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should i accept a low-ball offer?
10

should i accept a low-ball offer?

should i accept a low-ball offer?

(OP)
I have 4 years experience in geotechnical engineering, I just sat for my PE exam last weekend and likely passed.  My previous salaries steadily increased to just under $60,000 over the last 4 years.

I have been laid off for 8 months now.  I have had very few call backs.  I got an interivew, then called back for a 2nd, and then a 3rd, just got an offer letter for $37,000/yr with an expectation of 55 hrs/week (comes out to $13/hr).  

I'm not sure I would be able to pay the mortgage with that, much less be comfortable with a wife and 3 kids.  I haven't gotten any reliable salary info for the Southern US, but a licensed geotechnical PE for $37K? At this point in my career I wouldn't be stamping anything of course.

The offer letter states I have 2 days to accept, this makes me think they have 5 or more candidates and low-ball each one til someone accepts.  Should I try to counter offer, just take it, or refuse?  I dont have a gauruntee of a pay increase to match my experiencea year or 2 years down the line.  Maybe they think i'll work for a 10% raise every year and in 30 years be back to what i was making.  

I am currently thinking I will make a counter for at least $45,000 and continue with the job search if they refuse.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Sounds like a plan to me, unless you are really desparate for that paycheck.  In any event, keep up with the job search.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Take the job and keep looking for better opportunities and in the mean time you gather our invaluable experience!.
 

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

If it's more than unemployment and has insurance take it and keep looking.

They shouldn't be surprised when you quit.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

My only comment is that you have to assume that you didn't pass until you have the letter in your hands.  You have to take your present value, unless you will get your letter within 2 days.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

I wouldn't take it.  lower is fun, but that's almost insulting.  It will reset your pay grade from here on out, and IMO that is worse than starting over.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Assuming they will entertain discussion regarding the offer, I would counter first, and see what the response is like.  They made you the offer first for some preferential reason.  Either you are the preferred initial candidate, or they offered it to someone else prior, who declined, and you are now the preferred candidate.  If they don't budge, I would then accept the initial offer, but keep looking.  Something is better than nothing, in this economy.  When the next prospective employer asks why you took it, just be honest, and explain that although it was lower than your true market value, you would rather work and pay the bills, than not work.

Everyone in business is aware of the unusually severe nature of the current depression (The US gov't keeps calling it a recession, but the numbers are worse than that, IMHO.) As a hiring manager, I wouldn't hold that against you.  It would impress me that you took the initiative to do something, rather than sit back and collect unemployment.  It's sort of like the folks who were working Aerospace and Defense in California in the 90's and beyond.  The aerospace turndown put a lot of people out of work, and people started hopping around, doing anything, full-time or contract, to keep working.  Now, when I see these resumes where they spent a year here, and two years there, during that time period, I don't even blink an eye.  The story is the same for everyone affected.  Entirely understandable given the particulars of that era.

Besides, the conventional wisdom is that it's always easier to find a job, when you have a job. I wouldn't assume, that after 8 months, something else is going to pop up in line with your previous salary, anytime soon.  Unfortunately, it's supply and demand at play, and the people making you an offer are, obviously, fully aware of it.  Underemployed still beats unemployed, in my book.

-Tony Staples
www.tscombustion.com

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

You aren't a licensed PE getting offered a $37k/yr job.  I would rather not have gaps in my resume.  I think all those people not actively looking for a job and remaining on UE are going to have some interesting explaining when the job market comes back.  I would generally look at that as the person being too lazy to find work.  The people really looking can give a real response to that answer.  

I would take the job and keep looking.  More money > Less money.

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com
http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

brandon, I think it's pretty well accepted that the market sucks.  Not sure what there is to explain.

to the OP, I wouldn't take it.  Lowballing the salary is tolerable in this climate but, it's the 55hr/wk that would get me.  Sounds like you need to relocate or go back to school and become a professor.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

FWIW 13 bucks an hour is less than minimum wage in Australia.

Before I take a job I decide what they will pay me. Only once have I broken that rule and it cost me (in retrospect) 4 years of substandard pay, I ended up moving 600 miles to get out of that. Ever since then I have played hardball.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies  http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Definitely counter-offer before accepting.

Don't even think about relocating for that sort of money.

If you do take it, treat it as a contract position; get out as soon as anything better comes along.

The lack of guaranteed pay increases means nothing when you are starting from such a low base.

Don't fret about the 2 day acceptance limit; it won't hurt if you miss out.

And yes, I would feel insulted with that offer.
 

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

I think that company's practice is deplorable.  That's less than new graduates are being offered.  I would like the name of the head of that company so I could give him a call and let him know how much damage he is doing to the profession.  I would gladly make that call.

There is no reason for a firm to do that.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Quote:

There is no reason for a firm to do that.

