Accepting then declining
Accepting then declining
(OP)
Is it ethical to accept an offer then decline at a later date. I feel that the company has not done their part to help me, i was made an offer at the first of January and I'm not one month from graduation and still have no start date, but i just got another offer thats even better. Is it wrong to back out now? There is no contract and it says that the company or I can end the employment relationship at any time for any or no reason.





RE: Accepting then declining
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Accepting then declining
RE: Accepting then declining
Took my post-grad holiday, paid first and last month's rent on an apartment, moved in, and went to see my new boss. He said, "Hi, welcome to XXX- your pay's been cut by 5%". I'd rejected an offer 4% lower from them previously in negotiation.
Firm #2 had long ago moved on and hired someone else.
So there I was- rewarded for my "ethics" by 18% less pay than I could have been making, and 1% less than an offer I had already rejected.
Remember that this is just business and a job offer is just that- an offer. You can accept it- so you have an offer and acceptance. But since no money or other "compensation" changes hands, this does NOT CONSTITUTE A CONTRACT.
Work where you feel you'll do best- for them AND for you. Forget about which offer comes in first. Good luck to you!
RE: Accepting then declining
"Employment At Will" works both ways.
Most American companies don't set the ethical bar very high in their dealings with customers, suppliers, government, or competitors.
In their dealings with employees, they set the ethical bar below the frost line.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Accepting then declining
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Accepting then declining
Take a cue from Toucan Sam and follow your nose.
RE: Accepting then declining
RE: Accepting then declining
I did this again at the next job I took. I accepted and was talked out of it, with a large raise and yada yada. That company was not so happy either.
You will burn your bridges, as the engineering community is smaller than it appears, but do what is best for yourself. Always remember though if you have any form of ambition in this profession you will meet these people again.
Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com
http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog
RE: Accepting then declining
RE: Accepting then declining
If a sense of loyalty is a constraint, consider doing charity work in your spare time. Get what you can going in the door, it might not be avalable later. I've been in the same position, including coming out of school. Even with a contract, you never know whether a company is going to force you to hire a lawyer to enforce the contract, or whether you will be in the next round of layoffs. I've been in those places before, too. Get it while you can.
RE: Accepting then declining
RE: Accepting then declining
And although I wouldn't necessarily push you into keeping your apparent commitment to them, it's something to consider, particularly if the job neighborhood is small. It might not take much to build up a reputation as a fickle, flighty person.
TTFN
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RE: Accepting then declining
Sometimes you will "lose" money on a job or leave money on the table. Oh well......
Clifford H Laubstein
FL PE 58662
RE: Accepting then declining
RE: Accepting then declining
Personally I try to live my life along the lines of treating others as I would want them to treat me, that does not make me the most successful of business man but I sleep well at night.
Again personally I hope you turn down the first offer and then the second company contacts you and says actually we have found someone who will work for less so our offer no longer stands.
People who behave in this way deserve to meet others who act in the same way be they employers or employees, only then might they start to realise that there is a better way.
RE: Accepting then declining
Diary notes, confirmation letters and especially reliable witnesses are very useful. Under Australian law a dispute would be heard by a judge who would decide on balance of probabilities.
Don't ask me how I know.
I may be old fashioned or naive, but I think your word is your bond, however wherever possible back it up with some documentation signed by both parties or copied to third parties.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Accepting then declining
I know Australian law is very much based on English law and here in England verbal contracts are legally binding, but notoriously hard to prove, however there are exceptions and employment contracts and property transfer are two of those.
RE: Accepting then declining
If someone says "so do you want the job" without me seeing the paperwork, that is another thing entirely.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Accepting then declining
There is a grey area between a serious expression of interest and a firm commitment.
Before it is a firm commitment basic details like salary and conditions and starting date must be agreed.
