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Accepting then declining
3

Accepting then declining

Accepting then declining

(OP)
Is it ethical to accept an offer then decline at a later date.  I feel that the company has not done their part to help me, i was made an offer at the first of January and I'm not one month from graduation and still have no start date, but i just got another offer thats even better.  Is it wrong to back out now?  There is no contract and it says that the company or I can end the employment relationship at any time for any or no reason.

RE: Accepting then declining

well I verbally accepted an offer once then got another two days later (which was a friday before I was due to start the first job on the monday) and then called declined (told them I wouldn't be coming)to the first one and took the second. Points to note in my case, job one wasn't permanent (contract) and there was a chance the office was relocating (which it did about 100 miles less than a year later). So I was glad I did it. 1) Ethically ok cause they could get rid of me after a week if they wanted. 2) Is it polite? Probably not but see point 1.  

RE: Accepting then declining

3
Fresh out of school I took the " a deal's a deal" route.  Got an offer three days later for 13% more money, but declined based on the fact that I'd already accepted an offer from someone else.

Took my post-grad holiday, paid first and last month's rent on an apartment, moved in, and went to see my new boss.  He said, "Hi, welcome to XXX- your pay's been cut by 5%".  I'd rejected an offer 4% lower from them previously in negotiation.

Firm #2 had long ago moved on and hired someone else.

So there I was- rewarded for my "ethics" by 18% less pay than I could have been making, and 1% less than an offer I had already rejected.

Remember that this is just business and a job offer is just that- an offer.  You can accept it-  so you have an offer and acceptance.  But since no money or other "compensation" changes hands, this does NOT CONSTITUTE A CONTRACT.

Work where you feel you'll do best- for them AND for you.  Forget about which offer comes in first.  Good luck to you!

RE: Accepting then declining

Don't expect them to be happy about it, but
"Employment At Will" works both ways.


Most American companies don't set the ethical bar very high in their dealings with customers, suppliers, government, or competitors.
In their dealings with employees, they set the ethical bar below the frost line.



 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Accepting then declining

You haven't "accepted" until you have returned a signed and dated form or letter of acceptance.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Accepting then declining

Your on the wrong end of your career to worry about loyalty. Even if you're a really loyal guy, they have nothing invested in you.

Take a cue from Toucan Sam and follow your nose.

RE: Accepting then declining

You have made no contract as of yet.  They will understand if you take the higher paying job.  Thank them and be polite about it.  Also be honest about why you are taking a different job.  They might even offer you more money to stay with them.

RE: Accepting then declining

My example was interviewing after working at my first job for 1 year.  The structural offered me the job basically right after the interview.  I accepted.  I got back to the office and the owner sat me down with another close person to me in the company and talked me out of taking the job after 4 hours.  When I told the company no, they were pretty mad.

I did this again at the next job I took.  I accepted and was talked out of it, with a large raise and yada yada.  That company was not so happy either.

You will burn your bridges, as the engineering community is smaller than it appears, but do what is best for yourself.  Always remember though if you have any form of ambition in this profession you will meet these people again.

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com
http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog

RE: Accepting then declining

Do you think "they" will feel "sad" when they lay you off?!! Business is business, it cuts both ways.

RE: Accepting then declining

In other forums engineers have bemoaned the lack of status and dwindling economic rewards going to engineers. I don't know whether this would be considered "loyalty" or "business sense". If you have an opportunity to advance your financial position in an area you may enjoy, go for it.
If a sense of loyalty is a constraint, consider doing charity work in your spare time. Get what you can going in the door, it might not be avalable later. I've been in the same position, including coming out of school. Even with a contract, you never know whether a company is going to force you to hire a lawyer to enforce the contract, or whether you will be in the next round of layoffs. I've been in those places before, too. Get it while you can.

RE: Accepting then declining

I agree with mauricestoker - you are entering into the real world, which you are entitled to get the best financial start from.  The company made an offer, no formal contract signed, hence you are free to chose where you would like to go.  At the moment you probably lack the experience factor and do not have much bargaining power - so go get the best offer you can, and start from as good a starting point as possible.  The bargaining power will come later if things are not good.

