should i accept a low-ball offer?
should i accept a low-ball offer?
(OP)
I have 4 years experience in geotechnical engineering, I just sat for my PE exam last weekend and likely passed. My previous salaries steadily increased to just under $60,000 over the last 4 years.
I have been laid off for 8 months now. I have had very few call backs. I got an interivew, then called back for a 2nd, and then a 3rd, just got an offer letter for $37,000/yr with an expectation of 55 hrs/week (comes out to $13/hr).
I'm not sure I would be able to pay the mortgage with that, much less be comfortable with a wife and 3 kids. I haven't gotten any reliable salary info for the Southern US, but a licensed geotechnical PE for $37K? At this point in my career I wouldn't be stamping anything of course.
The offer letter states I have 2 days to accept, this makes me think they have 5 or more candidates and low-ball each one til someone accepts. Should I try to counter offer, just take it, or refuse? I dont have a gauruntee of a pay increase to match my experiencea year or 2 years down the line. Maybe they think i'll work for a 10% raise every year and in 30 years be back to what i was making.
I am currently thinking I will make a counter for at least $45,000 and continue with the job search if they refuse.
I have been laid off for 8 months now. I have had very few call backs. I got an interivew, then called back for a 2nd, and then a 3rd, just got an offer letter for $37,000/yr with an expectation of 55 hrs/week (comes out to $13/hr).
I'm not sure I would be able to pay the mortgage with that, much less be comfortable with a wife and 3 kids. I haven't gotten any reliable salary info for the Southern US, but a licensed geotechnical PE for $37K? At this point in my career I wouldn't be stamping anything of course.
The offer letter states I have 2 days to accept, this makes me think they have 5 or more candidates and low-ball each one til someone accepts. Should I try to counter offer, just take it, or refuse? I dont have a gauruntee of a pay increase to match my experiencea year or 2 years down the line. Maybe they think i'll work for a 10% raise every year and in 30 years be back to what i was making.
I am currently thinking I will make a counter for at least $45,000 and continue with the job search if they refuse.





RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
They shouldn't be surprised when you quit.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
Everyone in business is aware of the unusually severe nature of the current depression (The US gov't keeps calling it a recession, but the numbers are worse than that, IMHO.) As a hiring manager, I wouldn't hold that against you. It would impress me that you took the initiative to do something, rather than sit back and collect unemployment. It's sort of like the folks who were working Aerospace and Defense in California in the 90's and beyond. The aerospace turndown put a lot of people out of work, and people started hopping around, doing anything, full-time or contract, to keep working. Now, when I see these resumes where they spent a year here, and two years there, during that time period, I don't even blink an eye. The story is the same for everyone affected. Entirely understandable given the particulars of that era.
Besides, the conventional wisdom is that it's always easier to find a job, when you have a job. I wouldn't assume, that after 8 months, something else is going to pop up in line with your previous salary, anytime soon. Unfortunately, it's supply and demand at play, and the people making you an offer are, obviously, fully aware of it. Underemployed still beats unemployed, in my book.
-Tony Staples
www.tscombustion.com
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
I would take the job and keep looking. More money > Less money.
Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com
http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
to the OP, I wouldn't take it. Lowballing the salary is tolerable in this climate but, it's the 55hr/wk that would get me. Sounds like you need to relocate or go back to school and become a professor.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
Before I take a job I decide what they will pay me. Only once have I broken that rule and it cost me (in retrospect) 4 years of substandard pay, I ended up moving 600 miles to get out of that. Ever since then I have played hardball.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
Don't even think about relocating for that sort of money.
If you do take it, treat it as a contract position; get out as soon as anything better comes along.
The lack of guaranteed pay increases means nothing when you are starting from such a low base.
Don't fret about the 2 day acceptance limit; it won't hurt if you miss out.
And yes, I would feel insulted with that offer.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
There is no reason for a firm to do that.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
What, except that they are in business fundamentally to make money and that this is a more or less capitalist economy and that as such they are taking advantage of 'supply and demand'? Adam Smith would approve wouldn't he?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
Sounds to me like you should job-hunt in Houston.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
But seriously, I'm with Ron on this one. It is absolutely disgusting and degrades our profession when employers do something like that.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
$110,000/yr (oil and gas BOOM) then got laid off..
after 3 months unemployment, accepted $55,000/yr salary, worked for about 3 months...
resigned 2 months ago.. still jobless =(
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
That being said, if you NEED the job take it, but for goodness sake keep looking like you are still unemployed.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
There is something to be said for working while looking for a new job, but you also cannot dedicate as much time as you could if you were home. The decision on whether to take the job or not really comes down to if there are any other potential opportunities in your area. I would certainly make a counter offer and see what they say, but from what you have reported so far, it looks like they want the lowest cost person regardless of quality.
