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Moving up into management

Moving up into management

Moving up into management

(OP)
I work in the electric utility industry on the generation side.  I have been in engineering for the past 3.5 years since I graduated college.  At some point I would like to move up into supervision/management.  What kind of qualities do managers in this kind of industry look for when seeking to promote an engineer into management?  From what I have seen it has little to do with being very good at the nuts and bolts end of engineering.  A lot of it seems to be about one's perception of that individual.  At this point I am not sure if I am on the radar for promotion to management or if I will be put on the subject matter expert track because of the nature of my work (steam turbine outages).

RE: Moving up into management

Typically managers  I have worked under have excellent communication skills, a broad range of technical of technical knowledge.  Very organized and posess the quality where they can make whatever they are sounding sound really good.

RE: Moving up into management

No advice, just some points and observations.

- Project management skills.  Planning, timing.

- Delegation - hands-off but still with full understanding.

Then...

- As you climb the ladder, recognition of your boss' foibles.  How to tick his/her boxes and provide info in the way they like it. (a.k.a. brown nosing)
 

- Steve

RE: Moving up into management

(OP)
These suggestions are along the same lines as what some of my coworkers have told me.  

I might be doomed.  I am a quiet guy who focuses on his work and gets the job done.  My performance reviews have been excellent but that doesn't mean I will be chosen for management, especially if I prove to be an excellent project manager who knows the technical details of the job but also understands the importance of providing accurate schedules and budgets.  The problem is there are too many bean counters and not enough people who know how to actually overhaul equipment.

RE: Moving up into management

A couple of other details that I didn't catch above:
 - It's more important to be nice and seem helpful than to be very good at what you do.  This is more critical when dealing with managers than with your peers, but see the next point
 - You can't get far without the support of your peers, and managers know this.  If you're roundly despised and can't get anyone to do anything for you without commandments from above, you're unlikely to be highly promotable.

RE: Moving up into management

If you are the quiet type, then you need to start being heard.  You can do this via emails, interoffice memos, etc.  Let the Uppers know that you not only see the big picture, but have thoughts and ideas about how to achieve those company goals.  Getting your initiative noticed can go a long way to get you into a management role.

To revisit Delegation, get to know the strengths and weaknesses of the people you work with, as one day they will work for you.  Then, when it comes time to assign tasks, you can give teh right task to the right person... win-win for everyone.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?

RE: Moving up into management

Sompting actually makes some good points.

Also, consider your managers.  Which do you think are good, and what would you like to emulate about them.  Many managers are stronger in some areas than others (like the rest of us) look to see which areas which are strong in and try to understand how/why/what...

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Moving up into management

A couple of thoughts on the thread (very good points so far)

First, being very good at your work is no guarantee to being promoted from engineering into management, and it could actually be detrimental to getting a promotion. The point being that if you are good, people typecast you and they do not want to move you because replacement is a hazzard. I was talking to a career consultant once and se mentioned that it is more effective to be OK but not very good, something called 'strategic innefficiency' or something like it. Carefull though, I am not advocating everybody starts to underperform at work!

Second, you are assuming that promotion into management roles will be performed by upper management based on careful consideration of your performance, habilities and prospects. In my experience there is a lot more 'randomness' on the process. You were available and somebody else was tied on a project, nobody wanted to relocate to that location, somebody left/got sick/went on holidays, you went for drinks with the boss and he thouth you were witty, you dress nicely, there is an opening on another department and the boss wants to get rid of you because your works sucks (see point one)...
 

RE: Moving up into management

Take up golf.

RE: Moving up into management

Not everyone is cut out to be a manager, nor can anyone be an engineer.  Each requires a different skill set, and has a different emphasis, and different problems to solve.

If you are enamored with solving technical problems, then management might not be suitable for you.  The hardest thing for many new, and some old, managers, is to LET GO of the technical.  As a manager, you have "people" that do the technical, help them do their jobs by staying out of their way as much as possible.   

TTFN

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RE: Moving up into management

Ever hear the phrase "promoted out of harm's way"?

RE: Moving up into management

Sounds like the Peter Principle Flying T organizatinal structure.

I've spent 11 years in engineering management, relocated and took a pay decrease to avoid it. I still get pestered.

If you like what you are doing, stay with it. The grass is always greener over the septic tank. Being aesthetically impaired and, as my wife tells me, socially challenged, is not a good combination for management. If you can take a kicking and keep on licking, it may be for you.

