"Project Engineer" Title
"Project Engineer" Title
(OP)
Hi,
I am a licensed professional engineer (structural) that works for a Design Build firm. Our company managers have a habit of calling new project managers "Project Engineers". I have a problem with this, because the people they are titling as "Project Engineers" are new out of school with, at most, a 4 yr construction management degree (not engineering based). They then move up to being a "Project Manager" after gaining some experience.
My first job before I was licensed was at an A/E firm and we were not allowed to be called Engineers until we recieved our license. Is anyone aware of legal issues with calling a project manager and Engineer without an engineering background?
We do a lot of work with the government, and I could see a big issue with a new PM giving advice on a project, and others taking their advice because they assume they have engineering credentials (such as recommendations on shoring, removing forms, and other means and methods issues that would usually be asked to an engineer).
I was told that "Project Engineer" is an industry accepted term for a green or new "Project Manager" What are your thoughts?
I am a licensed professional engineer (structural) that works for a Design Build firm. Our company managers have a habit of calling new project managers "Project Engineers". I have a problem with this, because the people they are titling as "Project Engineers" are new out of school with, at most, a 4 yr construction management degree (not engineering based). They then move up to being a "Project Manager" after gaining some experience.
My first job before I was licensed was at an A/E firm and we were not allowed to be called Engineers until we recieved our license. Is anyone aware of legal issues with calling a project manager and Engineer without an engineering background?
We do a lot of work with the government, and I could see a big issue with a new PM giving advice on a project, and others taking their advice because they assume they have engineering credentials (such as recommendations on shoring, removing forms, and other means and methods issues that would usually be asked to an engineer).
I was told that "Project Engineer" is an industry accepted term for a green or new "Project Manager" What are your thoughts?





RE: "Project Engineer" Title
In my current line of work any Engineer that works on a Project is a Project Engineer.
The title varies from industry to industry and probably from country to country.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
- Steve
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
A "Project Manager" does not need to be a licensed engineer, nor is a degree in engineering required. A "Project Engineer" needs to at least have an engineering degree and must be registered either as an engineer in training or a professional engineer.
The instant you use "Engineer" in the job title, it's against the law to be anything other than an engineer.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
What state do you work in and do you know if there is a specific state that it is illegal to use "engineer" in your title? In Wisconsin, it is illegal to use the term "professional engineer" without licensure. Thanks,
-K
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
- Steve
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Unless you are in an exempt industry.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
In my opinion, the term "professional engineer" has a specific meaning as one who has a PE license. I don't agree that one should have to have a PE to be called or titled as an engineer. The reason being that the work that requires a PE or that is typically done by a "professional engineer" is only a small subset of the Engineering work of the world. In the areas that don't, most companies go through a process of certification and testing to a defined set of standards by an NRTL which is usually intended to be equivalent to the services of the PE. Should someone at least be required to hold an engineering degree from an accredited institution? Perhaps, but does this requirement fit in all cases?
I have frequently had a conversation with a fellow engineer who is married to a lawyer (in the USA). We agree that as a professional discipline, engineering went wrong in that it does not require some form of formal process of obtaining a license and continuing certification and ongoing learning. If it had, as a profession, engineers would be in the same position as doctors and lawyers and would also be able to command the salaries that those professions get. We also agree that there is a general skill set that all engineers should possess, but beyond that there is so much variety that having one certification and one test for all is not practical and instead it should be at least geared towards the discipline (electrical, mechanical, chemical, etc).
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Before I go let me provide my standard advice--Don't ask your bridge club for medical advice or a bunch of geek engineers for legal advice. If you have a legal question, read the law in your jurisdiction and if you can't make sense of it hire a lawyer to explain it to you.
David
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
I know Wisconsin's law, but we have went from a local, general contractor and have grown much larger, now recognized as a federal contractor doing work all over the country in many different states.
I thought that maybe someone has run into this before, and at least could tell me what state they are in, or ran into the problem with so at least I could track down and read the laws in a handful of states, instead of 50.
The managers of the company are disagreeing with me on this, which is fine as long as they are not setting the company up for a legal issue. I certainly am not going to pay the lawyer and as long as they disagree, they certainly won't until its a problem for them.
Thanks to anyone who can point me in the right direction.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
I wonder how the real big engineering communities will self-regulate.
- Steve
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Fe
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
By "up here", I meant "in Canada".
We don't have (based on my understanding) industry exemptions like the U.S.. It's pretty black and white: you cannot use "Engineer" in your job title unless you actually have a degree in engineering and are registered in good standing as an "engineer" in the applicable jurisdiction.
I erroneously thought that the same would apply in the U.S. - that there would be an equivalent exclusive right to title protected by similar laws.
What Noway2 alludes to in his closing paragraph may be true in the U.S., but in Canada, there actually *is* "...a formal process of obtaining a license and continuing certification and ongoing learning...". I believe that is largely why the right to title can be protected by law.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
With regard to Federal projects in the U.S., stand by for a major change. Federal regulations (especially EPA) are starting to require P.E. signature and stamp on many different reports, forms, etc. The EPA is silent on whether you need a stamp from a local state or if will any stamp do. We are starting to see big firms stamp things like the EPA Spill Prevention and Countermeasures Control (SPCC) form with out-of-state stamps. In New Mexico, the Board has stated the opinion informally that this is not legal, but there has not been an enforcement proceeding yet. When the first enforcement action is requested, it will certainly be followed by a "cease and desist" letter to the companies involved. I expect this to evolve into a major "States Rights" issue that will force a change in the federal regulations. The board in my state has been very clear that if you stamp something which has any chance of impacting public health and safety within the state then the stamp has to say "New Mexico" on it.
