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brick veneer support at sides of dormers
2

brick veneer support at sides of dormers

brick veneer support at sides of dormers

(OP)
I have been searching through the BIA Technical Notes for a recommended detail for supporting brick veneer on the sides of a dormer...is there a preferred way?  (see attached image)

Thanks

 

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

I would use a angle 3X3X3/16 with lag screws to the studs and periodic 3/16" vertical steel plate tabs welded to the angle, in line with the mortar joints between the bricks, to keep the bricks from sliding.

If the bricks have holes, short lengths of field welded vertical rebar would suffice in lieu of the tabs.

Proper flashing would be imperitive to prevent leaks here - an obvious placed to develop.

The rafters under the wall should be designed to L/600 minimum.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

Isn't there an IBC requirement in the US that precludes supporting masonry on wood?

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

I wouldn't even consider putting brick there.

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

Personally, if it is realy brick, I would continue it down to the floor and support the brick with horizontal beam.  If it is just a thin fascia, I would trust that it would adhere to the wall and wont slide down.  What Mike McCann suggested would work too but I think what I suggested is cheaper and easier to build.  Flashing is important, you dont want the brick to be in direct contact with the wood beam.   

Never, but never question engineer's judgment

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

I have encountered this detail before. Typically I have seen the brick veneer continue down to a stiff horizontal steel beam within the floor system below. Often the hidden portion of the brick, below roof level, is replaced with 4" block. Therefore, the masons are building up from a horizontal platform.

Detailing for the inevitable moisture penetration behind the brick veneer is critical.

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

(OP)
Thanks for the replies...

I was hoping I could put thin brick adhered to durock on the sides, but the brick I am using doesn't come in thin brick.  Also, the sidewalls aren't going down to the floor so I can't support from the floor.  It's not that much brick so I think my two solutions are either Mike McCann's suggestion of the angle with welded steel plates bolted to the stud or...convince the owner that he really doesn't need to see brick on the side of his dormers http://www.tipmaster.com/images/bigsmile.gif

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

You can support masonry on wood. It is done routinely on 3 and 4 story wood structures at the horizontal ledgers used for for fighting the expansion vertically with expansion joints. Brick expands over time and wood shrinks. The intent of the idea is that no bearing masonry masonry should be supported by wood. The structure must be adequate to carry the imposed loads, whether brick veneer, water beds live loads or other dead loads. - What about a structure on wood piles?

Either the angled steel member with tabs or going down to a satisfactory horizontal member to build off of are common solutions depending on the conditions, and details necessary.

The key is proper flashing to prevent water penetration.

Dick

Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

henryd,

When the brick veneer/concrete block extends down to a beam in the floor system, there is no need for the wood framed wall to continue down. The unsupported height of the block below roof level would max out at like 4 ft or so.

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

S&B,
If you look at the perspective posted by henryd, it is obvious that the dormers are roof projections only.  Nothing extends below the ceiling.

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

I have built a bunch of single family homes like this...built, not designed.
I never liked building the dormer on top of the rafters. 9 times out of 10, there is a knee wall inside anyway, so building them on top was really of no benefit as far as space goes.
I'm with Hokie on his original post, I wouldn't even consider brick here. The last few houses I built like that, I convinced the owner to use Dryvit, lick'em stick'em stones or a high-end siding. There is just too much movement up there.  

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

Prefer Stucco for this detail.

But, we have used 4x4x3/16 painted steel angle (w no tabs) for cases like this. Lag every stud, solid blocking 2x8 on edge beween studs, 16x16 bent edge Galv flashing over 36" peel and seal underlayment.  Enshure the truss at each dormer edge is designed for the DL or triple the trim rafter.

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

If the owners want bricks, then give them what they want. It is your job to make it happens.   

Never, but never question engineer's judgment

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

It is also the job of the engineer to advise against poor details.
...just sayin'.

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

But it is the engineer's job to do the details.  He just have to make sure he detailed it correctly.

I see this all the time.  Architect wants a brick chimney sticking out the roof, but if you go to the inside of the building, there is no fireplace.  The chimney is on a pretty steep slope.  Now, do you want to keep telling your architec clients that you cant do that?  How are you going to get their business again?

Never, but never question engineer's judgment

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

COE-
I agree, I was merely suggesting that he at least suggest what might be a more feasible solution. If it is bricks he wants, well, bricks he shall have....and cracks.  

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

(OP)
Those darn Architects ...always screwing things up!

Hey that's me!...I'm an Architect, but I have always considered a good engineer and builder to be my best friends.

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

Get out of here architect!!!!
 

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

Most of the suggestions here are very good, I would rank them in this order...
1. Chose another finish other than brick for the sides of the dormers. (Still keeping the face of the dormer in brick)
2. Go with the custom sloping steel brick angle with lagged to the dormer studs which are carried by the roof rafter at a very stiff L/600 or better.
3. Thin-Brick "Lick 'n Stick".  I realize that you said it is not available, but have you considered the possibility of having thin brick made for your application?  It may be possible to have the mason slice the faces off the full brick to create your own custom thin-brick...labor intensive, but might workout to be similar in intensity to the custom steel lintel design.

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

I do not think cutting your own brick will work. The brick will not hold up.  

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

Doesn't Marijuana come in bricks?  
I think they are a lot lighter.  ponder

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

Sealing the side walls and providing a workable drainage plane is harder then supporting the brick.

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

Flashing a roof to brick is common.
I have done it myself a hundred times.
There is nothing difficult about it.  

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

I think a L6x3.5x1/4 LLV would be best to support the brick.
The longer vertical leg allows more than one lag bolt at each stud which may be necessary to support the load.

I generally don't specify bolts larger than 3/8" diameter in the 2" face of a 2x4.
Also pilot holes should be specified to prevent splitting the wood.  

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

I like msquared's advice. Don't forget the vertical fins on the angle to keep the brick from sliding.  You'll need to determine the size/spacing of these fins based on the allowed stear stress in the horizontal mortar joint.

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

The slope appears to be close to 45 degrees.  When the mortar is wet, it has no shear strength.  You probably need fins at every half brick joint.

BA

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

Chances are a good mason will have some experience with this. Consult with one on your details.
My suggestion would be to use one single "fin" at the bottom and then use a spacer of some sort in the mortar joints the rest of the way up the hill until you have a level row of brick. Similar to tiling a tub surround. The spacers will wind up buried in the mortar joints.  

RE: brick veneer support at sides of dormers

Would they consider man made stone as an alternative? It will stick tithe wall just like the stick-on brick

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