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Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

(OP)
Let be start by stating that my question is not racial or culturally biased in any way.  

Simply stated, is it professionally ethical to purchase design calculations and analysis at grossly discounted rates from overseas (or anywhere), and apply your professional seal with no direct supervision of the design personnel?

This morning I received the 4th email this month offering such services.  I am aware that many of these engineers are educated in the US and often have post graduate degrees.  I have worked with large design firms that literally work around the clock via a network of worldwide offices and staff.  But, their professional network provides licensed professional engineers providing on site supervision and guidance.  I have attended seminars on the growing trend, outlining the benefits and obstacles.  But, this is not the model that concerns me.  I am concerned with companies providing the design calculations, but without the ability to seal their own product.  

I know that some state license boards specifically prohibit the sealing of designs not provided under direct supervision.  Our professional liability insurance would be unaffordable.  I also cannot imagine sitting in a witness seat and explaining that we sealed a critical portion of a structure that was designed without direct supervision or even direct communication.  All in the interest of discounted prices and accelerated schedules.

I know this forum represents the finest in our industries world-wide.  Is this a trend that I should look at with a more open mind?    

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

My response to that is "Caveat Emptor".  

You are not looking at it and have no idea who is really looking at it during design.

It could be a PhD or some computer operator who knows nothing more than running a program.

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

(OP)
I apologize that this is not a technical question, in a technical forum.  But, I most appreciate the input of "real" engineers with proficiency in their field.

I am seeing this service used more often in the current economy.  And it is surprisingly easy to find an engineer willing to sell their seal.   

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

Not only is that practice unethical, it is illegal in the US.  This does not meet the test for "responsible charge".

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

If it is illegal in the US, why do so many companies use it and why is it so openly discussed?

I have seen trade magazines that list the merits in out-sourcing.

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

Let me get this straight, you, as a PE, can purchase a design from over seas and then seal it as your own?  

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

Absolutely, Ron hit the nail on the head.

Unethical, illegal, just say no.

Oh, and if you know of someone who didn't say no, you're also obligated to turn them in to the state licensing board in most cases.

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

(OP)
ToadJones
For us, an engineering firm, your description would be the case.  

But, I am also seeing contractors, fabricators, and detailers using these overseas companies directly.  Then paying an engineer to "review" and seal the calculations.  

DRWeig
I have never reported anyone to a state board.  But, I do find this trend to be dangerously beyond the ethical line.     

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

Connectegr,

I've never personally reported anyone either, but that's only because somebody beat me to it (twice in my career).

Plan-stampers somehow manage to goof up and get caught pretty darned often.  It's amazing to me...

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

Let's be serious here...
This goes beyond an ethical line and hits us directly in the wallet.
Its no different than any other kind of outsourcing.

The part that has always irritated me about this type of stuff going on in engineering is the fact that engineers seem to hold themselves above other professions in terms of any kind of union or rights to work.
It is the only "profession" that can be practiced without licensure or certification...simply rendering not a "profession".
You can't even teach high school students without being certified.  

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

My simple answer - "NO" it is not ethical

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

PS - You might want to post this in the "Professional Ethics in Engineering" forum.

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

First let me say that I agree that this is unethical behavior.  I hope we never have to resort to this kind of practice.
But let's say you work for a large company with offices in multiple locations. To even out workload or whatever reason, you ask for assistance from another office. "Please design a 30'-0" long beam with a 4 kip/ft load on it for me." He/she does the calculation and you include it in the design notes. Is that really different from the examples above? What does responsible charge mean?
If you outsource calculations, you better dog gone be sure they're right.  The results need to pass your "Spidey Sense." But that's the same whether they're done overseas or at the desk next to you.

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

There are substantial companies whose business plan is to bag and ship. I doubt that any of them actually review the work. The state boards know it is going on and don't say anything. I don't think this is responsible charge but it is openly discussed.  

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

I have been complaining about this outrsourcing scenario for years to no avail.  It is so prevalent, companies do it to remain competitive.  Brings back memories of labor before unions in this country if you asked me.

The solution here is self-policing and permanently removing the offenders.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

If you are looking for someone to design for you I would say no. But if you are looking for someone to size for you?
    The wood truss industry is a prime example of having someone size for you. The manufacturer inputs the loading conditions and available member sizes in a program to check if it meets the engineer requirements. Then they send it to the engineer to be designed based on these loading conditions and sizes. Now in this case it is the engineer's customer (who is not licensed) that is doing the grunt work of picking the structural member sizes to be designed by the engineer.
    So should an engineer send a job overseas to get the grunt work determination of an acceptable design, structural members, connections, sizes, etc. so that they would only need to calculate/design once?  I would say that this may be acceptable (you would need to check with the project's state engineering board).  

