HELP on an stamping issue
HELP on an stamping issue
(OP)
I need a clarification on putting my PE stamp on certain projects.
My license is in another state in which I live, however, is it not true that I may stamp a FEDERAL project, such as on a military base, no matter what state my PE is in ?
In other words, I have a Wisconsin PE, live and work in North Carolina, and am doing projects on Ft Bragg in NC. I should be able to "seal" the project with my Wisconsin stamp as it is a FEDERAL project correct ?
My license is in another state in which I live, however, is it not true that I may stamp a FEDERAL project, such as on a military base, no matter what state my PE is in ?
In other words, I have a Wisconsin PE, live and work in North Carolina, and am doing projects on Ft Bragg in NC. I should be able to "seal" the project with my Wisconsin stamp as it is a FEDERAL project correct ?





RE: HELP on an stamping issue
Personally, for some types of work, I do not like it. I think there should be local knowledge (sounds like you have that).
We have provided soils testing (geotech) for FAA projects out of state. This involved only the test results, and no opinions though.
As far as the legality: For the military installations, they are federal land. They are not technically under the states (or local governments) control. We have had to be sure we had an NRC (not state) license for nukes, and the contractors' erosion control was observed by the EPA, not the state. I would say you should ask, and be sure, unless you have another engineer that could back you up.
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
In my state, the Enforcement department is adamant that the Federal Government is obligated to comply with the laws of the state where their facility resides ("full faith and credence"), and any work done on a military reservation that would require a stamp on privately owned surface requires a New Mexico stamp on federal surface. But that is just this state. The next state over might have the opposite opinion when interpreting that state's laws.
Call the Board.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
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"It is always a poor idea to ask your Bridge Club for medical advice or a collection of geek engineers for legal advice"
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
However, I have stamped work for Tribal projects on their land alythough I was not required to do so.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
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RE: HELP on an stamping issue
State or licensing boards have no jurisdiction over federal (or tribal) facilities. It is up to the Fed. govt to accept whatever stamp they deem fit. So they need to be consulted.
The stamp only says that one is licensed is a particular state, nothing more nothing less. Whether or not it is acceptable, is up to the authority having jurisdiction.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
The board in this state disagrees with you in the strongest possible terms. Our Enforcement director says that if a project on a reservation or on a federal facility requires a stamp and if that project has a problem that ends up with a non-compliance determination on a P.E. without a New Mexico license then their reaction is the same as if the Engineer was not licensed anywhere (plus the possibility of initiating a case in the state where he is licensed).
A federal or tribal inspector can decide to accept an out-of-state stamp, but that does not bind the local state board who take their responsibility to protect the public safety within their borders very seriously.
There are five reservations within 20 miles of my house. All of them have oil & gas operations. I have permits to work on all of them. Each one has a set of "laws" that apply to the reservation. These regulations are as far ranging as the laws of a state or federal government. Each has regulations concerning buildings. Some just say that buildings must comply with state building codes (which include extensive review, inspection, and standards language), others have adapted the standard language from the model laws that are out there. In every case (at least here) the tribal laws require someone licensed in their state to stamp anything that needs to be stamped. Just because it is a reservation does not mean that safety standards are any more relaxed than elsewhere.
I'm not sure where you were going with your first statement, but anyone can ask the board any question they want to. There are things that the board won't answer (usually regarding specific pending actions against an individual), but you can ask.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
"It is always a poor idea to ask your Bridge Club for medical advice or a collection of geek engineers for legal advice"
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
Then why did it take the "Federal Indian Gaming Regulatory Act of 1988" to allow the tribes to have casinos on their lands?
Garth Dreger PE
AZ Phoenix area
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
That said - we as a multi-state and even multi-national company have gone to the trouble to get licensed anywhere we do work. Since I manage the engineering group - it just makes sense to me and not even bother to hassle with some bored clerk in a licensing board who could hang you out to dry.