RE: Accepting then declining

Part of your answer will depend on whether you think you might ever have to look for a job with them in the future.  While companies don't necessarily hold grudges, people sometimes do.

And although I wouldn't necessarily push you into keeping your apparent commitment to them, it's something to consider, particularly if the job neighborhood is small.  It might not take much to build up a reputation as a fickle, flighty person.
 

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Accepting then declining

I agree with GregLocock.  Either your word is your bond or not.   

Sometimes you will "lose" money on a job or leave money on the table. Oh well......

  
  

Clifford H Laubstein
FL PE 58662

RE: Accepting then declining

Your word is your bond? A verbal contract is not worth the paper it is written on. If you live in fear of what may happen, then you are in the wrong business, perhaps you should look into a daycare career.

RE: Accepting then declining

Without a written contract nothing is legally binding, that is for sure.

Personally I try to live my life along the lines of treating others as I would want them to treat me, that does not make me the most successful of business man but I sleep well at night.

Again personally I hope you turn down the first offer and then the second company contacts you and says actually we have found someone who will work for less so our offer no longer stands.

People who behave in this way deserve to meet others who act in the same way be they employers or employees, only then might they start to realise that there is a better way.
 

RE: Accepting then declining

I don't know about the USA, but in Australia, a verbal contract is technically a legally binding contract, however it is only as enforceable as the evidence you have to enforce.

Diary notes, confirmation letters and especially reliable witnesses are very useful. Under Australian law a dispute would be heard by a judge who would decide on balance of probabilities.

Don't ask me how I know.

I may be old fashioned or naive, but I think your word is your bond, however wherever possible back it up with some documentation signed by both parties or copied to third parties.

 

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
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RE: Accepting then declining

Are you sure about that Pat?

I know Australian law is very much based on English law and here in England verbal contracts are legally binding, but notoriously hard to prove, however there are exceptions and employment contracts and property transfer are two of those.
 

RE: Accepting then declining

If someone offered n\me a job, verbally, and read out the full contract, and asked if I accepted, then that is one thing.

If someone says "so do you want the job" without me seeing the paperwork, that is another thing entirely.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Accepting then declining

I agree.

There is a grey area between a serious expression of interest and a firm commitment.

Before it is a firm commitment basic details like salary and conditions and starting date must be agreed.

My verbal contract was over contract employment, not salaried so that might be different. It never came to a head, I just felt a need to get advice at the time.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
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RE: Accepting then declining

A contract need not be written down to be binding, but a contract is NOT a contract without "consideration"- something of real and unambiguous value, agreed to by both parties, which changes hands.  A handshake or signature on a piece of paper alone does not make a contract.

A job offer is NOT a contract, even if accepted, and even if both parties agree to it in writing.  If they pay you a signing bonus, or relocation fees, then that's a different matter.

RE: Accepting then declining

With no start date given, the OP does not actually have a firm offer from the first company. While I would suggest giveing the hiring manager (not HR) a call first to see if you can get a start date etc or just to let him know what your intent is, I do not see any problem with taking a better offer given the cirumstances as given. Do give the hiring manager a call, he may be not aware that HR has dropped the ball (no start date one month from graduation, that is dropping the ball to me).

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: Accepting then declining

Let me see if I understand the issue:

-In January, a company made you a job offer without details, namely start date which you verbally accepted;
-4 months later, you don't have yet any start date or more details;
-Meanwhile, you got another offer which is better.

I have some questions:
-Do you keep in touch with your company #1? How do you know that they are still interested on you? How do you know that there wasn't any hiring freeze come into force? How do you know that meanwhile they already found another guy to your position and "forgot" to let you know, just to keep you hanging and just in case their first choice blew it?

After you answer those questions, you will find the solution for your problem.

