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: Smart Grid
Speaking about charging batteries, that doesn't even make sense either. Batteries are a pretty expensive way to store electricity. As a domestic consumer, I'd opt for a net-payback w/o batteries as a much more economical system for me, if I had that option. BTW, utilities in Spain have conspired to make net-payback impossible here, so I don't. Anyway, wouldn't batteries for a large utility scale solar installation be prohibitingly expensive to implement that strategy? Wouldn't it be better to VSD some peak gas turbine somewhere, rather than mess around with battery storage? ... even if you're a utility?
There seems to be a lot more advantages for the power company than for me. My biggest load is hot water and I've got that one covered and paid back already. Saved that $10 timer cost during the first month. (The salesman in the hardware store wanted to sell me a $150 timer... Ya really.) The more I think about this smart grid, the less I like it. But maybe we'll all get cheaper electricity out of it. Ya... like that's gonna' happen...not.
**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
How manageable is a SCADA system with 3 million inputs going to be for Houston, Texas area alone? There is something wrong with this smart grid implementation logic they're dishing up. I'm afraid that this is gonna' be the biggest Trojan horse ever rolled up to the castle gate ... EVER. Its a perfect excuse to take over AOL, MSN, Google ... EVERYBODY. Not that that alone might not be good, but at least I can still say "No" to MSN and internet-TV, but I can't manage to say no to utility power... not yet anyway. When power comes bundled with internet-TV and internet-airconditioning and internet-hot water. WOW! That's it! That's gotta' be what they're really after. Trojan Power!
**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
In fact the time of use rate has the biggest effect that I've seen on water pumping applications like irrigation.
RE: Smart Grid
Benefits of Smart Meters:
- ability to read remotely (cheaper)
- ability to easily disconnect people who don't pay their bills
- prevents certain types of power theft
- makes time of use rates possible/flexible
- allows users to see details of their power usage (via web interfaces, etc)
Smart Meters are not connected to the SCADA system, they are generally fed into a separate MDM (Meter Data Management) system which refreshes much more slowly than SCADA.
Typically, most distribution systems DO peak at about 5pm during peak residential usage, so there's a strong incentive to reduce residential usage at that time through time of use rates and through demand management (those systems where they will control your water heater / air conditioner).
I'm not sure about the comment about switching solar. Mostly solar is left on all the time. It's generally a good source of DG because it follows the system peak fairly well. The only connection between Smart Grid and solar, is that the additional monitoring/sensors in Smart Grid make it easier to manage a lot of DG on a distribution system.
RE: Smart Grid
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: Smart Grid
Help the consumer do load prioritization is another benefit to the consumer??? S/he already knows s/he runs the laundry when s/he's awake and can take the cloths out and put them in the dryer, hopefully just as the low rate comes in. If they're not doing it already, its probably because there's too much laundry to do between work and low cost times and they can't stay up all night doing it on the cheap. And of course the one's that can afford it, don't care anyway, hence the low importance generally placed on load shifting. And besides, there's really only so much load shifting you can do and still keep your body rythms in sync with a normal life. Don't need smart grid for that.
Irrigation users are already pumping at night. They don't need a smart grid to tell them how.
The only ones that need it are the utilities. It seems they just don't want to pay for it from shareholders dividends.
**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
RE: Smart Grid
But the fact is that residential billing structure does not include demand charges, means that it does not really matter for managing demand.
Time of use charges are always in place of industrial and commercial users.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: Smart Grid
"There is a reason there is no demand charge in residential billing structure in the USA. Residential peak is inconsequential."
Residential load makes up about 37% of total electrical load (US, 2007), so it's hardly inconsequential, and because of the lack of time-of-use incentives it tends to have a worse load factor than industrials.
The main reason there is no demand charge is not because it's not desirable but because there has never been a way to measure it!
BigInch:
You're right that the utilities will benefit from smart metering. However, there are some theoretical benefits for customers:
- less outages (due to better grid management / faster restoration)
- lower costs due to:
- cheaper meter reads
- less power plants due to load shifting
- less grid equipment (being run closer to limits)
Of course, whether the customer will ever see any of the cost savings is a big question!
You're also right that much of the benefits of load shifting can be done without actual smart meters as long as the meters can measure on and off peak usage. Interestingly, residential meters in North America have never had that capability.
