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HELP on an stamping issue
2

HELP on an stamping issue

HELP on an stamping issue

(OP)
I need a clarification on putting my PE stamp on certain projects.
My license is in another state in which I live, however, is it not true that I may stamp a FEDERAL project, such as on a military base, no matter what state my PE is in ?
In other words, I have a Wisconsin PE, live and work in North Carolina, and am doing projects on Ft Bragg in NC. I should be able to "seal" the project with my Wisconsin stamp as it is a FEDERAL project correct ?

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

I have seen VA stamps in CO installations.  

Personally, for some types of work, I do not like it. I think there should be local knowledge (sounds like you have that).

We have provided soils testing (geotech) for FAA projects out of state.  This involved only the test results, and no opinions though.

As far as the legality: For the military installations, they are federal land.  They are not technically under the states (or local governments) control.  We have had to be sure we had an NRC (not state) license for nukes, and the contractors' erosion control was observed by the EPA, not the state.  I would say you should ask, and be sure, unless you have another engineer that could back you up.

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Call the North Carolina Board and get their opinion, that is the only opinion that matters.  The Boards tend to be staffed by really nice people who would rather explain the law (and their enforcement department's interpretation of the law) than initiate an enforcement action.

In my state, the Enforcement department is adamant that the Federal Government is obligated to comply with the laws of the state where their facility resides ("full faith and credence"), and any work done on a military reservation that would require a stamp on privately owned surface requires a New Mexico stamp on federal surface.  But that is just this state.  The next state over might have the opposite opinion when interpreting that state's laws.

Call the Board.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

"It is always a poor idea to ask your Bridge Club for medical advice or a collection of geek engineers for legal advice"

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

That's a good question - never had to deal with it.

However, I have stamped work for Tribal projects on their land alythough I was not required to do so.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Only authorities that are required to review design drawings and issue permits can ask for which stamps are permissible.

State or licensing boards have no jurisdiction over federal (or tribal) facilities. It is up to the Fed. govt to accept whatever stamp they deem fit. So they need to be consulted.

The stamp only says that one is licensed is a particular state, nothing more nothing less. Whether or not it is acceptable, is up to the authority having jurisdiction.
 

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

I too recommend a written opinion from the NC PE board.

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Rafiq,
The board in this state disagrees with you in the strongest possible terms.  Our Enforcement director says that if a project on a reservation or on a federal facility requires a stamp and if that project has a problem that ends up with a non-compliance determination on a P.E. without a New Mexico license then their reaction is the same as if the Engineer was not licensed anywhere (plus the possibility of initiating a case in the state where he is licensed).

A federal or tribal inspector can decide to accept an out-of-state stamp, but that does not bind the local state board who take their responsibility to protect the public safety within their borders very seriously.

There are five reservations within 20 miles of my house.  All of them have oil & gas operations.  I have permits to work on all of them.  Each one has a set of "laws" that apply to the reservation.  These regulations are as far ranging as the laws of a state or federal government.  Each has regulations concerning buildings.  Some just say that buildings must comply with state building codes (which include extensive review, inspection, and standards language), others have adapted the standard language from the model laws that are out there.  In every case (at least here) the tribal laws require someone licensed in their state to stamp anything that needs to be stamped.  Just because it is a reservation does not mean that safety standards are any more relaxed than elsewhere.

I'm not sure where you were going with your first statement, but anyone can ask the board any question they want to.  There are things that the board won't answer (usually regarding specific pending actions against an individual), but you can ask.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

"It is always a poor idea to ask your Bridge Club for medical advice or a collection of geek engineers for legal advice"

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

This is similar to PEs stamping SPCC plans.  The feds have told me they don't care what state the PE is in vs the location of the facility (no matter if it is a private facility or public), but the State of CA is quite clear that to stamp work for sites in CA, you must be licensed in CA.  It's the state Board that's going to come after me, not the feds.

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

IRstuff, if "Tribal lands are sovereign nations; neither federal nor state laws apply therein, ..."
Then why did it take the "Federal Indian Gaming Regulatory Act of 1988" to allow the tribes to have casinos on their lands?

Garth Dreger PE
AZ Phoenix area

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

In my experience - many industrial types just want to see that some PE from somewhere has bought off on the project.  They usually just don't care. I think some wouldn't even allow the local building inspector on-site on the grounds the inspector/building official has no idea what the corporation needs or does - except maybe that they make oil or gas or steel or whatever.

