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Boss lied
12

Boss lied

Boss lied

(OP)
I just recently learned that my employer doubled billed a client.  The client paid the bill and it was over $25,000.  We discovered it after we had already deposited the check.   My boss told me that the company could not pay it back because we simply do not have the money in our account at this time.

That was 18 months ago, the company just now told the client and cleared up the matter with them.  It was a public project that they knew would be audited and were afraid the client would find out.  I have lost all respect for my boss and he lied to client about when they discovered the error.  I don't want this to hurt my career or reputation but what do you do?  Changing jobs is not an option since no one is hiring.  
 

RE: Boss lied

2
Bosses often have to do repugnant things.

The client has been made whole.

You have no proof that he was ever otherwise.

Pick a different battle to fight.
 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Boss lied

Did the boss actually double bill or did the client double pay? Most companies send an invoice and a statement and sometimes people will pay both the invoice and the statement instead of just the invoice.

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: Boss lied

Mike...well said.

UMRMST...my guess is that you work for a small business.  Cash flow is always a battle.  That overpayment probably allowed your boss to pay your salary.  He probably spent months trying to work his cash flow to the point that he could pay it back, all the time worrying about how he could keep payroll going as well.  It's a pretty good bet that your boss always intended to pay it back but had to do so on his time schedule, not theirs.  If they had demanded payment earlier than he was capable, it might have caused layoffs or worse.

RE: Boss lied

I have nothing to add to Mike's post except to say that you'll be well served to stop looking for things that don't concern you to be worried about.  If you were the one who found the double billing, your obligation stopped when you told you boss.

David

RE: Boss lied

UMRMST,

You say that you've lost respect for your boss and imply that you no longer want to work for him by mentioning changing jobs.  What's stopping you from simply quitting?  Could it be that you would find yourself in a negative cashflow situation?  If so, your situation might just parallel the situation your boss found himself in when the extra payment came in (wanting to make it right but not being able to afford it).

Yes, in an ideal world, the double payment would have been refunded immediately.  Big picture, the situation has by and large been resolved.  If you feel that strongly about what happened, move on when the opportunity presents itself.

RE: Boss lied

6
Wow, I can't believe what I am reading here.  You all think it is okay to keep your clients money for 18 months when they overpaid by $25,000.  Cash flow problem or not, it is not your money to keep.  It is funny how this post is in the "Professional Ethics in Engineering" forum and you apparently have none.  Maybe you all need to pick up a copy of your state statues and refresh what you have forgot.

My advice would be to get out when you can.  If your boss is willing to do this what else is he doing?
 

RE: Boss lied

If this was a public project I would guess it was funded by the State, County or City.  Most likely the client would not want it made public that they overpaid your firm and no one noticed for 18 months.  

I do agree with BRGENG that others think that this act is okay but I also agree with some of their comments that you did what you should have done.  I would get out of there as quick as possible.   

RE: Boss lied

JAE had this on another post that was taken from a State Rule/Law book.

"5.5.4 The architect or professional engineer shall not engage in conduct involving fraud or wanton disregard of the rights of others."

Lawyers would have to battle out if this is fraud or not but I doubt your boss would want this in front of a State Engineering Board.
 

RE: Boss lied

The discussion was not about what's "right".

The discussion was about what's "best".

Too rarely are they the same.






 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Boss lied

I have to say this time I am on the oposite side to several people whose morals and ethics (if not politics) I normaly agree with.

To my mind stealing is stealing and must be unethical.

Knowingly keeping someone elses money that they did not owe you is stealing plain and simple.

Many very well respected mostly ethical companies steal in one way or another at times and virtually all employees fail to notice or let it slide as not their responsibility.

You are in no position to judge the overall situation without knowing all details of agreements and past dealings.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
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for site rules
 

RE: Boss lied

BRGENG (and everyone else)

I would encourage you to review the meeting minutes of the state licensing board and see what kinds of things they investigate and what kinds of things they don't.

In Washington State, they do not get involved in tiffs between a company and a client. Everytime somebody files a complaint over billing or other money matters, they close the case without investigation saying the subject matter does not fall under the jursidction of the board.

Fraud over things related to engineering would be of significant interest to the board. For example, if an engineer did an onsite mechanical evaluation of a weld and forged the documents saying the weld was good when it wasn't would be of serious interest.

Matters relating to finance, billing, or contracts are of no interest to the board as the boad doesn't regulate those issues.

