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dik (Structural) (OP)
8 Mar 10 15:16
from the PEO website FAQ:

Q13. How should I handle engineering drawings for which I'm responsible that include changes given to me by a third party not under my direction?

A. Known as " as-built drawings," these should not be sealed. Seals should be applied only in those cases where you or your delegate have visited the site, reviewed the project during construction, and have verified every change in detail. The changes must be clearly marked on the drawings and a note referencing the original sealed drawings should be attached. These documents are referred to as "record drawings" to distinguish them from "as-built drawings".

Record drawings verified in detail by the engineer and issued to a third party must be sealed.

Is this correct for most jurisdictions?  Any comments would be appreciated.

Dik
ishvaaag (Structural)
8 Mar 10 15:38
Certainly you don't sign anything you have not designed. Here (Spain) this is managed through "specific projects". Any changes to structural required you need to re-project and sign for compatibility, this falls under the responsability of the director of the works or if existing, of the structural works.Any parties sign everything of them, direct their part, and sign the end of their part of works. If you are the architect and required to give end to the works, you only give end to them when all other parties have given end to their respective areas of responsabilities. So is here.
bridgebuster (Civil)
8 Mar 10 16:28
From my experience, the terminology not only varies from place to place but also by the market sector, i.e. public & private work.

I work primarily in the bridge sector and found that the following terms are most common:

Conformed Set - the signed & sealed drawings that were put out for bid, including any sheets that were revised during the bid advertisement.

As-Built - prepared by the construction inspection staff that show any & all revisions. No additional PE seal is placed on the drawing. Generally, the changes marked on an As-Built are those that do not change the design intent.If during construction there is a substantial change to a design drawing is changed substantially the EOR issues a field change drawing.

Record Drawing - generally used for the final/approved shop drawing.


 
cvg (Civil/Environmental)
8 Mar 10 16:49
note that record drawings can be maintained and updated for years, long after the engineer of record for the initial construction is gone. These are maintained by the owner for his records and generally indicate any changes, repairs or updated information that is desired.

contractors often submit the redlined field drawings which are reviewed by the inspector. These may then be marked on a final "as-built" set at the end of construction. The engineer may be required to sign these but no additional stamps required.
kelowna (Structural)
8 Mar 10 16:53
It does change a lot from place to place.

In my most recient experience (Canada, bridges) there are Record Drawings which are really the As builts but not called that any more. They are signed and sealed, incorporating all changes during construction (obviously that means that the Designer agrees with the changes) and they superseed the IFC (issued for construction)set.  
dik (Structural) (OP)
9 Mar 10 9:16
Kelowna...
That's similar to the PEO requirement that to be sealed, the drawings must actually reflect what was *actually* constructed; this would include any changes in details, reinforcing, etc.

There doesn't seem to be a general concensus... amongst engineers or professional associations.

Dik
kelowna (Structural)
9 Mar 10 9:34
Agree, and that is a pain!

This is the typical issue that should be discussed with the client at te very beguining and reflected very clearly in the contract althoguh very rarely it is done.

In my case, the owner are ministries and they have very clear, definitive ideas of what they want and what they will accept.

To muddle things more, it is the issue of shop drawings being incorporated on the as 'As builts' or not. Oppinions on that are all over the map too.
dik (Structural) (OP)
9 Mar 10 10:44
It's my experience that this requires nearly full time supervision by the Engineer and most owners are not prepared to pay for this level of service.

Dik
JAE (Structural)
9 Mar 10 13:04
dik - you hit on the real issue.  For you to prepare "record drawings" after the fact in which you can "certify" that they are accurate, etc. is impossible.

What we do generally is take the markups by the contractor, our RFI/change order records, etc. and incorporate them in to a RECORD SET that is not sealed by a PE.  

Rather, we place a disclaimer on the plans stating that the information contained in these plans is based upon information provided to "yourfirmname" by "contractorfirmname".
JStephen (Mechanical)
9 Mar 10 14:06
I seem to recall a disproportionate number of disciplinary actions being reported dealing with As-Builts.  I supposed the moral is to be very cautious signing or sealing anything "as built" if you don't really know what was done.
CTW (Structural)
9 Mar 10 14:36
What is PEO?
dik (Structural) (OP)
9 Mar 10 14:45
Professional Engineers of Ontario (one of the Canadian provinces).

Dik
BAretired (Structural)
9 Mar 10 15:51

Quote:

Record drawings verified in detail by the engineer and issued to a third party must be sealed.

Is this correct for most jurisdictions?  Any comments would be appreciated.

I have never run into the situation where "Record Drawings" were required.  Under no circumstances would I seal them, given the level of inspection that is normally done.

Like JAE, I have received As-Built drawings from the contractor which I do not seal.  I never certify the work of a Contractor.  However, if the As-Built drawings indicate changes which affect the structure, I would consider it my responsibility to ensure that those changes are acceptable or that remedial measures are taken to make them acceptable.

BA

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