My verbal contract was over contract employment, not salaried so that might be different. It never came to a head, I just felt a need to get advice at the time.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Accepting then declining
A job offer is NOT a contract, even if accepted, and even if both parties agree to it in writing. If they pay you a signing bonus, or relocation fees, then that's a different matter.
RE: Accepting then declining
Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net
RE: Accepting then declining
-In January, a company made you a job offer without details, namely start date which you verbally accepted;
-4 months later, you don't have yet any start date or more details;
-Meanwhile, you got another offer which is better.
I have some questions:
-Do you keep in touch with your company #1? How do you know that they are still interested on you? How do you know that there wasn't any hiring freeze come into force? How do you know that meanwhile they already found another guy to your position and "forgot" to let you know, just to keep you hanging and just in case their first choice blew it?
After you answer those questions, you will find the solution for your problem.
RE: Accepting then declining
-I'm expatriate in SouthEast Asia for 8 years. 3 or 4 years ago, I saw an advertisement from a headhunter with a job position for my country that matched exactly my skills and experience. I applied, and coincidently, I was going back for holidays during the interviewing process. I went to 2 interviews with the headhunter, which were quite sucessful and then the last interview with the general manager of the company which I felt quite sucessful also. There was some negotiation over salary and benefits, but everything seemed to move in the right direction. I had to make a several long trips (around 1000Km) to visit family, so I was waiting for a decision from them.
I called the headhunter several times, explaining that I was on holidays and had to make some trips,that I was waiting for some asnwers to know if I had to go for the final meeting. They always said that the company was really impressed with me, that they were interested, and blablabla...After the 3rd call to them, I just went on with my life and continue my holidays. After a week or so, they called me saying that after all they chose another guy since the beginning and in the end they confessed that they were just waiting him to sign the contract to tell me so. So they hanged me there with smooth talk just in case the other guy didn't accept or they find out that he just a psycopathic assassin.
Well, in the end this didn't go bad for me. I continue expatriate but my salary increased around 30% since.
RE: Accepting then declining
I guess our advice wasn't required after all!
RE: Accepting then declining
"There is no contract and it says that the company or I can end the employment relationship at any time for any or no reason."
While I'm not sure what "it" refers to, the agreement was at-will anyways. The OP and company could sign the contract with a notary and TV cameras as witnesses, have a huge black-tie signing ceremony, and it wouldn't matter if he woke up the next morning and quit. I have never really been a fan of "at-will" clause in most engineering employement. However, typically the hiring company is writing the contract, and if they put it in there, it's fair game. It's not sleazy, rude, unethical, etc.
It's not a "loophole" or working around the "rules". The company wrote the rules, explicitly allowing certain behaviors. If the other "player" uses methods allowed by those rules, what is wrong with that?
-- MechEng2005
RE: Accepting then declining
So the issue is really whether the OP gave his word, or promise, to the employer, and whether it's "wrong," whatever that means to whomever, to repudiate his response.
There are those that say that companies are not honorable to their employees, and therefore the OP need not be honorable to them; I'm not going to debate whether companies are that way or not. People need to adhere to a higher standard, though.
Do you want your children to behave that way?
Do you want a reputation for behaving that way?
I'm frankly very disappointed in the attitude of, "Well, they'd screw me in a heartbeat, so I'm justified in screwing them, in advance." Is that the moral lesson one teaches their children?
Are we to become a society of backstabbing liars because other people MIGHT do that to us? Odd to think that some of those in that camp might be ostensibly otherwise pious/religious people who might espouse something about loving thy neighbot, and turning one's cheek.
Others, of course, are ostensibly ethically bound by their professional engineer's licenses and oaths, including those that think that all engineers should be PEs. Is that the behavior that a PE should aspire to? Is that how PEs are supposed to earn the respect of the public?
TTFN
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RE: Accepting then declining
1) I do not think I'd be upset if my children made the same decision I would make in their situation.
2) I will take my chances with have a reputation of disloyalty based on the above described situation before I follow a company around with puppy-dog eyes asking "How high?" when the company says "Jump."