That said - we as a multi-state and even multi-national company have gone to the trouble to get licensed anywhere we do work.  Since I manage the engineering group - it just makes sense to me and not even bother to hassle with some bored clerk in a licensing board who could hang you out to dry.

Just remember - there is a lot of money in all those fees (say taxes) we pay.  As they say - "follow the money" - thats where the answer will lie.  

Lets talk PDH's or CEU's.  I have to take my hours at a certain time of the year - so they count in all states.

One or two states have a mid-year to mid-year recording period.  It get complicated.

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Tribal lands tend to have zip in the way of infrastructure LEADING to the reservation.  Therefore, while a tribe could build a casino its land, there would be no real road access, unless the state or feds get a cut of the revenues.  As you may recall, California's last two governors have into gotten political entanglements over how big a cut of the casino's take the state would get.

TTFN

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RE: HELP on an stamping issue

"but the State of CA is quite clear that to stamp work for sites in CA, you must be licensed in CA"
Projects on federal property or owned by the US goverment are not subject to state laws. Go back to high school civics or history. There is a famous case that occured early in the history that clarified that point. If the states could block and requlate federal installations then the federal goverment was powerless.
Federal installation require PEs because they get a known quality of an engineer.
I have stamped drawing for DOS facillities in the several foreign countries.  They were happy and I have never been registered in Ethiopia, Greece, Thailand etc. etc.
I don't have time to look up the case but i think it's a John Marshall decision. I think it was
McCulloch v. Maryland  

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

BJC,
You are confusing ducks and chickens here.  The state does not claim to regulate activities on federal land.  The state has no standing to sue the Federal Government for violating/ignoring state laws on Federal Land (otherwise way too many activities on a military post for example would be in clear violation of state labor laws).  On the other hand, the states do regulate our profession.  If they begin an action against an engineer for something he did on a Federal project, they can do whatever is in their power to do to any other engineer.

IRStuff,
Have you ever been to the Southern Ute Indian Reservation in Southern Colorado?  How about the Jicarilla Apache Reservation in New Mexico?  These two tribes have have been the main royalty owners in some pretty huge Gas Production and their income is measured in millions of dollars per day.  They have infrastructure.

David

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Really?  Have you ever known anyone or any entity that thought they were "rich enough"?  I haven't.  In fact it has been my experience that the more uncommitted cash someone has, the more they are actively pursuing additional wealth.

David

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Perhaps.  Nonetheless, the two examples are exceptions, and the road infrastructures were built with the cooperation of the resident states, since there's revenue to be gotten by the states from the transport and refining of the oil.  A casino, in of itself, generates little income for the state, while incurring wear and tear and construction costs on the roads leading to the Indian land as well as incurring law enforcement costs.  These are typically recouped through what some state law that codifies the financial arrangement.

TTFN

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RE: HELP on an stamping issue

So IRstuff what does the states do with the fuel tax they have placed on gas? I always thought they were to build and maintain roads to where we wanted to go. Places like Canada, Mexico, casinos, etc. I don't think that that Canada or Mexico are paying for the roads in the US to the borders.

Garth Dreger PE
AZ Phoenix area

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

I'm currently dealing with a common wall issue between a legitimate Indian tribe and a commercial owner...what a mess.

The tribe has sovereignty but the governing authority is sticking to their guns.. the tribe cannot exercise authority that harms the common owner!  Good for the authority.

We are working on an issue that involves demolition of an historic property that will leave my client with an unfinishied, unprotected common wall that we, and the authority, are saying that the tribe cannot leave unprotected after their demolition....they are pissed, but that's the way it should be.

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Well, in California, the fuel taxes have probably been pilfered to keep the general fund afloat.  And they do the absolute minimum to maintain some level of usage of the funds and it shows, particularly after a solid drenching rain.

TTFN

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RE: HELP on an stamping issue

By "gas" I mean "natural gas", not much transportation fuel tax there.

David  

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Two questions:

What is stated in the project specifications and will the NC board persue you for practicing without a license.

Read and ask the questions to the parties at hand and move forward.

Do the research to find the executive director of the NC board and ask to leave a message for him or her, if not contact directly.

Good luck.