On a positive note, I have gotten 4 phone calls in the last few weeks from recruiters I talked with last summer so it appears the job market might be opening up again.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
I am sure most if not all will agree that is very poor money especially for those hours. I am sure most if not all could give examples of when they would not even consider taking a job on those terms, however those unfortunate enough to have been without work and struggling to make ends meet know that not everything in the world is ideal.
It really boils down to you and your family, if you can get by on benefit and are happy to "scrounge" from society then don't take it, if you need the money or working gives you a higher self esteem then take it.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
Add that you will be pleased to accept the offer once the typo's have been corrected ... in writing.
They will probably not even bother to respond, but at least you will have made your point in a professional manner.
Or you could take the other approach and respond with
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
The next job will ask you how much you are making and will only give you an increase on that. So if you're making $37k and get another job, don't expect to make more than 10% to 15% more.
If you take it, it will take you years to get back to your current salary.
If you do not take the job, you will be able to use your previous salary as a baseline.
I've only been out of work for a month, but I'm not taking any lowball offers until my savings run out and I'm forced to.
I'd love to work, but not if it will hurt me in the long run. If you take this job for $37k, it could take you 5 years or more to get back to $60k. If you wait, you might be able to get a decent paying job in a few months.
Besides, do you really want to work for a company that you already know is going to screw you over every chance they get?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
If you have to - take the offer. But I'd *definitely* keep looking.
Unless you have a Masters, get out of geotech. Every geotech I've ever met is bitter and frustrated with their career and pay far beyond even your typical engineer. It's just such a limited field.
Look into road and public work contractors. you would have a better career op. and definitely make more money.
Just my $0.02
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
I turned down a low offer just after Xmas and I'm glad I did. I found a job that pays a lot better that I would never have found had I accepted the other job.
I'm lucky in the fact that I have no kids, wife, or mortgage, in the sense that I wasn't in a situation where I had to take the job. But, IMO if you're working 60 hours a week and you have a family on top of that, it's going to be tough to find the time you need to find that better job.
I'm not sure where you were laid off from, but have you tried going back there? I know where I was laid off the company has started turning it around a little bit and if I was desperate they might be in a position to hire me back if I had asked.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
You do not say which state you are in, Southern US covers a lot of territory. California is paying $23,400. per year in unemployment compensation to a person with a salary of $60,000. Georgia pays $17,160 If you are east of California then take the job and keep looking. If you are in California you may make more money staying home when you factor in your driving expenses. This would give you a better opportunity to keep up your job search.
However employers do have a nasty habit of wanting to hire somebody who is already employed.
B.E.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
How hungry are your wife & 3 kids?
Sometimes you must do what you must do. Other times, not so much.
Of course they're lowballing you. That's the game. Strap on the pads and get in there and play with the big boys. You've got nothing now, so you've got nothing to lose.
Counter back with a little higher pay, less hours.
Counter back with higher hourly rate as an independent contractor, no bennies, and guaranteed weekly hours + OT.
Wake up, smell the coffee, and realize that this new job (and the next, and the next, and...) are only stepping stones to the next job. As an underpaid overworked taskmaster's lackey you may gain amazing hands-on real-world experience. This is price you would pay for that very intense and valuable work experience. On the other hand, if you don't feel that this position would provide you with useful experience, reconsider.
DON'T go in there with a "this is insulting" chip on your shoulder, you are only worth what the market will pay. Be professional at all times. THAT will pay tremenous benefits in the long run.
TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
Obviously I agree with everybody that the company is abusing its position but what goes around gets around. The same company might see itself with no employees in 2 years.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
Only if people stop accepting their ridiculous low-ball offers. As others have pointed out, you could earn more by waiting tables, bar-tending or pumping gas.
"Counter back with higher hourly rate as an independent contractor, no bennies, and guaranteed weekly hours + OT."
That's the best idea I've read so far. Especially if able to work from home.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
I've gotten several calls just in the past 2 weeks from recruiters, and had 2 interviews, based on the fact that I was "immediately available". I have 2 side gigs doing inspection work for a contractor under my own business - and, as a P.E., I consider myself permanently employed, even if that employer is myself. And even if that employer is broke ;)
What counts is experience. Engineers are not pack mules or worker bees. Be a "hard worker" is not nearly as valuable as being a smart-one.
