Toyota Recall
Toyota Recall
(OP)
Hello. I am new to the forum and had a rather extensive question. I am wondering what system is causing the sudden acceleration problems in Toyota vehicles as well as the specific part in that system, if any specific part is respoinsible. I was also wondering, depending on the system involved in the problem, whether the problem is electrical, mechanical, or a problem in the vehicle's software. Thank you for any responses.





RE: Toyota Recall
If we or anyone knew the answer to that question, it would solve an interminable amount of arguing.
The short answer is that no one knows.
The slightly longer answer is that floor mats were an issue in some cases, and a mechanically "sticking" accelerator pedal may have been an issue in some other cases, but there are still an ample number of situations out there for which "sudden unintended acceleration" reports exist, but floor mats weren't an issue and the vehicles weren't equipped with the particular accelerator pedal sensor under recall.
A certain Professor Gilbert claimed to have found a situation in which the pedal sensor could be bypassed to cause a situation that looks to the car's computer like full-throttle acceleration, but Toyota hired an engineering firm which has pretty much showed that the circumstances created by the professor were all but impossible to occur accidentally in the real world. Keep in mind that you can deliberately and intentionally circumvent ANYthing if you have the right tools and experience.
That there are some sub-optimal situations in some or all of the involved vehicles, is known. Toyota has not been using an accelerator/brake interlock circuit that would override accelerator input if someone stepped on the brake. But, motor vehicle safety standards require no such system, so this is not a "non-compliance". The European manufacturers have been doing this because one of them has already had their round of "sudden acceleration" issues many years ago.
The push-button keyless engine start is a problem, because it's not readily apparent how to switch the engine off while moving.
But, there is a big elephant in the room that, for some reason, nobody wants to mention: operator error!
People stepping on the wrong pedal is every bit as much of an issue now, as it was in the late 1980's when this was a big issue the last time.
And, every single one of these "sudden acceleration" situations, even if they actually did happen and weren't the figment of someone's overactive imagination, could be stopped in its tracks by shifting the transmission to neutral.
My car has an instant engine disengagement device that is totally mechanical/hydraulic and not reliant on any software. It is called a "clutch pedal". Sadly, not too many Americans seem to know how to use one.
RE: Toyota Recall
I've given up on trying to figure out what is going on. Obviously I have some ideas that others on the forum share. I'm content, at this point, to see how politics saves the "good name" of Toyoda.
Rod
RE: Toyota Recall
For the record a number of accidents have been reported by drivers pushing the floor mat under the accelerator pedal. This resulted in a terrible accident in CA a few weeks back where four people were killed. Kicking the floor mat under the accelerator pedal is an operator error not a vehicle defect. People do this in many different makes of autos.
To help prevent future accidents from drivers kicking the floor mat under the accelerator, Toyota is retro-fitting their cars with a failsafe engine management system so that when a driver pushes on both the brake pedal and accelerator for more than a few seconds, the throttle is automatically returned to idle electronically, regardless of where the accelerator pedal is in it's operating range. Many car makers have had this failsafe system since cars began using Drive-By-Wire, (DBW), instead of a mechanical throttle cable.
Toyota has another situation where a limited number of vehicles have a sticky accelerator pedal. This is a defect and Toyota is repairing all cars with this problem. The problem is a mechanical one in the accelerator pedal assembly. This problem has occured in other makes also over the years.
The third issue is with the Toyota Prius hybrid vehicles. Some drivers report abnormal braking with these vehicles which use a regenerative electrical system based off of the brake system. It's complex and may or may not have a defect in it. It does operate differently than conventional hydraulic brakes and this may be what drivers are sensing? We will know more as the investigations continue.
Because most drivers have limited technical understanding of the complex computer based systems in an auto, many have proclaimed that the "black boxes" are possessed and that they take over control of the vehicle and cause unintended acceleration. This has never been substantiated and is typical speculation and lack of knowledge at work. Toyota has agreed to open the "black boxes" for all to see and has agreed to as many independent investigators as the Feds feel is necessary to confirm the only problem is with the sticky mechanical accelerator pedal on a limited number of vehicles.
Naturally if a driver crashes their car they want to blame someone else and the siren chasers are out in full force. Like the Audi unintended acceleration of the 80's I expect that when the dust settles Toyota will pay out Billions in damages for driver errors and that no one will ever be able to prove unintended acceleration happened, because it probably didn't.