 

RE: Accepting then declining

Not exact you case but draw your conclusions:
-I'm expatriate in SouthEast Asia for 8 years. 3 or 4 years ago, I saw an advertisement from a headhunter with a job position for my country that matched exactly my skills and experience. I applied, and coincidently, I was going back for holidays during the interviewing process. I went to 2 interviews with the headhunter, which were quite sucessful and then the last interview with the general manager of the company which I felt quite sucessful also. There was some negotiation over salary and benefits, but everything seemed to move in the right direction. I had to make a several long trips (around 1000Km) to visit family, so I was waiting for a decision from them.
I called the headhunter several times, explaining that I was on holidays and had to make some trips,that I was waiting for some asnwers to know if I had to go for the final meeting. They always said that the company was really impressed with me, that they were interested, and blablabla...After the 3rd call to them, I just went on with my life and continue my holidays. After a week or so, they called me saying that after all they chose another guy since the beginning and in the end they confessed that they were just waiting him to sign the contract to tell me so. So they hanged me there with smooth talk just in case the other guy didn't accept or they find out that he just a psycopathic assassin.
Well, in the end this didn't go bad for me. I continue expatriate but my salary increased around 30% since.

RE: Accepting then declining

A check of EECardinal's profile reveals he has logged in once, on 12 April.
I guess our advice wasn't required after all!

RE: Accepting then declining

Regardless of if a verbal contract is binding or not, the OP stated:

"There is no contract and it says that the company or I can end the employment relationship at any time for any or no reason."

While I'm not sure what "it" refers to, the agreement was at-will anyways. The OP and company could sign the contract with a notary and TV cameras as witnesses, have a huge black-tie signing ceremony, and it wouldn't matter if he woke up the next morning and quit. I have never really been a fan of "at-will" clause in most engineering employement. However, typically the hiring company is writing the contract, and if they put it in there, it's fair game. It's not sleazy, rude, unethical, etc.

It's not a "loophole" or working around the "rules". The company wrote the rules, explicitly allowing certain behaviors. If the other "player" uses methods allowed by those rules, what is wrong with that?

-- MechEng2005

RE: Accepting then declining

The OP's question was, "Is it WRONG? (my emphasis)"

So the issue is really whether the OP gave his word, or promise, to the employer, and whether it's "wrong," whatever that means to whomever, to repudiate his response.

There are those that say that companies are not honorable to their employees, and therefore the OP need not be honorable to them; I'm not going to debate whether companies are that way or not.  People need to adhere to a higher standard, though.  

Do you want your children to behave that way?

Do you want a reputation for behaving that way?

I'm frankly very disappointed in the attitude of, "Well, they'd screw me in a heartbeat, so I'm justified in screwing them, in advance."  Is that the moral lesson one teaches their children?  

Are we to become a society of backstabbing liars because other people MIGHT do that to us?  Odd to think that some of those in that camp might be ostensibly otherwise pious/religious people who might espouse something about loving thy neighbot, and turning one's cheek.  

Others, of course, are ostensibly ethically bound by their professional engineer's licenses and oaths, including those that think that all engineers should be PEs.  Is that the behavior that a PE should aspire to?  Is that how PEs are supposed to earn the respect of the public?

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Accepting then declining

In response to IRstuff:

1) I do not think I'd be upset if my children made the same decision I would make in their situation.

2) I will take my chances with have a reputation of disloyalty based on the above described situation before I follow a company around with puppy-dog eyes asking "How high?" when the company says "Jump."

3) It's not "screwing them." The prospective employer has not followed-up on their stated intentions in a reasonable amount of time. Regardless of if walking away after agreeing to verbal statements of intent is disloyal or not, I find it disrespectful (to say the least) to indicate an intent to provide a firm offer and then not follow up within 3 months. If I were an employer, and would be "screwed" if I wasn't able to hire a certain individual, I would certainly make more of an effort.

4) "Are we going to become a society of backstabbing liars because other people MIGHT do that to us?" I hope not. However, I will teach my children not to blindly get into a strangers car or go into their home based on what that stranger MIGHT do to them. If my choice to try to protect my children or myself is the downfall of society, well, I will go with the excuse that I was influenced by that same society in my choices.


I do not think that it is wrong if somebody else sees the situation differently or has a different opinion. I think there is room for intelligent, good, loyal people on both sides of this issue. I continue discussing because I feel strongly and I participate in the forums because I enjoy an open discussion of ideas and opinions.

-- MechEng2005

 

RE: Accepting then declining

The OP hasn't posted squat since day one, so I have no idea what the actual "situation" is, and I don't know whether the OP is imsply trying to rationalize his desire to bail for a higher salary.  

