Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
(OP)
I have an interesting problem as follows:
Submersible pump 185KW.
400V 50Hz controlled by a soft starter.
MEN supply. Star connected transformer secondary dedicated to this application with the neutral earthed.
12 inch bore, 10 inch pump, 125 Meters deep.
Earth cable from pump is attached to the well casing at the top of the well.
If the earth cable is not attached to the well casing, there is 15Amp AC between the well casing and the earth cable to the pump motor. If the earth is connected, 90 Amps flows between the motor earth and the well casing.
If the motor stops, no voltage and no current.
Any thoughts?
Best regards,
Submersible pump 185KW.
400V 50Hz controlled by a soft starter.
MEN supply. Star connected transformer secondary dedicated to this application with the neutral earthed.
12 inch bore, 10 inch pump, 125 Meters deep.
Earth cable from pump is attached to the well casing at the top of the well.
If the earth cable is not attached to the well casing, there is 15Amp AC between the well casing and the earth cable to the pump motor. If the earth is connected, 90 Amps flows between the motor earth and the well casing.
If the motor stops, no voltage and no current.
Any thoughts?
Best regards,
Mark Empson
L M Photonics Ltd





RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
Check this statement.
It isn't making logical sense to me.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
Yes, you are correct. Should read 15 VAC.
Thanks,
Mark
Mark Empson
L M Photonics Ltd
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
The other possibility is a failing pump or cable.
Does the ground cable carry back to the control panel or does it end at the surface of the casing?
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
Another interesting piece of data would be to check the balance among phase currents in both conditions (with ground connected and without).
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
Just imagine the pump casing is grounded solidly at bottom. Now you add a solid ground at top and you have a loop where high current can flow with relatively low voltage.
If this is the case, than 15vac is not a floating measurmeent but a measure of voltage induced along the length fo the column from the grounded end (bottom) to the open end (top). That seems a little high. But I guess long runs of cable maybe can create lond induced voltages. I started trying to think about how to calculate that for simple geometry such as cable located a distance d from a plane...didn't get very far. Maybe tonight.
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
The current flows around the loop between the pump and the casing via the earth wire. If the earth from the switchboard is removed, the current still flows. It is not coming from the switchboard earth.
It appears to be an induced current rather than a leakage current.
I had three phone calls in the same week about similar problems, I have not found this before, but in one case, the earthwire is nearly burning off the crimp lug.
Best regards,
Mark Empson
L M Photonics Ltd
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
Where Xig=k*ln(disti_g/re) disti_g =distance from center line of the two wires and re it is
the equivalent stranded wire radius =radius*.7788.For SI u/m k=4*pi()*frq/10^7 H/m = 6.28E-05.
Let us say conductor A is a diameter opposite to G and B and C are as close as possible to G.
The maximum distance between two conductors within a pipe of 10" could be 220 mm if the cables are of 240 sqr.mm cross section , 20.6 mm dia copper and 30 mm overall dia of cable.
The maximum Xig=k*ln(220/8.02) *length[m].If the length could be 185 m Xigmax= 0.038598 ohm.Xigmin=k*ln(30/8.02)*185= 0.015333 ohm.
If we shall take pf=0.8 and eff.=0.9 the rated current will be 642.4 A.
Then IARE=513.9 A and IAIM=385.4 A ; IBRE= 76.8 A and IBIM= -637.7A;ICRE= -590.7A ICIM=252.3A.Calculated Ere=-IAIM*Xigmax-(IBIM+ICIM)*Xigmin=-8.97 V; Eim=IARE*Xigmax+(IBRE+ICRE)*Xigmin= 11.96 V Etot=sqrt(Ere^2+Eim^2)= 14.94 V.
Could be?
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
A suggestion. The cable is probably a twisted four, "A", "B", "C", and Ground. The ground will be nested between "A" and "C" and spaced from "B". The currents in "A" and "C" should equal the current in "B". Try your calcs with "B" phase current, but "A" and "C" phase spacing to the ground. I would use 300 Amps as a representative current.
Not exact but this should get us in the ball park to see if induction is reasonable.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
Even if it's not triplexed cable, it has a vague resemblance to a donut CT which responds to sum of currents without much dependence on position. 7anoter4 has begun the math... I have to think about that.
Do you have details of the cable type?
Do you know the material (steel or something else) and wall thickness of the pump column?
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
I believe that the voltage is being induced in the ground conductor by "A" and "C" phases.
Then again it may be a poor connection in the primary system. The well casing may be passing neutral current from an unbalanced primary. It could happen in a rural installation.
