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Experience vs Degree

Experience vs Degree

Experience vs Degree

(OP)
Hi

I went to a 2 year collage where I received a Diploma in Product & Interior design. However, I have now been working as an assistant structural engineer for 1 year now.
I have since enjoyed my work and learned a lot in the process. I work mostly with making CAD plans and 3D modeling. At times I have helped with calculations in staad or similar programs.

I am very curious however, what my prospects look like. Considering my education had nothing to do with engineering. And when could I expect any other company to be willing to hire me, if I decide to switch companies?

Thanks

RE: Experience vs Degree

I would class you as a structural engineer's assistant rather than an assistant structural engineer. I doubt that you would be doing much more than drafting if you changed jobs.

If you want to be an engineer you've got to get back to study. Have you asked your current employer about your prospects? Maybe they will sponsor you.

RE: Experience vs Degree

(OP)
What is the difference between assistant structural engineer and structural engineer's assistant? I figured it was the same.
I havent asked my employer, but looking around, it takes around 6 years before managing a project. And I think sponsor me isnt possible... Its not a big company

And wont I learn more by working? rather than going back to school?  

RE: Experience vs Degree

In one case, you are a junior engineer; in the other case, you're an engineer's gopher.

In any case, without an actual engineering degree, your future job prospects will be severely limited.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Experience vs Degree

Another "Education vs. experience" debate.  For every story about the gifted guy who can do it all without having gone to school, there are a dozen anonymous drudges who really do need to know the things they should have learned in school.

RE: Experience vs Degree

Tick: Are you suggesting that the "must go through my college notes" brigade are the anonymous drudges?

- Steve

RE: Experience vs Degree

Unfortunately, if you want to be licensed as an engineer and have any job prospects outside of a anomoly of a company that is willing to let you work as an engineer and train you without the requisite knowledge that comes with basic statics/dynamics/strength of materials/analysis, and a few design courses, you're going to need to head back to school.  

There might be a few states that will license you without a degree, but you need so much experience under a PE that it becomes a little ridiculous really.   

RE: Experience vs Degree

Engineering education is sort of like being give an big bag of tools and being shown how to use them.  Being a good engineer is having used those tools until mastery is reached.  You could pick up a few tools and figure out how to use them and even master them, but without the degree noone will let you into the guild hall.  Am I being too anacronistic?  It's just to suggest that both college and experience are needed.  The college gives you exposure to many different sets of tools some of which you will never use again, but knowing they're out there does help.  Experience is mastering those one or three tools that you use every day.

I'll stop here before someone calls the metaphor police.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

RE: Experience vs Degree

KirbyWan touched on exactly the point I'd make regarding Degree vs. Experience.

The degree will expose you to some concepts that are not often found in actual design. The problem is that for 95% of structures those concepts or issues are not going to affect the design. However, we are paid to recognize when these obscure issues may be a problem.. often, designing a beam or a column is fairly straightforward, provided you understand a few of the fundamentals..

Much like a doctor who sees 100 patients and 95 of them have a cold...  he is mostly paid and trained to recognize and diagnose the 5 other cases. Maybe one of those is very serious and it takes medical school to figure out what it is and how to treat it..

RE: Experience vs Degree

You will have to wait about 20 years to get your PE in the states.  At that point I am almost sure the states will start requiring some form of Masters to take the PE.  Without your PE you can only move up so far in the work environment.

A degree in Interior Design sounds more like an architect focus which is very different from math oriented engineering degrees.

My specialization in school was for structural and back when I was applying for those types of jobs, the companies had me take simple fundamental written tests to see if I knew what I was doing.  Doing plug and chug calcs in the computer and doing calcs by hand on a piece of paper with pencil are 2 very different things.

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://civildevelopmentgroup.com
http://civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog

RE: Experience vs Degree

Typically my employers have classified the type of work you are discussing as a Structural Designer.

It is a step above drafter, but without further formal education -advancement will be limited as you can't oversee or direct the design without a PE License.

That does not mean you couldn't be a Project Manager.  Typically these folks do not actually design anything, they coordinate projects by distributing the work, organizing the drawings, making schedules, setting up meetings, interfacing with the client etc.  

From where you are now I would guess it would take about 10 years of experience.  

A 4 year degree (Businesss etc) would help.

this message has been approved for citizen to elect kepharda 2008

RE: Experience vs Degree

What engineers learn is school is more theoretical, and what engineers/designers learn from experience is more practical.  To be a really good engineer, you need both.  Someone with a degree can still get the practical experinece, but someone without a degree can not get the theoretical knowledge.  I have heard non-degreed designers claim they can size components based totally on their experience.  In a few cases, I have seen them proven wrong and a degreed engineer had to fix the problem.

RE: Experience vs Degree

In general, I suspect that any jobs that require engineering knowledge will ask for a BS (or more) in the appropriate discipline. Assuming a reputable school, the BS is basically the school vouching that you know a certain amount about certain things.

Without the degree, you are probably limiting your range of knowledge, as schooling often provides a much broader scope of topics than most actual jobs. This will limit where you are qualified to work from the beginning, as you may have experience in some areas but ZERO in others.

In addition, you are asking the company to take your word for your qualifications. There isn't a school "vouching" for you. Some companies will be more willing than others of course. Some companies like rules, and if the job description says you need a BS, they will throw out your resume without it. Other companies may look over your resume and say, "Well, he/she doesn't have the BS, but has worked on similar projects and might be worth talking to." However, the lack of degree is another limiting factor here.

And finally, I suspect that some companies willing to hire an engineer without a degree are just looking for whoever can get the job done and will expect the least pay. Not to say that somebody without a degree could never be a good engineer. However, I suspect the "best engineers" without degrees are the exception, not the rule. Similarly, I suspect that the best companies to work for hire degreed engineers for engineering positions. Again, there may be exceptions, but...

-- MechEng2005

RE: Experience vs Degree

There is philosophy, and there is reality.  

Reality is that without a degree, your resume typically heads to the round file before any others headed that way.

We can sit here and argue about it, but nothing will change, and nothing should.  It's a simple and effective gate.  More people are qualified for an engineering job with a degree than not.  More people are unqualified for an engineering job without a degree than not.  It's simple probability exercise; do you want to spend most of your time interviewing qualified candidates or unqualified candidates?

I've interviewed someone with a degree; he had to trot out a folder of certificates and commendations, but where is the equivalent of ABET for a certificate?  And if he were that good, why couldn't he figure out how much a 15% raise would be?

TTFN

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RE: Experience vs Degree

I've worked with great Engineers that didn't have a degree.

However...

They were all in their 50's 60's and had started their careers in the UK when a lot more people came up from the drafting board to become actual engineers.

They had also done formal Apprenticeships that included a fair chunk of book work, probably equivalent to a US associates degree or maybe more.

So while I wont say it's impossible for you to find other jobs or advance yourself, you face an up hill struggle and as mentioned above, getting licensed, which is important in structural engineering as I understand it, will be difficult if not impossible.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Experience vs Degree

I can't speak for other disciplines, but in structural engineering, there is only so far someone can go without an engineering background.  Even when I finished my BS, I felt I had only scratched the surface of understanding.


However, I have heard of electrical engineers who do commercial building work training workers without engineering backgrounds to be project managers, but I don't know specific details.  

RE: Experience vs Degree

I am one of the guys Kenat talks about, although I do not consider myself an engineer. I consider myself a designer/ mechanic.
 I served a 5 year apprenticeship in the UK, got  City & Guilds certificates and a National certificate in various engineering subjects. Even though in a lot of companies I could do the work assigned, I was still held back by the fact that I did not have a bachelors degree in engineering.
  I got around that, by starting my own business and hiring people with the smarts I did not have.
  If you have the opportunity go ahead and study for your degree. Go ahead and get it. Several years down the road it may be the difference between having a good job and being unemployed.

RE: Experience vs Degree

As someone mentioned, there are several states in the US that will allow you to take the exams without a degree, provided you have worked in an internship of typically 10 to 12 years.  That only allows you to take the two exams necessary for licensing.  You still must pass the examinations.  The Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) is the first exam and is a bear if you have not been through engineering school or you have waited to take the exam several years after graduation.  It's tough enough if you take it in your Senior year of engineering school.

Then comes the Principles and Practices exam.  It's the one that determines if you have the skills to practice engineering independently as a licensed professional engineer.  If you decide to go the Structural Engineering route, in many states you'll be required to take TWO exams beyond the FE.

All of that is not easy.  If you want to be an engineer, those are the hoops you'll have to jump through.  To shortcut the process, go to engineering school.  You can become licensed in a meer 8 or 9 years, not 12 to 16 years.

Very, very few people who have not gone through engineering school are successful in passing both exams.  It's possible, just not probable.

RE: Experience vs Degree

PhilBW said:

Quote:

Someone with a degree can still get the practical experinece, but someone without a degree can not get the theoretical knowledge.

I disagree that someone without the degree cannot get the theoretical knowledge.  I know that learning technical matter from a book is much more difficult then in a classroom environment.  But in-the-book learning is just as possible as on-the-job training.  One of the key skills learned in achieving a 4 year degree is how to crack a book and figure it out when needed.  But all those books are available and many are free at your local library.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

RE: Experience vs Degree

Kirby-

Maybe "can't" wasn't the right word, but "highly unlikely" is.  I'm just thinking out loud, but we spend a minimum of 4 years in college, then come into the job knowing virtually nothing about how things really get done.  Our technical knowledge takes a bit of a back seat as we try to learn how the office works, how to balance the theoretical things we learned in school with practical issues like constructability, cost, schedule, etc.  Someone who doesn't have the theoretical background before starting the job has to learn it all on the fly.  That's a tall order for even a gifted person.  Certainly the bulk of knowledge can be gained, but a deep understanding is necessary (IMO).  

I think this is especially true when integrating computer software into the job.  While you may be able to plug and chug and pull answers out of the computer for most designs, it is critical 1) that you verify what the computer is doing is correct and not just blindly accept the results, 2) that you have a complete understanding of exactly what the software does do, doesn't do, it's limitations, and it's assumptions, and 3) a thorough understanding of all of the required inputs, and defaults.  

This isn't the easiest thing when you're really learning how to design from the software that you should be checking.

RE: Experience vs Degree

The assumption that the OP resides and practises in the US is not a given.  In the UK it was always possible (may still be) to become chartered without a degree, but with relevant experience.  This may well be the case in many other countries.

- Steve

RE: Experience vs Degree

Brings to mind my grandfather Rees, who was classified as a lab technician but did the work of an acoustic engineer at a major manufacturer of gypsum products, and later at a major manufacturer of glass fiber products.  As he saw all the young degreed engineers he had trained making more $ than he did, he felt his lack of a degree really held him back.  This was a guy who had published research on theater acoustics and knew his math better than most engineers that I know, probably an example of who Kirby was referring to.  Regardless, right or wrong, a degree is a necessity for career advancement in many places.  (Registration or charter too.)

RE: Experience vs Degree

GET OUT WHILE YOU CAN!

Perhaps I'm being a bit too cynical, but if you are going to spend the time, effort and MONEY going back to school getting a degree - get it in a field that pays you real money and has some stability.

Engineering - particularly structural engineering - does neither.

Contrary to what those on this board think - your prospects without any degree at all are about the same as those of a P.E. if all you plan on doing is design. seriously, industry is off-shoring this stuff to peasants in calcutta. and licensing boards are powerless to stop it.

There is the "law"  - then there is enforcement of the "law". 2 totally different things.

Engineering is on a race to the bottom.

Go into health care (pharmacy, nursing - yes, I would be a male nurse for $100K/yr, P.A.) and take grandma for as much medicare money as you can before she croaks.

I say this as a P.E.

my $0.02

RE: Experience vs Degree

christ, where is the pride. ...

peace
Fe

RE: Experience vs Degree

Roy,
You need a vacation on a tropical island, without a phone ,or the Internet, for at least a year, or until you get to thinking " It wasn't too bad" after all.
B.E.

RE: Experience vs Degree

Roy-

Just out of curiosity, why do you think that the law regarding a PE registered in the state being in responsible charge is not enforced?  I know it is in PA.  

Not only do our drawings need to stamped/signed/sealed (as I'm sure is true in all jurisdictions), everything that we farm out as a performance spec is required to have calcs submitted by a PE registered in the state of the project.  

We've also done many projects where we had to write a letter of "substantial completion" to the local building official (which also needs to be signed/sealed in most cases).  We've had one of those letters rejected because it wasn't signed and sealed.  

I think that local jurisdictions, for the most part, enforce the local laws.

All of that being said, I do agree with you that there is not much money to be made in engineering.  You can make a good living and live comfortably, but you'll never get rich (speaking of most folks, anyway).

RE: Experience vs Degree

Agreed, I don't see things getting farmed out to India.  Verifying stamps is about the only thing local jurisdictions seem to do.

The real problem with jurisdictions is that they dont check calcs, general competency of design work, or special inspections .....allowing the bad PE's to develop bad practices into industry.  That can be a thread in itself.

RE: Experience vs Degree

Quote:

Engineering - particularly structural engineering - does neither.

Contrary to what those on this board think - your prospects without any degree at all are about the same as those of a P.E. if all you plan on doing is design. seriously, industry is off-shoring this stuff to peasants in calcutta. and licensing boards are powerless to stop it.


What planet do you live on?  I don't see this happening at all.  


 

RE: Experience vs Degree

(OP)
Thank u all for your replies.
It is quite insighful.

Id like to add that I dont live in the US / canada.
Im from europe.

 

RE: Experience vs Degree

Killer:

Well you'll just have to move here so that this thread can apply to you.  But seriously, I don't think additional schooling toward a degree would ever be a bad idea.  Good luck.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

RE: Experience vs Degree

Come on, admit it, you are from Calcutta ;)

RE: Experience vs Degree

One advantage that civil engineering has over some other fields is that site visits are needed, and local experience is often a great advantage (especially for geotechs).  An electronic component can be designed just as well in Delhi or Delaware, but if the project is in Delaware, the site visits are in Delaware.  The job might get "outsourced" as far as Baltimore or New York, but not out of the country (OK, very rarely).

 

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