Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
(OP)
Just a question I'd like to put out there -
For brick masonry or
for concrete block masonry:
What is your area's or industries standard operating proceedure for calling out the location, spacing, and details of masonry joints?
Does the structural engineer deal with them?
Does the architect?
Do each think the other is specifying them and they get missed?
Do both coordinate together and they get shown/specified somehow?
Does the engineer recommend a spacing and the architect show them?
etc.
Just wondering - I can't seem to find anything on the BIA, NCMA, other masonry websites as far as who is responsible (similar to AISC's code of standard practice where they indicate who does what).
Thanks
For brick masonry or
for concrete block masonry:
What is your area's or industries standard operating proceedure for calling out the location, spacing, and details of masonry joints?
Does the structural engineer deal with them?
Does the architect?
Do each think the other is specifying them and they get missed?
Do both coordinate together and they get shown/specified somehow?
Does the engineer recommend a spacing and the architect show them?
etc.
Just wondering - I can't seem to find anything on the BIA, NCMA, other masonry websites as far as who is responsible (similar to AISC's code of standard practice where they indicate who does what).
Thanks






RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
Architects hate joints of any kind...especially those that they must put in and over which they have no aesthetic control. Given that, we often have to "force" the issue and require their inclusion.
RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
I usually have the architect show the control joints on their elevations as well because this effects how stucco control joints might be located.
For brick veneer I usually just specify every 25 feet and be done with it. I haven't done any fancy brick veneer work so this is usually not a big deal. Again have the architect show this on the elevations as well.
Too many times I've seen people just spec these in the specifications and they either get completely missed or they get installed wrong. Often you'll end up with too many, too few, 8" columns adjacent to doors or windows because they didn't use the right style, etc...
John Southard, M.S., P.E.
http://www.pdhlibrary.com
RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
Dik
RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
If you have load bearing reinforced CMU and structure which is working hard (especially highly stresses shear walls) the EOR needs to think the jointing through (and show it on his drawings), or he won't get a structure which acts as he planned. If the SE doesn't show the joints then he ought to be prepared to have a joint just about anywhere. For some buildings "anywhere" is OK but for many it is not.
Quite a few people I run in to think control joints in the veneer and CMU backup need to "line up". They don't know that the joints serve two different purposes (one for swelling and one for shrinkage).
RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
Full disclosure: I'm sitting on a panel at a seminar for masonry and this is the topic I'm to speak on.
Some of you above have hinted at a coordination that is required between you and the architect.
This is particularly what I'm interested in.
My practice has been to communicate to the architect the required spacing and then they would show it on their elevations (like the comments above).
In one case the architect prompted me to review where he had put joints - vs. me initiating the conversation. The elevations seem to be the best place for brick veneer. For CMU though I would think the structural plans would be better....thoughts?
So what is the ideal process for ensuring that the joints get on the plans? Step by step what should happen?
RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
When working in Florida the architects usual response is either "what's a wall joint?" or "you mean stucco joint." And the stucco joints are usually only in the stucco not thru the masonry wall.
RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
For multi-story brick veneer, we would collaborate with the architectural people on location of shelf angles and soft joints.
We had standard details that I developed for our typical masonry joints.
I also have a "catch-all note" (as a backup) that describes all the above.
RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
Many Arch are pretty/very good in locating joints and a few need the application of a 2x4 to the left side of their hatrack.
It's a brittle material and subject to differential movement if using brick and CMU matl. The Arch can either locate the 'cracks' or live with where they will occur.
Dik
RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
I am in the process of moving, so everything right now is packed away in boxes. I will dig out the note next week.....
RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?
Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.
RE: Coordination of Masonry Joints - SE's or Archs?