Are the other problem wells in the same area?
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
A, B, C, Ground conductors are each 0.6" diameter solid copper conductors. They are located in square arrangement 1.2" center-to-center distance. These conductors are centered within a 5000" long cylindrical iron pipe with I.D. 10.2" and O.D. 10.8" (*). Geometry is shown on slide 1 of attached powerpoint.
Current is applied in the three phase conductors is 3-phase 200A 50HZ. (IA = 200, IB =-100 + 173*I, IC =-100 - 173*I)
With ground conductor is perfectly shorted to the pipe at each end, the flux solution is on slide 2, circulating current in groundwire and pipe is approx 18A (slides 3 and 4) and induced voltage is approx 0.3 vac (slide 5)
With ground conductor open (not connected at each end) as per slide 6, there is no circulating current and induced voltage is 0.5vac in the groundwire and 0.1 vac in the pipe.
I would be glad to post the F.E.M.M files if anyone is interested. It is a pretty easy to use program that you can get for free. Of course, standard caveats apply to my analysis (garbage in gives garbage out... results require sanity check)... just providing a model for consideration.
(*) My thought was that if the conductors are placed symmetrically within the center of the pipe, I can get away without modeling the twist since at any given plane (elevation) of the solution, rotating everything changes nothing. If it is not the case that conductors are symmetrically located in the center of the pipe, then modeling of twist is required.... far beyond my capabilities.
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
Ignore the casing. The cable twist will cancel most of the induction and as I mentioned, not that much flux gets to the casing compared to flux influencing the ground wire.
Can you easily plug these numbers into your equation?
Thanks.
Yours
Bill
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
Should have been:
Attached is another powerpoint with results of center-to-center distance reduced to 0.75" (that leaves 0.075" for insulation).
The short circuit result (slide 1) is |I| = |15.273 + j*7.339| = 16.94A.
(contrast to previous open circuit result: |I| = |115.506 + j* 9.26| = 18.06A).
The end-to-end voltage in short-circuited configuration on slide 2 as previously discussed... not much significance.
The open circuit results:
Slide 3: |Vgroundwire| = | | = 0.488608+0.2396i = 0.544 vac
Slide 4: |Vpipe| = -3.42E-003+1.95E-002i = 0.019 vac
Total Open Circuit Voltage = |Vgroundwire – Vpipe| = |0.492028+0.2201i| = 0.539 vac
(contrast to previous open cricuit result |V| = 0.49 vac
So moving the wires closer together did not significantly change the results, and in fact slightly reduced the open circuit voltage and short circuit current.... opposite the direction of effect needed to try to recreate the measured results of approx 90A short circuit and 15vac open circuit.
I think the next logical step would be to try moving the bundle of 4 conductors close to the edge and repeating the calculation. Since twist is not modeled, the resulting induced Voc and Isc will clearly be higher than if the twist were included. But it is still a useful excercize.... if the result is that the calculated Voc and Isc with twist neglected remain far less than measured, we might begin to conclude that induced voltage of this magnitude is not credible. If on the other hand, we exceed the measured values, then we need to sharpen our pencil on modeling the twist.
I just saw thewellguy's post... I can change the model to put the wires outside. Mark - do you know the configuration.
In either case, I think waross hit on an important subtle point that it certainly took me awhile to figure out... the location of the groundwire within the 4-wire twist is not symmetric with respect to all three phases and therefore there is an induced voltage. LPS for you.
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
The well casing of 10 inches in diameter and the pump discharge piping. The pump discharge piping may or may not be ferrous and if conductive may or may not have an insulating coupling installed.
Mark;
Are you able to check the current on the three phase conductors with the grounding conductor connected and disconnected from the well casing?
A four trace scope check will be interesting if possible.
I wonder if there is a bad batch of submersible cable out there. It should show up on a megger check though.
Are there any large users or producers of electricity nearby?
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
The magnetic vector potential solution for the sinusoidal time varying system is a complex number containing magnitude and phase information at each point in 2-D space. We have to choose real or imaginary component of vector magnetic potential for plotting the flux lines. The component I plotted was the real portion. That represents flux lines for the component of flux that is in-phase with the real component of current which happens to be phase A here. (You can confirm in my previous plots that the plotted flux lines tend to encircle A phase conductor which is the upper left of the four conductors.). But the next time I do that plot, I am going to swap A and B phase locations so that A is in the upper right hand corner (diagonally opposite ground conductor located on the lower left). Then when flux lines are plotted as above (the real portion of magnetic vector potential), the flux lines will still encircle A... but then I'll bet those flux lines will also tend to encircle the ground wire even in the open-circuit condition. These [time-varying] flux lines encircling the ground wire will be the flux that induces the voltage in the ground wire. I'll post that plot tonight.
