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Is anyone else bitter about work?
36

Is anyone else bitter about work?

Is anyone else bitter about work?

(OP)
I don't know if it's the engineering field, Corporate America, or just me but does anyone really love being an engineer anymore?  Sure, it pays the bills but is anyone actually excited to show up to work in the morning?

Most of the people I work with have become cynical and are more interested in making themselves look good then completing a project.  Engineers, developers, government agencies, inspectors, contractor, and sub-contractors are all on different teams and only looking out for their own interests.  Even within my own company different departments try to push each other down to appear more profitable.  Lazy employees get promoted over hard working employees and it feels like some fundamental rule that we learned in kindergarten about being fair and doing what's right has been lost.  I used to love the though of becoming an engineer but after 7 years of the real world, I just don't care anymore.  Am I alone?
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

2
Well, I still love being an engineer, but do get frustrated at being an employee of my current employer where many of the things you mention happen.

However, my last employer, while not perfect, was - especially with hindsight - a lot better.

So, I still like to believe it's the employer not the industry - even if a lot of employers are like it.

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Quote:

Lazy employees get promoted over hard working employees and it feels like some fundamental rule that we learned in kindergarten about being fair and doing what's right has been lost.
Fairness was never a rule, just an ideal... this is not kindergarten.  "Lazy" employees can't get promoted if "hard working" employees don't do their work for them.

I've always done the best that I could in my situations.  Were there politics to deal with? Yes.  Were there brown-nosers? Yes.  Did others take credit for some things I did? It has happened.  Would I switch careers? No.  I would not trade the challenges or statisfaction I have encountered for anything else.  Of course, if I found that I really enjoyed digging ditches with a spoon more, I'd look into pursueing that line of work.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

3
I am a bit bitter - to the point I find it hard to work sometimes.

After advancement ground to a halt at my first job (about 8 years), I decided to move. I thought the company I was with for 5 years seemed ok, but now I know how most people see them as a bunch of D-bags, which I do too.

I think it also incorporates US politics as well though. I find it hypocritical of the overwhelmingly "conservative"  engineers out there pushing for local tax increases that will fund projects, just so there workload stayed strong. Of course, these are the same people that are against the current ARRA funded projects.  Just the politics?  I think so.

The first company above realized they were screwing people and came to their senses when they had a hard time getting new people. The improved moral, wages, and benefits.  The second company is just looking out for the bottom line, and has let a lot of the good people go, and driven off many other good people through poor management. Meanwhile, some of the laziest, and most difficult people to work with are still there.

While I understand businesses provide jobs, I seriously disagree that most people at the top of a company are really looking out for the true good of their employees, because they have their interest in front of the employees 100% of the time.

Excited, no. I almost dread getting up in the morning.  I would seriously make a change in career if I could get through school for something else quickly, and get a job making close to what I am now. I just do not want to take a big financial hit.

In other ways, I get pissed to hear of a friend that made more than I did last year, only having worked for 4 months. And anther friend that pulls in about $130K to watch a radar screen in the middle of the ocean.  Hardly makes it seem worthwhile to bust my hump to appease short-sighted, arrogant clients.

End of rant.

BTW, could you tell I had thought of starting a post similar to yours?
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I'm not bitter about work.  I work at a great company, but I am a bit bitter about my salary right now.  If I were to look elsewhere right now (which I've been doing superficially), I could get a 20% raise and only be where I should be at my current company (if our pay hadn't been cut and I got modest raises for the last two years).  I should be looking to make 15% - 20% more than the 20% more than I'm getting now.  It's a crappy place to be!!

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

It depends on the industry and company. I have been happy and bitter at times.
I love my current company.

Chris
SolidWorks 09 SP4.1
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I read a book recently entitled "Shopcraft as soulcraft" that addressed a lot of the malaise contained in corporate life.  The author uses too many big words, but still seems to speak to me about many of the ills of the so-called white-collar trades.  There is an article that turned into the book at:

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/shop-class-as-soulcraft

If you are young enough you should consider changing careers to something more satisfying.  You might end up happier.

 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

6
Nope, life's just not fair, period.  There are people who barely managed to graduate from high school and college to play professional sports and pull in 10 to 100 times $130K.

But you are not them, they can't do what you do, and you can't do what they do, for the brief time that they can, before ligaments, tendons, and bones give out.

If you're stuck in a boring job, it just may be that you weren't meant to be an engineer.  As Johnny Bunko learns (http://www.johnnybunko.com/), "There is no plan."

Personally, I love being an engineer.  I would be bored silly watching a radar screen in the middle of an ocean for the duration of my watch duty.  Just bear in mind that his pay is commensurate with his responsibility for dozens, hundreds, or thousands of lives, depending on the type of ship; not to mention being away from home and family most of the year.

This thread seems to be a bit of the "grass is greener" griping session.  Well, get over it; EVERYONE gripes about their job.  Even Donald Trump thinks he doesn't have enough money.  

Either find a new boss, new job, or new profession.  If you're complaining, then you're only complaining about yourself, since you're the only person that can do anything about your situation.  You'er an engineer, so engineer a solution to your problems.

TTFN

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Well, I'm about 35.  I do like engineering, but not the client part I guess.  It has been to long since I have had enough good, interesting engineering to do.  I really just need more of a shift in where I am going, but that is hard to do right now.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

2
Nope.
Life is great and work is fun.

Bitterness is a choice and so is your attitude.

Glad I'm not you

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Nope, but if I were I don't think I'd gripe about it here.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Your suffering is ordinary.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

3
I enjoy engineering.  I'm excited about what I do.  It is sometimes demanding, sometimes just plain fun, and sometimes routine.  It all comes with doing what we do.

I do not enjoy corporate life...and for those of you who think it is rosy as a corporate person or having a higher "position"...it ain't so!  Been there, done that...it's a lot more fun in the trenches.

I left the "corporate world" (meaning working for a larger engineering corporation), 5 years ago.  No regrets.  I do what I like and do not have a corporate structure to try to control me every day.  I'm very fortunate, but I also made that decision on my own and it is only up to me what I make of it.

I'm disappointed in the direction of the engineering profession.  I think the engineering societies have sold out to politics and do not protect the true values of engineering in the way that they should.  Engineers compete at if they were subcontractors trying to get a landscaping job.  It's absurd.  What happened to qualifications based selection?  Why do engineers allow themselves to be put in the position of "bidding" on projects?  One engineering firm is not as good as another and they should prove their qualifications beyond the issuance of an impersonal bid.  Engineering is not impersonal.  Yes, we are often "introverts" and don't deal with people very well, but the personal part of it comes in the commitment each engineer gives to his profession and the honor of being correct in what we do.

Until we say a resounding "NO" to bidding instead of proving our qualifications, we will continue to have these issues.  In the late 1970's, the US Supreme Court struck down a provision in the Engineer's code of ethics that prevented bidding.  Since that time, we have been on a downward slide.  Slowly at first, but we are approaching avalanche.  There's always someone out there who will do it cheaper.  They are not interested in holding up the professional stature we all strive for and deserve.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Heard through the rumor mill yesterday from an Electrial Engineer friend that employers are only hiring those between the ages of 25 and 50.  If true, that really s#@$s.

"Bitter" is not be the word I would use...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Ron, when we have people bid for us we consider technical competancy not just the $ value.  Just today I had to tell a vendor we probably wouldn't pick them not because of price but because of concerns over their technical ability.

Is this still a bad thing?

(Sorry if this detracts from the whine fest, who's brining the cheese?)

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Kenat...no, that's OK.  We have a similar process in the state here where the consultant submits qualifications in one envelope and their price for the work in another.  The agency is then supposed to select based on qualifications, then negotiate.  If they cannot negotiate with the first qualified group, they move to the second and so on.  That's essentially what you are doing.

Also, Kenat, I agree with your comment about it being employer based with regard to our satisfaction in our jobs.  If the employer sucks, we'll hate where we are.  If the employer is good, we'll like it, even in the tough times.

Wine before whine!shadeshappy

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Quote:

...employers are only hiring those between the ages of 25 and 50!

I am 46 and have been hearing this rumor for about 25 years.

Chris
SolidWorks 09 SP4.1
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I love engineering, it is fascinating and challenging and fun. For most of my career I got up in the morning looking forward to work and not believing I was paid for what I did. I consider myself extremely lucky for it.

I am bitter these five minutes, but I am aware that it is for a particular set of circunstances (company, project, situation) that have very little to do with engineering.

Everybody in this forum is making an extra effort by the fact of participating in it. Hence you must like engineering (at least enough to talk about it and share experiences with the rest of us). Do not confuse that with hating or being bitter with a particular job, project, company

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

For the record, I was not whining, I was venting.  I realize this is short term fro me, but I wish things could move faster than they are. My comments were also not a grass is greener thought. I know I will have to do similar things at any position, but right now, right here, the focus of my work is not what I want it to be on, and it is not my choice.

There are several personal things associated with my work situation that have me worked up as well, so it doesn't help the situation. I will wine tonight when I get home.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

TDAA...yeah, the personal considerations don't help.  I have those as well.  It would be nice is we could all so what we want without outside intervention.....fantasyland.

You're not alone.  Many other engineers are pulled between the demands/joys of our profession and the necessities of homelife and family.  Balance of those is a bitch!  Good luck...I've been trying to strike that balance for 35 years...I'm not much better at it today than I was 35 years ago!


 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

After nearly 45 years as a working professional, I have to say that my current position is the best that I've ever held.  And for the record, I've always enjoyed whatever it was that I was doing over those 45 years and can't remember ever dreading coming to work in the morning.  Now that doesn't mean that there weren't some rough times or that I never worked for an idiot or I never thought I was worth more than what I was getting paid, but everything always seemed to work out OK eventually and over time I was able to take advantage of situations that led to better jobs or leveraging an opportunity to work on something more interesting or professionally rewarding, or whatever.