Just remember - there is a lot of money in all those fees (say taxes) we pay. As they say - "follow the money" - thats where the answer will lie.
Lets talk PDH's or CEU's. I have to take my hours at a certain time of the year - so they count in all states.
One or two states have a mid-year to mid-year recording period. It get complicated.
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
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RE: HELP on an stamping issue
Projects on federal property or owned by the US goverment are not subject to state laws. Go back to high school civics or history. There is a famous case that occured early in the history that clarified that point. If the states could block and requlate federal installations then the federal goverment was powerless.
Federal installation require PEs because they get a known quality of an engineer.
I have stamped drawing for DOS facillities in the several foreign countries. They were happy and I have never been registered in Ethiopia, Greece, Thailand etc. etc.
I don't have time to look up the case but i think it's a John Marshall decision. I think it was
McCulloch v. Maryland
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
You are confusing ducks and chickens here. The state does not claim to regulate activities on federal land. The state has no standing to sue the Federal Government for violating/ignoring state laws on Federal Land (otherwise way too many activities on a military post for example would be in clear violation of state labor laws). On the other hand, the states do regulate our profession. If they begin an action against an engineer for something he did on a Federal project, they can do whatever is in their power to do to any other engineer.
IRStuff,
Have you ever been to the Southern Ute Indian Reservation in Southern Colorado? How about the Jicarilla Apache Reservation in New Mexico? These two tribes have have been the main royalty owners in some pretty huge Gas Production and their income is measured in millions of dollars per day. They have infrastructure.
David
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
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RE: HELP on an stamping issue
David
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
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RE: HELP on an stamping issue
Garth Dreger PE
AZ Phoenix area
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
The tribe has sovereignty but the governing authority is sticking to their guns.. the tribe cannot exercise authority that harms the common owner! Good for the authority.
We are working on an issue that involves demolition of an historic property that will leave my client with an unfinishied, unprotected common wall that we, and the authority, are saying that the tribe cannot leave unprotected after their demolition....they are pissed, but that's the way it should be.
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
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RE: HELP on an stamping issue
David
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
What is stated in the project specifications and will the NC board persue you for practicing without a license.
Read and ask the questions to the parties at hand and move forward.
Do the research to find the executive director of the NC board and ask to leave a message for him or her, if not contact directly.
Good luck.
Daniel Toon
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
Let's say that your building at Fort Bragg falls down and the Army wants to sue you for it. Is the Army going to go to the state court for the suit? No, it's a federal suit under federal court. I'm not sure, but I think even personal suits fall under the UCMJ, but you may have to go to civilian court to argue that they don't have jurisdiction.
It's common practice to stamp projects on active duty bases with any of the 50 state stamps.
One issue you may run into is if you're building on annexed property that hasn't been sold to the federal government yet. I experienced a case where the land was only leased to the federal government and wasn't technically a part of the military reservation. The result is we had to follow the state laws.
Does anyone have any examples of people being reprimanded for stamping with an out of state licence on a military reservation (not indian reservation)?
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
I don't have any documentation of this, it wasn't included in the course handouts, the Enforcement guy just stood up there and talked about closed cases. Notice that they didn't imply that the state has jurisdiction for action against the owner (the Air Force), they did feel that they had responsibility for ensuring that designers within the state protect the safety of people.
David
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
However, I think the state of New Mexico is wrong. They don't understand that the Air Force base effectively is not within New Mexico's borders. The engineer would have had to sue the state (and maybe his home state) to prove that he didn't need a New Mexico license. That wouldn't be a fun process, but I don't see how NM would win.
Not that the engineer isn't negligent. He clearly didn't follow the UFC (which mostly just references the IBC) and maybe he deserved to have his license pulled for that alone.
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
David
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
We required PE's to follow the local and state building codes - I was the senior civilian facilities manager at an airbase.