What, except that they are in business fundamentally to make money and that this is a more or less capitalist economy and that as such they are taking advantage of 'supply and demand'?  Adam Smith would approve wouldn't he?

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

$37,000 is too low.. but you've been unemployed for 8 months already.. so take the job and keep looking..

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Adam Smith would approve... which left room for Maynard Keynes, since we've all observed that people aren't likely to settle for less (resulting in downward "stickiness" of prices).

Sounds to me like you should job-hunt in Houston.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

I was in the exact same situation as you.  With 7 years of experience and a PE License, I was unemployed with no leads.  My only job offer was for the same amount that I made when I first graduated college.  It sucks but I accepted the offer and would recommend you to as well.  I would definately keep your eyes open for something better but as they say, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.    

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

That's an insulting offer, but if it is your best option I can understand you consideration of it.

But seriously, I'm with Ron on this one.  It is absolutely disgusting and degrades our profession when employers do something like that.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

The Grapes of Wrath, here we come!

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

here is my salary history..

$110,000/yr (oil and gas BOOM) then got laid off..
after 3 months unemployment, accepted $55,000/yr salary, worked for about 3 months...
resigned 2 months ago.. still jobless =(

 

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

I'm looking at this a little differently, but $37k for an EXPECTED 55 hours per week?  That's outrageous IMHO.  That leaves almost no time except for weekends to spend with your wife and three kids.  Additionally, if they are expecting 55 in the offer letter, then that is essentially your baseline (40 hours) so don't be surprised if that 55 quickly turns into 60-65, just like everyone else's 40 turns into 50.

That being said, if you NEED the job take it, but for goodness sake keep looking like you are still unemployed.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

I would rather be unemployed then accept a job offer that low, especially with the 55 hr/wk requirement.  I made more then that with 4 years experience in 1994 and my unemployment check last summer (out of work for 5 months) came out to a "salary" of $29k/yr.  You could probably make more then that as a maintenance tech, at least at our plant our techs make double that with overtime and they are midrange for the area.

There is something to be said for working while looking for a new job, but you also cannot dedicate as much time as you could if you were home.  The decision on whether to take the job or not really comes down to if there are any other potential opportunities in your area.  I would certainly make a counter offer and see what they say, but from what you have reported so far, it looks like they want the lowest cost person regardless of quality.  

On a positive note, I have gotten 4 phone calls in the last few weeks from recruiters I talked with last summer so it appears the job market might be opening up again.

  

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

I am never really sure what sort of positive response people expect to the original post.

I am sure most if not all will agree that is very poor money especially for those hours. I am sure most if not all could give examples of when they would not even consider taking a job on those terms, however those unfortunate enough to have been without work and struggling to make ends meet know that not everything in the world is ideal.

It really boils down to you and your family, if you can get by on benefit and are happy to "scrounge" from society then don't take it, if you need the money or working gives you a higher self esteem then take it.
 

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

5
I would reply thanking them for the offer, but point out the typos in their numbers. Obviously they should have been $55,000 and 37 hours.

Add that you will be pleased to accept the offer once the typo's have been corrected ... in writing.

They will probably not even bother to respond, but at least you will have made your point in a professional manner.



Or you could take the other approach and respond with

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

I am also unemployed.  If you take the lowball offer now, it will hurt you for the rest of your career in the field you are in.

The next job will ask you how much you are making and will only give you an increase on that.  So if you're making $37k and get another job, don't expect to make more than 10% to 15% more.
If you take it, it will take you years to get back to your current salary.
If you do not take the job, you will be able to use your previous salary as a baseline.

I've only been out of work for a month, but I'm not taking any lowball offers until my savings run out and I'm forced to.
I'd love to work, but not if it will hurt me in the long run.  If you take this job for $37k, it could take you 5 years or more to get back to $60k.  If you wait, you might be able to get a decent paying job in a few months.

Besides, do you really want to work for a company that you already know is going to screw you over every chance they get?

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

wow, that's pretty bad. Geotech is probably the worst hit of all the fields of civil. In my opinion it is the worst branch of civil in terms of a career path.

If you have to - take the offer. But I'd *definitely* keep looking.

Unless you have a Masters, get out of geotech. Every geotech I've ever met is bitter and frustrated with their career and pay far beyond even your typical engineer. It's just such a limited field.

Look into road and public work contractors. you would have a better career op. and definitely make more money.

Just my $0.02

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Most geotechs I know have advanced degrees - do you?  If so, 37K is extra outrageous.  I made about 37K when I had 4 years experience and a masters degree back in 1988!  Definitely counter the offer and, if they refuse, move on.  At the very least, insist on overtime pay for work beyond 40 hours.  You could make more than $13 an hour being a waiter or a bartender.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Take the job & keep looking.  Personally I would rather work for less than I am worth than sit at home an collect a unemployment check.  I guess I have too much pride to accept handouts if there are ANY other options....  