Sticking throttle pedals are dangerous but the brakes will stop any modern vehicle if properly applied even with the throttle wide-open. Numerous auto industry experts have tested and conformed this on the Toyota models, so if the throttle sticks, a driver most certainly can stop the vehicle by properly applying the brakes.
The latest episode in the Toyota hysteria is a Prius owner who claims today that he Prius took off on it's own and was doing 94 mph on the highway in CA. He claims the brakes would only slow the car to 55 mph and that placing the shifter in neutral did not disengage the power to the wheels. A police officer got his vehicle in front of the Prius and had no difficulty slowing the Prius while telling the driver over a loud speaker to shut the engine off - which he eventually did. You would have thought the driver might have considered that before he called 911...
RE: Toyota Recall
I am truely amazed that the electronics systems in any device work as good as they do. But we all know about the occasional lock up of our PC's that we use daily if for nothing else comming online to sites like this.
With the ever increasing densitys of discreet electronic components, where insulation separation is in the nano world of a molecule or so, I'm really surprized there are not more problems occuring. Electronics has its place, but I think the manufacturing world is going crazy with it.
High heat, high vibration, high moisture, and dirty places are just not a good place for electronics especially when lives are at stake. I remember reading someplace on this site about the current Toyota problems and how some here said they wouldn't design a machine without a big red emergency stop button, I fully agree, problems are if Toyota did that they would most likely still have it go through a computer to shut things down. The right way to do it is cut all power to everything, but then theres another problem, the day is comming where every system in the vehicle will be electrical - electronic, and if you shut off all the power then, you would have nothing, no steering no braking no nothin, ya couldn't even open the doors or windows. Can't we see how crazy this is getting?
Things need to change, and go back to the past when reliable systems existed.
RE: Toyota Recall
Some things are expected. The pedal on the far right is the accelerator, the pedal next to that is the brake, and for some people, the pedal next to that is the clutch. Directional control is via a somewhat vertical wheel that is rotated clockwise to go right, counterclockwise to go right. Shift patterns are essentially standardized, with Reverse for manual shift being the only odd man out. The control stalk at the left hand operates the turn signals.
Why does something else similarly important (especially in an emergency) need to be different for difference's sake?
I'm not specifically slamming Toyota, here, as there are certainly other makes doing strange things to controls that should be free of question. (Jaguar, I think, has a rotary knob shift lever that disappears into the console when the vehicle is off, for example)
I can understand the push for wanting to do away with cables and linkages and hydraulic connections. On the other hand, the driver's air bag could be simpler if the steering wheel didn't have to rotate - it could use a compressed-gas canister instead of an explosive.
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
With full throttle (accelerator to the floor), the initial braking is just resistance against the engine as in any car, but as brake force is increased (doesn't take that much pedal force) it transitions into a mode where the throttle starts backing off on the engine to near zero...
As you roll to a complete stop (accelerator still on the floor) engine speed will increase slightly, just enough to know it still pulling against the brakes.. but the engine is no contest against the brakes nor is it trying hard while you still have your foot on the brakes.
Take your foot off the brakes and it goes back to full throttle, since the accelerator is still on the floor..
Now the question... how many people are going to get confused with brake over-ride???
Perhaps the safest car is the solution Jay Leno jokes about.. when you press the accelerator, nothing happens.. the car doesn't move.
RE: Toyota Recall
When it comes to the Toyota issue, a simple transistor would of saved lives. all throttle signals go through this transistor when the brake is pushed it puts power to the transistor turning off the gas! Leave throttle cables on there Performance cars for power braking and Heel Toe Shifting...
RE: Toyota Recall
I highly doubt the black boxes are the issue but we'll see what the investigations show. In my experience about 95.367894291326 % of U.S. drivers should not be operating a motorized vehicle because they lack the proper skills, training and knowledge which results in accidents, injuries and fatalities. Maybe all car makers should be forced to place a large label on the windshield in front of the driver stating: THE BRAKE PEDAL IS NOT ON THE RIGHT !
<LOL>
RE: Toyota Recall
So, how many people would panic and just step on both pedals harder exaberating the problem?
I read one report with a table holding some of the complaints. There was a lot of complaints that basically read "as I turned into a parking spot the car took off" reported. Sounds to me they should read "as I turned into a parking spot and tried to brake I accidentally stepped on both pedals and cause the car to take off".