Garth Dreger PE
AZ Phoenix area

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

I have the same questions as JedClampett having worked at large company that spread work around the various offices.  To me "Responsible Charge" might well mean someone doing calculations at a remote location, and a PE checking them thoroughly and possibly going back and forth a bit with the remote office before sealing them.  I don't see what is wrong with this in theory - as long as the PE is totally confident about what he or she sealed.     

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

(OP)
As I said, I have no problem with a design team working in multiple office.  But, this is still under the supervision of the licensed engineer and the satellite offices probably have engineering management for supervision, with share company guidelines.  

I have seen large industrial projects, that were literally worked on 24 hours a day.  The model was stored on a server and pickup by different offices to continue analysis.  But, still under the supervision of a licensed engineer for the project.  And a significant coordination system is in place.

My concern is this "blind" out-sourcing to the lowest bidder.  And companies that actually market this service to engineering firms, contractors, etc.   

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

"If it is illegal in the US, why do so many companies use it and why is it so openly discussed?"


A lot of things are illegal but the law hasn't put criminals out of business.
 

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

(OP)
It is all about the money. Somewhere being the most qualified was over powered by being cheapest.    

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

Simply stated, is it professionally ethical to purchase design calculations and analysis at grossly discounted rates from overseas (or anywhere), and apply your professional seal with no direct supervision of the design personnel?

According to my association (APEGGA) guidelines under the Code of Ethics:

Quote:

A professional stamp or seal affixed to a document is intended to indicate that the document has been produced under the supervision and control of a fully qualified member of APEGGA, or that it has been thoroughly reviewed by a professional member of APEGGA who accepts responsibility for it.  Professional stamps and seals shall be affixed, signed and dated only after the responsible member is satisfied that the document or component for which he or she is professionally responsible is complete and correct.

My interpretation of the above is that the professional may seal a document either by (a) having had control of production of the document or (b) having reviewed and accepted full responsibility for the document.

The purchase price for such work, in my opinion, has no bearing on professional ethics.
 

BA

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

(OP)
BA
Would you accept full reponsibility for calculations where were not prepared under your supervision or thoroughly reviewed by yourself.  I expect not. But, this is what I see happening.

Actually I see this issue less in our Canadian work. Engineers, fabricators, and contractors request our qualifications before awarding the project. Maybe the US should require the  APEGGA ethics test for a PE.  

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

connectegr,

I would not accept responsibility for work which I had neither supervised nor reviewed.  

I am aware that it is happening, primarily in some of the larger firms.  An engineer who is asked to seal drawings prepared offshore may be afraid of losing his job if he refuses, especially in a tight economy such as we have seen in recent years.  

An engineer who has opted to take that risk can very easily lose his right to practice the profession if somebody takes the trouble to lodge a complaint with APEGGA.  

The practice is clearly unethical.

BA

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

And yet where is the difference between an office using labour abroad and an office having several "technicians"? Or you don't do that in the US? A recently graduated "engineer" does the real work, you as a PE review and stamp it. Does it really matter that it was done locally or abroad when anyway you were attending a meeting or doing some other work while it was done?

I believe it happens, and even though I live in a country where prices are far lower than in US, we still have companies offering even lower than the "normal" here.

But quality and professionalism find their way through at the end. Be professional, be a top performer and people (and money, and fame) will come to you.

No offence intended, but it is the same as having an original German (or US) machine and say a "Chinese" one. You choose and take the consequences.

Mike

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

There is a difference.  Supervision and control by a qualified engineer means reviewing the design and preparation of drawings and specifications on a regular basis.  It may entail a daily or weekly meeting in which problems are discussed amongst the group responsible for the work.  Discussion among team members must be encouraged in order for the team to be pulling in the same direction.

Teamwork is very important.  No team member should be assigned a job which is beyond his capabilities.  One or more members may be asked to oversee the work of junior members.  The team leader will require a design review from time to time to ensure that the work is up to par and is on target for completion.

The team leader can be absent from the design office without affecting the quality of the work if the team has been created properly.

This atmosphere is usually lacking when an offshore group is responsible for the design and/or preparation of documents.  The responsible engineer, i.e. the engineer who will ultimately place his seal and signature on the documents does not know anyone on the design team.  The only discussion will be by email or phone and often there is a language barrier making that type of contact difficult and cumbersome.

I do not suggest that it is impossible to create an acceptable atmosphere with an offshore group, but to do it, the responsible engineer must have effective "supervision and control" even if it is at a distance.  From what I have read on this thread, that is not generally being done.

BA

RE: Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

(OP)
Thanks for all the feedback.

I think BA summarized my understanding of professional supervision.  Hopefully a disaster is not required to draw serious attention to this trend.  I will certainly not provide any support to these companies.  I believe that we should be held to the highest standard of professional responsibility.

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

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