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: Boss lied

I'm on the fence, yep it is easy to say they should have paid the money back, however in my time, I have tried to pay money back in a situation like this and it can take up to 3 years.  You may be sitting there thinking how can this be? Well it all depends on the length of the project, if the project has timed finance dealings (not the right term but I think you get my drift) by contract (say a wind farm project running over four years) and let say they double paid without prompting, we often can't pay it back until the next dealing is due. They have these timed dealing so that money for extra's ect can be handled at once, because oftent they will be applying for extra money from the funding source and only wnat to do it once or twice. We do however pay it back including the interest gained but do change a handling fee.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that they like it

RE: Boss lied

(OP)
So people asked for additional information and I should have included this extra information.  This was the first bill in the project that the client overpaid.  After we discovered they overpaid the original amount we continue to bill them the remaining portion of the contract which was approximately $60,000.  

So after we billed them $25,000 they paid us $50,000 then we billed them another $60,000 which they paid in full.  Knowing this extra bit how do you feel?
 

RE: Boss lied

As said above, this really is an accounting issue rather than an engineering issue. I don't claim to understand accounting and I'm licensed only to dispense advice in areas that I understand. What I do understand is accounting rules are complicated and not straightforward.

What I do understand is you carefully rephrased it on how you described it this time. The original post was "the boss double billed the client" and the second post says "the client overpaid". The wording is very different among the two posts. The first indicates an intentionally sending out a invoice a second time to get money, the second way indicates the client screwed up.

I do know that mispresenting the facts is unethical and it sounds like the facts may have been mispresented in your original post. In that case, you may have done something unethical.

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: Boss lied

photoengineer smells a rat, and I tend to agree.  I just wonder, UMRMAST, how and when you found out about this.  Your original post said you recently found out, but now the time line seems different.  The whole thing may be due to company accounting practices.  In many consulting practices, the project engineer is involved in the invoicing, but not in the collections.  Invoices go out for the current work with no consideration of the status of payments.

RE: Boss lied

2
I do agree with the statement:

"Pick a different battle to fight."

But...seriously...for $25,000.00 (US / CDN or otherwise)...

I would have gone to the bank and drawn on a line of credit and paid the client back immediately.  Of course, if the company is in a state coincident with:

(1) Not enough resources to pay $25,000.00;
(2) Not enough cash flow to make payroll if they have to pay $25,000.00;
(3) Not enough credit to obtain $25,000.00 if they need it,

then it's probably time to leave.

There is no other correct answer.  A cheque for $25,000.00 to the client was due and payable within - at most - one business day of the error having been discovered.

I don't care what any applicable law says.

  

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Boss lied

The question is, when was the overpayment detected?
The way originally posted the client was double billed. It then seems the client was billed $25k and paid $50k.
They made a mistake.
Now, what was 18 motnths ago? 18 months agao it happened or 18 months ago it happened and wasn't corrected.
That doesn't sound right.
If the client bouble paid (rather than double billed) and the error was immediately detected then there should have been no problem repaying the amount.
However, it sounds liuke the problem wasn't discovered until some time later at which point there is a cash flow problem.
The next question is, when was the client aware of the double payment?
What discussions took place between the client and your boss?

So who discovered the problem?
The client or yor boss?

OK, last point, cash flow problems are not uncommon but one approach is to lay people off. So, the boss could lay people off but how many to pay the money back? Or he may discuss teh problem with the  client and reach an understanding.
What you haven't told us is how much you know of what went on between the parties.
I assume frrom your posts that you were not originally or officially in this discussion loop and infer you found out by chance.
I would suggest there is a chance you may not know the whole story? Let's not condemn the man without the full story.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Boss lied

I could easily see this happening if the accounting is bad in some way.  If the owner is involved in any way it's possible to overlook things like that.  I don't think an extra $25,000 in a bank account for any size company is that much money to draw a red flag.

Let me put it another way.  Trying to scam a government job would basically put you on some kind of blacklist.  There is no way intentionally taking money would get you repeat business and next your name will get dragged through the mud.

Over this direction a lot of people talk (between private and public), and people know what companies are shady.  If you really feel your boss did this purposely and you don't like their ethics and will cause you mental harm in some way, you should quit.

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com
http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog

RE: Boss lied

The details really don't matter here except to you.  Regardless of what we think, you're at a point where you feel your boss's integrity is lacking.  The solution is to find a different boss.  That may take some time, so in the meantime, get your professional life in order where you can change jobs when the opportunity arises.  It doesn't look like your boss is actually doing anything criminal, and if anyone has grounds to complain on the money deal, it'd be the customer, not you.