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

I have been laid for almost 6 months now.  Luckily, I just accepted an offer and start work in a couple weeks.

I turned down a low offer just after Xmas and I'm glad I did.  I found a job that pays a lot better that I would never have found had I accepted the other job.  

I'm lucky in the fact that I have no kids, wife, or mortgage, in the sense that I wasn't in a situation where I had to take the job.  But, IMO if you're working 60 hours a week and you have a family on top of that, it's going to be tough to find the time you need to find that better job.

I'm not sure where you were laid off from, but have you tried going back there?  I know where I was laid off the company has started turning it around a little bit and if I was desperate they might be in a position to hire me back if I had asked.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Either the economy will pick up and you will have the power to renegotiate or the economy will tank even further and your next job offer will be even less.  Don't be one of the people who have had their house on the market for the past 3 years because they won't lower their price.   

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

ragedriven
You do not say which state you are in, Southern US covers a lot of territory. California is paying $23,400. per year in unemployment compensation to a person with a salary of $60,000. Georgia pays $17,160 If you are east of California then take the job and keep looking. If you are in California you may make more money staying home when you factor in your driving expenses. This would give you a better opportunity to keep up your job search.
 However employers do have a nasty habit of wanting to hire somebody who is already employed.
B.E.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

I would be insulted. I AM insulted for you.  The job market seems to be unfreezing... for a while there I was in the same boat: no interviews, calls, nothing december-early march. Then all of the sudden it began... lots of interviews. I say hang in there a little while longer and find something better.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Sheesh.  Lots of anger here, them negative vibes are distracting.

How hungry are your wife & 3 kids?  

Sometimes you must do what you must do.  Other times, not so much.

Of course they're lowballing you.  That's the game.  Strap on the pads and get in there and play with the big boys.  You've got nothing now, so you've got nothing to lose.

Counter back with a little higher pay, less hours.
Counter back with higher hourly rate as an independent contractor, no bennies, and guaranteed weekly hours + OT.

Wake up, smell the coffee, and realize that this new job (and the next, and the next, and...) are only stepping stones to the next job.  As an underpaid overworked taskmaster's lackey you may gain amazing hands-on real-world experience.  This is price you would pay for that very intense and valuable work experience.  On the other hand, if you don't feel that this position would provide you with useful experience, reconsider.

DON'T go in there with a "this is insulting" chip on your shoulder, you are only worth what the market will pay.  Be professional at all times.  THAT will pay tremenous benefits in the long run.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Just for consideration. Another reason to take an underpaid job is that it might allow you to network and interact with other engineers/companies/clients/supliers and they might offer you a job. In my experience, many jobs are not filled through advertising but through networking.

Obviously I agree with everybody that the company is abusing its position but what goes around gets around. The same company might see itself with no employees in 2 years.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

"The same company might see itself with no employees in 2 years. "

Only if people stop accepting their ridiculous low-ball offers. As others have pointed out, you could earn more by waiting tables, bar-tending or pumping gas.


"Counter back with higher hourly rate as an independent contractor, no bennies, and guaranteed weekly hours + OT."

That's the best idea I've read so far. Especially if able to work from home.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

You know - I kinda have to disagree with "if you have a job it's easy to find a job" conventional wisdom. Particularly in this market.

I've gotten several calls just in the past 2 weeks from recruiters, and had 2 interviews, based on the fact that I was "immediately available". I have 2 side gigs doing inspection work for a contractor under my own business - and, as a P.E., I consider myself permanently employed, even if that employer is myself. And even if that employer is broke ;)

What counts is experience. Engineers are not pack mules or worker bees. Be a "hard worker" is not nearly as valuable as being a smart-one.

Don't fall for the mind games or intimidation tactics. There are some good companies out there that would love to bring on people, pay them well, treat them right - but they are in the same boat as everyone else. Economy bad = no hiring.

But that will change. I see it changing now.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Hmm, not sure where all these service sector jobs making $13+ an hour for 55hrs a week are - or at least were when I would have taken one.  

I worked retail for a year when I was first in the states 'cause I couldn't find an engineering one - $37k would have been darn tempting - more than double the pay I was getting in retail.  I was making much less than $13/hr, just over half as much a regular old 'sales associate', and some weeks got less than 20 hours and rarely very close to 40 hours.  Working 2 jobs sounded like a good idea until I tried to schedule the shifts for both.

Of course, I didn't have any unemployment benefits to rely on.

So if you can afford to say no to this offer good on you.  However, if you have bills to pay, a family to support...

I was at a job fair just today, my guess is a lot of the other folks there would have taken a $13/hr job and been gratefull.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

ragedriven

So many people took the time to respond how about a reply?
What did you do and how did it go?