Now if I can just keep that feeling for another 3 1/2 years, I've got it made winky smile

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

John,
Will you be able to get cowski to replace you at the user group meetings?  That will be a huge void when you quit attending.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

(OP)
It is refreshing to hear that some people still love being an Engineer.  

From this thread, it appears to me that Mechanical Engineers are more satisfied with their jobs than others.  Perhaps there is something about Mechanical work that is new and exciting and keeps people interested.  In the Civil Field, the only thing that is new and changing is the government regulations and forms that I have to complete to obtain permits for my projects.
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I'm neither ME nor CE, but I'm happy, nonetheless.  

Possibly, part of that comes from the fact that every new task is different in some way, and sometimes, they're radically different, so we're constantly learning new things and new phenomenologies.  

It's way better than school, I get to learn new things, don't have to take exams, and get paid to do it all.

TTFN

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I feel much better now.  

Actually, several jobs are now getting going, so I feel more purpose now.  It just seemed a bit stagnant, even though I have had plenty to do (non-project).  I still plan on moving on to deal with the personal side of the work induced issues.  This has more to do with having the wife be in the place she wants to be than the actual work I do.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

TDAA,

When Mama's happy, everyones happy.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

That's such tosh just cause Mama's happy don't mean dad is.  She's happy shoe shopping for hours, or watching hollywood gossip TV shows etc. doesn't do much for me.

However, if Mama aint happy, then no way dad's happy.

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

monkeydog-

I think that goes, "If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy".

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Mama wants what I want. It just matters more to her.

I will make it happen one way or another. It may end up burning some helpful bridges (unintentionally), but it is family first.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Quote (ewh):


John,
Will you be able to get cowski to replace you at the user group meetings?  That will be a huge void when you quit attending.

There's already another Siemens PLM employee who has been lobbying my boss for my job after I retire.  He knows NX very well and has great stage presence (he's a professional magician on the side) so I suspect we'll be covered, but God willing, I've got a few years yet before we cross that bridge.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

thumbsup

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I am a little bitter.  It is not engineering, but rather the company that always makes or breaks the deal for me.  Up until recently, I have never considered quiting solely because I didn't like the work.

One of these days I will find that perfect place that fits my lifestyle, salary, location etc, and can actually keep my attention.

My job right now is very repetitive.  Mind-numbingly repetitive and extremely boring, although busy.  Pays extremely well though which is the only thing keeping me here.  But I can feel my experience and education slipping away.  My only challenge is what to eat for lunch and putting out fires that should not have started to begin with.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

After my last hour, I'm maybe a bit bitter, or annoyed, maybe angry, maybe even enraged.

However, I'm sat in my office rocking back and forth saying over & over again "It's not engineering it's my employer, It's not engineering it's my employer, It's not engineering it's my employer, It's not engineering it's my employer, "

Yes, tomorrow on my day off I will be job searching.
 

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

TDAA,

Few people will get that upset about your setting of family as a higher priority; those guys you don't want to work for, anyway.  I spent way more time at work when my first kid was growing up, and now that time with him is forever lost.  

I haven't had the occasion to use this recently, "No one, on their deathbed, has ever regretted not spending more time at the office."
 

TTFN

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I give what my employer asks of me and then some.  My bitterness is held on what has to be political, those who do naught day in and day out are not called to task by the President.  One of our guys was caught surfing porn sites and claimed he was learning character animation for use in the company website at a later date.  Three years later, he is still here, the website has no animation and he's been caught a few more times.  Yet he remains and with 11 years here, you know he's not make $50K a year.  That is however, out of my control, so I try no to worry too much about it.  I would love to have a review (it's been three years) but I still have gotten the cost of living increase each year (exception last year - nada) and that's all I have come to expect.  To keep me going, I have some good friends at work, and I am well recognized by my customers as a good engineer.

drawn to design, designed to draw

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

IR, I know that, but it is a weird situation. This is the one time where I actually feel I owe my employer something more than just my normal work.

I actually have good reason for thinking that way.

Normally, I would not.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

lighten up charlie.

yep shadow, your situation is common. at the 7 year mark, i quit, went to stanford and finished a msme and then started a pawn shop and made a crap load more than being an engineer.. 3x. did just what i wanted. worked for myself. right now. it's hard for all of us self-employed. if you have a job, stick with it unless you have a real plan. and you have to come up with the plan. yes, i did find engineering boring sitting in front of a monitor all day. maybe the lab thing is more suited for you... good luck.  

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Hmm.  There are times when the job just flat out sucks (office politics).  There are times (like now) when the boss has sold products for which we don't have the design finished up yet, and the crunch is on to do the final development at gunpoint to meet a ship schedule, then the customer pulls a surprise inspection to witness a test, so you have him pull a random unit off the shelf (from the pieces you are still tweaking, trying to figure out what manufacturing variables are affecting the performance), and you load it in the test cell, cold sweat starting to trickle down your neck and prepare to start the tapdance ... and the unit performs flawlessly.  You smile beningly like that is how it was supposed to happen, ain't we great, and go quietly back to work.  The boss comes back after dropping the customer at the airport, and you share an earsplitting grin.  Then back to work to meet the ship date, and if we hit it he's gonna spring for drinks at the pub...

Ok, parts of that suck.  But parts of it, as you figure out the various bits and pieces that weren't working right and the pile of "don't work" parts dwindles, and the pile of "ready to pack & ship" parts grows...yeah, I'm gonna go home now and have a quiet beer.  I'll keep my job for awhile longer.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I'm not at all bitter about my job, but that's because I don't work as an ordinary employee engineer any more.  I was once an employee engineer working loads of unpaid overtime, saving my company and my company's clients vast sums and yet the only thing I had to show for my efforts at the end of the week was a paycheque for straight time.  That made me VERY bitter, and rightly so.  The issue is not the money itself- it's the respect the money represents.  

What is key is that I didn't just sit around feeling sorry for myself- I found a way to get out.  For me, getting out was merely finding a better job, at a company which has this figured out.  In fact, for me personally the key was sticking around long enough to RECOGNIZE how great the job was once I'd found it- it wasn't perfect from the get-go.  

For others, it may be going into business for yourself.  And for others, it may be acknowledging that engineering is not really what you want to do with the rest of your life.

I love the engineering AND the business side of what I do at present- I'd be dissatisfied if either part of the job wasn't there.  I don't feel that love all day, every day, but on the whole.  

Finding the right situation helps you find the right mental attitude to excel.  Merely pretending that stuff doesn't bother you in the name of having a positive attitude is a recipie not only for stagnation, but possibly for a nervous breakdown one day.

I'm very bitter and sad when I think of what our profession once was and what it has become- especially when I realize just how much engineers themselves, or those who were once engineers, have contributed to this decline through their own greed, complacency and hubris.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

OK guys, I asked mama, and she said "When she is happy, everyone's happy"  

Right now she is happy, so I am happy.

I have a feeling if I chalange mama, she won't be happy, and I won't be happy.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Quote:

The issue is not the money itself- it's the respect the money represents.   . . . .   through their own greed, complacency and hubris

Seems like you hit two out of three with your selfish desire for more money, to boost your pride by knowing you have respect you must be deserving of.

But that probably isn't true.  It is all the other engineers out there that want more, for some reason or the other that have hurt the industry, right?  I guess I am having a hard time following your point.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

TDAA, yes the point needs clarification.  

My own compensation (beyond a basic salary) is my share of the profit the organization generates.  The profit we generate is earned, not stolen, and does not arise from the exploitation of other engineers.  Every engineer here, myself included, and all the other staff as well, get a fair share of the profit we generate as a company. The founders and owners of this company wisely realized that it was in their own self interest to do so.

To clarify my points about the damage to the profession that I attribute to engineers and former engineers themselves:  the greed I was referring to is not that of engineers asking too much for their services.  Rather, I was referring to the greed of many engineering managers who exploit their staff for their own personal profit- and who for some strange reason we engineers tend to like to elect to positions of power in the bodies that regulate our profession.  These folks are, or were, engineers themselves- and were voted into power by engineers.  Who do we blame?

Complacency and hubris- we've sat around and done nothing- even promoted our profession as a job option to others- while the supply into our profession has swelled, our exclusive right to practice under license was rendered moot, and our compensation relative to that of other professions has fallen dramatically.  We have nobody to blame but ourselves.
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

2
Following on to Moltenmetal's posts - I'm in the Building Services design and construction side (Consulting M&E), and I started in 1979, and have seen this industry out here in my area (Western Canada) endure three major recessions/economic crises/downturns, whatever, and every time the lean and mean mentality gets worse and worse.  

We are an industry that provides fixed fees for unknown amounts of service, and are in a highly competitive market (too many engineers, as Moltenmetal has alluded to in other posts).  We endure massive scope creep all the time, we get paid maybe, if the Architect gets paid, and only after we hound them after 60 days, and all we get is negative feedback - the occupants are complaining it's too hot, it's too cold, the hot water doesn't come out of the tap fast enough, your ducts are too big, your pipe is in the wrong place, your air units are too big, your mechanical room is too big....

Rewards?  I've seen my net take home stay in a near flatline in the last 10 years even though the gross has been rising, thanks to the tax structure here.  The information age has created a situation where many, many more drawing changes can be made faster, e-mail volume has increased to the point where I spend at least an hour or more a day just to read them and then file/prioritize/action them, so my work-day has gotten progressively longer so I can still actually design and coordinate things....