RE: Moving up into management

If you are going to be a really good manager, it is actually a promotion down.  Except for pay.  You will have twice the work to do.  You need to be willing to be the volunteer for the dirty work. Your chief daily task will be to remove as many obstacles from your peoples' path and to insulate them from the BS and intra-organization politics you will be now experiencing.  Delegation, as another poster mentioned, cannot be emphasized enough.  You need to recognize right from the onset that you are not superhuman and you possibly cannot do everything that you would like to be involved in.  You will be a lot more hands off.  You need to be involved in putting deposits into your workers emotional bank accounts.  You need to know them personally, what musical instrument their daughter or son is learning, where they caught the trophy fish, and what they're down to on their golf score.  Take them out to lunch on their birthdays. Do some industrial field trips to see new processes. That kind of thing.  I was promoted from quasi-blue collar (very hands on) to a product development manager some over 3 years ago, and I figured out very quickly that academic skills, though important, mean less now than the people skills do.  People need to be directed so that they have real purpose and meaning to their work, their ideas and contributions are important, and that they feel an integral and valuable component of the team.  No micro-managing!!!  You have to learn how to trust, also.  Well, my soapbox just crumbled beneath this weighty topic, so I shall digress to the fact that it is nearly happy hour, and exit abruptly.

RE: Moving up into management

(OP)
For now I will stay with what I am doing.  By being a project manager for outage projects, I kind of get a taste of both technical and management.  I have to attend outage meetings and oversee the schedule and budget issues.  But I also get to crawl around in the dirt and work with the mechanics in the plant.  I provide some technical support but mostly overall project direction and I leave the most important technical support to my field engineers.  I am still in the process of learning a lot of the technical details about turbines, but even if I did know everything I would not have the time to do be involved in every aspect of the project.

One of the frustrations that I see from engineers who were promoted to supervisors early in their careers is that there aren't enough reliable people to delegate to.  On top of having to deal with all of the management politics, some of them still have to get involved in things that an engineer should be taking care of.  And some have complained that the money is actually not as good because as engineers they were making more money with the overtime (paid at the straight time rate).

In regards to me being an engineer and project manager, my reputation speaks for itself.  Even if I am not on the company's list for promotion to management, I think definitely have a job running projects because I do it well.  If I ever did go into management, the deciding factors would be the need to get out of the field and into high level project management and to make more money.  If I could make a lot of money doing what I do now, that would be great, but I know it won't happen unless I move on to other employers or eventually become a consultant.  I am still a very young engineer but I am being put in charge of some of the most critical overhaul projects and I am getting paid a young engineer's salary.  I will get some raises due to standard promotions within the engineering cycle but beyond that the company has no incentive to want to pay me more money.


.


 

RE: Moving up into management

From what I have seen the biggest requirement for transitioning into management is who you know and knowing this right person at the right time.

Where I work now, most of the senior management has been recently replaced.  Every one of the replacements is a personal friend and / or former co-worker of the guy in the corner office.
 

RE: Moving up into management

Hello knight185,

to me it looks like you want to be in management just for making more money. What are your visions, what do you want to improve?

Once you have been promoted to middle management you will realize that the job is not as easy as it looks at first sight ("if it looks easy – in ain't"). Most of the time you are a bidirectional pulse damper.

Kind Regards,
hahor
 

RE: Moving up into management

(OP)
Money is somewhat a big part of it but care must be taken.  It would make no sense for my income to increase and for me to upgrade my lifestyle at the same time.  I am simply looking for a peace of mind that my current income can't provide.

The question is whether or not if I got paid the money I want, would I rather do what I do now or get into higher level management?  At my young age I think it would be pre-mature to start climbing the ladder but if an offer ever comes, it would not be a good career move to refuse it.  I have 3.5 years in.  I've seen other engineers start moving up the ladder at 5 years.   

RE: Moving up into management

If you can't make a decent life out of being an engineer, you're either:

a) being screwed over in pay

b) spending too much

V

RE: Moving up into management

Hahor,

Love your term - bidirectional pulse damper.  Perfect!  I believe I'm going to have that added that to my job description next time it comes 'round for review.

RE: Moving up into management

(OP)
I make over 60k/year but it doesn't seem like a lot.  I have a simple lifestyle but school loans, medical bills, commuting costs to work, car payments, car repairs, and everything else uses up most of my income.  Everything started going downhill financially after I got married and had a kid.  Right now the only thing left to do is 1. make more money or 2. take years to pay down debts while hoping that new debts don't pop up.  That is the problem.  
 

RE: Moving up into management

You're an engineer, right?

Normal path is that you gradually make more money as you gradually pay down your debts. Eventually, you reach a point where you have no more debt.

Getting back to the topic. In all honesty the best way I've seen to get into (corporate) management is to:

-suck up to your bosses
-as ivymike pointed out, be better at being nice and helping people than your job
-be prepared to step on people that you probably get along with

Either way, good luck.

V

RE: Moving up into management

Knight, looks like you already defined your solutions.  Hang in there.  Freedom from debt is neither a quick process, nor an easy one.  If you truly love your spouse, don't let bitterness take hold by identifying him/her (sorry to be so PC, but I don't believe you ever identified yourself as male or female)as the reason for tight finances.  Hopefully you are both on the same page for long term financial goals.

It has taken my wife and I 20 years, but we have experienced a 40-fold improvement in our finances.  Its not that we are extremely wealthy now, I just had enormous debt and zero assets when we were married.  We drove a lovely excrement brown 1977 Pontiac station wagon, that we picked up for $200, for the first several years, and lived in a small house that should have been renovated a century earlier.  At that time I was working blue collar making less than 15,000/year, no bull.

It takes time and patience.  If you have decent skills and a willingness to work, which it definitely sounds like you do, you'll do fine.   

RE: Moving up into management

(OP)
Marriage is definitely tough when dealing with the money issues.  Although my wife is not personally the cause of certain debts, we both acknowledge that the debts would not exist if we had not gotten married or had a child.  I am able to pay all of my main bills, but I can't make significant reductions in credit debt, I can't save for a rainy day fund, etc.  And at some point in the near future I am going to have to pay for my wife's mountain of school loans for which she has no degree to show for it, and I already pay $500/month for my own.  

Besides credit debt, transportation is a big one.  I drive so many miles per year...over 35,000 just to get to work.  My job has been moving me around quite a bit, so until I get a permanent assignment my commute is 120 miles per day.

 

RE: Moving up into management

Are you participating in any 401K savings plans?  These are before-tax, and some employers match contributions at some percentage.  All-in-all, a good deal, and a good way to lock out spending.  Additionally, it'll potentially provide your main means of support for retirement, since Social Security is pretty much at the poverty level.

Frugality is a discipline thing, and I'm certainly no exemplar of that, but there are teachers that can retire with a half-million in savings, so that's something that nearly every engineer should be able to achieve.

Even if there is no 401K, some sort of payroll savings deduction will remove money from the spending pool.

TTFN

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RE: Moving up into management

mauricestoker knows his stuff.

moving "up" into management is a rear-gaurd action... if you know what I mean.

RE: Moving up into management

moving "up" into management? i would say "down"....move on up if you're ready to quit engineering...

RE: Moving up into management

To all: A very interesting discussion and I think all aspects have been mentioned.
At the end of the day there is no golden rule apart from the fact that you must be what you are and not change your personality to make career. You can act like an actor for a week or a month but not forever. Keep that always in mind! If your bosses do not see you as a manager, you will be in the wrong company. Managers (your bosses) are humans, too. They have their own personality and their thinking is most probably different from yours. They expect certain things from a manager candidate and you might not meet that. That is no problem because it does not mean they are right and you are wrong. It is all about humans, beleive me. I never asked for a promotion in my life and got a few because I was lucky with the people (humans) in the higher positions. It is o.k. that you think of your life, your wife and the future. And it is o.k. that you think about money. But don't let only the money ever guide your personal decisions.  

RE: Moving up into management

Micalbirch - thanks for reinforcing something that been really getting me down lately.  I made a career change close to a year ago from a salaried position, to being the lead person for a small office startup, and I've gotten quite depressed over the last few months as the workload always seems to increase, with not enough bodies to delegate to, and my personality, I've learned, is just not the right one to be dealing with Clients and the whole deal-making, getting screwed on fees and scope creep, administration, being the technical leader, being my own HR Dept., trying to find new hires, dealing with Partners, trying to do proposals and meet all the deadlines, constant manipulation and criticism (from both Clients and Partners) etc.  

I can't act, and I wear my heart on my sleeve, and I know I'm getting the few staff I have down, since I'm getting more frustrated every day with the situation and regretting making this move.  The things that bothered me at the salaried position now seem trivial in hindsight, compared to the 60 hour weeks, working weekends, and the effect on my family life.  Oh yeah- and for no additional income, but the promise of a bonus IF the company makes a profit this year.

