Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
(OP)
I purchased a meat grinder and had the option to set the voltage at either 208V 3 phase or 220V 3 phase, we chose 208V.
The problem is we have recently moved to a new location and now have 220V 3 phase service. What can we do to fix this? Is there a way to reset the voltage in the grinder? Or can we use a transformer?
Thank you!
The problem is we have recently moved to a new location and now have 220V 3 phase service. What can we do to fix this? Is there a way to reset the voltage in the grinder? Or can we use a transformer?
Thank you!





RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Muthu
www.edison.co.in
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
If it exceeds the nameplate current should I be looking at a transformer?
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Good luck.
Muthu
www.edison.co.in
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Muthu
www.edison.co.in
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
There's 120/240 single phase, 208, 240, 480, 600 3 phase all at 60 hz in North America.
In EU, 230 single phase and 400 3 phase on 50 hz and probably others.
So what is it?
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
From your 208 Volt statement I will assume that you are in North America. Your possible voltage options would be:
1> In Canada, A legacy delta system at 220 V that is 60 or 75 or more years old. Not likely.
2> A legacy 230 Volt delta system (Open or full delta) that is about 50 years old. Still not likely in Canada. I understand that delta was more used in the US but still not common anymore.
3> Most likely by far, you have another 120/208 volt system and the person reporting the voltage doesn't know the difference between 208V, 220V and 240V. This is more common than many people realize.
Check your system voltage first hand. If you do need to adjust the voltage, report the actual nominal voltage and the motor spec's and we can supply economical suggestions.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
The nameplate on the machine is 208V 3 phase, 20/24.5A, 60Hz, 5/6Kw.
How can I find out the voltage at the plant?
Stefan
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Muthu
www.edison.co.in
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
What your OEM probably did was select or set your motor overload relays for the 208V current values and if you run it at 230V, they will allow too much current to flow to your motor in case of an overload, risking damage. It may be that all you need do is fix that issue.
"If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my axe." -- Abraham Lincoln
For the best use of Eng-Tips, please click here -> FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
jraef: I think you are correct, because they did not change the motor, they stated that they were going to "set" the electric system to the voltage we requested. There is a sticker from the dealer inside on one of the electrical boxes. Could I get my electrician to change these relays? Or do they just need to be switched?
Thank you!!
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
"If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my axe." -- Abraham Lincoln
For the best use of Eng-Tips, please click here -> FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
If you do have 220 Volts three phase I'd like to hear about it. It will be so rare that I would go out of my way to see it the next time I go through Vancouver.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Thank you for your info!
It's actually port moody if that makes a difference, ahahha
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
The panels will be rated and tagged that it is rate for 240VAC, likely due to a few reasons, one being a very similar panel design for 120V/240V single phase services which means the same UL/CSA listings for both version.
So, until you measure the service with a meter don't believe the voltage it "might" be.
If the voltage actually is 240VAC, then you likely have to change the control power transformer from a 208V to 240V primary as well as reset the motor overload relay to the new motor FLA rating, 20A instead of 24.5A.
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
the previous tenant in the building just plugged everything in without regard for voltage....obviously this is a mistake.
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Muthu
www.edison.co.in
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
I thought I have seen on this site and elsewhere that it was not advisable to run a 208V motor on a 240V system since 240V is outside the 10% tolerence. Even on a 230V system a 208V motor is right at 10% and any increase in the system voltage could lead to issues. Is this a case only when we are dealing with a 208V rated motor and not one rated 208-230V as mentioned in this post?
I guess the fact that is has this 208-230V rating, it can handle anywhere in this range as well as a 240V system as others have mentioned?
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
It was common practice for many years to run 230V rated motors on 20 Volts. In more recent years, the design and construction of motors has become tighter and so dual rated (208:230V) and 200Volt rated motors have come on the market.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
"If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my axe." -- Abraham Lincoln
For the best use of Eng-Tips, please click here -> FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
An anecdote;
Five or six yeas ago, I was living in an apartment building served by 120:208 Volts. The building manager was a retired industrial electrician. His office was on the second floor and just outside his office window was the three phase transformer bank.
I mentioned something about 208 Volts one day and he contradicted me. Like millions or other people living in apartment buildings, he had always assumed that the residential voltage was 120:240 Volts. He was a little embarrassed when I checked with a meter and showed him 208 Volts.
He was a competent electrician, but he had followed the common assumption on residential voltages.
To check the voltage at the receptacles, you have to check between two receptacles on different phases.
Does Port Moody have its own electric utility or are you on BC Hydro and Power?
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
So 240 Volts is possible.
Have you measured the voltage with a meter?
You should be aware that if it is 240 Volts three phase the odds are overwhelming that it will be a four wire delta with a "Wild leg".
If so, your voltages to ground from the three phases will be, 120V, 120V, and 208V.
You should be aware of this. Normally only three phase loads are connected to the wild leg. Often every third breaker will be missing or not used in the part of the panel feeding the 120V loads.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Apparently the building WAS 208V 3 phase but a cabinet maker moved in and requested 240V from the pole. All the old switches say 208V.
Mystery solved. Now we need a transformer for a couple machines. We need one for a 6.5A 3ph 208V machine. 2.5kva?
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
I believe this is called "split-phase" supply. Wikipedia says this is used "in the U.S. and parts of Canada and Latin America". But I guess not in Vancouver.
Curt Wilson
Delta Tau Data Systems
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
What does that mean ?
Muthu
www.edison.co.in
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
I watched the electrician test it at the panel. There were three leads going into the panel, and he tested between the two solid colored ones, and between the solid color and the striped cable. All were 240V
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
I know I need a transformer but can someone show me one online that I could use?
