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Drawings as legal documents

Drawings as legal documents

Drawings as legal documents

(OP)
I'm doing research on the use of drawings as evidence in court. I would appreciate any information about such use in any engineering specialty. I'm especially interested in situations in which drawing errors or substandard drawings were an important factor in a legal decision.

Thank you very much fo your help.

RE: Drawings as legal documents

Please help me with this, The word "legal" gets used here when I believe, technically in many cases, the correct term is really more "recomended" or "prefered". I believe there must be a contract stating such, meaning (to me) it is the contract with an entity that makes ASME a legal issue and not just the existance of the standard itself. Is this incorrect?
Frank

RE: Drawings as legal documents

All documents are legal documents, in terms of their ability to haunt you in a lawsuit.

RE: Drawings as legal documents

Once ASME Y14.5-whatever-release is noted/invoked on the drawing, it becomes a legal compliance issue that will stand up in court.  Any deviation from the standard must be noted somehow, whether on the drawing or in some supporting documentation also invoked on the drawing, such as a corporate addendum.

I periodically get a student who says "OK, that's what the standard says, but we do it this way."  To which I reply, "That's fine.  You have now been taught the proper way per the standard.  Your participation has been documented.  If you violate the standard knowingly, you may be held individually responsible for your actions, either within your professional organization or the courts.  If you personally are comfortable with owning that responsibility, by all means do as you wish."  That usually ends "the great debate".  I've had managers come to me after they hear back from their employees, to tell me "Thanks.  We've been trying to get that across for a while."

Jim Sykes, P.Eng, GDTP-S
Profile Services  www.profileservices.ca
TecEase, Inc.  www.tec-ease.com

RE: Drawings as legal documents

A drawing is a visual representation of a contract whether a standard is mentioned on the print or not because of P.O. and contract law.  However, if a standard is mentioned (as it should be), there is a common language established by that standard, which makes reading the drawing much easier and less prone to debatability.  I've heard it once said that engineers and drafters are way under paid, as we have the same legal responsibility as a lawyer who (presumably) gets paid much more.

Matt Lorono
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources & SolidWorks Legion

&

RE: Drawings as legal documents

Kansas City Hyatt walkway collapse:

Original drawings called for an unbuildable configuration.

Contractor proposed an alternative configuration in a sketch.

Designer of record failed to note significant change in loading resulting from proposed change.

 

RE: Drawings as legal documents

There was a similar issue...I think it was with the Citibank building or something, where design was significantly changed during construction (welded joints instead of rivets, I think).  Building would've collapsed under tropic storm winds.

Matt Lorono
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources & SolidWorks Legion

&

RE: Drawings as legal documents

Quote (MechNorth):


Once ASME Y14.5-whatever-release is noted/invoked on the drawing, it becomes a legal compliance issue that will stand up in court.  

   Is a purchase order a contract?

   Billy Bob and Cousin Elmo's machine shop agrees to manufacture parts as per fabrication drawings.  You agree to pay Billy Bob and Cousin Elmo.  Your drawings state that the dimensions and tolerances are as per ASME Y14.5M-1982.  

   ASME Y14.5M-1982 effectively is a clause in a contract, is it not?

   If the drawings are shoddily done and Billy Bob and Cousin Elmo know what is good for them, they will not agree to fabricate as per the drawings.  They will promise to make a "best effort" at fabrication.  I assume that this provides you no protection in court.

   I believe we have had a couple of ISO9000 certified vendors refuse to fabricate to our drawings because of unreasonable tolerances.  The purchase orders wound up being very carefully written, to justify the vendor not meeting all the tolerances.   

               JHG

RE: Drawings as legal documents

edmario4,

   What is the context of your question?

   If the aforementioned Billy Bob and Cousin Elmo want their money, they will have to prove they fabricated the parts you ordered.  If your drawings are prepared correctly to the specified standard, then you can prove that the delivered parts did not meet specification.

   If your drawings are crap, your day in court is going to be messy.  You must do proper drawings.

   If the drawings are the work of some third party, and the court is required to make sense of them, then you have an interesting problem.  It is more interesting (in the Chinese curse sense) if the drawings are badly produced.  At some level of badness, you will have to recognize that even an expert witness is unable to interpret your drawings to the level of certainty required by the court.  

   It is too bad that (probably) there are no lawyers on this forum.  I am under the impression that civil courts have a much more lenient standard for evidence than criminal courts.

               JHG

RE: Drawings as legal documents

I believe that anything can be introduced in court as evidence, that is not the point, the goal is to win.  I also realize that the standard acts as law where it is stated on the drawing or required by contract of some type. Really, I guess my question is if it is not stated on the drawing is it really the law?
Frank.  
 

RE: Drawings as legal documents

For example, If my drawings say ASME Y14.5M-1982 and I do not want to accept the 1994 definision of feature of size  do I have too?
Frank

RE: Drawings as legal documents

Are there any signatures on the drawing?

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Drawings as legal documents

Yes,

RE: Drawings as legal documents

fsincox,
If you have a PO, your drawing is still part of the contract, whether it lists a standard or not.  The problem if the drawing doesn't list any standard is that there is no agreeable upon interpretation for the drawing.  That means any specification on the drawing can be brought into question.