The challenge I have is to try to get someone into the office that I can pass the work onto, so I can get out of the business environment I've found myself in.  I have too much concern for the Projects and Clients and don't want to leave things in the middle of project delivery, and leave the mess for the other people to clean up.

I may be a very good technical engineer with a lot of practical experience, but when it comes to "management", I now know my limitations.

RE: Moving up into management

Sorry to hear that.  I was lucky in that I was given relatively simple responsibilities that demonstrated that I had basically zero interest in management.  At some point in time, you may have to simply "let go" and a start of that might be to let your superiors know that you're looking for something more technical, assuming that you have some level of rapport with them.  If nothing else, a cry for help might actually garner some results, like some actual help.   

TTFN

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RE: Moving up into management

(OP)
Money is a weird thing.  Since I have started working in 2006 my salary has increased by $12,000 but with the added burden of marriage, becoming a parent, and a variety of other things, I am not able to provide for my family the way I would like to.  Yes, I am fortunate to have a job that pays for my rent, school loans, a car for me, a car for my wife, food, etc.  However, it is not enough for create a happy home.  The limitations of the money that is leftover after bills are paid has created a lot of strain in the marriage.  1. I don't have any peace of mind and 2. My wife can't have all of the perks and material things that she thinks a wife is entitled to.

I like my job but it can also be stressful and require me to work 12 hours per day, 7 days per week like I am right now and not provide any additional financial benefit.  If I am going to spend most of my time at work and deal with the mental stress, I might as well find a job that will pay well enough.  However, one has to be careful not to increase the cost of one's lifestyle whenever their salary increases.   

RE: Moving up into management

(OP)
If I were to become a manager right now I think being able to delegate responsibility would be hard because I would not be comfortable relying on 9 out of 10 people that work at my job location.  It is pretty bad at other plants.  I am seeing that there are a lot of people that don't care about doing a good job and therefore are lazy and there are others who are decent people but don't put forth much effort to do much.  Also, the relationship between plant management, the maintenance foremen, and the union mechanics is terrible.  As a result many of the mechanics are lazy and the foremen won't do anything about it.  And even if the foremen was serious about doing a good job, the union guys can be lazy all they want because they will never get fired.  As an engineer and project manager I don't have direct supervision of the maintenance crew but the success of my project will in a large part be determined by the quality and speed of work that the mechanics do, and these mechanics have no incentive to work hard for anybody.

RE: Moving up into management

That is the crux of being a manager; You must remove obstacles from your subordinates' path to achieving their goals, but you must also motivate them, which is often a nontrivial matter.  Part of the motivation aspect is to know your people, i.e., what makes each particular person tick.  There may be simple, cheap, perks that mean a lot to some people.  Motivation and morale are often infectious, so getting a critical mass sufficiently motivated might be enough.   

TTFN

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RE: Moving up into management

knight185
My perspective come from having been managed and mismanged as an engineer. I've done some small project management, but I'm still learning and growing technically. So take it with a grain of salt.

To move up within a company or in a career you NEED to develop your soft skills, period. I don't think you need to put aside your technical knowledge though. See post:

The key to getting ahead is not technical..
thread731-190566: The key to getting ahead is not technical..

I also feel the anti-management culture of engineers is based in some reality. I read a post somewhere that spoke about how smaller projects being farmed out to service companies in the oil&gas industry has created a shortage of good engineers. Why? because young engineers out of college got to work on small stuff and learn the ropes, even if it wasn't profitable. You trained your staff.

Try an learn all the angles. Just as we are not fond of management, we are loathed by many hands-on field people. The field is a great place to learn foundations for technical and non-technical management. As they said in Full Metal Jacket "Get in the S^%T". This way you can make good evaluations on a true projects costs.

On the other side of the spectrum learn the business lingo, wheather you get an MBA or not. There's always Barnes and Noble, and a secret place which holdes arcane knowledge.........The LIBRARY. If you do get an MBA, go for a technical MBA or with an Idustrial Engineering Degree.

As for wealth and rising the ladder I think it takes a long term view 3.5 years is nothing. Get your PE, get active, move arround 2-5 years withing the company, and sell yourself. If loud mouths can do it with no substance, you can do it with substance.

Good Luck!

RE: Moving up into management

(OP)
I think I am on the right path.  In 2008 I managed a project with no technical background on the equipment and relied on field engineers to handle those details while I focused on the scheduling, budget, coordination of contractors, shipping parts to repair shops, submitting reqs for new parts, etc.  On my current project I am not the primary PM so I have been able to be out in the field more actually watching how the equipment is disassembled and put back together.   

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