RE: Smart Grid
What stops utility companies to install demand reading meters for so many years?
People promoting (or talking about it in vain) residential smart meters etc, are assuming that the present utility system operators are dumb!
Smart and remote monitoring and data logging where it matters and justifiable is already in place. Even my water meter is read by wireless technology by my water supply corporation. But it is not intended to turn off my water supply when needed.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: Smart Grid
Isn't the real answer, better insulation? I'll bet that would save the consumer about 20% and the utility another whole power station, but then again insulation and not building power stations isn't their profit generator now is it.
**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
Some utilities actually have financial incentives for allowing the installation of load management systems in residential homes. LMS transceivers are provided by the utility and are installed in homes to enable the distribution dispatchers to reduce overall load at peak times by actually turning off certain feeds in your home. This is done be sending an encoded signal in the distribution lines from outbound modulating units located within distribution substations. Obviously the user has to volunteer and comply with the changes in their overall power consumption "profile".
This has been around for a while, prior to the term "SmartGrid" being coined, and could be considered a "Smart Grid" technology. However, I believe you're really just hung up on the political ramifications of such terminology. New power system technologies across the board can, if implemented correctly, reduce costs for everyone involved. Whether it is being hyped up and funded correctly by politicians is another subject.
RE: Smart Grid
RE: Smart Grid
**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: Smart Grid
RE: Smart Grid
Some places the disparity between on peak and off peak, coupled with the must run generation, results in the wholesale electric market going negative in the middle of the night. When that happens, you could get paid to charge the batteries at night and then get paid to return some of that back to the system during the day. Sounds like a win-win.
RE: Smart Grid
Or what happens if you forget to plug in your car at night?
Still the plug in car thing sounds bad.
And would it not take additional electronics to handle the conversion from DC to AC, then just being able to handle AC to DC (a diode and capacitor comes to mind).
Fix the problem with turning off your hot water heater, by switching to gas hot water.
RE: Smart Grid
I more or less agree with 86ed. A lot of this stuff has been around in one form or another. One difference now is that before, you had to do an economic analysis to justify it. Now, the government throws money at it so you have to do it to get the "free" money. Another is the terminology. I can't quite figure out why, but the term "smart grid" just grates me the wrong way. Before the last few years, we didn't have a "grid" in the USA. We had transmission and distribution systems. Grids are what they had in Europe.
RE: Smart Grid
On the other hand, we've already got that in the USA air travel system, which is, um, fragile. One plane blows a tire, and every airport within a thousand miles is jammed up for the rest of the day.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Smart Grid
So, new meters have been installed throughout. The reasoning behind this is (said to be) threefold: 1. Customer shall be billed more often so that money flows in streams rather than in chunks and 2. If customer sees that his electricity bill has increased one mont, she/he will do something about it so that next month's bill shall be lower (this is supposed to lessen energy usage and save our planet). And, lastly, 3. The new meters are said to be more correct - less measurement errors.
The AMR (automatic meter reading) is done in several ways. Some use PLC (power line communication), some use internet and some use radio communication. Most of these techniques have their problems. PLC, which I have been involved in, is disturbed by interference from VFDs and. In some areas, the utilities have just as many meter readers as before. Reading meters twelve times/year and having lots of systems floored by VFDs is the reason.
Also, very few people actually care. And fewer still try to do something to reduce energy usage. If they do it, it is because they want to save energy and not because they get a bill every month instead of every third month.
There is also a problem with some of the new meters. They give very high readings in certain cases. I had a very interesting job a couple of months ago where I was asked to find the reason why some customers got their electricity bills almost doubled - in some cases even more - when the new meters were introduced. What I found is astonishing. Certain loads make the meters run between five and six times faster (making the bill five to six times bigger) and that is not because of faulty individual meters, but all meters from a certain manufacturer have the same problem.
This is now being handled centrally (national board of energy) and I am very interested in the outcome. It is about hundreds of thousands of meters only in Sweden. And zillions in Europe and the US.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...
RE: Smart Grid
Very interesting. At my brother-in-law's new apartment, with smart meter, the renter received a bill for 600 Euros for November 2008's consumption. I looked into it and found the outside temperatures were not very low and the air heat was only operated for a few hours the whole month. In short there was no way the meter could have been correct. We had to hire an "approved" electrician to take a reading and send it to them. It took an additional three months of fighting to get Endesa to send their own technician. Fortunately he too agreed that the meter was wrong. The meter was replaced, but none of the 600 Euros was ever refunded, despite repeated requests. Endesa effectively stole what I figured to be around 525 Euros. I wanted to take them to court, but my b-i-l did't want to press it. Now I figure they're both to blame.
