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PE Waive for PHD

PE Waive for PHD

(OP)
Hi,
I have 4 years of Experience as of now and passed EIT in California.
I did my PHD from Texas. How can i waive my PE in Texas.
 

RE: PE Waive for PHD

7
You cannot waive a PE examination based on education.  Similarly a PE with many years of experience cannot waive a PhD admission exam.

Both exams have thier place since having a PE no more makes an engineer ready for the pursuit of advanced degree than does a PhD make up for years of practical experience.

I speak from experience on boths sides and have a SE to boot.

Regards,
Qshake
pipe
Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.
 

RE: PE Waive for PHD

Well said

RE: PE Waive for PHD

If your doing "Civil/Environmental" work in Texas - odds are you'll work under an industry exemption in which case a PE is irrelevant. Particularly at the PhD level and in this economy - there is no public sector work. Industry doesn't care about the P.E.

Go work for a big company, stay away from consulting - and don't waste your time.

my $0.02

RE: PE Waive for PHD

I tend to disagree with Roy -  my PE license(s) have been a tremendous boon to my professional career.  Just having the PE has carried a lot of weight even when I wasn't specifically licensed in a particular state.  Go for it...  Rather inexpensive and if you don't need it - just put it in the drawer UNTIL the day you do!!

RE: PE Waive for PHD

I do agree that you should go for your PE.  I think all engineers should get their PE.  I'm still on the road on getting mine.  I work in industry, may never use it, but once I get the licensens it will sure look good on my resume.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: PE Waive for PHD

It is my undertanding that there is a proposal by the US PE test and qualifying orgaization to REQUIRE a masters degree in engineering prior to applying for a PE, scheduled to be required in 2020.

RE: PE Waive for PHD

"...stay away from consulting... "

That's one of the few things a PhD is really good for.  For design/production work, a PE is more valuable to most companies, at least in my experience.  

One of my sons is just graduating in Chem E, he did not sit for the EIT over my objections.  All the academics recommended against it, said it was "unnecessary and does not make you a better engineer".  Naturally their recommendations were to stay in school for an masters and/or PhD.  I am fit to be tied.  

RE: PE Waive for PHD

Maybe if more engineering were taught at the batchelor level, a masters wouldn't be required.  Just a thought.

- Steve

RE: PE Waive for PHD

Sompting, how dare you.  All that 'history of Rock & Roll' and 'Basket Weaving' are essential for rounding out students here in the land of the free.

We don't want any of that British starting to specialize at 16 (or maybe even 14) nonsense.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: PE Waive for PHD

Well said, Qshake.  Having a PhD is no qualification for being a PE.  I've known many clueless PhD's and many clueless PE's.  In my opinion, having a PhD usually means knowing a lot about one subject.  For some engineers, having a PE means they think they know everything about everything.

All engineering professors should have a P.E. license.  Having a PhD is good for a professor but, to me, a professor with a PE license has demonstrated a more well rounded engineering background which should be more beneficial to students.  When I was in college, the best professors all had real-world industry experience and professional licenses.

If a PhD wants to be a PE, let him or her meet the same requirements as the rest of us did.  No free passes for PhD's.

www.PeirceEngineering.com

RE: PE Waive for PHD

In Washington, to take the PE, you have to have eight years experience.  A BS degree from a four year university counts for four years of that, a Masters an additional year, and a PhD, one more, for a total of 6 of the 8.  So, you still have to work under the supervision of a licensed PE in your field two more years before you could be considered eligible to take just the PE exam, let alone the structural, which takes an additional two years of experience.  

It's a long road to hoe - not one just to be swept away.      

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: PE Waive for PHD

@Roy:  Huh?  If ever there was a field most likely to require licensure, civil is it.

Regarding engineering education (a whole nother discussion, really)...I don't know that the "good old days" were ever all that good either.  My first undergrad program, before I got there, used to be a five-year program that got condensed down to four.  What is a five-year undergraduate program but a 4-year BS plus one-year MS without actually having an MS to show for it?