Yeah, I'm bitter, but it's about the particular niche of the industry I'm in, not about actual engineering.  And as per a lot of the good advice above, if you can't stand the heat, get outta the kitchen, make a change....

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Molten,

Thanks for the clarification.  I agree with where you are coming from.

The greed aspects was one of the worst things with my first job.  We had open book management.  The CFO would stand up every month and tell us it looked good for hitting the goals and funding the bonus pool.  This was correct.  What was not mentioned was that when the partners took their bonus payout, that cut the cash that the employee pool was based on, therefore, no bonus.  Needless to say, that was part of the bitterness back then.  

They have since changed the structure of the bonuses, and pay the employees first, and pay management when there is enough left.

It is nice that some places have learned that an employee with a goal is a good one.

What has gotten to me lately is the notion of pay cuts and furloughs.  We expect that an engineer will be "professional" and put in what ever needs to be done to make it happen.  In return the salary (typically based on a year) is provided. You give in the good times, the company takes in the bad times.  They win.  Furloughs are a bit better, but the more I have thought about it, they piss me off, too.  Sure, you get the day off and you do not get paid for it.  That makes since, but you have essentially become an hourly employee without the same perks such as overtime pay. Once again, they win, and it just leaves employees bitter.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

OK IRstuff...you're Dr. Phil and Sarah Palin?...You betcha!
Kenat cracks me up.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

TDAA, while sometimes easier said than done, you do have the option of finding, or trying to find, alternative employment.  Assuming you're in the US I believe the 13th Amendment ensures this.

(Thanks Ron, I'll be here all weekwinky smile)

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

That's very specific to a particular individual or a group of individuals.  I've had the good, or bad, fortune to have seen multiple people in charge over the course of my career (10 GMs in 5 yrs at one particular company), and it's pretty clear that you can have the exact same company, and have an a**hole for a GM, or an absolutely nice guy for GM, and the atmosphere changes accordingly.  

Sadly, though, it seems that a**holes have better understanding of what it takes to keep a company afloat, while the nice guys tend to not be able to make the tough decisions.  The rare, and best, case is when you get a GM who's nearly an a**hole financially, but has the forethought to not want to be in the position of laying off people during the downturns.

But, none of that relates to ENGINEERING, it's just business.  Obviously, today's news about Lehman Brothers is proof of that.  Lying SOBs are everywhere, not just in engineering.   

TTFN

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

2
A couple of interesting posts above, on the one hand TDAA comes to the conclusion that cutting pay during a recession is poor management and makes employees bitter ,whilst on the other hand IRstuff comes to the conclusion that laying people off makes the management a bunch of a**holes and makes the employees bitter.

The one thing neither do is come up with an answer of what should be done, you know the sort of things management has to do. I guess to be a good manager you have to sit back and do nothing and just wait for the company to go bankrupt and everyone to loss their jobs. I hope I never become a good boss.

But as IRstuff said none of this has anything to do with engineering it is all down to business. How many business sectors are currently growing? With the possible exception of repo companies, insolvency companies and debt collection not many I am aware of.

Whilst much of the wealth of Europe and the US was built on it none of us are slaves anymore if you do not like something stand up and change it.

The truth is as I see it in the west we have collectively been living beyond our means for a long while now and this is payback time and it hurts, it has nothing to do with engineering.
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Ajack, you make some good points, your last paragraph certainly seems to have some truth to it from my point of view.

However, on the not proposing alternatives to lay-offs/pay-cuts I'm not sure it's that simple.  While the recent economic events have been very severe in some cases I suspect better management could have reduced the impact.

For instance, at my employer we have some small profit sharing.  When they announced pay freezes, then pay cuts & compulsory leave etc. on top of several rounds of lay-offs they also suspended profit sharing.  To me this was a massive mistake.  What they should have done was increased the profit sharing so that if we somehow pulled it out of the bag & made a profit, this would have compensated for the other cuts.  Things like this that wouldn't have actually cost the company any money (unless we made a profit & cold afford it) but would have been incentive to keep working.

Also, how many lay-offs etc. are preceded by some bad management decisions, and/or examples of wasting money such as $50,000 on Christmas parties, or non essential building renovations/improvements etc.  Or in one case I saw (previous UK employer), they announced lay-offs just a few weeks before we were expecting a big order to come in, this wasn't just a vague promise but an almost certainty.  Instead of keeping the staff, having them prepare for the job making fixtures, crates etc. doing some refurbishment etc. they laid them off, then when we got the order had trouble meeting schedule because we didn't have the staff!

It's these kinds of things that make the lay-offs etc. harder to take.

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Bitter?  No.  Just got my bonus for last year.  A little less than 2 months pay.

Good luck,
Latexman

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Kenat it is interesting you mention the Christmas parties etc, in a survey in the papers this week the biggest annoyance to employees was cutting back on petty things, biscuits, toilet paper etc, so that is not popular either.

If you look at managing a company in the same way as managing your own personal finances what would you do if your income suddenly dropped. Lay off the gardener or cut their hours, cut your household expenses, buy cheaper food not eat out so often etc, or carry on as before risk losing your home and going bankrupt and offer your gardener a profit share scheme?

Whilst there are always poor managerial decisions this is almost certain to happen. Let me give you an example. The company have been renting a building and the lease is coming up and there is the possibility of a big order in the pipeline. Do you go and buy premises, as currently they are cheap and interest rates are low or do you lease again?

If the economy improves and property prices increase and you get the order then the right choice is to have brought. If on the other hand you don't get the order the economy takes a dip and property prices drop the right decision would be to lease and the extra cost of buying might sink the company.

So what is the answer? It is almost certain one of the two will happen and of course it is very easy in six months or a years time to say any fool could have predicted what would happen if you get it wrong and just say nothing if you get it right.
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Regardless of the job environment, I think one's ability to control their emotions and attitude go a long way.  I know people who have bad situations at their job and at home, yet their attitude is very good towards other people.  But some people carry their problems and emotions on their shoulders.  It all comes down to how you accept the fact that life is tough and unfair and still choose to be cheerful on a daily basis.

I am somewhere in between.  Some coworkers see me as serious, yet calm and focused, and others may see me as frustrated.  My problem is that even when I am calm I have a serious facial expression.  I can't help it.  Smiling for no reason does not come naturally.  People are always shocked when I smile and laugh about something.   

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

(OP)
You recieved a bonus equal to 2 months in engineering!!  Now I feel even crappier with my usual bonus equal to 3 or 4 days pay.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Count your blessings.  My bonus was a $35 gift card.

My Extra Special Bonus was being laid off in January.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Well, our company did record business last year, so bonuses are pretty good this year.

It seems like business is definitely picking up.  Traffic on the local freeway in Orange County has decidedly gotten worse in the last 4 months or so.

TTFN

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

im bitter to my work, because a lot of non engineers entering our field because of various softwares created for engineers. Because its easy to use some employers hiring non engineers to use it and they will check if its ok.

The fact that engineers studied sooooooooo many years, its so degrading that non engineers are employed to do the job for the engineers

Poems are made by fools like me, but only God can make a tree. engineers creates wonderful buildings, but only God can creates wonderful minds

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Talking of bitter, I just read an op ed by a business manager who sacks unhappy employees. He reckons there are some people who drag the morale of the rest down, so get rid of them.

Pretty brutal but I can see his logic.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Greg - I read the same article....with a bit of jealousy...in my company we can't hardly fire the slackers let alone unhappy people!!

I've mentioned before that in my bit of engineering world, the HR group doesn't make the decisions on hiring or wages but they most certainly muck-up the firing part.

Regards,
Qshake
pipe
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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

We used to have this running game in a previous company that had sequential serial numbers on the paychecks.  That allowed us to track the rise and fall of employment at the division.  Some posted a nice Excel chart of the employment numbers, week by week.  Management got wind of that and considered it to be bad for morale and got the payroll company to scramble the serial numbers on the checks.

TTFN

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

GMcD:  we realized that the key to being properly paid for engineering was not to sell engineering services, but rather to build and sell what we design.

I won't tell you about my last few bonuses- they'd just make you mad.  It's the next best thing to being in business for yourself (during good times, that is!).  And during slow times, we keep people- unfortunately like qshake's place we tend not to use slow times to get rid of the under-performers.  That demotivaates the people who really get it- nobody likes a parasite.

It doesn't make everyone happy- there's still plenty of hard work and lots of stress.  What it does generate is a reason to cooperate.



 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

The last few post reminds me of "beatings will continue until moral improves" LOL

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Ajack, maybe I'm non standard in finding some of the 'little stuff' somewhat patronizing - or maybe it's the way I've seen it done.  Either way, I'd hope an acceptable Christmas (or winter festival for teh PC crowd) gathering for a site of 200-250 people could be done for a lot less than $50k, that was my point.

I don't think I said, and didn't mean to imply, that there isn't a time or place for lay-offs.

However, in at least some cases it seems these are the first choice when in some circumstances it seems other ideas such as reduced weeks, pay cuts with something like a promise of increased profit sharing if a profit is made and the like might be worth considering.  For instance, maybe change the gardener to once monthly instead of weekly if the cost/benefit works out.

Of course, depending how contracts, especially union contracts, are written and local tax/accounting laws/rules then maybe things like this are too much effort and laying off folks is just easier for HR.
 

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

When to pull the trigger on layoffs is a highly subjective decision, and every general manager will have his own threshold of pain.  Moreover, every company's prospects and ongoing business is dfferent.  A company with strong backlog and positive outlook for future business will have a different take on layoffs than a company who can barely make each week's payroll.

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

2
You mean "bonus" is actually only one word? Now I'm bitter.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Kenat, sorry I did not mean to imply that 50k was a petty amount, just that in a survey last week cutting back on "petty" things was number one on the list of what people dislike most, personally it would be well down my list, compared to saving jobs Christmas parties, inferior biscuits etc are petty in my mind.