Can I ask the nature of the loads giving specific problems?
**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...
RE: Smart Grid
Any idea why the errors occur? Do the dimmers cause enough distortion to get multiple zero-crossings?
RE: Smart Grid
I am afraid that only a few people at the manufacturer's lab know why this happens. And it is a long way before I get to talk to them - if ever...
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...
RE: Smart Grid
New meters are a good idea, and in many places they are all the newer type. This also lets many utilities do AMR. And the same technology is in use for gas and water. However these meters can't shut off service.
The idea of prepaid electric was proposed many years ago, but turned down in several states as crual.
What is crual is the rest of us pay for part of the cost of all these turn off's and turn on's.
RE: Smart Grid
When I first started working in the power industry over 30 years ago, the daily peak was sometime between 3-5 PM. Now it has shifted to between 5-8 PM. That is pure residential contribution.
What I see the smart grid and smart meters being down the road is a license for the power companies to steal from us by measuring demand and saying if you exceed demand limits during peak periods, you pay big time. So what are you going to do, leave your AC off during the day while at work so that you don't exceed demand during the run up to the peak (or even when you get home and contribute to the peak) and come home to a sweltering house?
I see it as a license to steal. I am hoping that it would work out something like what David Beech has presented and they offer a break on power charges to charge electric vehicles in the wee hours of the morning when they need load to keep units on line and operating at peak efficiency, but I doubt that it will be anything that will be to the average consumer's good.
rmw
RE: Smart Grid
rmw
RE: Smart Grid
RE: Smart Grid
Mark Empson
L M Photonics Ltd
RE: Smart Grid
Using pure electromechnaical receivers with tuned circuit relays, synchronous motor timers with contacts set at particular positions in the cycle time of 30 seconds (in one system), about 25 different commands are available.
Transmitters were HF MG sets injecting pulses via contactors and filters at the HV level, say 10KV or even 110kV. Injected power is from tens of KW to hundreds of KW. Today this is done via thyristor systems and software based technology still compatible with the old equipment previously installed. Frequencies used are from 185Hz to over 1000Hz, depending on the network, and neighboring networks. Adjacent networks have to use differing frequencies to avoid interference.
rasevskii
RE: Smart Grid
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...
RE: Smart Grid
Regulators speak smartly "they do not want spend pennies today to build more power plants just to meet the peak demand (caused by industrial and commercial customers)". So, smart meters implementation seems to be a good way to smooth out the demand profile. Okay, 37% of demand is contributed by residential customers, so what? Most residential customers are already in a position to consume their kWh at off-peak hours. There is no more room for them to squeeze. One presentation at a annual utility conference showed their "penny saving" by implementing the smart meter - if the home owners strictly follow the guideline to use electricity smartly, i.e. do your laundry at mid night, cook dinner after 730pm, tweak up your thermostat for cooling and do the opposite way for heating, guess what "the annual electricity saving for a 3bdrm household is about 26 bucks", and the presenter added his comment - most family paid more.
One of the advantage is Smart Meters can allow utility to disconnect without facing the end users, give me a break! Polices are not for good guys!
Electricity demand will grow anyways as more equipment and more automation in industries, more shopping malls and stores around, more home electronics..., say you don't build power plant today, given the fact the regulators know the load forecast, how about 20 years after. Will it be cheaper to build a power plant by then?
Power industry has no revaluation for more than hundred years. Smart grid will not change the status either.
RE: Smart Grid
Interestingly, PGE will not allow any grid-tie system with battery storage. I don't quite know why. The G-T inverters all shut down when isolated ("anti-islanding") anyhow.
It makes zero sense for a homeowner to invest in battery plant for sell-back; but many do want batteries for grid-replacement when Montgomery Burn's Springfield Nuclear Power Plant takes a dive.
BTW: There is one other thing smart meters MIGHT offer a utility, if so designed. It would allow them to stagger the restarting load of recovering from a blackout.