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

KENAT ... You were in retail grocery if I remember correctly. Not a hope in hell of getting tips there.

Consider a waiter at a reasonably good restaurant (not a greasy spoon);
Waiter serves 3 tables per hour
Average tip for good service is 15%
Average food bill per table is $40 (mix of two and four people)

So 3 tables at $40 x 15% = $18

Subtract the sharing for non-serving staff, say probably 1/3, so balance is $12

Even if the tips were half that amount, add minimum wage and the $13/hr is easy.
 

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Good waiters/waitresses/bar keeps in moderately good establishments do OK, sure.  However, a lot of them are part time gigs, so I wouldn't count on getting anywhere near the 55 hours mark.  Or if you do it's because you're working 2 gigs or the like.

My wife gets to see pay checks for all kinds of manual and service sector jobs, now of course I'm sure some of them play down how much they make in tips, but still the pay and the hours per week don't really add up to 37k.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

I am not saying what i did was right, but i got low-balled once.

They called me and told me over the phone, i told them they must have mad a mistake because it was $6k less then i was currently making. Then I politely told the lady no thank you.

The next week I got a job offer, for the place i work now with a 12% raise.

I was lucky but if you get low balled hopefully something better may be right around the corner.

Cheers

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

2
(OP)
<---------- OP
thanks for all the responses.  I definitely took them all into consideration during all of this.

It went something like this... The next day I guess they expected me to accept.  I only responded with an email saying:
The offer is lower than I expected and I would like some time to think about it.  ect. ect. fluff

Got a feeler call after this, answered and dodged all loaded questions and reiterated i would like to consider it further.

I read all the wonderful responses here again.  Then set to work creating a professionally styled, point by point, counter offer.  As opposed to haggling on the phone, I felt i could better state my case in a counter letter.

I further researched salaries, the most helpful info was from my univ. career center's posted STARTING salaries, also surrounding regional universities.  Though these didn't directly apply to me as I am not a recent grad.  These starting salaries were well above my offer, THOUGH the placement rates had fallen below 40% from the 90+% when i graduated.  So I craftily worded the base salary section.

I added on $10K, next highest bonus level package, 90 wait period for benefits waived, and an immediate $5k bump upon PE licensure.  PDF'd it and sent it over that night.  

Got a call back the next day, and they accepted my counter in full, so i accepted.  Not what I was making but at least I'm in the ball park now and Employed and out of the house.  Thanks guys!   

ps.  you know i didn't expect to become a rich man when i studied civil, nor did i expect to become a poor man, but my family size qualifies for state health care benefits '09-'10 with this salary.  Maybe i should change fields!

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Realy glad it worked out. Good luck!

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Glad to hear you got an offer that is more reasonable. cheers

However, you are still getting a sub-standard pay, particularly if you are putting in more than 40 hours a weeks.  Keep your eyes and ears open.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

ps.  you know i didn't expect to become a rich man when i studied civil, nor did i expect to become a poor man, but my family size qualifies for state health care benefits '09-'10 with this salary.  Maybe i should change fields!

The wealthiest man in the world has a degree in civil engineering (carlos slim helo) - as does the CEO of ExxonMobil.

Life is what you make of it.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

ragedriven:
So, what is our commission for your salary and benefits raise?;)

Seriously, good luck and I hope in 6 months time you are posting saying that you were raised another 10K due to your good performance.
 

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Thank you for the follow up. Now when someone else comes here with the same situation you can give them some hope.

I have found it best to negotiate when accepting a new job. It is usually the only chance you will get to do it.

 

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

glade to hear it all worked out

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?


Good job ragedriven!  I was going to recommend that you not take it or counter.  It's never a good thing to be in a place where you are forced to accept something you should not have to.  For me, it would have been a no brainer and told them NO DEAL. But now I'm going to archive this thread and use your tactics!

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Ragedriven,

Outstanding!!!  As sourdough Jack sez: "ya done good!".  Obviously, you thought logically and clear enough about the situation, of which only you know all details, to seek a better resolution.  This is typical of engineers.

As my fellow co-workers state: "Do not let the bastards wear ya down".

Congrats on employment and good luck with your future!
-pmover

 

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

My worst job and longest employment was after a low ball offer. Hold out for something better. They say that offers come in bunches. I can confirm that from experience.

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

I have noticed that then number of calls from recruiters always increased after I have accepted a new position.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

ragedriven,

Congrats!  You did exactly as I (and others) recommended, and it worked out beautifully.  Now you are in a much better position to find the next opportunity, as the market keeps (hopefully) improving. Get back to work, settle in, and then make sure to keep your feelers out there for an even better opportunity!

-Tony Staples
www.tscombustion.com

RE: should i accept a low-ball offer?

Congratulations.  You have successfully navigated the jungle of unemployment.  Best wishes in your new position.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

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