Something else to keep in mind is that it is easy to be missing some of the details on a case like this.  One 2-minute telephone conversation that you weren't aware of could make a 180 degree difference in how everyone views it.

RE: Boss lied

(OP)
It sounds like lawyers instead of Engineers on here.
Invoice #1 sent Jan 2008 for $25,000 – paid by client.
Invoice #1 sent again in Jan 2008 for $25,000 – paid again by client
Feb. 2008 my company noticed what had happened.  Over the next 12 months they billed an additional $60,000, all invoices paid by client.  Total paid was $110,000 contract was only for $85,000.
  
6 months after the project was closed out the company approached the client and told them they just now discovered the error although it was actually discovered 18 months earlier.

Okay, is that clear enough?

To answer your question, I found out immediately when it was discussed in a meeting and that is when the company said they could not pay it back.  Me and others did not agree with this decision and expressed our concerns but since we are employees and not the owner it was not our call.  However, we all know it is not the correct thing to do especially when you continue to bill on the project.  As to the question of not being able to pay, per the company we were having a record year so why couldn't we pay?  The question was asked but not answered.  
 

RE: Boss lied

Rapid growth even with good profit can create a temporary cash flow problem as costs to cover increased business comes in before the revenue from increased business.

When it is as cut and dried as your last post, why did you even need to ask here.

Unless there was an agreement you are not privy to or unless there is a getting even for past wrongs, the knowingly withholding the money was clearly unethical.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: Boss lied

Make sure when your resign it is after a pay check.  

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that they like it

RE: Boss lied

Double bill may have been a mistake.  I will give them that. Being found prior to additional billing, and continuing to bill?  That I have a problem with.

They should have notified the client, and worked out how to come out even on the contract.  At a minimum, they could have billed to 100% then said they found out they had over billed.

If the money is spent before the problem is realized, then there should be some latitude.  

Let's say your company overpaid you and you did not realize it because your wife picked up the check and put it in the bank.  You see there is finally enough down payment for that new car so you buy it.  Now you see the check stub and the over payment.  Do you sell the car to get money to pay them back, or work it out to have them hold back some over the next few checks?

RE: Boss lied

I can't find it in me to agree with anything here other than paying the client back *immediately* after the mistake is found, within one business day, period.

If I owned the company, I would have even slapped $25K onto my personal Visa or Amex (or whatever) to get the client his money, and then negotiated with my own creditors how to repay my own debt.

Anything other than that is wrong.  Sorry.

Turn it around...if you went out shopping for a TV or a car or even if you just paid a home heating bill, only to find that you had been overcharged by, say, double the value of the commodity, when would *you* want *your* money back?  How many of you would say, "Oh, that's OK, I don't mind waiting a year or two."?

Perhaps I am just opinionated.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Boss lied

I'm with Snorgy...

Even if it was discussed with the client, they should get the money back.  It wasn't yours to begin with, so give it back immediately.  If you spent it already, your accounting has issues as this should have been caught the moment the check came in... if you received money and can't match it up with a P.O., do you just deposit it and say "Meh, someone must owe me"?  Of course not.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Boss lied

The discussion seems to have drifted a bit.

No one disagrees that the owner or principal of the business >should< rectify any irregularities immediately.

The question is, when the owner/principal chooses to not do so, and to live on the float,,,,,  

what, then, is the wage slave employee to do?


 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Boss lied

In an ideal world?  Approach the boss with the issue and document it.  If the boss is unwilling to do anything, do the same with the client.  No one was in any immediate danger, so waiting 30 days or so to see if the problem was rectified is appropriate.  We all have a moral obligation to see wrongs righted.  Of course, we don't live in an ideal world, and there's a good chance this will put you at the head of the "people to let go during the next recession" list.

In the real world, unless there is the possibility of physical harm, the OP should mind his own bees wax.  If a (client's) business folds because they cannot keep a good handle on their accounting practices (such as double-paying), that's survival of the fittest.  If a (worker's) company folds because it routinely over-bills clients and people wise up, same survival rules.  If it's a case of fleecing the government or stockholders (who, unfortunately, either do NOT have good accounting practices or the accounting is obfuscated from the public eye, and therefore more than just the company is hurt financially), the wage-earner should follow the same rules as in the ideal world situation and hope the whistle-blower status applies to him.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Boss lied

I realize this is a cash flow thing.  This doesn't sound like a good way to run a business, on other people's money.

Under capitalism, weak companies will fail in the end.  Keep a fresh resume at least.