We never hired a PE for a design job if they weren't licensed in our state . . kind of makes sense . . . they should be knowledgeable in local building loads, etc.
Read your contract and see what it says.
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
The licensure you're mentioning is a Contract Requirement, not a federal requirement. The contracting officer can decide whatever requirements they like.
Here is an insightful question on the Idaho board website
"If I (or we) only contract our engineering services to a federal government agency here in Idaho, are we exempt from the licensure requirement?
Although the Idaho Code doesn't exempt you, since your offering engineering services here in Idaho, the courts have decided that state licensing laws cannot regulate with whom the federal government contracts.
see Leslie Miller, Inc. v. Arkansas, 352 U.S. 187, 190, 77 S.Ct. 257 (1956); having said that, if you offer your services to anyone other than the federal government, you need to be licensed."
http://supreme.justia.com/us/352/187/case.html
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
You have just provided a sterling example of why so many of us keep saying "contact the board in your state". An Idaho decision has no impact on Wyoming decisions and vice versa.
David
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
It seems looking through some relevant case history that the State supreme courts keep trying to assert state rights in this issue (with similar licensing cases), and federal appeals courts tend to overturn them (just looking at a small slice of relevant cases).
That doesn't mean that the state courts can't rule against you, but they'll likely loose in a federal appeal.
I'm having our lawyers look into it.
I understand what you're saying zdas04, but I think what you don't understand is that the federal reservation is effectively not within the boundaries of the state. It's very similar to a foreign embassy which allowed to operate its own laws within the embassy boundaries. The home countries laws do not apply within the embassy grounds.
I very much understand the state's arguments. They want control of what goes on within their boundaries. They want the revenue from licenses. That doesn't mean that they are right.
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=134447
I agree with JAE's argument. I don't think he was convinced by opposing arguements either.
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
If I put on my BS hat (the one not lined with tin foil), I might could argue that while the federal land is not governed by the state, it does fall within the boundaries of the state in question and as such, the Board of professional engineers may claim some jurisdiction.
Most of the specs I have looked at in this regard have attended to this issue. Did a page get lost in the scanner?
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
I got no skin in this game. You should do what you and your attorney think is the right level of risk for your firm. So will I. I envy you your certainty, I haven't been that certain of anything since I was 20 and that was a long time ago.
David
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
For example, I've done numerous US Postal Service projects around the US an in no case was I required to seal it as a local licensed engineer. In fact, one state called me up, attempting to nail me with "marketing as an engineer" without a license. I told them that the USPS project I was working on was a federal project, on federal land, built with federal money, and managed by the federal gov't. Thus, the project wasn't technically or legally IN the state and they had no jurisdiction.
They (Nevada) called me back a few weeks later and concurred. This was also backed up by numerous attorneys for the USPS and other agencies.
On numerous military projects same thing.
Now in the case of the USPS, sometimes their projects were buildings owned by a local person and leased to the USPS. In that case a local license would be needed.
This is very common but you do see some situations where local folks don't understand that a federal project on federal land isn't IN their state.
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
"If the work is being done within the military perimeters and only for the military it would not require a NM licensed engineer. It is the military's responsibility to check the engineer's credentials qualifying him to do the work they need."
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Licensing Manager
New Mexico State Board of Licensure for
Professional Engineers and Professional Surveyors
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
Hg
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RE: HELP on an stamping issue
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
In addition, historic preservation is generally run through the state SHPO - their aproval is needed for any work on historic facilities and they are the ones who decide what is historic within the guidelines.
State agencies do have the right to inpsect most federal facilities in most cases.
I worked for the AF and state and county agencies soemtimes did no notice inspections (not often). We ran it by the JAG (lawyers), who told us it was okay. They were not allowed into classified areas unless we had time to make proper preparations.
I'd be careful when stamping storm water plans, environmental, historic preservation, etc unless I was licensed in the state. It might be smart to ask first.
Regards.
RE: HELP on an stamping issue
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