RE: Smart Grid
Picking arbitrary times to charge for higher rates doesn't consumer sense if the utility doesn't see that higher rate on their front end. Telling consumers to pay for the actual rate won't fix any demand issues, since the actual rate varies constantly and peaks costs change day to day.
Besides, I could never quite figure out how the presently touted smart metering scheme would completely fix demand problems. Say the utility charges a higher rate until 7pm. I'd think this would just lead to a lot of residential customers begin to wait to turn their ovens on until about 7:05pm, or timing their hot water heater until just after 7pm, or waiting on laundry until just after 7pm. So the utility change to 8pm and the same thing happens but some people give up waiting. Change again to 9pm and then everyone gives up waiting and instead just pays the higher cost to cook and do laundry at a normal time.
RE: Smart Grid
Sort of like the drug comercials on TV.
RE: Smart Grid
**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
RE: Smart Grid
- ability to read remotely (cheaper)(Who will pay the bill for the meters)
- ability to easily disconnect people who don't pay their bills (Correct but who will maintain the equipment)
- prevents certain types of power theft (If they can stole the power they can always do no matter smart meter or not
- makes time of use rates possible/flexible (We tried in China in 1990s it did not work)
- allows users to see details of their power usage (via web interfaces, etc)(90% of customer don't carefull the details but the total)
Any thing new?
RE: Smart Grid
Could be on top of the other loads
RE: Smart Grid
- less outages (due to better grid management / faster restoration)(I think mixed outages and restoration time) forced outages can not be avoided)
- lower costs due to:
- cheaper meter reads
- less power plants due to load shifting (???????????? Are you sure )
- less grid equipment (being run closer to limits)(Nobody runs grid to teh limits)
All your statements are textbooks ideas.
RE: Smart Grid
Consider the technology that has changed in the last 2-3 decades on distribution systems:
- GIS, OMS systems
- SCADA data at substations (and increasingly in the field)
- multifunction digital relays
- fiber optic communications
- sophisticated billing systems etc.
Everything that's being said about the so-called 'Smart Grid' technologies was said about these but today virtually every utility, even small coops, have most of these technologies in place.
The following trends are happening right now:
- data collection at any point in the system (smart meters, MDM, more SCADA)
- remote control of more and more field devices
- DMS systems and closed-loop control of voltage regulation devices and switching
- more and smaller distributed generation (for both technical and political/social reasons)
Up to now the changes have been incremental, but my prediction (for what it's worth!) is that in the next decade or two we're going to see a huge growth in local energy storage. When this happens the changes in the distribution business will be dramatic because we can finally break the coupling between generation and demand. Even fairly small levels of power storage will lead to microgrids, increased choice in energy supply, better ability to integrate poor generation sources (like wind), etc.
Will it be cheaper for customers? - no.
Will it happen anyway? - yes.
RE: Smart Grid
The new peak rate structure is this.
CODE
7 am to 11 am Mid-Peak 8.0
11 am to 5 pm On-Peak 9.9
5 pm to 9 pm Mid-Peak 8.0
Weekends & Holidays 5.3
I guess only time will tell if residential customers are willing to shift their usage. I might install a timer or 2. Presently, the ¢/kWh portion of my bill is about 1/3 of the total bill, so these price changes really won't have a huge impact. If other TOD demand charges are added as well then I can see taking more care.
RE: Smart Grid
Like Broadband over PowerLines????
RE: Smart Grid
What's the rate between 2100 and 0700, is it 5.3 ?
**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
Business and market absorb the best available technology available that meets business objectives and to that degree it is already happening. As for smart home meters, it not a matter of whether or not they work or whether they any better, but if they are needed. The answer is probably not, otherwise they would have been already embraced by the utility companies. They are in the business to make money too. If the customer wants to cut down his bills, he needs to find his own ways, utility or any other business is not going to do it for them.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: Smart Grid
I'm wathcing to see if other items that are billed go to a time of day structure. The difference between 5.3 cents and 8 cents or even 9.9 cents will change my bill maybe about $10 to $12 a month if I do not time shift any loads.
RE: Smart Grid
I then remebered the outage around seven years ago (thread238-67677: Big blackout. What happened?) and the discussion that followed. I was told that my ideas were unrealistic and not pratical and too expensive. What we see today is much more than I proposed or thought possible.
Anything we can learn from that?
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...