Matt Lorono
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources & SolidWorks Legion

&

RE: Drawings as legal documents

I'm still not clear what the ACTUAL situation is, but here's what I've seen;

If the drawing says '82, then it is bound to the interpretation of the '82 standard; '94 & '09 have nothing to do with its interpretation as it is a definition frozen in time.  Think of it like reading Shakespeare ... you can't apply today's English linguistic rules to his original manuscripts because the words sometimes mean something entirely different now, and the phrasing is per that snapshot in time.

If the drawing says '82 and the PO says '94, then I think you're floating down a river of sewage without any means of propulsion.  Unlikely that the supplier will override the '82 on the drawing with another '94 note "per PO", so it would likely never be seen.

Jim Sykes, P.Eng, GDTP-S
Profile Services  www.profileservices.ca
TecEase, Inc.  www.tec-ease.com

RE: Drawings as legal documents

Jim,
Thank you, and where no standard is referenced? I suspect it is clear as mud. Can a 1994 definition of parallelism, position, etc, be applied to a drawing with a date of 1996 but looks like it was drawn to the 73 standard and no statements are on the drawing or PO?
Frank

RE: Drawings as legal documents

fsincox,

   Please note that the OP did not mention ASME Y14.5M-1982, I did.  I quoted the 1982 version out of sheer perversity.  

   If I agree to ship you parts as per your drawings, and you agree to pay me, then the drawings are part of a contract, and they must be unambiguous.  Drafting standards like ASME Y14.5 are a resource for achieving this.

   There is a reason for the very complex and inclusive language used by lawyers on contracts.   

               JHG

RE: Drawings as legal documents

If there is no standard referenced, the standard that would be used is the one where the person creating the drawing looses.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: Drawings as legal documents

Basically, Peter has the right idea.  In the absence of a documented standard, any reasonable interpretation as determined by a skilled practitioner (i.e. expert witness / sme) will be the basis of the decision.  

Dates on a drawing mean nothing, or more correctly almost nothing, as far as basis for interpreting the drawing.  Without invoking a specific standard & revision level, would you interpret concentricity by the ASME '82, '94, '09 or maybe one of the ISO releases, or CSA, or DIN, or JSA, or MilSpec?  Or maybe by your high school math definition of concentricity?  Without invoking a GD&T standard, there's no means (that I'm aware of) for referencing to datums, and no definition of what parallelism means in that particular context.  Basically, invoking a specific standard establishes the "Rosetta Stone" for interpreting that drawing.  Without it, it's like a Na'vi trying to speak Klingon without the benefit of Wikipedia or Google Translate.

Jim Sykes, P.Eng, GDTP-S
Profile Services  www.profileservices.ca
TecEase, Inc.  www.tec-ease.com

RE: Drawings as legal documents

Quote (PeterStock):

If there is no standard referenced, the standard that would be used is the one where the person creating the drawing looses.  

   Is that the law, or your opinion?  

   It appears that most people sitting in front of CAD stations do not understand GD&T, and make no effort to think out their tolerancing.  A witness, expert in the standards, is not really an expert in what such a drafter was trying to say.   

               JHG

RE: Drawings as legal documents

But if what the drafter was trying to say does not agree with the standard noted on the drawing, he loses.  I would think that the other approving signatories would stand to lose more, however.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Drawings as legal documents

"Quote (PeterStock):
If there is no standard referenced, the standard that would be used is the one where the person creating the drawing looses."

I was making the point that if your in court and the interpretation of your drawing is in question, it would be up to you to show that the other party is in error. If there is no standard in place, the standard would be the practice of the other party not yours. This is just my opinion, but I think it is reasonable.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: Drawings as legal documents

edmario4,
I really owe you an apology for hijacking this thread. I believe business people weigh the risks, business itself is described as taking a risk, a gamble. If I am to "judge by the fruits", as I was taught, I would have to say that outside of government and big businesses most companies are not really swayed by the "legal" fear factor all that much. "It just will not happen to me or if it does we can absorb it". This may be a legitimate position to take. I think from all the conversations here about poor drawings it should be obvious to all. In another forum there is a gentleman, Walt, who noted something like "businesses are exist to make money", I was shocked at first, I though what does this have to do with good GD&T. Then, I believe,  I realized what he was getting at.
Until GD&T just makes the job easier, faster, better not more complicated it will be avoided. There are some here that advocate not using it for the same reason. I have areas myself where I find it hard to justify from a buisness point of view, although not a legal one.
Frank  

RE: Drawings as legal documents

There's a lot of myths about GD&T that 90% of the engineers believe in.  Here's a list that I had to stave off just the other day when I helped another engineer to clean up his drawing:

-GD&T is not needed

[GD&T is usually more representative of design intent with cleaner drawings.]

-GD&T costs more or "I've been doing this for XX years and I've always seen GD&T raise the cost"

[For some reason, it seems there are a lot of people that think the CNC machines are magically less efficient when making a part from a drawing that has GD&T, even when tolerance zones for pos tols are bigger and the set up is exactly the same.]

-GD&T requires someone to know how to measure it

[Depending on how it is employed, GD&T allows for more methodology for inspection.  Vision systems or optical comparators do the same job on measuring holes regardless.  ...and no one had better be using calipers to find the center of a hole anyway!]

-GD&T requires the vendor to do more work

[See previous responses]

-GD&T over-constrains the part

[Only if someone applies it incorrectly, which can happen with linear dimensions too.  GD&T can reduce constraints by allowing for more variation within the design intent.]

Anyone where any others recently?


 

Matt Lorono
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources & SolidWorks Legion

&

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