I've done it in my car a few times(a GM model). In those cases, I found the extra throttle would over ride the extra braking as I stepped further on the pedals and the car would not slow down. It's drive by wire as well, but I'm not losing any sleep over it acting up.
RE: Toyota Recall
Most of the weird stuff is no doubt software related. There are any number of issues that can cause this - integrator windups, data value overflows, an A/D error from the accelerator signal, etc. all of which would be somewhat surprising in the abstract. However, since there is clearly an issue here, I expect that something like one of those issues will eventually be found.
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
RE: Toyota Recall
That's a bold statement, and seems to be unsupported by facts. I have a regular-size female friend who isn't strong enough to screech the tires by stomping the brakes in her altima - we tried it repeatedly one day - she figured it was because they were "antilock" until I demonstrated what would happen if I stomped on them. You're telling me that she could brake hard enough to rapidly overcome full engine power, starting at speed? I doubt it. Then there was the case of the CHP officer who crashed... you're saying that he just hadn't thought to try the brakes?
RE: Toyota Recall
But these guys didn't really find much of an issue
ht
"Certainly the most natural reaction to a stuck-throttle emergency is to stomp on the brake pedal, possibly with both feet. And despite dramatic horsepower increases since C/D's 1987 unintended-acceleration test of an Audi 5000, brakes by and large can still overpower and rein in an engine roaring under full throttle. With the Camry's throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that's a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry's throttle closed. "
It doesn't mention what pedal pressure they used.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
The oversized engines available in North America may be part of the issue here. A Toyota Yaris 1.3 or Toyota Aygo 1.0, which are more typical Toyotas sold in Europe, doesn't do ANYthing "suddenly".
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
And ... you can always shift to neutral.
RE: Toyota Recall
there's a lot of factors that go into it, yes a 2010 brand new v6 Camry with brand new brakes and new fluid and a experienced male driver behind the wheel will probably be fine in the end. Its the few year old models that probably wont.
RE: Toyota Recall
I'm not going to jump to the conclusions yet, all this is still 'second hand' and/or media driven. This very well may turn into the "Audi unintended acc" witch hunt...I hope not. I will say, as with the Audi deal, there will be some substantial changes in the way our cars can be shut down in an emergency situation. I'll guess a master kill switch.
Rod
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
If you can stand up, you can apply a very large amount of force to the brake pedal with both feet, especially if you're pumped full of adrenaline.
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
It is a direct Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards violation to be otherwise.
RE: Toyota Recall
that doesn't strike me as a very convincing argument against "it wouldn't shift."
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
FWIW, I and others have actually tested numerous vehicles at WOT to see if they could be stopped with reasonable brake effort and all of them could including the Toyota Lexus involved in the CA accident. Most of the car mags have also conducted their own test and seen the same results.
Yes an auto trans does downshift as you are braking and yes the torque multiplication increases and yes even then you can stop the vehicle with the brakes but of course it requires more pedal pressure than normal - which is why some people report the brakes "didn't stop the vehicle". They aren't aware that more pedal pressure is required when the engine is running at open throttle.
Pumping the brakes will eventually use up the brake boost and require even more pedal pressure and that is why people are told to firmly apply the brakes and not pump them. Even at WOT all cars have a reserve of boost assist at first so the brakes most definitely will stop if applied properly. In the case of the CA accident the officer rode the brakes for miles before they finally burned out. The rotors were glowing red with sparks flying off them while he drove which confirms they were functioning. He also failed to shift the trans into neutral or shut off the ignition which proved fatal...
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
Brian, I'm sorry, but in the instances where there is NO mechanical connection with the transmission, where all control is through the ECM, failure to engage is a DEFINITE possibility.
I dislike absolutes. I'm not too crazy about extremism's either. I try to NOT throw a blanket over an entire industry's problems, hard as that may be. Having built and raced cars since 1958 and been around them longer than that, I have seen "the impossible"...at least a couple times.
Rod
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
But the guy who drove his "sudden-accelerating" Toyota (or Lexus? forgot) to the dealer by shifting between drive and neutral to demonstrate the problem, and countless videos on Youtube of people demonstrating what happens when you shift to neutral at full throttle on a variety of Toyota vehicles, suggests that at least by design intent, there is nothing stopping the vehicle from being shifted to neutral.
I don't dispute that there could be some sort of glitch that might be causing the engines to accelerate. But to simultaneously occur with a glitch that prevents the transmission from being shifted to neutral and prevents the ignition from being switched off and prevents the brakes from being used, AND YET the vehicle operates with all of these systems normally after inspection, sounds like a combination of things so remote in possibility that they would never happen together unless there is something deliberately causing this to happen.