3) It's not "screwing them." The prospective employer has not followed-up on their stated intentions in a reasonable amount of time. Regardless of if walking away after agreeing to verbal statements of intent is disloyal or not, I find it disrespectful (to say the least) to indicate an intent to provide a firm offer and then not follow up within 3 months. If I were an employer, and would be "screwed" if I wasn't able to hire a certain individual, I would certainly make more of an effort.
4) "Are we going to become a society of backstabbing liars because other people MIGHT do that to us?" I hope not. However, I will teach my children not to blindly get into a strangers car or go into their home based on what that stranger MIGHT do to them. If my choice to try to protect my children or myself is the downfall of society, well, I will go with the excuse that I was influenced by that same society in my choices.
I do not think that it is wrong if somebody else sees the situation differently or has a different opinion. I think there is room for intelligent, good, loyal people on both sides of this issue. I continue discussing because I feel strongly and I participate in the forums because I enjoy an open discussion of ideas and opinions.
-- MechEng2005
RE: Accepting then declining
Seems to me that the "situation" isn't even that clear cut, since the OP apparently didn't bother to follow up either.
TTFN
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RE: Accepting then declining
RE: Accepting then declining
If the business reason for the job position disappears, the firm making the 1st offer can and likely will cancel the offer and give the OP NO COMPENSATION to the prospective candidate. You may consider that harsh and ungenteel, but it's business reality. Given this fact, a firm cannot expect someone who has accepted an offer of employment to treat this offer as if it were a contract, nor can they expect compensation from the candidate who accepted and then withdrew their acceptance, for the cost of going back to the marketplace to find another candidate.
Do I feel that my first employer dealt with me shabbily? Yes, but they could have been worse still and simply withdrawn the position entirely, leaving me far worse off. Would I do the same to a prospective employee? I don't know how willing I'd be to take a pay cut to pay the salary of an unemployed and now-unnecessary employee simply because some months earlier the firm had agreed to hire him or her. Now if this person had left gainful employ elsewhere to take this offered position, there might be a legal case for compensation- I don't know, you'd need to consult a lawyer on that one.
Frankly I consider myself to be at fault as well: I was young and naive and had an idealistic and inaccurate view of the employer/employee relationship and the nature of an agreement.
If candidates and firms want to have contractual rights, money has to change hands to generate a cost to either party of withdrawing from the agreement. Only then can it be considered a contract. Not only does that make legal sense to me, it makes ethical sense as well.
Frankly I share MechEng2005's opinion. I get quite sick of being preached to by people who seem to think that the ethical responsibilities of a professional engineer require them to allow their employers to treat them as doormats, or to treat the employer/employee business relationship as anything other than what it is. Frankly it's this point of view that has done much damage to the position of the engineering profession relative to that of other professions over the years in my estimation. There is a HUGE difference between holding the public safety as paramount even if that means losing your job, and withdrawing from a non-contractual business agreement later found to be unsatisfactory. One of the ethical obligations of a professional engineer is to openly take just compensation for their work, and to uphold the principle of fair compensation for engineering work, and that responsibility is one that I see far too many professional engineers taking less than seriously.
RE: Accepting then declining
From the employer side, I have made offers to engineers and construction managers, which were accepted. Subsquently, the talented young prospects were offered higher salary. If I can't get these people the salary they obviously deserve, then it is my problem, not theirs. No hard feelings, get it while you can, and if things don't work out, keep me in mind. Burning bridges goes two ways, and people don't eat in the long run.
RE: Accepting then declining
For real though, fight for what you deserve. No one else will.
Fe
RE: Accepting then declining
Fe
RE: Accepting then declining
To me, it seems that they may be waiting on a project to be awarded, or to start. Neither of which are good guarantees when you may start.
RE: Accepting then declining
RE: Accepting then declining
Just out of curiosity, what was the reaction of company 1 when you retracted your acceptance?