RE: Boss lied

The "other people's money" factor is how Tescos supermakets have risen to be a power in the market. BY late paying bills they were able to build a new supermarket every week.
Of course, in their situation it wasn't double billing a client but taking advantage of suppliers for whom it was "do business with us on our terms or ..... tough." I tink the term that actually entered the language is the "Other people's capital factor".
It was a lot cheaper than borrowing from the bank.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Boss lied

They probably should have added the intrest to the $25,000 that was made over the 18 months when they fixed the overpayment....  

RE: Boss lied

If this was for a public project than it will get audited eventually.  Your boss and company will get hammerd when that happens.  No doubt they will make the local news.  It could possibly become a political issue if this happens during election time.  The company will lose credibility and you will have to find a new job.  I think you did your due dilligence.  It is not your responisbility beyond that.  Accounts also have a code of ethics they are to follow as well.  You should start looking for other jobs.   

RE: Boss lied

Your boss may have took his time to pay back the overpayment but how many of his customers pay his invoices on time? My guess is less than a third. For many companies it takes over 3 months to get paid but they still need to pay wages and other overheads. In fact, cash flow is one the most common reasons why engineering companies go bust.

Chris
www.value-design-consulting.co.uk

RE: Boss lied

PatPrimmer ... you recently posted that (paraphrasing) "ethics cannot be taught to those who don't have them, and those that have them don't need to be taught".

Some of the responses in this post prove your point.

RE: Boss lied

This thread sparks a very interesting question to me, that not very many people have hit on.

Down on Wall Street the answer would be "keep the money until the client finds out."  Largely because bankers don't really have a code of professional ethics they're following like engineers, doctors, etc. do.  This all became very apparent towards the end of 2008, when our profession was wrecked by incongruities in their profession, and they got a government bailout for it while we got a pink slip.

So here's the interesting question .. do the codes of professional engineering ethics that we adhere to also apply to the financial aspects of the engineering business?  And if so, are we holding ourselves to a higher standard than our clients (developers) or our financiers (banks) hold themselves to?

I don't know the answers, but I'm interested to hear some responses.   

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Boss lied

beej67,
Might be worth a new thread.

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

RE: Boss lied

Heh, that might make me look like an instigator.  :)

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Boss lied

It doesn't matter what the topic is.

Ethics are ethics.

Money - the root of all evils, as they say - is, in my mind, the principal reason why "ethics" has a definition in business.

If we indeed do hold ourselves to a higher standard, my vote would be to continue to do so.  Why lower ourselves and attempt to rationalize it by resigning ourselves to the attitude in which we are satisfied by saying, "Well, we're no more crooked than any of the other professions, so it's all good."?

The neck-tie that I wear is not merely for the purpose of preventing the prepuce from sliding over my head, as might be the case with some others in other professions.
 

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Boss lied

Actually the correct quote is;
 The LOVE of money is the root of all evil.

RE: Boss lied

I've always lived by the policy of if you owe someone money than every dollar in your pocket is not your dollar.

RE: Boss lied

I dont know why he is asking for advice, he have it very clear but he is afraid of the decission he want to do.

 Quit but before of that, you should find another job. thats all.

RE: Boss lied

Quote: Let's say your company overpaid you and you did not realize it because your wife picked up the check and
put it in the bank.
You see there is finally enough down payment for that new car so you buy it.  
Now you see the check stub and the over payment.  
Do you sell the car to get money to pay them back, or work it out to have them hold back some over the next few checks?
One have to be really dumb not to notice that additional money, or a crook. Or check what's the wife doin'.
And yes, I sell the car that I bought with money that is not mine.

Quote: I don't think an extra $25,000 in a bank account for any size company is that much money to draw a red flag.
If I can't pay $25,000, I'll notice those additional $25,000 immediatey. If somehow I spent those additional $25,000 and can't pay. I would tell immediately.

RE: Boss lied

Quote: Let's say your company overpaid you and you did not realize it because your wife picked up the check and
put it in the bank.
You see there is finally enough down payment for that new car so you buy it.  
Now you see the check stub and the over payment.  
Do you sell the car to get money to pay them back, or work it out to have them hold back some over the next few checks?
One have to be really dumb not to notice that additional money, or a crook. Or check what's the wife doin'.
And yes, I sell the car that I bought with money that is not mine.

Quote: I don't think an extra $25,000 in a bank account for any size company is that much money to draw a red flag.
If I can't pay $25,000, I'll notice those additional $25,000 immediatey. If somehow I spent those additional $25,000 before I noticed and can't pay. I would tell my client immediately and work a solution.  

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