I totally agree with you about pay cuts short working weeks etc being preferable to redundancy but if you look on this site many others do not feel this way. From a company point of view even that has failings, in the UK it is illegal to force a pay cut on anyone so you also have to offer redundancy. You can be fairly sure that the best people who would find it easier to find another job would take the redundancy and the ones staying on would not be the ones you would choose necessarily.

The reason so many managerial decisions seem stupid is they are only based on someone's best guess as to what will happen in the future. To use your example earlier when they laid of workers with the possibility of a big order. Do you lay off 25% of your staff now and if you get the order realise you were wrong or keep everyone on for a couple more months and then not get the order and lay off 75% of your staff and have the company in an even worse position?

Of course you could say that predicting the future is what being a manager is all about but if I  could think I would be making millions on the stock market rather than trying to keep my head above water.
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

MoltenMetal - I'd love to be able to get off the sell-out of engineering services in the Bulding Design and construction industry, but in our world, all we sell is professional time and drawings for building systems.  And every building is Model #1, Serial #1, so there is very little repetitive design, other than standard details.  The only thing that can discriminate one consulting engineer from another is fee (price) and the assumption on the part of Clients/Develpers/Architects is that we are all obliged to maintain the same level of quality in the documents, and provide whatever hours it takes to deal with the changes that others beyond our control make.  

We try to have very strict wording in the fee letters to account for, and trigger additional services fees when there is scope creep, but it is very tough to try to collect on that, and because of the abundance of other Consultants out there, the Client will go to the next guy who didn't try to get additional fees.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

ajack, I didn't mean to suggest that managers should also be fall proof mediums.  The example I gave of a large order in the imediate future was a real example, not hypothetical.  The order was a near certainty pending some final testing, it wasn't even just a 75% liklihood or something, very low risk of it not coming through.  Oh, and the company had a good chunk in the bank as I understood it.

I also appreciate your point about local employment laws, I'd only partly addressed this mentioning contracts etc.  Actually, what you said happened to some extent back in the UK, they offered voluntary redundancies and some really good folks took them, leaving some of the less good.

I appreciate it's a difficult situation, and in fairness our management did make some attempts at making it a bit more bearable at the last few rounds of lay-offs & cuts last year.  The pay cut was graduated, a bit like income tax, low earners saw no cut, above a certain threshold the % cut increased for every few thousand you earned.  Also senior management took larger cuts, and there were some share options given out at some point.  However, there was a sense of too little to late about some of it given they started lay-offs in late 2006.

At the end of the day, as you effectively say, you can't keep every one happy all the time.  However, maybe the best managers manage to make less people miserable most of the time.

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I'm pretty happy as engineer but must admit that I sometimes resent watching guys with business degrees getting jobs in Marketing and Sales then seeing how they get offices rather than sharing cubicles like the engineers.  Those guys also make better money then the engineers.  It was the engineers who in college were slaving over mechanics of materials on Friday night while the business majors were out having drinks!

 

Tunalover

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Our layoffs during our tough period last year were the three highest earners who had a combined 80 plus years here at the company.  Of those three, I'd have only kept one if it was my decision and that's purely based on contribution to the company's coffers.

The fact that you lay off with no redundancy package here in the US is still something I can't understand.  Why the so called Unions allowed this to happen all those years ago is beyond me.  And at this point in time, I don't see it ever coming around.

Redundancy can bit you in the arse.  When Waterford Crystal (yup, the glass company) had some voluntary redundancies about 20 years ago, a lot of people who took them were highly skilled and trained as glass cutters.  All of a sudden there was a glass cutter working out of his basement in every townland in the country, using cheaper glass imported and a small investment in a grinding wheel.  This eventually led to the closure of Waterford in 2009 and the loss of an icon in the industry.  The fact that people don't value glass as much any more didn't help either.

drawn to design, designed to draw

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

But the Waterford example is just an example of good things about downturns -if a bloke in  basement can knock out decent glassware that people are prepared to buy, why did Waterford continue to exist?

 

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

From tunalover:

"I'm pretty happy as engineer but must admit that I sometimes resent watching guys with business degrees getting jobs in Marketing and Sales then seeing how they get offices rather than sharing cubicles like the engineers.  Those guys also make better money then the engineers.  It was the engineers who in college were slaving over mechanics of materials on Friday night while the business majors were out having drinks!"

Sad but true, and further proof of the old adage, "It's not what you know but who you know."  Why do you think they spent all that time networking and making acquaintances?  Yes, partly to consume large amounts of alcohol, but also to create that network of "buddies" that will keep them in those offices, cracking the whip over us cubicle dwellers.  clown

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

GMcD:  a good friend of mine left the commercial/industrial structural eng rat race and built a specialist practice  doing large numbers of residential projects.  He's doing very well for himself.

If the builders are eating your lunch, become a design-builder- and keep the savings you generate from better engineering- more efficient use of materials, higher efficiency in your work, more accurate drawings etc.  But of course if the only way people can make money is to under-bid and then change-order their way to a profit, your engineering skills and ethics might be a hindrance...If nobody is making any money in building construction, or at least not honestly, find another industry- one that's profitable.

It took a layoff to get me to make the move to another industry, but that layoff was the best thing that ever happened to me.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

MoltenMetal:  How true - I left a design-build place due to the ethics and quality issues that got in the way - the constant struggle between construction profitability and design quality, and what the Owner really wanted, always a fine line when design and construction are under the same company.

Yes, I have to find something that will bring the fun back into the career, even if it means a lower level position.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Nice discussion.

Ajax, I do not think that the re is really a way around layoffs, although, the wife said she read something about a county not allowing business to perform layoff. Sounded like a fairytale to me, or perhaps just a good quality internet truth. Apparently it was stated that there was actually better moral and production due to this.

Some things from my view. These contribute to my bitterness about business. Yes, there are exceptions to these views.

Trickle down economics is not a good system.
It encourages those at the top to get richer by giving only as much back that you absolutely have to the people that help you get there. In the US, when the downturns happened, the owners of business, and the Republican party called for tax cuts for business, to help create jobs.  Now, I can see it saving some for a while (more money before the pinch  point), but when was the last time you saw a business decide to hire,because the was more money, but not enough work?

Managers should have a plan, not be able to predict the future.
My last company did not have a plan.  "We have been through this before." was the cry heard throughout the office. Some offices continued with the expensive Christmas parties (ours cut back to crap, making people bitter when the newsletter came out - via US post, another waste) Well, the scope of the downturn hit them like a ton of bricks.  They quickly thought through what to do and came up with a "plan".  Once implemented, they re-thought, and determined that was not enough, rinse and repeat. The items differed from pay cuts, to layoffs, but there was no real understanding of would this achieve the goal. So, after several iterations, I was let go with some others.  I knew it was coming, and left with a smile.  I felt liberated, but most people left behind were bitter.  The good ones with ambition have been leaving there.

Salary cuts and furloughs.
The concept of salary has been lost.  It is defined as fixed compensation for services.  Sure, I am not indicating that it should never be adjusted, but the intent is that I will engineer what we have, look for new work, etc. for $X. I think the US takes advantage  of the "at will" situation, and says if you don't like it, leave.  What comes next from the cuts for an undetermined amount of time? Will we be going to $X this week to $Y next week, and $Z the following week, depending on the workload?  Furloughs are a bit better, because you get some time off out of the deal, but you have just become an hourly employee without the benefits of overtime.  That's right, you now get to get paid less, and potentially work the same average hours, just more one week than the other.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

To those of you who care, this is small departure from the original thread topic.  The last paragraph ties it back in, though.

GMcD:  in my opinion it's not the design/build model that's at fault- it's the competitive and regulatory environment that makes it difficult for honest people to make an adequate living in your industry.  

Having the engineer responsible for both design and construction in both financial and professional terms actually makes a great deal of sense in a lot of ways for both the engineer and the owner.  In that case, there's one-stop shopping for the owner as to who to blame when things go wrong!  Frankly they don't care who screwed up- the designer or the constructor- they just want it fixed, NOW, and at somebody else's cost- and they've every right to want that.  While it generates at least the illusion of solving an ethical dilemma, separating design from construction can create plenty of problems too- problems that take effort, time and money to solve.  Ultimately, that's the client's money.

I'd argue that the separation of engineering design from fabrication and the largest portion of the value chain has been one of the many reasons for the gradual demise of our profession.  We provide a service which the client is usually unqualified to judge the quality of- a service whose true value might only be realized after thirty years of ownership.  That's why they hire us, and why we're considered a profession.  Rather than capturing the entire value of the service we provide, we settle for fees which represent a small fraction of the client's project expenditures.  If we save material or labour by good planning, innovation or by taking a well-calculated risk, we may save the client money, or merely generate additional profit for the constructor- but merely doing so attracts risk TO us while generating zero or near-zero benefit FOR us- aside from perhaps a good reference on the next job.  Since somebody else (the lowest bidder!) is building it and we probably won't be retained to do an adequate job of construction supervision, the tendency to over-design and to stick to the conventional becomes second nature and totally understandable.

Like I said in an earlier post, one of the things that used to make me very bitter about my job was the fact that I never saw a dime of the money that my hard work and intelligence saved for my company or my clients.  I no longer have that complaint.  Man, that's a great feeling!  And I don't feel for a moment that my professional ethics or my fiduciary responsibility to my client are compromised.  I certainly do not feel that I generate a poorer quality product for my clients than those who sell them only services.
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

1st post here, I've been a member for a while and browsed for several years.

I think I'm more bitter that I started off with such promise, hope, enthusiasm, etc and now I sit in a little office all day pushing drawings around making red and green marks and if I'm lucky I get to go out to the field once a quarter. Right out of college I worked at the South Pole as an engineer, and it's been downhill since then. My job is often an exact replica of office space complete with painful commute, several bosses, and the seemingly endless unchanging road linking today with retirement (30 more years, shoot me now). I've compared it to an infinitely long tunnel, ironically I often work with pipelines. I've gone as far as to graph my "distain of work vs. time" and the best I can figure, it's y = |x sin(x)| the general trend is towards more distain, with periods where I am at little to no distain (I don't hate every day more than the last). I'm not really bitter about engineering specifically, it's hard to be too upset with the nice paychecks and robust job market, but I'm certainly not happy with the work, the environment, the direction etc. I'm glad to see that I'm not completely alone.

Random first post, but good thread, thanks. This forum saves me so much time I don't even feel bad posting.
-N

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Good Lord!!  You're already that bad off at, what, year 5?  You and the OP are both young enough to find something else to do, and the sooner you do that the better you'll feel.  

Your apparent level of unhappiness is going to lead to kicking the dog and yelling at the kids and the missus, which is NOT the way you want to live your life.

TTFN

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

(OP)
Thank you npcannon for your comment.  Very funny.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

OK I am 5 years out of school and do not like what I do.  I can see myself yelling at the wife, kicking the dog and depressing my kids if I don't find something else.  So what are some of these mystical jobs???  I volunteer for every special project at my current job to see if I could like anything more.  So far no real winners.  I do like what I do now more than what I did before but this job has a time limit where it will no longer exist at my current employer.  In fact what I am doing now will always be a temporary position no matter where I go.  I thought about project management but I have been exposed to that lately and it is terrible.  I like manufacturing a little but hated the fact that the people putting together the products would not follow the instructions and made changes on their own.  I understand making changes to make something work but not telling anyone is not job security it is a stupid waste of the companies money (we get profit sharing so I really hate to see money being wasted).  I thought maybe sales engineering would be a better place for me because I like traveling and meeting new people but getting into sales seems to be extremely difficult because the compensation is so high everyone wants to do it and the good old boy system is in full effect (especially down here in the Southwest).  

So far my favorite position was where I was in charge of communicating to our outside vendors the requirement of a complex part we needed them to make using only 3D CAD data and drawings that were only used to check not fully define the assembly/part.  This was great because it had everything I liked.  I did a little CAD work, and drawing did not have to be perfect I only had to make sure that the drawing defined all dimensions that we needed checked.  We shared 3D  data and checked the actual parts/assemblies using CMM to model data.  I traveled a little to the places where we were getting the parts built to verify jigs and first builds.  In fact I think that is it.  I want to do that again.  OK how would I find something like that again?  


SW 2007 SP 5.0

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

3
I just finished 263 hours of *overtime* over a period of six weeks to try and meet a deadline that was a result of a "bait and switch" (done consciously or not) in scope, which quadrupled relative to what was bid.  The ensuing change order from us was approved, but the schedule wasn't extended.  In one stretch, after six consecutive 18-hour per day working weekends, missing my wedding anniversary, and a bunch of other "small sacrifices", I worked until Sunday night 11:30, got up at 4:30 Monday morning, resumed work at 5:00 that morning, and didn't go home until 11:30 the following Tuesday morning.  I made it...got it done...

Not so much as an email of thanks or even acknowledgement from the client or any of my superiors for the effort.  Nothing.  Not a phone call, not a pat on the back...nothing.  In the last Strategic Planning Session, however, the MBAs who run the company again repeated ad nauseum how they are expecting more from their people and that people's commitment and dedication will be observed.  Me, I don't know - unless they have installed hidden surveillance cameras or something - how they are going to observe anything.  I just know that since January, I turned the lights on and made the coffee every morning for everyone before they arrived, and then washed the coffee pots and loaded the dishwasher and turned the lights out after they all left.  Well, except during weekends on the floor where the loyal and committed and dedicated MBAs sit in Mahogany Row.  The lights were never on there on Saturdays and Sundays.

Not that I am in any way bitter.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

My brother's boss told him that no employee should expect a "Thank you" for doing a job well.  This guy said a job is privilege and not a right, and the only thanks you are entitled to is a paycheck.  I guess he has a point but it is also sad that giving a compliment is seen as a weak or soft thing to do.  Getting a paycheck is good but that by itself does not provide good emotional health.  A simple "Thank You" from a boss can go a long way.

I guess I have been fortunate.  I work very hard at my job to achieve the desired results.  Whatever I am doing is the right thing since I continue to get high performance ratings and got a salary increase because of it.  I am a young engineer (27 years old) and the company tries to treat us well.  It only makes sense.  Someone has to run these plants when all of the older folks retire.  A lot of pensions and retirement accounts are at stake.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Quote:

My brother's boss told him that no employee should expect a "Thank you" for doing a job well.

Few things could breed resentment faster than an attitude like that. Presumably it hasn't occurred to your brother's boss that if the employee follows a similar path of reasoning they will conclude that no employer should expect anything other than what they pay for.

Sounds like a company destined to go out of business, hardly the best result for employer or employee. Or maybe it is - do we need employers like that?
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

At that particular work location I think the company does get what they pay for...an unmotivated workforce.  

It's just little things that make the difference.  For example, my plants operate 24/7 and I am on call all the time.  My boss will ask me if I can work a particular weekend.  I know it basically means I have to work but by asking me if I am available instead of flat out ordering me to work, it at least gives the impression that he cares about my life outside of work.  This guy does care about life outside of work.  One time his skipped a late evening conference call to attend church.  The plant manager was not too happy about it.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I should not have to plead with someone to do their job- if it is their job- as a special favour to me.  Not doing your job willingly and competently is most discourteous to your competent and motivated colleagues!

Working outside normal business hours might be part of your job description, and an implied part of your compensation.  If it isn't, all a boss can do is ask, with no expectation of compliance.  If the O/T is compensated, though, that polite "ask" should probably be understood as a command.

A "thank you" is elementary human courtesy.  Sometimes busy people forget to be courteous.  We've actually tried to make a "thank you" an official part of each major project.  It not only makes the place more pleasant one to work in, it also makes cold, hard economic sense by increasing harmony and productivity.

I'm not satisfied with mere courtesy alone.  My company gives me, and all my colleagues, a much more tangible "thank you" at the end of each fiscal year.  That's worth more than any pat on the back from the management or certificate of appreciation in a handsome plastic frame- it demonstrates a REAL, tangible appreciation for our efforts.

 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

At my utility, we had a 4% pay cut three years ago, have not had raises since, and we have been told that there will be no raises for the forseeable future.  Not only that, we have the most ridiculous cadre of "performance analysts" (we call them the Dilbert committee) constantly budding in to what we are doing.  

Meanwhile the engineers here do a very good job keeping our aging infrastructure in good repair.  One could get really pissed off thinking about this, but my boss said something that made all the difference during my last review.  He said that management has no idea really what the engineers do, and they don't realize that the integrity and dedication of the individuals is what holds this place together.  That statement greatly helped reduce my bitterness.  But when the economy gets better there better be something more tangible or people will start leaving in droves.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

MikeHalloran - I can beat your $35 gift card!

One year it was a ham.  Our Jewish vegetarian secretary got the same thing.  

(Aside from that, it was a great job, with challenging, interesting projects and decent pay.)

DRG

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I once moved across country for a job that turned out to be something quite different than what I ended up doing.  Not only that, but when I brought up that my responsibilities were not inline with my job description or work contract I was told "if you don't like it you can always leave."  So, I tried to make do.  However, that attitude of "love it or leave it" was so persistant that I couldn't even like it, so I did leave.  In the next 3 years I had 2 jobs and was laid off of both.

I now work for a young start up with potential and the normal amount of drama, but nothing so brutal as the "we don't care about you or how you feel" company.  Am I bitter?

I'm bitter at my work history and how it reflects on me.  I'm bitter that a crapy company lead to resume that makes me look like I lack dedication.  I'm bitter that society craps on engineers, pays us crap, and then blames us when the sheit hits the fan.

Still, as an engineer I AM dedicated to my craft and I am persistant in my persuit of understanding, improving, and learning.  This, you can't take away.  So no, I'm not bitter about work.  I'm bitter about the people that make my work difficuly, and I try to not be one of those persons to someone else.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Christmas bonus?

One year - one of the best years - we all got a jar of maple syrup.

A simple card would have sufficed.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Japher, you've said it very well indeed!

SNORGY- a jar of maple syrup I could have used!  In previous employ at one place I received a potted poinsettia each year at Christmas (the 4 year old's idea of what constituted a proper "thank you"- see the "worst boss" thread).  What the @#)* did they think a young engineer was going to do with a fricking poinsettia?  Eat it and put myself out of my misery, perhaps?

My first Christmas bonus here was an advance on a bonus I was not yet entitled to (I hadn't put in the first full year yet).  My expectations were low- perhaps a cheque just barely worth the trip to the bank to bother cashing it.  Turns out it was more money, besides salary plus OT and bennies, than I'd received in total in my entire career to that point.  No card needed, thanks!  

They say that money doesn't motivate, but those who say that miss the point.  Sure, money ALONE doesn't motivate- 5% more pay doesn't correpond to 5% more profit generated per employee.  But the respect that money implies, when properly conveyed, surely CAN and DOES motivate.

My intent here is not to brag- merely to point out what's possible, if you find the right place.  Too many of us put up with sh*t because we think that sh*t's the only thing on the menu!

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I can't pretend that I've been in need of hardship pay, but I've certainly had my soul sucked out by some previous jobs. I did sign up for some silly things, 1 year straight working 6/10's and rounds on the 7th day in Antarctica with no time off, but that was right out of college and I would do that again in a heartbeat, a real life defining experience brought to you by a Mechanical Engineering degree.  