Daniel Toon

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

I've worked on quite a few jobs on military reservations (as well as lived on them).  On base, state laws don't apply.  You don't follow the state building code, you follow the UFC (I normally double check the state code to make sure nothing is particularly different, just to follow local practice).  It's not state land.  Engineering work at Fort Bragg is under the same jurisdiction and laws as Fort Benning.  Fort Benning is effectively not "within the borders" of NC.

Let's say that your building at Fort Bragg falls down and the Army wants to sue you for it.  Is the Army going to go to the state court for the suit?  No, it's a federal suit under federal court.  I'm not sure, but I think even personal suits fall under the UCMJ, but you may have to go to civilian court to argue that they don't have jurisdiction.

It's common practice to stamp projects on active duty bases with any of the 50 state stamps.

One issue you may run into is if you're building on annexed property that hasn't been sold to the federal government yet.  I experienced a case where the land was only leased to the federal government and wasn't technically a part of the military reservation.  The result is we had to follow the state laws.

Does anyone have any examples of people being reprimanded for stamping with an out of state licence on a military reservation (not indian reservation)?

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

I went to a class last year put on by this state's board.  We had a couple of hours from the head of the Enforcement Division.  It was all examples.  One of them was a building on the Air Force base in Albuquerque intended as a day care.  It was completed and was given an Air Force certificate of occupancy (whatever they call it).  One of the Moms (wife of an Air Force Officer) was an engineer.  The first day she dropped her kid off she noticed that all the exit doors opened inwards which seems to make panic exits by pre-schoolers interesting.  There was quite a few other code violations that she noted.  She reported it to the Air Force, they did whatever it is that they do to the Architect and Engineer.  Then the Air Force turned the case over to the appropriate New Mexico boards.  The Engineer was licensed out of state and New Mexico fined him for doing Engineering without a license and turned the case over to his state who pulled his license.

I don't have any documentation of this, it wasn't included in the course handouts, the Enforcement guy just stood up there and talked about closed cases.  Notice that they didn't imply that the state has jurisdiction for action against the owner (the Air Force), they did feel that they had responsibility for ensuring that designers within the state protect the safety of people.

David  

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Good Example,

However, I think the state of New Mexico is wrong.  They don't understand that the Air Force base effectively is not within New Mexico's borders.  The engineer would have had to sue the state (and maybe his home state) to prove that he didn't need a New Mexico license.  That wouldn't be a fun process, but I don't see how NM would win.  

Not that the engineer isn't negligent.  He clearly didn't follow the UFC (which mostly just references the IBC) and maybe he deserved to have his license pulled for that alone.   

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

My experience with "I think the board is wrong" issues always turn out that they do in fact understand the issues better than I do.

David

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

I worked for the military for over 35 years as a facilities engineer.  Be careful as state laws DO generally apply to federal installations., especially where the feds have passed inspection and implementation onto their state regulators - environmental work such as stormwater, etc.  Additionally, state inspectors can access federal military installations as long as it's nothing classified and they give notice - usually a day or so.  OSHA also comes by from time to time.

We required PE's to follow the local and state building codes - I was the senior civilian facilities manager at an airbase.

We never hired a PE for a design job if they weren't licensed in our state . . kind of makes sense . . . they should be knowledgeable in local building loads, etc.

Read your contract and see what it says.

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Diarmud,

The licensure you're mentioning is a Contract Requirement, not a federal requirement.  The contracting officer can decide whatever requirements they like.  

Here is an insightful question on the Idaho board website

"If I (or we) only contract our engineering services to a federal government agency here in Idaho, are we exempt from the licensure requirement?

Although the Idaho Code doesn't exempt you, since your offering engineering services here in Idaho, the courts have decided that state licensing laws cannot regulate with whom the federal government contracts.
see Leslie Miller, Inc. v. Arkansas, 352 U.S. 187, 190, 77 S.Ct. 257 (1956); having said that, if you offer your services to anyone other than the federal government, you need to be licensed."

http://supreme.justia.com/us/352/187/case.html

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Gumpmaster,
You have just provided a sterling example of why so many of us keep saying "contact the board in your state".  An Idaho decision has no impact on Wyoming decisions and vice versa.

David

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Yes, but the court referenced is the US Supreme Court.  Does that not apply to every state?  

