Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
(OP)
If supply and demand is a major determinant of salary levels, why are engineers so keen to encourage people to become engineers? I also notice that engineers are keen to encourage under represented groups to become engineers. Are we really so altruistic?
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca





RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
I've never, ever encouraged someone else to be an engineer. Not even my own engineering course-mates (accountants, lawyers now). Not even my own kid, who is smart, but prefers thea arts.
- Steve
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
I think that there is a lot of corporate and academic misinformation involved. The corporations want cheap engineers and the universities want to fill their classrooms. So keep the university classrooms full and fresh new faces showing up on the job and then burn those new faces out on their careers and bring in the next batch.
Another aspect that I think smells is that universities are cranking out product that does not produce the desired results. Companies want engineers who can produce practical solutions. Universities are mostly run by academes who have no concept of performing an engineering job in the workforce. The result is frustrated new workers who think that they are not doing the work they were "trained" for and company leaders seeing little value from hiring degreed engineers.
I think that engineers need to demand more say in the quantity and quality of engineers entering the workforce; and, for that matter, the quantity and quality of work we perform.
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
I'm not saying we shouldn't check for inappropriate discrimination etc. stopping any group but I'm saying it should be up to the individual to decide if they want to be an engineer.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
In other fields there just isen't enough people, so companies have to train people from a simular field. Example: electronics firms do pay well, but then try to burn out engineers (not to say how they treat the fab people). In the power system field, we have to train people, although we don't seem to pay as well, and have fewer burn outs, and layoff's.
So to me I do encurage people to become power engineers, because of the lack of good people and with my years of experence I have very little to worry that a younger will take my place.
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Co-ops really help shorten the internship, but many colleges hate them. My son was an ME student at a state University and I told him that he needed to start looking for a position early in his first semester. His $^#^@ "advisor" told him that the school did not allow co-ops or internships until the summer between a student's junior and senior years and didn't encourage them then. I called the guy and asked him about the view of the world through his belly button and he had the gall to tell me that my thoughts on co-ops were "old fashioned" and that today employers did not value them.
With that kind of advice I don't see how anyone gets through and becomes productive.
David
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
1) we really enjoy our work and want to share the joy, or
2) we really effing miserable and want to share the pain.
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Both of my sons have inherited whatever it is that makes me have to be an Engineer, and neither one went that route. The oldest is a bomb disposal guy and in addition to the problem solving he gets the added "benefit" of the real potential of getting blown up, he seems really happy. The other son quit college to get married and is working as a field tech, and has zero latitude to make things better. He is much less happy.
Those two are the only people I've ever tried to convince they should come into this profession (and you are really obligated to try to do what is best for your kids). Other than them, when someone tells me they want to "go into Engineering" I start quizzing them on why they would do that. I try to make sure that no one who drops out of Engineering school can blame me for "making" them go in the first place.
David
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Misery loves company!
We know what we do is important to society, but we feel misunderstood and undervalued. We feel that promoting the profession to others as a job option will make us somehow more important to society at large- when in fact, the exact opposite is probably true.
To some degree, the profession and engineering academia also buy the same non-sequitur that governments buy- that since engineers are important to the economy, more engineers will make the economy better. In reality, we train too many engineers and many end up working outside the profession not by choice but by default. That makes engineering an increasingly commodified pseudo-profession, and an engineering education is reduced from training for a true profession to "the new liberal arts education". Sad, really.
For the top 10%, this is still a great profession offering plenty of opportunity, decent compensation etc. My advice to anyone entering engineering is to figure out if they have the interest and aptitude to be in the top 10% early, and if not, consider bailing to something which offers a better reward to risk ratio. Apparently this is what 2/3 of Canadians with engineering educations do. Forewarned is forearmed.
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Hard to compare Canada to the US when they (Canada) has no exempt industry. They require everyone with an Engineering title to be a registered PE, correct me if I'm wrong Canadians (I swore I heard someone state that recently). So if you did the same in the US and classify everyone in an exempt industry as non-engineers then you would find that the only ones left are those in the top 10% with PE certs. It's not that those in exempt industry have any less education, it's just that they haven't taken a test and paid for insurance. Should we require PE to be classified as an Engineer? That has been debated to death already.
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
This really is not a P.E. vs. non-P.E. discussion. When I worked for a Major Oil Company, we had a job function (in addition to other duties) that they called "Technical Authorities". This group was the companies "top 10% of engineers" and only one of us had a P.E. The group was people who understood the business, understood the physical world, and were able to contribute to a geographically diverse set of projects. It was the company's way of leveraging experience (much like eng-tips.com).
The thing about the Technical Authorities was that every single one of us loved Engineering and were excited to see the next opportunity to contribute. That kind of commitment has nothing to do with the choice to get a P.E. or not.
I am in total agreement with MoltenMetal's last paragraph. Life is really good at the top of your profession (regardless of what that profession is), and if you don't have the fire in your gut to strive for it then maybe you should look for something you can be passionate about. Passion is a far more important component to success than skill with arithmetic.
David
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
When a young person ask me if its good in my field, i would say yes because it is what I feel. But when they ask me if its ok for them to take my course, i let them think first if its what they want at first. You can't do the job well if you are not happy on it. Yes, jobs are stressful even if you do like it but there's a big difference on doing your job because you love it and doing your job because you need to.
Poems are made by fools like me, but only God can make a tree. engineers creates wonderful buildings, but only God can creates wonderful minds
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
NomLaser: current "capture rate" of Canadian-educated engineers into the licensed profession (i.e. the % of grads who obtain a P.Eng. license at some point) is about 20-25%.
We have no "exempt industries" per se, aside perhaps from government, but the most populous provinces all have industial exemption clauses. These exemptions are written very narrowly but are not enforced as written. We also grant firms a Certificate of Authorization which permits one signatory engineer to have as many non-engineers and unlicensed engineers working under their responsibility as they feel they can handle. The result is that it is rare for an employee engineer in anything but structural engineering to actually require a license to do their job. Some employers use the license as a "minimum employee quality standard", whether truly required or not.
The result is little different than what you see in most states in the US: the only real determinant of whether or not you need a license is demand-side legislation. Certain other acts and regulations require an "engineer's stamp" on certain documents. Aside from wishing to act as a guarantor on someone's passport application, these acts and regs determine whether or not you actually need to be a P.Eng. to do your job.
End of thread-jacking...move on, continue the conversation about what madness prompts engineers to promote engineering as a profession to others- there's nothing to see here!
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
I was told about the profession at an early age. If I was interested in how someone designed that tab on top of a soda can, I should look into engineering.
Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://civildevelopmentgroup.com
http://civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Do I make a lot in comparison with say, an AIG trader who ran their company into the ground, no.
Do I make a lot more than a sales assistant in say, Rite Aid (Drugstore/Pharmacy), heck yes.
It's all relative. You can probably find some profession and/or location that you consider comparable that makes more and leaves you disgruntled. You can probably find others that leave you thinking you're doing OK.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
The options for me would have been some sort of mathematician (not really), some sort of physicist, some sort of academic, or some sort of mad inventor.
I'm guessing the median pay for an engineer is at least at parity with the median pay of any of those.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
if you want to get rich in your profession, don't go to engineering,
if you want a stressful,mind bugging job go to engineering
if you are looking for a profession that challenges you (without lying or something) go take engineering course
Poems are made by fools like me, but only God can make a tree. engineers creates wonderful buildings, but only God can creates wonderful minds
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
You will make us Canadians look like a winy bunch.
Not to be rude or anything, but every post I read of your in this forum says the same thing.
You know what they say about dogs barking up the wrong tree too long...
Fe
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Like most people I didn't care much, since my own situation was OK and I'd made some good decisions and had some good luck along the way. As I've said before, engineering suits me fine, thanks- though I'd be even more satisfied with double the pay!
Then I saw first hand our immigration policy wrecking the lives of thousands of foreign-trained engineers every year, simply because governments and people in our own profession had drunk from the flask I was talking about earlier. I heard them calling us a nation of hypocritical racists and bigots because they assumed we were deliberately excluding them from the profession merely because of where they came from. And I had young engineers offering to intern with my company for free to get some experience to have a hope of finding a job. I got the information-the real goods on the supply side- and got angry. So you'll escuse me if I want to get that off my chest at any opportunity that presents itself, in the hope that it saves at least a few people from unnecessary suffering. If that makes me sound like a whiner to you, you can stop reading my posts.
Though I actively discourage engineers from immigrating to Canada (and have plenty of data to support that point of view), I neither encourage nor discourage people from going to engineering school here. I just remind them that the pay's no longer anywhere near the same as it is for any of the REAL professions, the stress and responsibility can be just as intense, and 2/3 of people who get engineering educations here don't work on anything related to engineering. All of that is factually accurate. To a really passionate kid who is ideally suited to the profession, that won't dissuade them at all, and it shouldn't. It will give the less-than-passionate pause for thought, and it should.
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
IMO engineers' salaries are close to what they should be. We generally get paid an honest wage for an honest day's work. Lawyers, AIG type people and such are making way too much. The whole current economic system is just not sustainable. If we keep on this way, more collapsing is on the way.
Meanwhile, the world will still need infrastruct and engineers to design and maintain it.
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
I think that an honest wage for an honest day's work should be a lot better defined than what is deemed acceptable by many in engineering. Part of my reason for not recommending engineering as a career is that many engineers are not compensated fairly for their overtime efforts.
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Guilty, and still hoping for a cure
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Not abused at all. Unless you suck and work 90+ hours and can't get ahead. Well you picked the wrong field many many years ago.
Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://civildevelopmentgroup.com
http://civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
We were once on par with the other licensed professions, and now in Canada the only profession we can compare ourselves with in pay terms are the teachers- and we don't get the two months off in the summer! Again, in that comparison I feel we're under-paid and the teachers are getting something close to what they deserve for what can be a really tough job.
The economy is valuing our services correctly based on the supply of our skills and the market demand for them. If we were in truly short supply, our wages and benefits would rise to former levels, to attract more of the 2/3 who leave the profession (here in Canada) seeking greener pastures.
I also remind prospective students of engineering that the last Council of Ontario Universities survey I saw had engineering grads about 20% more likely to be unemployed 2 years after graduation than the AVERAGE university grad. Unfortunately they make no measurement of whether or not those employed are employed in their chosen profession- if they did, the story would be even clearer. The stats don't match many people's perceptions of our profession as a fountain of limitless opportunity, but the stats tell the average story far better than the anecdotes do.
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
I must admit that I did not pay attention to where the best jobs are when I started college. But I sort of ended in a nitch market, and yes I do recommend others to enter this nitch. It just dosen't seem glamerious, but there are jobs that pay somewhat well.
The down side is most universities don't offer cources that are specific enough.
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
You bet ya. With an attitude like some here one will hire you.
Of course we earn too little...but what are YOU going to DO about it.
Seems some like to shoot in the air....
Fe
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Every field requires certain innate abilities that most people don't have. All of us have around 1 to 3 things we can do really well. Outside of those areas, we can function, but not excel.
I encourage all students with great math and science aptitude to pursue engr because that is what is needed. Those w/o said skills would not be well advised to study engr. The desire is not enough. Aptitude is required.
Claude
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
logic is very important in this job. We do have a chance to excel in this field even if we don't remember the multiplication table because calculators are already engineer's best friend.
Poems are made by fools like me, but only God can make a tree. engineers creates wonderful buildings, but only God can creates wonderful minds
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Cvanoverbeke
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Fe
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Poems are made by fools like me, but only God can make a tree. engineers creates wonderful buildings, but only God can creates wonderful minds
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Might go part-time or consult, but couldn't possibly turn my back on this much fun....
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
What I see is the vast majority of people that my country educated as engineers (their education subsidized in large part by tax dollars), working outside the engineering profession. Most never enter the profession, leaving right after graduation. Some leave after a few years of work: some by promotion, some out of boredom, some because of economic necessity after a lay-off. Some join later in life. Their reasons are as diverse as they are. But the steady state in Canada as of the 2006 census was 2/3 outside versus 1/3 inside- including engineering managers etc. In this case, the average tells the story far better than the anecdotes ever could.
These facts will not deter those who are truly passionate about our profession- I'd argue these are the people we really want as colleagues.
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
This is actually the best advice that you can give to those who want to have a great pay in their job LOLZ
Poems are made by fools like me, but only God can make a tree. engineers creates wonderful buildings, but only God can creates wonderful minds
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
thread731-267124: Is anyone else bitter about work?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Regarding money I told them that if they are thinkng of it so that they can be rich they're miss-guided and there are plenty of easier ways to make money. At the same time I stated that engineering pays a comfortable salary which if they wanted to do the minimal reasearch they can easily get information on and see on average what an engineer at different points in their careers make. I also stated that with this comfortable salary comes a high professional responsibility to public safety, especially if you become a PE. This responsability to many may be deamed too high compared to the compensation that you receive.
A co-presenter (older eng.) at one point when I was describing how many of my first year friends disappeared over the first two years of school commented that I shouldn't scare them. The teacher (a former eng. grad) said that it was the truth and it's better they know it now. I then proceeded to tell them about how one of my friends who got 100% on the grade 12 math final failed one of our first math classes and that high school marks mean little after getting accepted. I also failed that math class but taking it the next time we both had A's... I blame it on flakey theoretical profs that can't tie down formulas to reality.
Finally when I was asked why I like my job I stated that I wanted to know how things work and how to make them better. My curiousity is rarely bounded to any specific subject and engineering felt like it would best feed that curiousity. Throughout school I took a broad base of topics and now with work I interact with many different groups of people.
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
There are many jobs that can make you money. I feel the pain of someone who wants work, but falls short for political or the like reasons. I see too many bums on welfare taking our hard earned dollars...
I like this quote:
"If two men agree on everything, you may be sure that one of them is doing the thinking." - Lyndon B.
I thought "we" as engineers were doing the thinking....at least we are supposed to be.
Fe
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
If your chosen profession is law, then when you graduate, you invariably end up with a job where you use the stuff you learn in school and actually end up practicing law.
If your chosen profession is to be a doctor, you invariably actually end up in a job where you treat patients.
If your chosen profession is a teacher, you invariably actually end up in a job teaching students.
If your chosen "profession" is engineering, you learn quickly to forget everything remotely theoretical or interesting that they taught you in university because in the real world, none of that's important as long as you are billable. In other words, in engineering, it's got nothing to do with science and everything to do with billing. Anything that resembles "engineering" is actually discouraged because it is perceived as needlessly expensive to pay somebody to draw stuff or solve equations - or else it is perceived that one who does so is re-inventing the wheel. So, the collective "we" perpetuate a "profession" where things are sized on the basis of "I dunno but that's what someone did before" rather than on the basis of a calculation; where things are built but not designed; where designs are stamped (under pressure to meet a schedule milestone) without the fundamentals behind them being even remotely understood. It's a pretty sad state of affairs, if you ask me. One can always make the argument that those (yes, like myself) who are determined to not fall into that idiotic mode will ultimately do well and enjoy what they do in the long term, but it will be at the expense of being perceived by their employers and by society at large to be more of a constant irritant than a respected professional.
Not that I am in any way bitter...
A tad cynical, perhaps...
The solution for me has been to just refuse to do things that don't fit my criteria for what constitutes proper engineering. Where I work now, it's quite clear that people need not trouble me unless they actually need - and want - something calculated or designed. They'll get tired of me and fire me eventually, but in the interim, as long as I have anything to do with it, the things I that design will work and people won't die.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
I too experienced this to some extent back as an intern.
"Hey boss my CFD calcs indicate that we are loosing 22psi on this bend....if we reroute it like this we only loose 4psi. "...."But sunny, WTF is CFD???, and stop calculating and start printing drawings.....its worked like that for years..."
LMFAO.
But, it still is a 'silent' profession, and in the R&D field things are much different...stick up for what you believe in.
Fe
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Check this out (http://www.cnbc.com/id/29408064?slide=1) I don't see bio/chem or poly sci majors on this list!! ME start is almost $59K compared to I would guess for bio/chem and poly sci would be in the $30k range.
Start salary of $60K plus four or five years from now for a BS in ME, I would encourage kids who just want to do 4 years of school to get into this field.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Fe
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
My father passed away in 1999. He had had the same lawyer for his affairs for thirty years.
When I phoned his lawyer's office, as executor of the estate, to see if they maintained the most recent original notarized copy of his Last Will And Testament, they called me back an hour later and said:
"Our secretary looked in the file cabinet. No, we don't."
Then they sent me a bill for $200.00.
Yes, apparently with lawyers, it *must be* ALL about the billing, because not even the most bitter engineer I know could find it within himself or herself to do that.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Fe
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
I am living in Germany and germany is a country of engineering. They have a really well known reputation all over the world. However, now they want to import engineers/engineering students because the students living in germany, they either do not choose engineering or they are quite bad when compared to the previous students(who are now engineers).
I am an engineer, but I would never suggest someone to be engineer. At the end of the day, what you get is a little bit of satisfaction due to your work and some money. Obviously that was not the things that I was looking for.
Best Regards,
Sartor
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Fe
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Fe
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Fe
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Chris
www.value-design-consulting.co.uk
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
What he means by "skills shortage" is that the guy he wants to hire isn't already on layoff notice, ready to be recalled at no cost. Forget about hiring and training people- that's for suckers! Can't blame him, though- 20 years of successive recessions taught him well. The governments and universities are only too happy to pour on more supply to "solve" it for him...
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
. Time to turn the tide. Do your job very well while you have it, but get into your own business (not engineering, but commodities based) on the side, to survive and thrive. I'm teaching my kids and others I know, to be entrepreneurs. I've never been more glad.
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
http://ww
those are the wrong reasons to become an entrepreneur and most likely lead to failure. Yes we have to work for a company, but for me I have direction of where I want to go, a nicely paid salary so that my family and I can enjoy, and most of my healthcare is paid. I look at myself as my own company and my manager and others are my customers. I created a brand of me with specific key skills that I know my customers need and will pay, all of this without putting my house and the kid's college fund on the line. One of the nuggets that I picked up at the many professional development classes is branding your self like the big boys. If you do have the entrepreneur spirit, why don't you practice it in your own company? Your commodities are your skills and your customers are your managers and internal stake holders. Google Brand Yourself or even Professional Development and there are a host of good stuff that you can implement into your career as an engineer.
I remember back in the late 90s and early 2000s many have left the company to start working for these so called start ups. By 2007, many have come back with the realization of "wow it's scary out there!".
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
ht
It looks like that you will get a bigger Return of Investment as an engineer from MIT than a CEO from Harvard.
Can some finance person explain this to me?
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Why do engineers encourage people to become engineers
For sure it is not the BEST for making big bucks, but it IS a sound profession and a decent foundation for possible future career moves.
An engineer is trained to think logical and critical, which in IMHO is one of the most valuable aspects of the trade in general and is quite easily "overlooked".
Wouldn't you think a Manager, after reading these comments, would think... "Man, those engineers have some issue's i tell you".
Maybe just maybe we inflict this situtaion on our selfs.