Later, as a field engineer I was almost never home and at one point worked almost every day for a month, I had scheduled time home taken by linking trips together, and we had no comp or overtime policy, I got paid a straight salary. Eventually I had to request weekends off. One time when a trip home was re-booked to go to lovely Greenville, Mississippi I jokingly told the boss "There better be rockies tickets on my desk when I get home". There weren't, but honestly I think that would have been enough. They gave me an "above and beyond award" for working so hard but it didn't even come with like a $30 gift card to Applebee's or something. Not ONE TIME did the boss say "Nate, you've been busting your butt, take the afternoon off." The morale increase from little things like this is huge. A small gift card, a ½ day off, a rockies game, help a ton, if only for a short period of time. If hard work isn't backed up with money or time off though, people will only stay so long. When it came time for bonuses and raises and I got crapped on I split for oil and gas. They tried to match when I left but that's almost more insulting, little dinky raise and no bonus but now that I leave you guys can find the cash? Yeah right.

Wow, I guess I am a little bitter. Overall I feel that engineering has given me opportunities most people would never have. I've gotten to see some interesting places around the world and every corner of America on company dime. I've met people from all walks of life and I think overall I've picked up a lot of random information. Often times I encounter some facilities issue in O&G that I worked with back right out of college in a power plant, and I get a warm fuzzy. Thanks engineering!
-Nate

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

So here's a question.  Think back to why you first, way back, became interested in engineering.  What made you love it?  Why did you want to do that and not something else?  How can you bring that memory and passion back into what you do today, or what new job can you find that encompasses those reasons?

I have been reminding myself of my motivation repeatedly as my husband puts our babies to bed, plays with them all weekend, takes them to daycare in the morning, all so I can study for the blasted PE (20 days!).  Why do I care?  What makes all this misery worth it?  For me, it's because I'm going to use my PE and my job to help people have a safe place to live.  I'm going to make the world a better place.  Perhaps a bit starry-eyed, but that's what keeps me studying even when I really don't want to.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

If I was any more bitter about the work, I would be living on a diet of Quince...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I'd have to say that reading some of the negative stories on this forum makes me feel pretty fortunate.  Last year I got a pay cut.  By the end of the year my normal salary was restored and we got back-pay from the lost salary.  Based on last year's earnings, I got a bonus that was equal to 5% of my salary.  Soon after that I got a very good performance review and received a salary increase.  Overall, my salary today is 28% more than what it was when I started with the company 4 years ago.  I have also had the pleasure of working with supervisors and managers who are not afraid to give compliments and praise.  The good performance ratings and the salary increases add credibility to the praise.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Bonus ham only once?  That's not bad.  One year, the former Yugoslavia couldn't afford to pay cash for a plane they bought from McDonnell Douglas, so they bartered hams for the plane.  We got hams for every major holiday for about 2 years.

The current job, just past the 15th anniversary, is probably the best group of people I've ever worked with.  Not so much that any particular person is that much better, just that the group, more or less, is all going in the same direction at the same time, which is pretty usual for a lot of companies.  The GM knows the business, plays conservative, and knows that he hired us to do the job, and let's us do it.

TTFN

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Can I just check, do you all think Engineering is the only career/job that sees some of this behavior?

Based on conversations with lots of folks over time it seems that companies in all kinds of sectors - including some govt agencies etc, have at least some of the issues listed above.

So, once again, while there may be some trends etc. to a great extent I think, much of this is the specific job/employer, not the career/profession.

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

KENAT, I am sure there is the same bitterness in other professions, but not to the degree there is in engineering. Personally, I blame the way "professionalism" is viewed for engineering.

This board has many examples of people using professionalism to explain why you should work 60 hours a week, accept what you get for salary, do everything for the company you possible can, suck it up if you don't like your boring work (or another situation) or get a new job, etc. That is a pretty sweet picture that I am sure would make every bright student want to join into the engineering workforce, with the thought that you will be able to live comfortably (but not "rich").

I think the reality, for most engineers, is not exactly what was portrayed by counselors or professors. Yes, there are a quite a few people on this site that have found a good career path, with plenty of excitement in the daily work they do. Others have found that their position is filled with generally lack-luster projects, and a poor work environment. This is not always due to the employee, but also some to the companies who may not want to be a part of the next big thing because it is scary. Yes, I know – those people should move on. Of course, they should be "forced" to stick it out for at least a year so they look stable. Personally, I chose the greener grass in life, but feel the grass is dying on the work front. Like I said, I will work on that when positions become available.

I do not think that doctors would feel the same resentments. Sure, the work may get repetitive, but the client usually isn't yelling that they need the prescription right now, and they get to set their own hours and schedule their work load, and where overtime is needed, you share it through an on-call system. Not only do they get the responsibility of being professional, but they seem to get the respect of being professional.
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Ha ha TDAA, you obviously haven't known as many doctors as I have.  There are points during some of their careers they would have killed for only a 60 hour week as I recall.

Setting there own hours, patients not yelling... ?

You've been watching too many shows about Plastic Surgeons and the like.

Some Doctors do very nicely for a big chunk of their career, but then so do some Engineers.  

While on average they probably do get paid a bit more than Engineers there is variation.

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

"I do not think that doctors would feel the same resentments. Sure, the work may get repetitive, but the client usually isn't yelling that they need the prescription right now, and they get to set their own hours and schedule their work load, and where overtime is needed, you share it through an on-call system. Not only do they get the responsibility of being professional, but they seem to get the respect of being professional."

Really?  My wife was threatened with a lawsuit because she refused to sign off on a handicap license plate for an obviously non-handicapped patient.  Other patients simply want to use her like a drug ATM.  She's got whiny patients that save up day's worth of problems for a 15-minute appointment.  She'd working a minimum of 3 hrs at home doing charts, and her management just tells her to suck it up.  The management fires doctors at will; she thought maybe she would share the same fate as her predecessor, who was fired without cause after a year, or a colleague who was fired after 6 yrs, ostensibly for complaining about the junk charting software that their management is enamored with.

Again, this demonstrates that what appears to be green grass on the other side of the fence is often blades of plastic painted green.

TTFN

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Well, you guys have the bad side of medicine and the good side of engineering then.  In my family, they are definitely switched.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Sorry to hear that.  It may be something to do with what part of the country you live in.  There's a glut of family practice doctors in Southern California, so much that their wages are depressed by as much as 60% from some other states.

TTFN

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

We are spread around, somewhat.  My only family working in Southern California is in the tint business. He has done well.

Location is key.  I liked engineering better on the east coast than in CO.  I like living in CO, however, and am trying to find the right place to work. Now, I just enjoy my downtime way more than I used to making the best of what I can.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

There's no doubt that location can alter one's perceptions about one's circumstances.  I grew up in a city what was probably 300 days a year of overcast skies.

TTFN

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

TDAA:  as Tom Waits say in one of his songs, "The dog won't bite if you beat him with a bone".  That's the way I've seen "professionalism" used too often in our business- as a means to compel employee engineers to accept working conditions that no self-respecting tradesman would put up with.

Too many of us are willing to stand neck-deep in sh*t based on some quaint notion of professionalism, if posts to this "corporate survival" section of Eng-Tips are any indication of the prevailing attitude in our "profession".  

If we don't value our OWN services properly, nobody will.  And we'll have nobody to blame but ourselves for it.

I think TDAA has excessively romanticized medicine, just like the rest of society (and many engineers) seem to excessively romanticize engineering.  But what's the key difference between a medical graduate and an engineering graduate?  Per the last Council of Ontario Universities post-grad survey I saw, the average graduate of ANY medical program, from nursing to veterinary, was 99%+ likely to be employed two years after graduation.  The engineering grads were 20% LESS likely than the AVERAGE university grad- average of all programs including such stellar job performers as journalism and fine arts- to be employed two years post grad.  Most of the other professions limit access to their profession to at least approximate market demand, and hence have a HOPE of negotiating compensation which somewhat matches the value their services represent to society, or how hard the job is on the people doing it.   We don't even try- in fact we actively RECRUIT people to join our ranks- and we reap the consequences of that very questionable decision.
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Also, don't even get me started about the lack of protection of the term "engineer".  If you're going to call yourself "Dr", then you had better be an MD or have a PhD of some sort.  However, we have garbagemen calling themselves "sanitation engineers".  Until you end abuses like that you're also going to have a hard time getting "respect" for the profession of engineering

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

deadhorse
I think that subject has already been beat to death.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Nonesense, my wife just had a landscape engineer patient who was also a "doctor."

He "fixed" his broken ankle with some leftover concrete for a cast and sewed up a gash with some copper wire.  How hard can it be?  Aside from fixing the infection and chiseling away the cast to do an x-ray....

TTFN

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Thanks for the thread, KENAT, it was a delightful read!

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Yes, my description was a bit idealized, but then found it funny how two people taking the side of why not to bitter about engineering were so quick to point out the short-comings of of a medical career.

It is just individual perceptions being shared. Also, from the first line of my post: "I am sure there is the same bitterness in other professions, but not to the degree there is in engineering. Personally, I blame the way "professionalism" is viewed for engineering." It goes back to the dead horse. :)

In my opinion, right now, there is a big push to "cut back" on a lot of things.  For some it is salaries, for some it is hours or positions, and for most, the little things are gone too. The little things may not matter to a lot of people, but they do tend to boost overall moral. Chop that with "at-will" this and that and some "lucky to have a job", and you get bitterness.  This is not just my view, I here it quite a bit from the people I have had working for me. It just sucks to hear it when you are in a "my hands are tied" middle management position.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Why is it funny, so much of the whining above seems - to this not so bitter engineer - grass is greener thinking.  