A lot of parties including Toyota are defending the electronics as being more fault-resistant than mechanical systems, and I can't really dispute that. But what I can say is that programmable electronic systems are much more difficult to validate for proper operation than, say, a mechanical system, or an electrical switch that has mechanically opened contacts, or a direct mechanically operated hydraulic spool valve inside a valve body. I don't like the complete reliance on electronics for safety related systems. But it's hard to dispute that the most likely underlying cause, is driver error. (Or people abusing the system, trying to create a situation where they can file a lawsuit.)
RE: Toyota Recall
Rod
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
We are FAR from hearing the end of this. The problem is that as software becomes more and more complex, the probability of that software being absolutely error-free becomes lower and lower.
Should also note that Ford's hybrid system is every bit as software-dependent as Toyota's, since it uses essentially the same mechanical layout.
RE: Toyota Recall
The first time it happened it was a surprize, my reaction was to tap the pedal, and then push clutch in and key off, all with in micro seconds of each other, so yes the driver and skill plays huge in a situation like that.
As far as brakes stopping a car with WOT and at speed, maybe with the right driver and conditions, I would think someone would have a very difficult time after getting into fade due to the heat factor, I have been into that many times in years past, its like hauling a trailer twice the vehicle weight and without trailer brakes.
If these problems are not an electric and or computer fault, then it is something commandeering the system.
I have questions, did all these cars have ABS? What other systems are run through the PCM or BCM ? I remember hearing many years ago about ABS applying the brakes when ever without driver input, or cases where the driver hit the brake pedal and there where zero brakes.
Can the computers in these cars isolate the ignition switch?
Also I remember seeing a system that was created for police agencys, that gave them the ablity to shut off the engine fuel and ignition systems in a chase, so commandeering is not out of the question. Just curious.
RE: Toyota Recall
C&D's test seems like a good way of pointing out that in the general case of brake vs engine, brakes win, and EVERY car I have driven in the past month (X5, Fusion Hybrid, Edge,Highlander, assorted Australian cars) always allow you to select neutral, at whatever speed, at whatever throttle opening.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Toyota Recall
And therein lies the problem; complex software-based electronic systems are extremely hard to validate.
RE: Toyota Recall
I'm long "Toyota Lawsuits" if there are.
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
PC operating systems and RTOS systems used in DBW is comparing apples and oranges.
I would think that anyone who doesn't have a clue about RTOS could understand the concept of a dead man controls used on many locomotives.. You not hit button within required timeframe, train gonna stop via fully independent control system from main op control.
I first learned of same concept used in RTOS event driven code more than 30 years ago. Even your Ethernet adapter connecting your computer to a network has embedded dead man timers to kick the adapter off the network under certain circumstances.
So far as good old reliable cable and mechanical fuel control systems that many wish for.. in my driving experience.. will I've experienced the following...
Stuck throttle run away on a tri-power 389 Pontiac
(killed it with ignition switch): check
broken cable actuated clutch pedal: check
Failed cable actuated auto transmission shifter: check
Stuck wide open carburetor secondary butterfly: check
Stuck carburetor float literally causing gasoline to pour down over hot exhaust manifold: check
Failures to date with DBW: zero.
RE: Toyota Recall
Totally agree with you; however, I tired of this debate ages ago.....
MS
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
The DA systems behind these complex products would be above all things, the most interesting to see first hand, but understandable that this has alway been the most guarded of intellectual property.
Although there are a lot of specifics marked as proprietary and not disclosed in FSM Volumes 1 through 4 approximately 5000 pages for the Prius (my 19 pound collection of volumes only for the 2006 model, sorry), does remarkably disclose a tremendous amount of information on the monitor strategy, enabling conditions, malfunction thresholds, and fail safes in the system. I find the 471 page ES (Engine Control System) section in Volume 1 a particularly interesting read and also the 569 page HV section (hybrid control) in volume 2. btw I count 5 major processors on the BEAN bus and another 5 on the CAN, but I guess that depends on the defintion of major versus minor. Anybody can buy these documents for about $610.22 including tax and shipping :<)
The Oak Ridge National Lab tear down study published about 4 years is quite revealing on the electro-mechanicals but doesn't touch upon control except in the most basic aspect.