Perhaps the nature of the non-engineering classes needs to be tweaked, but there is a lot to be said for having classes in history, political science, economics, psychology/sociology/anthropology/other social science, writing, public speaking.  If I think back to what I was forced to take against my will, the only one I have seen zero benefit from over the years was literature.  Of the rest, most comes up a bit here and there one way or the other in professional context, and the rest makes me a better-functioning and better-prepared human being in my society.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: PE Waive for PHD

At the PhD level - in Texas - there are more opportunities within exempt industries (see: oil and gas, R&D) than anywhere else. That's what i've seen anyway.

RE: PE Waive for PHD

Two comments:

1) what is your motivation for seeking exemption from an industry standard?  The very reason for professional licensure, protecting life and property, is not consistent with short cuts.

2) If you really want to bypass the PE, become licensed in Canada where there exists no PE or FE test, and then become licensed by comity with the State of Texas. That does not work in most States, but the Association of professional Engineers and Geoscientists of Alberta claims this is possible for the State of Texas.  

RE: PE Waive for PHD

i agree there's no national PE exam, but i think each province has it's own.  in my experience Canada (ie Ontario) is very parochial about their university standards (Canadian good, a very limited selection of the rest-of-the-world ok, everybody else no good).  In lieu of doing Canadian exams (did my uni in Oz) i got grandfathered by a board who didn't understand the technical work i was doing.  Now I have a licence and my company (ie me) needs a licence (CofA) to offer my services.

RE: PE Waive for PHD

Is the PE wave the one with the middle finger extended? I saw that a couple times yesterday.

RE: PE Waive for PHD

Yes, the third leg comes in handy for that too pipe  

peace
Fe

RE: PE Waive for PHD

I've noticed that the definition of "engineering" differs from state to state... I have a PhD in ME (with a specialty in Mech of Materials) and am sitting for the Mech Eng PE license this October.

My issue is that the tangent field I'm jumping into is carbon footprint/energy analysis.  The people who are currently consulting in this area (chem science and environmental types) don't appear to be required to get a PE to practice this.  It does bother/concern me a little that non-ME's are barging into the "energy" world through this backdoor.

Also, the global nature of engineering means that companies can go outside the US for their analysis/design work.  While we here have to trudge through the paperwork of state-by-state comity.  Anyone seen Elance?  No PE required there. I'm just wondering what the real value of a PE is in our global economy. It seems to mostly slow us down here.  

RE: PE Waive for PHD

I think that we should have a PHD wave for a PE, that way neither accomplishment will mean anything!

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: PE Waive for PHD

2
A PhD and a PE are not the same thing. I don't have to remind everyone that a PhD is a Doctor of Philosophy. Obtaining a PhD means that the individual is pursuing a career as a researcher or as a professor not as a practicing engineer.

A PE is Professional Engineer licensed by the State in which he practices. This license represents that the individual meets the minimum requirements set by the state and has the authority to sign and seal or "stamp" engineering  documents (reports, drawings, and calculations) for a study, estimate, design or analysis, thus taking legal responsibility for it.

A PhD will look at the minute differences in analysis to determine patterns, while a PE will utilize a factor of safety to account for those minute differences. A PhD and a PE are not the same, and should not be interchangeable.

Joe Alvin Haun, PE, MSE
Engineering Business Publications
http://www.engineeringbusinesspubs.com

RE: PE Waive for PHD

Well said haun6!

The essential difference between PE and anything else is responsibility.  When the s#*t hits the fan legally, a PE has nowhere to hide whereas everyone else gets to claim or feign innocence, ignorance, non-involvement, etc.  Having the inherent responsibility that PE registration imposes changes all of a PE's perspectives regarding all engineering related work and issues.

Don't get me started on real examples of the discrepancies between most professors (even the very best educators) and practical realities!!!!!!  Academics can be very valuable members of a team to get something accomplished or developed, but without the practical involvement of practicing PE's silly, if not outright bad, things are likely to be the result.

I have nothing but great respect and gratitude for all but a couple of my professors, but only a very few of them could be trusted to touch a wrench or screwdriver without getting themselves hurt.

Valuable advice from a professor many years ago:  First, design for graceful failure.  Everything we build will eventually fail, so we must strive to avoid injuries or secondary damage when that failure occurs.  Only then can practicality and economics be properly considered.