The call is often that "other professions have it so much better than us" etc. and that's part of why people are so disgruntled.

We'll, we were just trying to point out that maybe not everyone in other professions has it as much better than us as some here seem to think.

Anyone would think half the respondents above were a bunch of Poms.

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

4
I have to admit that I haven't read all of the drivel above, I started to then my gag reflex kicked in so I jumped to the end.  I love what I do.  This is my third career and I enjoyed the other two, but I love Engineering.  Any day that I can't do Engineering (like when I have to do billing) I am less happy than when I'm doing Engineering.  If you don't feel that way then you picked the wrong career and should get out of it.

The Engineers that I know that are passionate about their work have to deal with nonsense from people who hate their life and want to make sure everyone knows it.  To the people who are "bitter about their work" I say "go the hell away and let the people with passion fix what is broke".

David

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

True, but as every dog trainer knows...

A little bit of "bitter apple" is sometimes necessary to prevent the dogs from peeing on your stuff (or you, for that matter).

Not that I'd know...

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

zdas - good post

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I originally went to school on a philosophy scholarship. If engineers think they have a reason to be bitter, try being philosophical about washing dishes and eating dog food the rest of your life. As soon as I learned that mechanical engineers spend a lot of their time calculating head, I changed majors. Be grateful you are not spending your time in front of a cash register with picture of hamburgers, french fries and lung butter instead of numbers.

 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

The creative aspects of my job more than outweight the frustrations that always seem to present themselves.  When they do, refocusing on the problem, or life in general and how small that initial frustration is in reality, usually helps me overcome them.  Life is too short to be so miserable.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I don't think it's so much whining, as much as the older ones of us who have realized that they miss the old days when they did actual design and used their imagination and provided the best they could for a design/calculation/whatever.  

As good engineers progress in their careers, they get more and more management tasks thrown in to the point where there is no time to do the detailed design, or have a clear hour to just sit down and come up with ideas and strategize.  That now has to be delegated, and one loses some control over the process and eventual product.  

Add into the mix the increased level of communication media - e-mails, cellphones, and the expectation from Clients and other management types that the senior people "need" to be on call and available to solve other people's screw-ups instantly. It's the general increase in overall workload, communications distractions, and all the other related irritants like building inspectors that have power and no responsibility, Architects and Clients changing things and expecting us to suck it up and work all night to make the deadline that someone else dreamed up in a place where everything works perfectly, and there were no changes; the corporate world general administration issues that suck up more time from the fun times (who wants to start a thread about Timesheet programs from hell...?) etc.

At this point in my career, I am entertaining a demotion to go back into more design roles and get off the management track.  Some people can do management, I've learned I can't.  The $$ aren't important if you work 60 hour weeks and spend what spare time on the weekend you have recovering/sleeping and not able to enjoy family and hobbies.  For those of you that enjoy that kind of workweek, good for you, but don't use your own desire to work long hours as a measure of "success" or superiority.  Those are measured many in many different ways.

I think a lot of the posts above have roots in the overwhelmingly high expectations people have of engineers,  the corresponding low salaries and remuneration, the over-abundance of communication media we now deal with, and the lack of recognition of the efforts needed in today's world to get things done efficiently - we spend way too much time receiving, reading, forwarding, and dealing with e-mails with 200 page attachments that somebody wants reviewed "right away".  Basically forcing us into a "fly by the seat of the pants - sound-bite" method of dealing with the huge amount of communications, and all the other people who got copied with the e-mail that now want to add their 2 cents worth.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

GMcD:

Star.

I'm bitter about a lot of things at work, but I try to see the humour in it.  I suppose if I ever got too fed up, I could go out and become an accountant or even (*GASP!*) an MBA if I wanted to become the corporate top-dog, immune to the pressure of being professional, billable, employable,  or even remotely useful; but I guess I am not quite *that* bitter.  The other way to look at it is, I suppose if I wanted to make more money than "#87", all I would need to do is pick up a hockey stick and go do what he does.

We make our choices.  I guess for whatever perverse reason, I still choose engineering (perhaps, alas, somewhat stupidly).  I guess there is just something magically satisfying in knowing how things work and, for whatever isn't known, being able to figure out how things work, and then turning that into something that works.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

"Bitter at work" is just another way of saying bitter about life. Life is short, you and you alone are in conrol of your happiness and how you respond to the situations you are presented with in life. Count your blessing instead of being bitter.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

My post from earlier today vanished, but one of the main points was that no generalization is valid about whether engineers are justified in being bitter.  Some, like me, have, by luck and/or skill, ended up in very good jobs more than once.  I'm not bitter, and I should be slapped upside the head if I were.  Others have gotten (dumped) upon, and I'd probably be bitter about it too if I were in their shoes.

I suspect one reason my first two jobs after college were good is that both consulting firms were run by PhDs who were really into their work and sought out the challenging projects for the fun of it (as well as the profit of course).  They didn't want to crank out CBR tests or design slab-on-grade for residential construction.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

In a better mood than when I made my last post:

Engineering has given me some great friends who I've met through work, paid for a nice house, given me the ability to fix things most people have to pay others to fix, and I don't have to kiss ass all day just to hold down a job.

Engineering ain't so bad. smile
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Today was a day worth going in for.  It rained on me on the cycle ride in.  But the day was a mix of technical niceties, plus some head-scratching theoretical problems to work through and one or two OEM clients to assist through their problems (always good for the ego).

Not bitter.

- Steve

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

dgillette has it right: there are some people that are in situations that make them bitter, now more than ever.  It is not just a snap of the fingers that can make that change right now.

I wish I lived in the perfect world that some of you do, but I don't, and not all of us can.

Personally, I did not respond to this post to get sympathy, or to get told to suck it up.  I did it to vent about how I felt 21 days ago.  It was therapeutic for me, and answered the OPs question, as many others have: Yes, others are bitter about work, too.

To the people who think "go the hell away and let the people with passion fix what is broke" I say " you go the hell away stick your passion where the sun . . .". Just because people are bitter doesn't mean that they are not fit to be engineers. We are not all going to be happy 100% of every minute, hour, day, week, month, or year of our careers.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Don't think I ever claimed I rode into work on a unicorn and parked underneath a rainbow every day.

There are plenty of my posts on here with tales of some of my employers shenanigans some of which display my obvious annoyance.

However, all in all I figure it could be a lot worse, most of the grass on the other side probably only looks greener and until I can find something more idyllic (I am looking) I'll try and keep the best attitude I can though sometimes I don't do that well. The 3.5-4X salary increase sure makes it better than my immediately previous position in retail.

There's a really annoying poem about attitude that I see posted here and there, it's a bit too lollipops & moon beams for my liking but maybe if will be of use to some of you bitter folks.

By the way, I rather like Bitter, better than lager and almost as good as Stout (better in some cases).

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Ah, bitter.  I just hope the Red Lion is offering HSB tomorrow (Thursday is the new Friday).

- Steve

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

KENAT, not really aimed at you.

We actually agree completely on two things:

Quote:

I figure it could be a lot worse, most of the grass on the other side probably only looks greener and until I can find something more idyllic (I am looking) I'll try and keep the best attitude I can though sometimes I don't do that well.

Quote:

I rather like Bitter, better than lager and almost as good as Stout (better in some cases).

I just am not sure how some can think "How dare you have a bad day, or not be happy with where you are right now? You are an Engineer!", when they have not walked a mile in the others shoes.

Yes, that poem is annoying, but it is right.  My reactions , and thus attitudes, change frequently.  I believe my latest reaction will be to stop posting to this thread, finish what I need to do, go home, and have a pint.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

High Speed Brainrot - yuck.

Not sure if Zdas' was posted at you or not TDAA, there's been some pruning of this thread, however their were some posts that sounded like the folks were so miserable (and intent on foisting that misery on others) they really would be better of elsewhere - even if it just meant at least they then wouldn't be dragging the rest of us downwinky smile.  Either way, suggesting he stuff it up his fundament & some of the pruned posts are/were in my opinion inappropriate.

Not sure I'd go as to say it's right but the poem is maybe at the other extreme of where some of the 'bitter' folks are, if we could all just agree to meet nearer the middle...

Have one for me.

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I am a young engineer who has been interested in keep plants running well but not interested in design work.  After only 4 years I have lost interest in being a member of the technical side.  We are the ones who work the long hours and do all of the grunt work and get paid the least.  I would rather be a manager and make more money.  The way engineering has changed in my company has caused a lot of the passion of engineering to be lost.  Now the young engineers are more concerned with maximizing their salaries rather than becoming good engineers.  

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

TDAA,
I don't know you.  You don't know me.  Looking at your profile I see you've been around a while and have gotten and given some little purple stars.  That doesn't qualify you to tell me or anyone else to go away and certainly doesn't qualify you to tell me to do something obscene with an abstract concept.  Not sure that I would even know how to "stick my passion" any particular place.

Life is short.  We're only sure of doing it once.  Why would you spend 1/3 of your day being unhappy and miserable?  If you can't love it (and you do have absolute control over your attitude) then you should stop doing it.  Simple as that.  I had two careers prior to this one, and didn't love either one so I changed.  Found one I loved.  I'm sticking with it.

Have a nice life.

David

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

zdas04

Yet you believe you are qualified to say "go the hell away" while other are not?

How does that work?

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

There seems to be a lot of overinterpretation going.  What most people are saying is not that you should be happy being an engineer, it's that you should be happy doing something that makes you happy.  


If engineering doesn't make you happy, at least reasonably often, then, yes, you're in the wrong job, simply because it's making you miserable.  I can't imagine wanting to do something for the rest of my life that makes me miserable.  That just does not compute.