RE: Smart Grid
RE: Smart Grid
**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
So is cold fusion, Real Soon Now. The last domestic BPL installation I know about is Manassas VA, and they just pulled the plug. <http://www
RE: Smart Grid
**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
ht
At least they seem to be offering a savings of sorts.
**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
Residential peaks are inconsequential? What the? That is total nonsense! Our modest sized utility peaks just when you think it would, when people are getting ready to go to school and work, i.e. around 0800. I added a control area load plot that shows that behavior.
Obviously there are many variables involved with peaking conditions such as temperature, etc. The attached plot is indicative of a pure non-heating/non-cooling load behavior. Our temperatures are in the mid-60's right now. Note the ~500 MW swing that occurs. Presently we are peaking at the start of the business day--when it gets warmer we will see peaks around 1700-1800 or so.
Anyway, there are some really incorrect statements made about load behavior on this posting by people who must not be in the business of generating electricity. Hopefully this plot helps people understand the load behavior (which has numerous personalities to say the least).
No question on smart grid--it is political. However, that IS the reality of the world right now.
RE: Smart Grid
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: Smart Grid
I suspect that you do NOT work at a utility since you tend to make blanket categorical statements. As I stated before, load behavior is influenced by many factors. Every utility is different as far as when peaks occur, and those peaks occur at different times throughout the year. Your statement that "residential peak is inconsequential" is simply incorrect. There may be some utilities where that is the case, however, as a general statement it is utterly false. As noted by others, and by myself, residential load behavior is absolutely a component of peak load (for certain service territories) and therefore, the management of peak load. Our total system peaks are driven by A/C and resistive heating loads--those peaks occur not during the middle of the day, but rather the shoulder hours when people start going home.
You need to support your statements with empirical evidence. Do YOU have any data to share?
RE: Smart Grid
https://demanda.ree.es/demanda.html
**********************
Kermit
"Being GREEN isn't easy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
That ends my interest for the discussion. Perhaps, all those utility companies, are dumb that they do not charge or care for demand on residential meters.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: Smart Grid
And it doesn't matter whether or not an individual residence is hitting its peak coincidentally with the grid. We can still cut the grid demand by preventing the water heater in that residence from cycling during that period even if nothing else is on in the house. The customer incentive would not be to reduce their demand charge, it would be to take advantage of a lower load control rate.
Please mark me down as being in favor of smart metering, both as a utility engineer and as a utility customer.
RE: Smart Grid
Another fact that goes against this smart meters for homes is that it is completely against the life style and expectations of the citizens, especially in the USA (and other developed worlds too). Shutting off individual residential power to manage demand is not an option (except in case of emergencies). If we come to that point, we will install new generation and capacity because we can. Asking to turn off a home water heater to manage demand or even save energy, is like asking Americans to give up cars to minimize carbon foot print, money or energy!!!
We all are excited to talk about being green and all, but going back to horse-carts is not an option, even if that is the greenest solution, including the dropping of the horses!
( I clarify Again, demand management has little do with energy savings.)
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: Smart Grid
However, if you have ever purchased wholesale power in a perturbed energy market you will soon realize that demand management saves MONEY. If a utility does not have to either run expensive peakers or buy expensive wholesale power to cover a peak then that utility saves real dollars.
RE: Smart Grid
At some point the residential customers will reason that since they pay more for electricty, they should have priority (sort of line natural gas). And because residential customers are normally also voters, they will over time get there way.
The only way that I see to make cutting off hotwater heaters, or air equipment is to make a transfer of money. This maybe a rate discount, or a peak time energy charge.
RE: Smart Grid
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: Smart Grid
So, they obviously think that residential demand management is valuable (I doubt they're doing it just for fun), and are willing to offer the customer a deal to do so.
RE: Smart Grid
> No need to increase production
> No need to add transmission lines
> No irate corporate customers; while residential customers are voters, corporate customers are donors. Guess which one speak louder, particularly since the Supreme Court has ruled that a company has unlimited contributions.
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Smart Grid
Even that has to qualify as an "emergency" measure, to allow to run standby generations spewing CO2 and NOXs.
Turning off power automatically to any one, even industrial customers, is not an option in the USA. We manage demand for maximizing use of the existing installations for economic reasons and not because we are poor and have no other alternative. Any "smarts" required for such demand management is already in use without calling them smarts.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: Smart Grid
I also don't understand how, or why so many people actually think the electric cars will be used to power the grid during mid days. It will take a two way inverter, and a communications medium, as well as a payback rate that everyone involved (utility, and car owner) thinks is fair.