RE: PE Waive for PHD

haun6 hit the nail on the head, in some countries a PHD actually makes you less attractive to industryas that extra knowledge can tie you down.

I also think that somptinguy makes a very good point. Why do you need to do a second degree in the US to achieve a level that is achieved by a single 4 year degree elsewhere in the world (UK, Australia e.t.c.). Interesting that the US is also the only one out of the three countries with a fully privatised university system - anyone see the pattern!

RE: PE Waive for PHD

A PhD had value prior to 1990, prior to the internet and prior to mass marketed software. The PC revolution that allows one expert to program a generalized solution in a software package that can be mass marketed to all industries basically replaced the niche that many industrially employed PhD's had filled. Now, at best , a PhD can  teach at college and perhaps find a research job.

What surprised me circa 1992 was the direct explicit notice by the gov't that there is expected to be a ( 90% ) decline in positions for PhD's in physics, and directly discouraged any sturdent to pursue that track.  

RE: PE Waive for PHD

No PhD's in physics, and cutbacks at NASA. Could this be a notice from the gov't that they don't like you pretending to be smarter then they are?

RE: PE Waive for PHD

"A PhD had value prior to 1990, prior to the internet and prior to mass marketed software. The PC revolution that allows one expert to program a generalized solution in a software package that can be mass marketed to all industries basically replaced the niche that many industrially employed PhD's had filled. Now, at best , a PhD can  teach at college and perhaps find a research job."

Wow. Seems the garbage coming out of those "software packages" will be the future garbage designs.
We all know that an understanding of the software is the fundamental.
Not to mention that research in industry does not limit itself to just making code...

peace
Fe

RE: PE Waive for PHD

"No PhD's in physics, and cutbacks at NASA. Could this be a notice from the gov't that they don't like you pretending to be smarter then they are? "

Why do we have a biased against persons with a doctorate? Although I sense something I will not get into....

peace
Fe

RE: PE Waive for PHD

Not to mention the many BS and MS folks who were and are involved in research.

Geesh - those seems like a pretty ignorant statements Davefitz and cranky108.

 

Regards,
Qshake
pipe
Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.
 

RE: PE Waive for PHD

Qshake;
If you say so.

I have had the experience of working with a large eng company from 1978 thru 1998, and directly witnessed the continuous  "downsizing" of the research staff  and   the "subject experts" ( nearly all Phd's) and their direct replacement with less educated engineers using  ( now ubiquitous) PC based  computer programs and ( also ubiquitous) internet searches to satisfy management as to the likely root cause of a failure of equipment and likely solution .

There is no doubt that the better educated PhD has a deeper understanding of the material, and in many cases that deeper understanding of the technical matter can either lead to a better solution or avoid  "unintended consequences" of those solutions  adopted by less knowlegeable persons. But there is also no doubt that industry has moved on , in the direction of lower overhead and "higher productivity" afforded by now universally available software .

And of course  it is true that a person running a computer program for which they did not develope, and who does not know the limitations of the models that the program was based on, is playing with fire and would eventually incorporate incorrect results in the technical solution to a problem. But I submit the same is true for the most credentialled PhD "subject matter expert" who also does not have access to the program's source code ( and who likely is not also experienced in the incorporated numerical methods ) to absolutely rule out equivalent failures. A prime example is the ( now dated) case of the series of US nuclear plants built in the late 1970's designed using an nuclear-industrry accepted ( mainframe baesd) computer program that was to determine piping loads due to earthquake events. A lone NRC inspector found a glitch in the program, which led to re-examination  of dozens of designs and subsequent revsion of supports in dozens of plants.

So, my hat truly is off to those that can hack the extra 3 yrs at grad school plus find a job ( outside of home depot ) that uses your education.  But the gravy train of industrial jobs  has left the station 20 yrs ago.  

RE: PE Waive for PHD

FYI, the computer program bug that caused the NRC to shutdown ( and revise) 5 reactors in 1979 was the Stone & Webster's program titled "Shock II", and a review of other reactors  beyond those 5.

RE: PE Waive for PHD

Well stated, davefitz!

Anyone that bothers to read the licensing "legaleze drivel" attached to all of the "magical" software packages will find disclaimers for liability for anything and everything.  Any PE who signs responsibility to work only on the basis of such software is a near perfect example of a fool.  A PE is by definition presumed to be both competent and responsible.