One of Toyota's patent descriptions on the power demand/energy storage/control algorithms is 92 pages long, and a good concept description. Compare to most, 4-5 concept pages seems typical.
I agree RTOS systems aren't so simple, nor are they the only technique, many favor Finite State machines implemented in program logic arrays as a simpler more verifyable design. Interesting to read a bit on Wind River Systems development of the Common Core System for the Boeings 7E7 Dreamliner and here on some of the work going on. http:
So far as the "must be EM theory", I think the level of discussion in this engineering forum could be more fruitful if it evolved more toward specifics on the standards and test practices and whether they are adequate. Anybody close to and a bit more up to date on the list of generally used automotive EMC/EMI standards and test practices than below?
CISPR 12 IEC Global X Radiated emissions and immunity 2001
CISPR 25 IEC Global X Radiated immunity 2002
ISO 7637 ISO Global X Transient immunity 2002
ISO 10605 ISO Global X X ESD 2001
ISO 11451 ISO Global X Radiated immunity 2001
ISO 11452 ISO Global X Radiated immunity 2002
SAE J551 SAE North America X Radiated emissions and immunity 1995
SAE J1113 SAE North America X Radiated emissions and immunity 1995
How would these or current standards compare for example to the applicable sections of Mil 461-E? or the standards that were used to test the Boeing 757 FBW and documented in the NASA/LLNL FBL/PBW Program Boeing 757 HIRF Test Plan?
The latter is not so out of line as cars driven in close proximity to some of the ground facilities used in testing the 757 e.g. Greenville, NC VOA station or Wallops Island Delaware or similar facilities could receive similar exposure levels..
I guess a major point of this post is a lot of what is being put in vehicles these days and seen with controversy has a very long predecessor history in related fields. And in engineering, many times the answers can be found outside one's own sandbox.
RE: Toyota Recall
Good joke.. I don't know.. How about: My Toyota is Spastic?
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
Basically, when you are up against people whose only rational argument is 'well I hate DBW because I want to be in control of my vehicle' you know you might as well be conversing with somebody who is straight out of Nottingham in the 1810's and a follower of King Ludd....
MS
RE: Toyota Recall
The CHP officer observed all this while driving at 90 mph next to the Cosmic Ray, Satan, Space Alien possesed Prius. The onboard black box data recorder and independent nhtsa engineers who inspected the Prius didn't find anything to support Mr. Sikes claims.
Wasn't their a CHP officer involved in a fatal Lexus accident a few months ago?
RE: Toyota Recall
Many of us have been on both sides of the DBW equation. No doubt, when you are creating a system for use by semi- or unskilled users, DBW allows many otherwise external and unpredictable parameters to be internalised and constrained within known and reasonable boundaries. From the user's perspective, however, his freedom to control the device has been limited, and in comparison to a non-DBW system, to an unreasonable degree. Having been on both sides of this, I am very sympathetic to both points of view. For a typical user, DBW is a better solution than direct mechanical control, whether they like it or not. On the other hand, a user such as Evelrod would never be well served nor satisfied with a typical constraining DBW system aimed at typical users (jetfighter FBW systems, for one counter-example, are a different story, to be sure).
RE: Toyota Recall
http://jal
RE: Toyota Recall
I'm not sure quite how anybody would know the optimum position for the throttle in consideration of dual independant cams, valve lifts, swirl valve, intake tuning valves etc etc.....
MS
RE: Toyota Recall
For the very same reasons, I do not like ABS on a race car. ABS simply CANNOT out brake me on a racing circuit...Indeed, ABS that I have had on a racing circuit have "given my heart a jump" on occasion....Not good for an old man, that's for sure!
I'm not anti tech. I am anti 'stupid driver', which, in my humble opinion (yeah, right), is the biggest problem with unintended acceleration in any car. Is this a uniquely American problem?
Rod
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
I hope you didnt think I was having a dig at you personally - I most certainly was not.
Just please dont start shouting: -
"I DO have a problem with ALL controls handed over to the ECM leaving me with the 'hope' that all this 'video game' stuff will work the way it is supposed to (and often does NOT"
Some of us have more 'career' in front of us rather than behind!
I guess my point is, in this consumer driven world, people want their cake, to eat it & not get fat. Which is why all these fancy engine technologies arise in the first place.
The difficulty is that all of these technologies, when brought together, simply cannot be controlled by the main input as throttle plate position. That is why DBW is now pretty much de rigeur. And technology is not standing still to let people catch up either.