Don't fall for the mind games or intimidation tactics. There are some good companies out there that would love to bring on people, pay them well, treat them right - but they are in the same boat as everyone else. Economy bad = no hiring.
But that will change. I see it changing now.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
I worked retail for a year when I was first in the states 'cause I couldn't find an engineering one - $37k would have been darn tempting - more than double the pay I was getting in retail. I was making much less than $13/hr, just over half as much a regular old 'sales associate', and some weeks got less than 20 hours and rarely very close to 40 hours. Working 2 jobs sounded like a good idea until I tried to schedule the shifts for both.
Of course, I didn't have any unemployment benefits to rely on.
So if you can afford to say no to this offer good on you. However, if you have bills to pay, a family to support...
I was at a job fair just today, my guess is a lot of the other folks there would have taken a $13/hr job and been gratefull.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
So many people took the time to respond how about a reply?
What did you do and how did it go?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
Consider a waiter at a reasonably good restaurant (not a greasy spoon);
Waiter serves 3 tables per hour
Average tip for good service is 15%
Average food bill per table is $40 (mix of two and four people)
So 3 tables at $40 x 15% = $18
Subtract the sharing for non-serving staff, say probably 1/3, so balance is $12
Even if the tips were half that amount, add minimum wage and the $13/hr is easy.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
My wife gets to see pay checks for all kinds of manual and service sector jobs, now of course I'm sure some of them play down how much they make in tips, but still the pay and the hours per week don't really add up to 37k.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
They called me and told me over the phone, i told them they must have mad a mistake because it was $6k less then i was currently making. Then I politely told the lady no thank you.
The next week I got a job offer, for the place i work now with a 12% raise.
I was lucky but if you get low balled hopefully something better may be right around the corner.
Cheers
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
thanks for all the responses. I definitely took them all into consideration during all of this.
It went something like this... The next day I guess they expected me to accept. I only responded with an email saying:
The offer is lower than I expected and I would like some time to think about it. ect. ect. fluff
Got a feeler call after this, answered and dodged all loaded questions and reiterated i would like to consider it further.
I read all the wonderful responses here again. Then set to work creating a professionally styled, point by point, counter offer. As opposed to haggling on the phone, I felt i could better state my case in a counter letter.
I further researched salaries, the most helpful info was from my univ. career center's posted STARTING salaries, also surrounding regional universities. Though these didn't directly apply to me as I am not a recent grad. These starting salaries were well above my offer, THOUGH the placement rates had fallen below 40% from the 90+% when i graduated. So I craftily worded the base salary section.
I added on $10K, next highest bonus level package, 90 wait period for benefits waived, and an immediate $5k bump upon PE licensure. PDF'd it and sent it over that night.
Got a call back the next day, and they accepted my counter in full, so i accepted. Not what I was making but at least I'm in the ball park now and Employed and out of the house. Thanks guys!
ps. you know i didn't expect to become a rich man when i studied civil, nor did i expect to become a poor man, but my family size qualifies for state health care benefits '09-'10 with this salary. Maybe i should change fields!
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
However, you are still getting a sub-standard pay, particularly if you are putting in more than 40 hours a weeks. Keep your eyes and ears open.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
Seriously, well done.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
The wealthiest man in the world has a degree in civil engineering (carlos slim helo) - as does the CEO of ExxonMobil.
Life is what you make of it.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
So, what is our commission for your salary and benefits raise?;)
Seriously, good luck and I hope in 6 months time you are posting saying that you were raised another 10K due to your good performance.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
I have found it best to negotiate when accepting a new job. It is usually the only chance you will get to do it.
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
Good job ragedriven! I was going to recommend that you not take it or counter. It's never a good thing to be in a place where you are forced to accept something you should not have to. For me, it would have been a no brainer and told them NO DEAL. But now I'm going to archive this thread and use your tactics!
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
Outstanding!!! As sourdough Jack sez: "ya done good!". Obviously, you thought logically and clear enough about the situation, of which only you know all details, to seek a better resolution. This is typical of engineers.
As my fellow co-workers state: "Do not let the bastards wear ya down".
Congrats on employment and good luck with your future!
-pmover
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
Congrats! You did exactly as I (and others) recommended, and it worked out beautifully. Now you are in a much better position to find the next opportunity, as the market keeps (hopefully) improving. Get back to work, settle in, and then make sure to keep your feelers out there for an even better opportunity!
-Tony Staples
www.tscombustion.com
RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask