Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
(OP)
At my office we design/engineer/model products. For products of greater difficulty we outsource to a mechanical engineering firm. They created all of our drawings for one of our products at a premium cost. I found a red-line dimension that needs to be changed. What I did was update the dimension in the DWG file and updated the revision number. The drawing and the product are our property, but it still has the ME firm's title block. If we were to get them to make this small change, the document would look the same as I my version. Am I wrong in making this change without the services of that firm or since it's our property can we manipulate it as we see fit?
TIA - Bram
TIA - Bram





RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
Are you adding a revision, or note documenting the change?
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
Turning the argument around , I would not be very happy if a drawing I produced and that had my company's title block was modified by another company and re-issued without me being aware of it.
What initials/name are on the originator's box? Yours or the original designer's?
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
What I have seen done is the addition of a new box with the company's name, the the intials of the person revising it. Being nuclear, there would also be a reviewer's and an approver's initials. There also would be a short description of the change.
I realize that for other industries, this might be a bit of an overkill.
Patricia Lougheed
******
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RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
For the revisions, standard revision control would apply, with checking/design reviews/engineering notices and documented reason for change/etc. No need to call the outside company, unless we wanted them to make the change (and perhaps to back-charge them if it was an error of theirs we were correcting).
I wouldn't have called it anal - the product will be in use longer than I'll be in engineering - someone is going to have to figure out the reasons behind some of this stuff after I retire.
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
Sounds like it is legally within the rights of you and your company to make this change, provided that you are not relying upon an official PE Stamp from the contracting firm (as others have mentioned). Somewhere (probably in the change-log box) you should note your name & your company name associated with this specific change.
Since Revision A is released (and hopefully, archived), you might even be able to put your name in the DrawnBy box for Rev B. On a side-by-side comparison of the two drawings, this would show the distinction between the originator's work and the revisions you have made.
Does your company have a policy/standard for what to do in this scenario? Documents like Change Orders (COs) can add clarity to a process like this, but only if this system/process is already in place.
Good luck
Peter
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
Another thing:
Lets say there was a PE stamp. Could I simply re-create the drawing with our own drawing template from the STEP file we were given?
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
as long as the changes are documented by the the rvising engineer & the initials are documented on the revision block.
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
since there is no PE Stamp then is it not the product responcibility the OP company ?
if so, there should not be any issues.
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
If the original drawing bears a signed seal, that drawing must remain as-is, and modifications can get you into big trouble.
In either case, it's vital to maintain a master change log to keep track of changes. I guarantee you that the original engineering firm will have records of what they produced and will not hesitate to produce the documentation of what they produced to protect themselves in the event that the drawings end up in court.
So in short, I'd say:
1) If the documents are the property of the client, change away
2) If changed, they must clearly indicate where the original firm's work ended and the revisions of the client began so anyone using the print knows which entity created what.
3) Revised drawings must carry the client's title block, not that of the original engineering firm.
4) Master change logs must be maintained by everyone
5) Never change a stamped drawing. Period. No exceptions. The professional engineer will protect the limits of his liability, and you will find yourself in a world of hurt if the revision is found out, not to mention what will happen if the unstamped revision of the stamped drawing causes financial or physical harm.
Just my thoughts.
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
If the drawing had been stamped then I'd be cautious about changing it without a PE's input but I'm not sure about the specific legal issues.
I've seen the added stamp of ownership & rev block type solution. The drawing in a drawing sounds horrible but someone brought it up a while ago and apparantly it is done.
I've also heard of cut and paste of the body of the drawing onto new company format, depending on the circumstances I'm not sure how much I like that one.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
with rev. number and the rev. box setup with the rev. no., change made, date, and initials of individuals involved with the change in the "by", "checked", "approved" blocks with dates. But all this should be covered by your Management of Change Procedures. If they exist.
As for the P.E. stamp, this simply indicates that the original drawing has been reviewed and approved by someone who is officially liscensed (fundamental legal requirement) in the state to practice engineering and that the design fits minimum engineering & design standards as approved by the State.
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
What I'm doing now for our own archival process is taking the STEP file and recreating a drawing with our own title block and logo etc. It's a long process but it seems easier than dealing with all this ethical/legal issues.
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
There is no doubt that your company owns the drawing and that your company may make changes as it sees fit.
However, if the contracting firm was providing an engineered design to company as a deliverable...in the event where some sort of failure occurs and it can be attributed to the dimension modified by your company ... then your company would own 100% of the liability and would have no recourse against the contracted engineering firm.
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
Copyright law dictates that the author of a work owns that work, regardless of who paid for the work to be done, unless the work is a "work for hire". Something is generally only (from a legal standpoint) a work for hire if it meets one of the following two conditions:
1. It was prepared by an employee in which case the employer holds the copyright, or
2. If it was prepared by an "independent contractor" and the contract between the parties specifically provided that this was a "work for hire" and the purchaser would hold the copyright.
I know this doesn't sound intuitive but that is what the copyright law states. A quick google search will bring up a myriad of articles on this and I've copied a link to one ... http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ09.pdf
I've had a number of situations over the years where clients have been under the belief that they held copyright on products I've produced (because they paid for the work) when in fact, they don't legally hold any copyright because I haven't assigned it to them in the contract.
If a drawing is P.Eng. stamped then any change would require confirmation by the original P.Eng. or the stamping would be invalidated. I believe that redrawing would also invalidate the P.Eng. stamp since that is not physically what the P.Eng. reviewed, checked and stamped and errors or omissions could have been introduced.
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
the tittle block being his logo is merely advertisement,
however going back to the original drawer makes sence in this way:
if any error on the final drawing, the original contractor kan be no longer held responsible.It would be fuzzy to state the original contractor is responsible for the drawing except for changes/corrections made as visible on last revision.
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
Matt Lorono
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources & SolidWorks Legion
&
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
The law is quite clear that in an absence of a specific agreement in writing that designates the work is a "work for hire" and that copyright will reside with the purchaser, the author holds copyright. Consequently, with no explicit statements in the contract, the author holds copyright. I know this is not intuitive but that is the way copyright law is spelled out.
Check the link I provided in my original reply (which comes from the United States Copyright Office) or if this is an issue in any of your work, it would be still to consult an intellectual property lawyer.
RE: Am I *allowed* to change drawing?
Advice is to just say it explicitly in a contract and no worries. :)
Matt Lorono
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources & SolidWorks Legion
&