It seems looking through some relevant case history that the State supreme courts keep trying to assert state rights in this issue (with similar licensing cases), and federal appeals courts tend to overturn them (just looking at a small slice of relevant cases).

That doesn't mean that the state courts can't rule against you, but they'll likely loose in a federal appeal.  

I'm having our lawyers look into it.

I understand what you're saying zdas04, but I think what you don't understand is that the federal reservation is effectively not within the boundaries of the state.  It's very similar to a foreign embassy which allowed to operate its own laws within the embassy boundaries.  The home countries laws do not apply within the embassy grounds.  

I very much understand the state's arguments.  They want control of what goes on within their boundaries.  They want the revenue from licenses.  That doesn't mean that they are right.   

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Alternate question. Which is the greater hassle, becoming licensed in NC or defending yourself from a cease and desist order from the state for your offers to perform engineering services?

If I put on my BS hat (the one not lined with tin foil), I might could argue that while the federal land is not governed by the state, it does fall within the boundaries of the state in question and as such, the Board of professional engineers may claim some jurisdiction.

Most of the specs I have looked at in this regard have attended to this issue. Did a page get lost in the scanner?

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Gumpmaster,
I got no skin in this game.  You should do what you and your attorney think is the right level of risk for your firm.  So will I.  I envy you your certainty, I haven't been that certain of anything since I was 20 and that was a long time ago.

David

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

I agree with Gumpmaster.  The military installation is Federal and, as permitting authority, is allowed to determine what requirements are necessary to practice engineering.  Next time you go on to a military base, read the sign by the entrance that tells you rather specifically that you are no longer in the state and that federal rules apply.

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

I'm not sure I'm weighing in here in a timely manner - but I've sealed LOTS of plans without a seal in the state in which a FEDERAL project resided.

For example, I've done numerous US Postal Service projects around the US an in no case was I required to seal it as a local licensed engineer.  In fact, one state called me up, attempting to nail me with "marketing as an engineer" without a license.  I told them that the USPS project I was working on was a federal project, on federal land, built with federal money, and managed by the federal gov't.  Thus, the project wasn't technically or legally IN the state and they had no jurisdiction.   

They (Nevada) called me back a few weeks later and concurred.  This was also backed up by numerous attorneys for the USPS and other agencies.

On numerous military projects same thing.

Now in the case of the USPS, sometimes their projects were buildings owned by a local person and leased to the USPS.  In that case a local license would be needed.

This is very common but you do see some situations where local folks don't understand that a federal project on federal land isn't IN their state.
 

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Here's the response from the state of New Mexico:

"If the work is being done within the military perimeters and only for the military it would not require a NM licensed engineer.  It is the military's responsibility to check the engineer's credentials qualifying him to do the work they need."

 

 

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Licensing Manager

New Mexico State Board of Licensure for

Professional Engineers and Professional Surveyors

 

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Note that they still didn't say that it's the military's decision as to which credentials are required, just that it's their responsibilities to check those credentials.

Hg

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RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Federal land, as JAE noted, is sovereign...not subject to state law or jurisdiction.  On most federal projects, they just want to know if the engineer is properly licensed in SOME state, not necessarily the state in which the project is located.

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Just think of the ads for doctors to work with the VA on tv lately, they can work in any VA facility with a license in any state. The same works for engineers.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Congress has passed some "sovereignity" from Federal to States.  The best example I can think of is environmental - storm water issues, haz materials, fuel tanks, etc.

In addition, historic preservation is generally run through the state SHPO - their aproval is needed for any work on historic facilities and they are the ones who decide what is historic within the guidelines.

State agencies do have the right to inpsect most federal facilities in most cases.

I worked for the AF and state and county agencies soemtimes did no notice inspections (not often).  We ran it by the JAG (lawyers), who told us it was okay. They were not allowed into classified areas unless we had time to make proper preparations.

I'd be careful when stamping storm water plans, environmental, historic preservation, etc unless I was licensed in the state.  It might be smart to ask first.

Regards.

RE: HELP on an stamping issue

Doctor's licenses are a little bit easier to transfer, apparently.  Many of the want ads for doctors claim that they can easily get a license for a temporary position lasting only a month or so.  Partly, that's due to the licensing exam that's truly identical and run by the national board, no matter what state you're in.

TTFN

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