Seems to me that the "situation" isn't even that clear cut, since the OP apparently didn't bother to follow up either.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Accepting then declining

(OP)
For those that think I don't check this...I have read every single post promptly after I received the notification in my email inbox.  You need not login to read.  All the advice and insight has been taken into consideration and I made a decision to go with company 2.  Company 1 called me 4/21 to tell me that I still had no start date or location so I informed them of my decision to take the other offer, wrote a letter retracting my acceptance of the position.  Company 2 gave me a start date 2 days after graduation in my hometown for more money.  Money wasn't really the biggest issue but the certainty of a start date and location was.  All the advice and insight is greatly appreciated, i'm glad so many responded.  THANKS!!!!

RE: Accepting then declining

IRStuff:  what I've advocated is that the OP determine which job is better for them AND for the prospective employer, based on their own values, and leave the issue of which offer came in first aside from the discussion.  I cannot decide for someone which is more important:  their interest in the type of work, the pay, other benefits, the opportunity for growth or advancement, or their feeling of duty or honour in making an agreement- each person values these things differently.

If the business reason for the job position disappears, the firm making the 1st offer can and likely will cancel the offer and give the OP NO COMPENSATION to the prospective candidate.  You may consider that harsh and ungenteel, but it's business reality.  Given this fact, a firm cannot expect someone who has accepted an offer of employment to treat this offer as if it were a contract, nor can they expect compensation from the candidate who accepted and then withdrew their acceptance, for the cost of going back to the marketplace to find another candidate.

Do I feel that my first employer dealt with me shabbily?  Yes, but they could have been worse still and simply withdrawn the position entirely, leaving me far worse off.  Would I do the same to a prospective employee?  I don't know how willing I'd be to take a pay cut to pay the salary of an unemployed and now-unnecessary employee simply because some months earlier the firm had agreed to hire him or her.  Now if this person had left gainful employ elsewhere to take this offered position, there might be a legal case for compensation- I don't know, you'd need to consult a lawyer on that one.    

Frankly I consider myself to be at fault as well:  I was young and naive and had an idealistic and inaccurate view of the employer/employee relationship and the nature of an agreement.

If candidates and firms want to have contractual rights, money has to change hands to generate a cost to either party of withdrawing from the agreement.  Only then can it be considered a contract.  Not only does that make legal sense to me, it makes ethical sense as well.

Frankly I share MechEng2005's opinion.  I get quite sick of being preached to by people who seem to think that the ethical responsibilities of a professional engineer require them to allow their employers to treat them as doormats, or to treat the employer/employee business relationship as anything other than what it is.  Frankly it's this point of view that has done much damage to the position of the engineering profession relative to that of other professions over the years in my estimation. There is a HUGE difference between holding the public safety as paramount even if that means losing your job, and withdrawing from a non-contractual business agreement later found to be unsatisfactory. One of the ethical obligations of a professional engineer is to openly take just compensation for their work, and to uphold the principle of fair compensation for engineering work, and that responsibility is one that I see far too many professional engineers taking less than seriously.

RE: Accepting then declining

That would be worth two stars.

From the employer side, I have made offers to engineers and construction managers, which were accepted. Subsquently, the talented young prospects were offered higher salary. If I can't get these people the salary they obviously deserve, then it is my problem, not theirs. No hard feelings, get it while you can, and if things don't work out, keep me in mind. Burning bridges goes two ways, and people don't eat in the long run.

RE: Accepting then declining

Yes. Lets start a revolution. Everyone getting paid under 80 grand quite right now. pipe
For real though, fight for what you deserve. No one else will.
 

peace
Fe

RE: Accepting then declining

quit*******************************************

peace
Fe

RE: Accepting then declining

Good choices EE.  I was going to post about the certainty of a start date.  It is not like company 1 would be paying you a retainer not to take another job while they figure out if they need you to work or not.

To me, it seems that they may be waiting on a project to be awarded, or to start.  Neither of which are good guarantees when you may start.

RE: Accepting then declining

No one else is going to watch your back.  Take the offer that is best for your long term goals.

RE: Accepting then declining

EECardinal:

Just out of curiosity, what was the reaction of company 1 when you retracted your acceptance?

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