The electrician told me to go get one over 2500 VA.
Basically I need to go from the 240V to 208V for 6.5 amps current.
THANKS EVERYBODY FOR ALL YOUR HELP!!!
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Adding a transformer is another source of loss and another potential source of failure.
Muthu
www.edison.co.in
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Any suggestions for this situation?
Thanks again edison123 you, and everybody else on these forums have been great helps...and have sparked my interest in this topic.
Thank you so much.
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
With an auto transformer connection the magic of multiplication works for you.
The ratio of a 240:36V transformer is 6.667:1, call it 7:1.
The 36 Volt winding must carry the full 6.5 amps plus 1/7th to excite the 240 Volt winding.
Round it off to 7.5 amps.
7.5 Amps times 36 Volts equals 270 Volt Amps. Nearest size is 500 Volt Amps.
You need two 500 KVA, 240:36 Volt transformers that are buck/boost rated.
240V + 36V = 276V
276V /240V = 1.15
240V / 1.15 = 208.7 Volts
You will use an open delta auto transformer connection.
You may connect the transformers between the motor contactor and the motor overload devices. The motor will be protected and the transformer will only be energized when the motor is being used.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Is there any way we can transform 240V to 220V? for 6.5Amps draw?
Thank you for your help BIll.
If you are ever in BC you should stop by
www.moccia.ca
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Buck boost rated 240:24 volt in open delta auto transformer configuration will drop 240 Volts to 218 Volts. Two transformers, 500VA each.
We used to service a plant that was part 480 Volts and part 600 volts.
The main service had a pair of auto transformers to drop the 600V to 480V. There was always machinery being moved, often from the 600V area to the 480V area or vice versa. We used a pair of small dry type transformers at each motor that needed a voltage adjustment.
I have done this before and it works well. It saves a lot on transformer costs.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Do you have a schematic showing how these transformers would be connected?
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
ht
"If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my axe." -- Abraham Lincoln
For the best use of Eng-Tips, please click here -> FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
It doesn't matter if there is no neutral, but look at the transformers. If the secondaries appear to be connected in series it's delta.
That's great, jraef. I blew the size calculation. You can go down to 150 VA x 2. That's a lot cheaper than the 2500 Va your electrician wanted to install.
Back to wye or delta. With a three transformer bank, wye will have one secondary terminal of each transformer connected together and a phase conductor from the other terminal of each transformer. Delta secondaries will be connected in a series ring with a phase conductor taken from each jumper from one transformer to the next. In some cases, two phase conductors may be physically connected to opposite terminals of the same transformer, but even so there will be one phase conductor from each jumper.
With wye, the common terminal is the neutral or the grounded conductor.
With a delta bank, the center terminal of a 120:240V transformer may be used to ground the system.
But, if there is no neutral, it doesn't matter.
Probably delta. A 240 Volt wye requires 139 Volt transformers. They are not common.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
If they used 3 x 120V:240V transformers they they might have fed a 120V panel from the same service transformers so look for a lighting panel that is fed from the same service. If so, the neutral is the middle point of one of the delta connected transformers. It was mentioned above. If you measured each phase to ground you would read 120V, 120V and 208V for this type of connection.
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Unless it is a very old piece of equipment (1960s or before), this seems suspect. And even then, the 220 rating was intended for both 208 and 240 V services. 220 does not match any modern standard nominal utilization or service voltage. ANSI C84 utilization voltages are 200 or 230, corresponding to service voltages of 208 and 240. Applying a little too much voltage is generally better than too little, since motors will draw less current and run cooler and more efficiently at higher voltage. I would try it without the buck transformer.
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
1> It's over 50 years old.
2> It is an older (pre-harmonization) IEC motor for 50 Hz.
3> It was made in China.
Check to see if it is 50 Hz.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
It sounds as if a frequency difference might be part of the problem with the machine vibrating/not operating properly. I cannot think of any reason it would tend to vibrate when exposed to higher than normal voltage.
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
I recently had a case where a 4.5 KW motor whose vibration would increase with the voltage (via an stepless auto). I located the problem to the shaft loose in the rotor core to the tune of 0.15 mm. With a new shaft with proper fit, the vibrations went away.
It's time you brought in a good motor repair shop.
Muthu
www.edison.co.in
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Again I say he needs a machine (including the proper gearing) suitable for NA voltage and frequency. A VFD is a possible solution, but why should he need to pay extra to make a new piece of equipment work?
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
stevenal: I agree with you that the machine should be suitable for NA freq and V, but it is at 60hz and they don't seem to understand. they say that 208V will work, but 220 is ideal. there is a hell of a language barrier even though they are only in irvine, ca. please see the attached drawings, and accept my thanks.
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
There are five motors. All are said to be 200 V.
Does that compute? Do the motor nameplates say the same thing?
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Muthu
www.edison.co.in
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
What's a vfd?
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Re harmonics. That is usually not a problem with VFDs. But you will certainly not need them.
The adjustment that the supplier did was an adjustment to grid voltage. It can be done again if you have another grid voltage now.
I think that it is about time to close this chatbox. Even if we are nice guys that like to help, we get tired when threads go on and on without getting anywhere.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
thank you for all your help and sorry for the thread going on and on.
I have one electrician hooking everything up, as well as a guy at the transformer company that is an electrical engineer.
I don't know who else to hire.
Stefan
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
I am sure that they will give you what you need at a fair price.
Beaver was one of a couple of motor shops in Vancouver that I had good luck with, years ago.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor
Muthu
www.edison.co.in
RE: Meat Grinder with 208V 3 Phase motor