RE: Smart Grid
I see it like, everybody gets home, turns up the HVAC, flick the lights on, and plugs in their car batteries... making the residential peak that much worse.
**********************
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco
"Being GREEN isn't easy" ..Kermit the
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
A moment latter the smart meter shuts off your HVAC, and the charger for your car. And maybe thell expand it to also turn off your lights, and TV.
That will feel good the sit is a nice hot house, in the dark, with no TV. How fast can you call yor congressman?
Oh, thats right, since your phone will be tied to your computer it won't work either.
That progress.
RE: Smart Grid
RE: Smart Grid
**********************
"Being GREEN isn't easy" ..Kermit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
We and those before us, the lesser mortals, could not do it with just the battery/inverters/chargers on the garage floor, but now that smart people have invented the smart battery holder called the electric car, it will work now!! Stay tuned.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: Smart Grid
Wind hasen't become anywhere near as promised, so why should any of us believe that smart grid will also.
Everytime I hear the tv ad about the wind on the plains, I wonder why those people by the sea are awake that late at night (joke is the wind on the plains blows mainly at night).
RE: Smart Grid
RE: Smart Grid
Yes, I am aware of that. Interruptible rates exist even where there is no demand management crisis. It just a economic business structure on the line of you get what you pay for. Interruptible rate does not mean, interrupting at will or on daily or even monthly basis. But just that the load is not given a top priority like say a hospital would be given or no special measures for a back up feeders or automatic transfers are built by the utility. In a true sense all utility services are interruptible, as there is never a guarantee of no loss of power. Routine peak demand management does not constitute an emergency.
Even those participating in demand response programs are given at least 30 minutes of advance notice with a "request" to take action. We, as a developed nation, are fully capable of meeting the demands of "normal" business and industries. It is not the intent or in the interest of a developed country not to build capacities to serve what is needed. Demand management is only intended to use maximum extent of the installed capacity, not to stifle growth or restrict daily lives.
The difference between engineers, businessmen, accountants and politicians is very evident in this thread. Engineers want to use everything they "can" make, while market and society only accepts or adopts what is needed or useful.
Many "capabilities" of smart meters, such as automatic sensing and turning off power, are not really required nor have been embraced by the market for exactly the same reason.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: Smart Grid
I've always wondered re: resi HVAC loadshedding. I'd think it would be a far easier sell if it was not in hour plus chunks, but say 15 min/hour man for a given house.
RE: Smart Grid
The SmartGrid, like most progress, is a good thing.
RE: Smart Grid
**********************
"Being GREEN isn't easy" ..Kermit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
Market pricing is nice, but with a binning process in the meters, and a one way radio siginal, we can do that now without the high speed communications.
Besides studies have shown that most residential customers won't change there habits due to small rate changes.
To make large changes you probally need to attach an advanced rate to industrials.
When you propose forcing people to use less, under any means, then it's nothing but big goverment.
RE: Smart Grid
1) it will give the utilities and eventually the government full access to information about what you are doing and when.
2) it will give the utilities and eventually the government a reason to charge and tax more for the same service we already recieve.
3) it will give the utilities and government the ability to turn off smart appliances.
4) it will give the government the opportunity to promote a whole new line of appliances as "green"; nothing better than environmental consumerism.
5) it has already given the utilities and government permission to NOT construct needed facilities, instead substituting imagined resources.
5) it is a new and catchy name for power rationing, time of day billing and curtailment, that have existed since the dawning of electricity.
6) it is something better understood by journalism and sociology students than engineering students and therein lies the popularity :)
(and it has nothing to do with remote meter reading which is old school and already deployed by many utilities)
RE: Smart Grid
You might have hit the big something there with your power rationing theory. If its true that 100 nuclear plants must be built over the next 20 yrs to keep up with demand, and 0 of 10 have not begun permitting already this year, and they will cost round about 1 trillion $ to build, brown/black outs may become a lot more common in the future then what we've been used to. That explains all the flash and benign words being used too.
**********************
"Being GREEN isn't easy" ..Kermit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
It is not very nice to take candy away from kids!
Plus what is wrong with utility company or govt. telling us when to take a hot shower or do our laundry? I think more they decide for us, the better. As that frees up our minds and we can concentrate on more important things and be more productive!