TTFN

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Apsix,
Pretty well, I think.

David

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I admire my wife.  At 16, she couldn't have a dog.  She moved out from home and the neighbourhood and got a dog, then put herself through school.  She has trained, bred, shown and competed with dogs as a profession for the past thirty years.  She has never known what "work" is in the negative sense - she just found her passion and spent every day thereafter living it.  She's not rich but she's not bitter.

After being embittered for a few days over all of the obscene hours I was working recently, I took my own dogs out and did a practice.  They both ran flawlessly as if it was the day after a Nationals, and were both quite happy to accept a chunk of Rollover and chase a Frisbee for their efforts.  In fact, *they* thanked *me* for letting *them* play (or "work", depending on your definition).

Then I drove to the audio store and blew a couple of paycheques on mid-to-high-end audio components.  Earlier this week, we looked at acreages for sale.

I guess that has grounded me somewhat over the past week or two, and reminded me of why I "work".  But a good marriage, dogs, space, and Pink Floyd - with beer, of course - do combine to take some of the edge off of the bitterness I feel.

So, engineering may never be among my "passions", but at least it has contributed towards funding the other things that are.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

If anyone expects everyday to be perfect and nothing to annoy them then they will always be bitter no matter what.

Two thirds of the world population live in poverty, many without even the basic needs like running water, food and sanitation let alone large salaries. So already we are "lucky", being an engineer will put you well up the final third, even if you don't like the job you do or the people you work for.

Happiness or bitterness are a state of your mind, we all earn more in a week than entire towns or villages in some countries but probably less than Bill Gates earns every time he passes wind, who you choose to measure yourself against will go a long way to determine how content you are.

We all on here have an education and the ability to change our lives if we so desire, if people still feel bitter chances are they always will no matter what else they have.
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

PERSPECTIVE

Having a somewhat annoying day at work when I get the call that the one year old had eaten one of the dog's hip medicene tablets.  Go to the children's emergency room, all is fine no stomach pump or even the charcoal bottle required.

While bidding our time during the observation period, we see a 5 year old come in who we later learn has a brain tumor saying "Mommy, I don't want another IV".

I am not bitter.

IC

 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

One thing is apparent.

For a rather honest and not in any way offensive original post by shadow401, the ensuing thread has attracted a lot of attention and passion from the embittered and non-embittered alike.  Curiously enough, the "non-bitter" population within this thread appear to be the most passionate and, in my opinion, at times some of them border on being needlessly defensive and adversarial; certainly judgemental.  Hence - presumably - the moderating that has been stated to have already occurred within this discussion.

Again - just my opinion - maybe those who are bitter can reflect a bit more and try just a bit harder to put a spin on things that helps make them less bitter.  When that fails - as in some instances it evidently has - perhaps those who are not bitter can try just a bit harder to be empathetic and help those who are experiencing some bitterness and are only asking for feedback from their peers.

Us telling each other to go away and / or to insert foreign objects up their rectum might have its place - for example, during the administering of a suppository or a colonoscopy or even in some alternative lifestyle scenarios - but this might not necessarily be a place for suggestions of that nature.

Well...unless of course you're an accountant or an MBA or something...

Not that I am in any way bitter...   

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

... or banker.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

ajack, we don't always see eye to eye but nice post.  I think I implied similar if not here then another post about the poor pay of engineers or something.

I don't fully understand the modern obsession with 'loving what you do'.  At the end of the day we work to earn money to buy the things we need - food, shelter, clothes...  If you can find something you love that you can make a living at great, however if everyone was off doing the more pleasant/enjoyable jobs we'd probably all be worse of because there'd be no one doing some of the less pleasant ones.

I wonder if cave-men had the same complaints between the hunters and the gatherers?

It seems a lot of this bitterness is caused by what we choose to compare our own situation with.  Of course, in some respects if comparing with what we perceive to be 'better professions' we might start to covet them.  This would be one of the big ten Judea-Christian no-no's, so anyone that claims to follow those teachings knock it offwinky smile.

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

I don't know that it should be "curious," but certainly, it must be difficult to be "passionate" while bitter, so it shuold not be surprisngly that non-bitter people can be passionate.  To some degree, you have to be somewhat passionate to be spending this much time here, or simply bored out of your gourd.  But the latter case would not be passionate.

TTFN

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Oh, and as engineers, we need to be more precise about requirements.  No sunshine does not specifically require insertion into a body cavity, it just needs to within the butt crack, unless you're a plumber. winky smile

TTFN

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

So...which is the more bitter?

The water from the black pot, or the water from the black kettle?

No matter.  I prefer beer.

Sometimes I even put bitters in it.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

OK, one last one, be cause I should.

First off, as one of the "bitters", I took zdas04's comment to "get the hell out" to be directed, at least somewhat, at me, and told those that believed that to stick it.  Even IR in his call for precision missed the fact that the location to stick did not necessarily require a lack of sunshine.

If the term "stick it" is to rough for you, perhaps you should go here http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=268345&page=1 and answer "YES"

It was not my intention to offend though, so I apologize if I did.

The reality is that this tread turned into a US political debate, loosely following gay marriage. One side feels one way, and the other feels passionate about keeping you from feeling that way, even though it really does not effect them.  No matter what, it is not an argument that someone will win.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

The way I see it, if someone is bitter at work, we are all human working together. We have the power to make our own lives better...do something about it.
We live in the 'sensitive era' now, time to put our foot down and do something about it.
If he/she is not happy, transfer to another position or find a different company. Better yet, turn off the texting/IM/email and actually 'talk' to someone to work out the issues.
My 2 cents...

Chris
SolidWorks 09 SP4.1
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

bitter about the job, no I love it. Bitter about the fact I have 10 years experience but get paid the same as the first year grads just out. So overall bitter about the career I am in. No jobs around my area, can't move (missis job, kids in school, house sales are flat etc etc). Thanks for ruining the economy Labour and Gordon Brown. So yes I am one of the bitter ones. If your not great but don't tell us all what we should be feeling. You can be bitter about engineering and still be enthusiastic and good at what you do.   

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

My bad, but "stick it where the sun..." is an open invitation to interpretation, so the call for precision is still valid.

This issue now is really about whether one should succumb to the "nattering nabobs of negativism," to reuse a political phrase, and wallow in a morass of self-pity for choosing such a horrible profession, where everyone else but you is a simpering and lazy idiot, and all the management have built in logic-inverters.  The fallacy here is in thinking that all the simps and logic inverters are concentrated in engineering; I would think that the spectacular crash of Lehman Bros, etal, proves that idiots abound in the world, and that you should divorce the people aspect from the engineering aspect.  

And bear in mind that had you NOT been an engineer, you might still be trapped in a job you don't like, or worse yet, not even have a job to complain about, so you'd be up the crick no matter what.

I think this debate not a political one, but is more like the day before Thanksgiving, where some people have lost their way to seeing anything at all to be thankful for and can only see what they think they should be envious of.   

TTFN

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Before you become a mere quitter,
Try to become just less bitter.
For proper decorum
In this esteemed forum,
Continue discussion on Twitter.     

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Have another start, Snorgy.  I hear they go well with beer, by the way.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Exactly, IRstuff...well said.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

This reminds me of the great "less filling" vs."taste great" debate. Most electrifying issue since Smeltum vs. Deltum.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Remember that commercial:

"WHOA!  BITTER BEER FACE!"

Yep.  That's me.

But...it's still beer, so it's worth it.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

i think if you quit your job now because you're "bitter"... then try to get another one you may have a different perspective

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Hey, I am passionate *and* bitter.  I'd be less bitter if I weren't passionate, because then I just wouldn't give a crap.

Hg

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Well put, Hg.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

As someone mentioned, I think it is a "grass is always greener on the other side" case. It applies to all aspects of life too, even where you live. I was unemployed for a long time before finally working again, and now I sometimes find myself remincing about my unemployed time (because of all the time I had to do stuff I like, yet while I was unemployed I was longing to work and envied those who had any job. I also sometimes look at people who are in less stressful, less demanding jobs that pay more, and wish I had their jobs, yet I know if I did I would look back and wished I had my curent job lol.

It applies to all aspects of life because in everything you do there are pros and cons about your position.Nothing in this materialistic world we live in can truly be satisfying.

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

And don't forget that not everyone is suited for every job.  While we might envy the salaries that surgeons get, their actual professional lives can be quite limited, due to physical limitations that might not even be noticeable to us.  

Additionally, it's not uncommon for surgeons to not even start earning serious money into their 30s:  4 yrs college, 4 yrs medical school, 7 yrs residency, 2 yrs fellowship = 35 yrs old when they actually start in a practice.  And while they do exceedingly well from then on, they pay high malpractice insurance, and usually feed a literal truckload of support staff.  The last time I had a surgery, the two surgeons in the office had a support staff of about 15 people.

TTFN

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RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Very true IRstuff. My dad's a doctor and some of the stuff he does like operating in people's bums makes me happy I'm not him although he makes (or made as he is semi retired) some insane money. Thwere is stress in everything and often times that leads one to become bitter.

Heck it wasn't that long ago when I was in school and I was longing for the day that I would work, make good money, and not always have to take my work home with me. Now that I am working I miss school and the days of having fun with friends, not always having to go to classes, and attending classes for well below 8 hours a day lol!

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

Wow, can't believe I just saw this thread.  Seems to have been very active.

I know I was much more bitter when I was unemployed than I am now.  

MaterialsDude - you are certianly right about the grass being greener.  I think it's just part of the Human Condition.  

Remember folks, there's always someone out there who has it harder than you!  Chin up!

RE: Is anyone else bitter about work?

so true man!

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