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
The riser (from the pump) is also ferrous and would be around 8 inch diameter.
The cables are not twisted as there is not room, but are spaced around the casing as much as is possible.
The gap between the outer casing and the riser will vary considerably over the length, but there are periodic spacers between the riser and casing. - these things are never perfectly straight.
It is possible that the pump and or riser are in contact with the casing at one or more places on the way up.
Pete, your calcs and simulations confirm my expectation that there is more than just coupling between the cables as the induced power is much higher than your calcs suggest.
One idea that I have, is that if the motor is hard up against the outer casing then there will be a magnetic field conducted to the casing which will be predominantly from a single phase. this field will then be carried by the casing to the top or part way up where there is physical contact between the riser and the casing providing a return path for the flux.
This can act as the core of a transformer. If there is any rotation of the conductors around the riser on the way up, there will be a voltage induced.
Is this a valid theory?
How to fix?
Best regards,
Mark Empson
L M Photonics Ltd
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
Is there one or more ground electrode at the panel?
A couple of easy tests;
Ram a rod or large screw driver into the earth 5 or 10 feet away from the casing. Check the open circuit voltage between the screwdriver and the casing and the ground conductor. This may indicate whether the voltage is being induced in the ground casing, the grounding conductor or both.
It may also just confuse us. Grin.
Bill
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"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
If I were goint to try to arrange a setup that would create a large voltage between Groundwire and outer casing, I would want a lot of flux flowing circumferentially between groundwire and outer casing. So I would try putting conductors in the following locations:
A – 6:00 position adjacent to outer cylinder (casing)
G - 6:00 position adjacent to inner cylinder (riser)
B – 4:00 position adjacent to inner cylinder
C – 8:00 position adjacent to inner cylinder.
I will try simulating that configuration tonight to see how high voltage it creates. I'm making an assumption that the inner/outer rings and groundwire are connected at bottom but not at the top in the open circuit configuration.
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
This is why I asked earlier if anything was ground to the well casing from the building or other source.
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
The current is confined to within the well system.
There is a very small current (<1A) flowing between the well casing and the switchboard earth, so it is definitely the circuit down the hole.
Best regards,
Mark Empson
L M Photonics Ltd
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
Attached is results of several trials in the order I tried them. The bottom line is that the results shown in last 3 slides show 10vac induced with 200A, so I guess we could get 15vac with 300A.
The "worst case" locations for conductors was nothing like I thought it would be (my first attempt shown in first few slides). The results are a little beyond my understanding or intuition and I got to the final geometry more or less by trial and error.....there may certainly be worse geometries I didn't find. One thing I noticed is the flux pattern within iron looks strange when iron is not laminated. I tried out laminated iron a few places and flux pattern is more what I expect.... also the induced voltages higher but certainly laminations are not representative of pipe. (The final results were not laminated.
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
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RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps
The stupid answer is to just change the casing to a larger casing so that there is room to twist the conductors.
This is not an option for an existing installation, but time will tell.
Based on this experience, there may be justifications for demanding sufficient space for twisted conductors in future installations.
My thoughts and recommendations, subject to other suggestions;
1> The excess current results from voltages induced in the grounding conductor. These voltages are unacceptably high due to the unsymmetrical spacing of the individual conductors.
2> I am concerned that these currents may cause accelerated corrosion of the pump and casing. To that end I propose abandoning the grounding conductor.
3> Grounding; Grounding is primarily for personal safety and secondarily for the proper operation of protective devices. The Canadian Code allows protection by physical separation such as barricades or elevation in leu of grounding. submersible pump is certainly not a hazard to persons, nor is it a fire hazard. It does not need a ground conductor for safety.
4> More grounding. I would ground the casing to the panel and ground the discharge piping to the casing. The point is that any thing and everything that may be touched by a person standing on the ground or any two things that may be touched simultaneously MUST be bonded to ground.
5> If bonding everything at the surface after the abandonment of the downhole grounding conductor results in any objectional currents we may investigate the option of protection by barriers. An insulating coupling in the discharge piping near the surface may be indicated.
6> Should the pump fail due to corrosion, the conductors MUST be twisted in the replacement installation.
7> You mentioned other pump problems in the area, Mark. Are these similar installations with random spaced conductors?
Yours
Bill
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Earth Currents with Submersible Pumps