Experience and advanced education are both very important, indeed essential, but with the ever mounting financial pressures for the short-sighted running of businesses, anything that shaves short-term costs will prevail regardless of long-term costs or tragedies.  Does anyone really believe that the software is not being developed with similar short-term financial pressures?

Valuable advice from a professor many years ago:  First, design for graceful failure.  Everything we build will eventually fail, so we must strive to avoid injuries or secondary damage when that failure occurs.  Only then can practicality and economics be properly considered.

RE: PE Waive for PHD

Get your facts right....a PHD is on average 6 years more school then a B.Sc. ...not 3.
Dare I say to all of you that think in whispers and type aloud to write your own "code". (we will see how long it takes you to come begging for help from those you insult)

peace
Fe

RE: PE Waive for PHD

fex32:
I can only speak for the college experience I had at RPI- the average time at that college to attain a  Phd in engineering was 3 yrs past a batchelors circa 1975. Likewise, it was 4 yrs for a BS . My understanding is that many schools now allow a longer time to matricualte, may e due to the poorer quality education now recieved in high school, but more likely due to the schools grab at another years worth of tuition.

6 yrs of add'l study at a tuition + fees of $50k per year vs working as a degreed engineer at $75K per year would be a tough economic bargain .

RE: PE Waive for PHD

Yea, I agree mostly with Kenat and dave.
I was just saying 6 years because you need a 2 year masters first then 3-4 yeas for the PhD. So 5 to 6 years right?
That's what we do in Canada and US.  

peace
Fe

RE: PE Waive for PHD

It really should be noted that you cannot get a PhD without a masters so you must add that time in.  A PhD program requires at a minimum (what I've seen) 72 hours.  Naturally that is dependent on many factors.  But the bulk of those 72 hours come from the 30 or so you did with your master's degree.  So the two are very much connected.

Regards,
Qshake
pipe
Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.
 

RE: PE Waive for PHD

As I recall, a pHd is 90 credit hours past a BS, including credits for the thesis. If you only want a MS, that is typically 30 credit hours past a BS.

Minimum full time credit hours is 12 hrs/semester, max is rarely over 20 credit hours per semester ( 2 semesters per annum excluding summer)

The 90 hrs in 3 yrs can be accomplished assuming one is not using a teaching apprenticeship  to pay for tuition, as a teaching load of 2 classes per semester makes it difficult to carry 15 credit hrs .

RE: PE Waive for PHD

Guess it depends where you are. Seems like some are implying a thesis can be written in 4 months. LOL.
Like I said, where I am it is more, I am in the process of mine, and can assure you 4 months is just the flesh.
 

peace
Fe

RE: PE Waive for PHD

PhD is 90 credits (48 course, 42 research)
MS is 30 credits (21 course, 9 research)

It completely depends on where you do your MS if your credits can transfer.  If I went for the PhD it would have taken me an additional 2.5 years on top of the 1.5 for the MS.  6 years for PhD is not unheard of but it's not typical from my experience.

RE: PE Waive for PHD

You can only transfer credits for a PhD if your masters work did not lend you a masters...ie. where I come from you can enter a masters program and before finishing it you can apply to transfer to the PhD program (without graduating the masters). You cannot by any means use you masters work as credit to a PhD in any other way. This would be seen as academic misconduct and CHEATING.
Would be nice if I could not have to take any courses in PhD or teach and tutor eh...rednose  

peace
Fe

RE: PE Waive for PHD

FeX32

You'll find that the the situation varies quite a lot from field to field and country to country.  What you state is true in some cases, but by no means true in all.

RE: PE Waive for PHD

Only 30 credits for a Masters degree?  Where was that?  I needed 45 credits at Drexel.

www.PeirceEngineering.com

RE: PE Waive for PHD

It's typically 30 credits for semester programs and 45 credits for quarter programs.

xnuke
"Live and act within the limit of your knowledge and keep expanding it to the limit of your life." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged.
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: PE Waive for PHD

Yes, but remember that in a quarter program you still cover the material that is in the text book.  You just have less time to cover it all.

www.PeirceEngineering.com

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