Corporate Espionage
Corporate Espionage
(OP)
Is it ethical to request one of your staff members to contact another engineering firm (in the same field)under the false pretenses that they are a "potential client" (not the firm they are working for) in an effort to collect their marketing material?
I can only assume their next step would be to request a proposal for a bogus project to evaluate my fee structures.
In this particular case, the individual contacted me via email and indicated they worked for a "local contractor" and had projects coming up and were looking for firms to present the owner. Could I send marketing material, brochures and company information to the following address? (Which turned out to be the individual's home address.)
In the current market, it all sounded a bit too good to be true. Thanks to the beauty of the internet, I was able to make the connection between the requester and the competing firm before any information was exchanged.
I can only assume their next step would be to request a proposal for a bogus project to evaluate my fee structures.
In this particular case, the individual contacted me via email and indicated they worked for a "local contractor" and had projects coming up and were looking for firms to present the owner. Could I send marketing material, brochures and company information to the following address? (Which turned out to be the individual's home address.)
In the current market, it all sounded a bit too good to be true. Thanks to the beauty of the internet, I was able to make the connection between the requester and the competing firm before any information was exchanged.





RE: Corporate Espionage
What do you do about it? Personally, I would just get the head man at the other office on the phone and let him know what you think of his tactics. Don't expect to be placed on his Christmas card list.
RE: Corporate Espionage
The problem with asking whether it is ethical is that we all don't subscribe to the same ethics, and ethics aren't bound by law.
So what you see as unethical may be perceived as perfectly ok by them.
I think the bottom line is you can choose who you do business with and which potential clients you respond to. I'd simply ignore the request rather than try to figure out if what they are doing fits your ethical values.
Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com
RE: Corporate Espionage
Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com
RE: Corporate Espionage
An ex-gf worked in management for a very large firm that owned condos, apartment complexes, etc. It is common practice (as in, once a month) to call up the other local complexes and pretend to be a potential renter, asking for their current pricing/deals (they call it "being shopped"). It's absolutely pathetic how transparent it is, and every time someone hangs up the phone with a "shopper" they know they've been shopped. Why they all don't just break down and say "I'm so-and-so from complex 'X'... can you tell me what your current pricing/deals are?". Every single one does it,it's no secret, yet they can't bring themselves to just be open about it. No clue...
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Corporate Espionage
Is it ethical. NO! It's deceitful and disengenuous.
photoengineer...it's clearly an ethical issue. All engineers subscribe to some level of ethical practice, stated or unstated. It's basic to the concept and tenets of engineering. Without it, there would be no confidence in engineering as a profession. If you are a member of any of the engineering organizations, adherence to its code of ethics is usually required for membership.
For the licensed group (no, let's not make this a licensing discussion), most state laws weave the concept of ethical practice into statutory language...an ethical breach can also become a legal breach.
Yes, different cultures interpret ethical considerations in different ways. What is perceived as an ethical breach in one society, might not be considered so in another; however, engineering is one of those "truth" and superlative professions...analyses and designs strive to reach a level of "truth"; whether that "truth" is the right answer, the best effort to solve, the most expedient yet protective design, or some other high reaching goal. It is not the goal of an engineer to deceive, to subvert, to hide problems, to take from others without credit unless it is public domain...and on and on. I know of no culture that overtly condones and encourages its engineers or others to lie or deceive. Maybe I'm naive.
RE: Corporate Espionage
Would you need to ask is fraudulent conduct ethical? whether or not it is defined by law or by an associations or licensing boards codes, to my mind any deliberate deception for gain is clearly unethical y the simple laws of human decency.
The shopping example mentioned by Dan is more complex as to agree to exchange prices could be classed as collusion to fix prices.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Corporate Espionage
b. Individual professional conduct.
The following guidelines regarding illegal or unethical individual professional conduct shall apply:
(1) Licensees shall not use association with
nonengineers, corporations or partnerships
as "cloaks" for unethical acts.
and another state:
5.5.4 The architect or professional engineer shall not engage in conduct involving fraud or wanton disregard of
the rights of others.
These don't appear to directly relate to your situation, but calling someone on the phone and fraudulantly mis-representing the identification of the caller is pretty low.
RE: Corporate Espionage
And yes, I do understand that my situation is not "corporate espionage", but isn't it a catchier title than "competitors who call you up claiming to be a client so they can get their hands on your marketing material"?
I will have to give this more thought as I am certain that the code of ethics in my state has a clause similar to the one JAE posted and the question now is, do I pursue this apparent violation with our licensing board or not?
As always, valuable insights from the Eng-tips community.
RE: Corporate Espionage
There's nothing wrong with bringing this to the attention of the state board and letting them judge whether it is appropriate or not. At the very least, they could possibly just reprimand them and that may help that individual do the right thing in the future.
RE: Corporate Espionage
I cannot fathom that any state board would get mad at somebody who sent in a letter requesting a company brochure be sent to their home address. The fact that they may not have actually had clients is a questionable tactic but variations of that theme are used in countless business transactions.
We all get tons of e-mail from people in Nigeria asking for money, credit cards, social security information, etc. None of these is legal. But we simply delete and ignore. I recommend the same for you as well. Delete and ignore.
Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com
RE: Corporate Espionage
Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com
RE: Corporate Espionage
Marketing materials are produced at substantial cost. As you said, they are made freely available to potential customers, with the choice of material to be provided still in the hands of the engineering firm. A request for brochures, etc. by deception is in my opinion a low act, and if the deception is participated in by an engineer, it is unethical.
RE: Corporate Espionage
Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that they like it
RE: Corporate Espionage
Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com
RE: Corporate Espionage
On the subject of whether or not the person was directed to send the email, obviously that would be very difficult if not impossible to prove. However, in this particular instance, the HR Department consists only of the person who sent the email and the entire office has a total of 4 people.
RE: Corporate Espionage
The easiest way of handling it is to write back and say, I understand you work for a firm that is in the same line of business as mine. I'm puzzled why you are requesting information from me when the firm that you work for is more than capable of doing the type of work that you need. Is there something that I could assist your firm with?
Or ignore it like you do those Nigerian scammers.
Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com
RE: Corporate Espionage
See I5, II5, III1, III6.
Many states encode similar ethical codes into law. Licensing boards don't just regulate individual engineers, they regulate engineering firms.
RE: Corporate Espionage
Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com
RE: Corporate Espionage
RE: Corporate Espionage
he could have been collecting data for a different purpose. Maby he was going to apply for a job with your firm and wanted to collect information to be familiar with your company in the interview.
Maby he has a friend or relative who is a potential customer for your firm. You can't really make an ethical judgement without all the facts.
RE: Corporate Espionage
Conclusions can be drawn.
RE: Corporate Espionage
"Conclusions can be drawn."
Yep. But not facts.
RE: Corporate Espionage
RE: Corporate Espionage
They have gotten the message. Leave it alone.
RE: Corporate Espionage
The line is crossed when fake quotations and benchmarks are sought.
- Steve
RE: Corporate Espionage
RE: Corporate Espionage
Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that they like it