Sure as night follows day a racecar with simple control systems, when properly driven, is as pure a form of driving as one can get - however, this set up is only good for one scenario, one car, one driver, one event and F all use on the street or in real life. Not only that you wouldnt be able to sell it for use on the street in most of the world.
MS
RE: Toyota Recall
http:
RE: Toyota Recall
Any truth in it?
"In a report earlier this month, The Associated Press found that for years, Toyota has blocked access to data stored in the "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden unintended acceleration. "
B.E.
RE: Toyota Recall
The fact that Toyota has not resolved this issue is no indictment, because they would be the first. Just call your (fill in the name) dealer and see if you can get the data downloaded from your car and you will see what I mean.
RE: Toyota Recall
Toyota said weeks ago that they would open the black boxes for all to see and as far as I can tell they have done so. That's how they determined this woman was not pressing on the brakes but instead was actually pressing on the accelerator. Same deal with the 94 mph runaway Prius in CA. The black box showed no effort to stop the vehicle, just light pressure on the brake pedal 250 times...
NHTSA engineers are the ones making these public reports so it's not Toyota, it's an independent group of experienced crash research investigators and engineers.
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
With all due respect to those looking forward to a long and fruitful career in vehicle controls, my own feelings run closer to Rod's. I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with DBW either, though the calibrations developed to suit the driving public at large may not be as good as they could be for high performance driving.
I'm a little familiar with recalibrations done to the current Mustang PCM, generally to suit the drag racers and street-driving dragrace wanna-be's. Quicker rates of throttle opening and elimination of a little dead-band just off zero pedal seems to be the direction that most take. As far as I'm concerned, that's off in the wrong direction if throttle modulation while cornering is what you're after.
The calibrations for other systems may likewise not favor performance driving. If they're set too conservative to suit less capable drivers, they can get in the way of drivers who possess better skills.
It may be that "video game" generations will have an easier time adapting than those of us somewhat "senior" folks. In some cases, it becomes a matter of having to unlearn skills that have served well for 40 years or more and replacing them with new approaches that vary from slightly contradictory to completely so. Even though I know intellectually what might be going on, I can't predict precisely how I'll cope with whatever somebody else has determined that my vehicle should be doing instead. I have come to expect certain "linearities" (curvilinearities?) while driving, and don't like being caught by surprise.
By way of postscript, my wife just drove the latest addition to the vehicle "stable" home last night. A Subaru 2.5GT Limited. Lots of power, lots of features, DBW, ESC, ABS, and brake assist that I know of. It's too soon to tell much, other than it being possible to shut the ESC off. The jury is still out on brake assist - if it isn't better than I am, its value is questionable, and if it is then I might get hit from behind.
One other thing - it has a clutch with which to deal with any unintended acceleration. Her choice, and strongly so having driven MT cars virtually exclusively for 40 years.
Norm
RE: Toyota Recall
Source?
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
Rod
RE: Toyota Recall
A "true crime" story from the trailer parks of Louisiana:
Local Sheriff gets "Onstar" heads-up call, reporting an accident in the Piney woods of North Louisiana. Unable to contact registered driver, the worst is feared.....armed with GPS coordinates provided by big brother, er, Onstar, the cops arrive at the Escalade, in a ditch, stuck up to the axles of the formerly shiny "22's" in red clay.
Further detective work reveals driver "Asleep at the wheel", open containers, two comatose co-perps, a sixteen year old girl, and 1/2 oz or so of reefer.
"Oh brave new world that has such people in it"
The adults are now safely ensconced on the 'Pea farm' not able to make bail, the girl returned to her parents.
No mention if the Escalade had unintended acceleration, and ended up in the ditch. I would bring up that possibility to my court appointed attorney, I think.
RE: Toyota Recall
Incidentally throttle pedal progression is a designed parameter even in cars with mechanical linkages, for instance compare a Merc and a Ferrari.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Toyota Recall
Or in the other direction (with a very specific individual example here), the 'before' and 'after' arrangement going from a carburetor-style cable throttle actuation vs a sector whose arc need not be circular nor whose instantaneous center need never be concentric with the throttle plate shaft. Made a significant improvement in the driveability of an aftermarket multiport EFI equipped (58mm x 2 throttle body) SBC-powered autocross car. Even in normal street use as well.
Norm
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
RE: Toyota Recall
I don't recall any.
Wouldn't the technology be similar?
RE: Toyota Recall