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: Smart Grid
Thanks to "smart grid"
RE: Smart Grid
yes I think I spelled it wrong too.
RE: Smart Grid
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Smart Grid
RE: Smart Grid
**********************
"Being GREEN isn't easy" ..Kermit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
OK, but just think about some of the other "stuff" that's been imposed on us and ask yourself if you believe an election would change anything.
RE: Smart Grid
At least the grid will be smart.
**********************
"Being GREEN isn't easy" ..Kermit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Smart Grid
I ponder this more and have to ask exactly why a utility would not want the ability to selectively direct a limited amount of power to the highest bidders?
RE: Smart Grid
On the non-regulated side, there is a profit motive. But diverting power from the regulated customers to the non-regulated side is foolish in todays political world.
If the smart grid is actually controlled by the goverment, then can we really call it smart?
RE: Smart Grid
RE: Smart Grid
This looks more like providing power to the most politically connected, and cutting power to you low lifes.
RE: Smart Grid
RE: Smart Grid
Let's speculate that North Korea would randomly torpedo a South Korean corvette. Naw!
Let me change from that absurd speculation to.... How about.... The stock market dropping about a thousand points then returning in an hour!
Ah.. I'm being moronic!
I'll try to be more realistic. How about.. as they are setting the tables for a 'Job Well Done, and a Safety Awards, combined banquet" for finishing a technically challenging deep ocean oil well, the well blows out, incinerates, and sinks the pending banquet and a 2 billion dollar ship! Lets cap it off by having a multi-million dollar five story blowout preventer fail to-do-anything!!
Ah no, this is just too wild. I give up..
I guess my point is that if stuff like this can happen, then having the power companies and politicians running their everyday Divide and Conquer schemes against us, using 'political correctness' and 'environmental concern' to control our energy and wallets - doesn't really surprise me. You only have to look at how they banned incandescent bulbs to replace them with compact fluorescents.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Smart Grid
RE: Smart Grid
http:
"I am sure it can be done. I've seen it on the internet." BigInch's favorite client.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com
RE: Smart Grid
Experience provides the necessary visual acuity.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Smart Grid
"I am sure it can be done. I've seen it on the internet." BigInch's favorite client.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com
RE: Smart Grid
I posted my findings about energy meters (see post 1 May 10 0:28) more than four months ago and I made my measurements more than six months ago. The utility that I did the work for sent my report to the national board of energy and also to the accredited body that has approved the meters for a comment.
I still haven't got that comment from any of the organizations and am contemplating to make the report public. I can see some legal issues, but the work is mine and I think that the copyright should be mine. I haven't signed any special agreements about non-disclosure. Anyone having insights in how I could proceed? Or should I not?
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...
RE: Smart Grid
Here in The Colonies, that's a "work for hire". ... and not yours to release or distribute.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Smart Grid
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...
RE: Smart Grid
"I am sure it can be done. I've seen it on the internet." BigInch's favorite client.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com
RE: Smart Grid
While I am not a lawyer, and don't know anything in particular about Swedish law, from a common sense perspective, there should be nothing keeping you from redoing the work on your own time, and writing up the results again. I would encourage you to do the measurements, analysis, and write-up somewhat differently this time -- I'm sure that with the months you've been thinking about this, you have thought about ways to improve all three. They may own your original report, but not your knowledge.
My only reservation on this is that you think that you hae uncovered something so inflammatory that the powers that be would employ unfair means to keep the information suppressed.
Do you know any investigative journalists (on-line or print) that would be interested in a hot sotry from a "whistleblower"?
Curt
RE: Smart Grid
"I am sure it can be done. I've seen it on the internet." BigInch's favorite client.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com
RE: Smart Grid
I figured out what you can do Gunnar.
Instead of releasing The Test Results, write a white paper on how you do the testing.
Make it cook book style so anybody with the interest can get the test set up and do it. There are people who want to know, but don't know where to start. There are media organizations who would like to know, but don't know where to start. With a white paper non-technicals can approach technicals and ask them to, "run this test".
You'll then have lots of people showing up with valid results and lots of questions. If the media doesn't do it themselves someone will get them involved. If the media has a rational white paper to reference as the test procedure, they won't fear that the provider is just a wacko with an axe to grind.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com