David
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
My last attempt at "arguing" or rather explaining the LAW ended up with all deleted posts...
Fe
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
knelli...The company I worked for some years back received a cease and desist letter from our state board for allowing EI's to use the term "Project Engineer" since they were not yet licensed.
While the states vary a bit on their protected titles, in general you can't use the term "engineer" in your title or offering unless you are in an exempt category, and even then you generally have to have a 4-year degree in engineering.
Construction/Design Build are by no means exempt categories. My guess is your company is violating your state law. Do they hold a certificate of authorization to practice engineering in Wisconsin?
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
- Steve
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
It must depend on which industry, or maybe it's a local/company thing. In my company in the chemical industry, the "Project Engineer" coordinates/manages the detailed engineering design team to produce construction packages. The "Project Manager" manages the overall project including process design, detailed engineering, procurement of equipment, construction, commissioning, and start-up. They are two separate functions.
Good luck,
Latexman
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Ironically, our company is big on getting "the company" certified in every state to practice engineering and be a licensed contractor in every state in which we work, even on federal projects. We won't provide structural engineering on projects where our engineers are not licensed per the state's requirements even on federal projects where the contract specifically states that we are not required to be licensed in that state (I hope this doesn't start a new battle - I don't agree that the designers should be exempt on federal land).
Thanks again
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
They like the Professional Engineer stamp on documents, however, the federal government cannot recognize state laws (federal preemption). Their legal requirement is that a stamp from any professional engineer, regardless of the state that issued the license, is ok for federal work.
However, the EPA and others will be quick to point out that practicing engineering (whether for the federal government or not) needs a license from the state in which the project is taking place, and the state board will handle that issue.
But the federal government won't meddle with state laws, so I don't think they will deny the stamp from an out of state engineer.
Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
In Texas, it is perfectly OK for me to call myself a "Project Engineer" IF my firm is registered in the state AND I work under the supervision of a Licensed Professional Engineer (obviously, I am not licensed yet).
Apparently in other states they will send you a cease and desist letter, according to the above posts.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
I've been an engineer with the federal government for a number of years. Your take on PE requirements is different than what I have understood, even when working in a federal contracting office.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
I'm not surprised it's different....I think it is a new thing that some government agencies are instituting. I know for sure that it is the policy of the EPA to accept a PE stamp from any state, but the IRS wants a stamp from an engineer licensed in the state where the building is. Perhaps the expectations are different in different branches of the government.
(It's wrong for an engineer not licensed in a state to stamp off a drawing for something in that state. I want to be clear that I don't disagree with that.)
Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
A problem I've seen a lot of times is non-engineers editing guide spec's for engineering. If you don't know what you are doing, editing the qualifications portion of a guide spec is pointless.
A problem area I have repeatedly encountered is agency use of Service Contract Act as opposed to Brooks Act. Under the SCA you might get better wage rates and lower initial cost; if for saving energy, such as re-commissioning, an SCA might suggest cutting back or out outside air (I've seen this happen in unfortunate places). The gubmint may pay more upfront for Brooks Act, but I have greater trust that a PE would not be doing nutty things. VFD application to everything that moves is more likely to happen (in my experience) when the PE is not involved. I have greater control/authority on energy funds, so a PE stamp by the State is required. I still have to convince the Contracting Officer (I've only worked with one Contracting Officer that was an engineer; one large federal agency I worked for had a policy disallowing engineers from working in Contracting-weird).
EPA has an in-state PE requirement for EnergyStar submittal.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Your last sentance is interesting. Why in the world would they have an in-state requirement for one program and be silent on another program? No, wait, it is the government.
David
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Engineering in US aviation is an exempted industry as far as using the word "engineer" in a title. The FAA ACO (Aircraft Certification Office) engineer and/or the FAA/DER (Designated Engineering Representative) stands in the place of a licensed professional engineer and all of us who perform engineering tasks must have what we design blessed by these individuals.
For example, I am not a licensed professional engineer. However my job title is Project Engineer. And contrary to your industry, in our usage it means I am expected to be an experienced engineer who leads of team of engineers (six in my personal situation) regarding technical and engineering decisions. I do not have any managerial, supervisory or administrative authority. I exist to insure that everything my team creates will meet the standards of the FAA ACO engineer and/or the FAA DER BEFORE they look at it, under the theory that the sooner we find issues and resolve them the more likely our final product will be blessed in the desired time frame.
So at least in my industry the term Project Engineer does not mean what it means in your industry. I thought you might want to know of this exception, but it really does not affect you because your industry is a completely different ball game from the legal and oversight perspective.
I hope you found this interesting even if not useful. :)
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
At a former employer in the Power EPC industry, Project Engineer was used as a title for the top-ranking technical engineer on a project. We are not exempt, so this person was always a PE and the one to stamp the drawings for his discipline.
For example, on a typical power plant project, the mechanical staffing would look something like this:
Project Manager (mostly dealing with managerial issues relating to the owner and construction partner, and overseeing the whole project)
Engineering Manager (managerial issues related to engineering and procurement)
Project Mechanical Engineer* (licensed PE, reviews all mechanical work)
Mechanical Engineers** (x 5-10 engineeers, levels I-IV, may also be licensed.)
*my current company calls this Lead Mechanical Engineer
**we can use the term "engineer" for any degreed engineer in my state, only "professional engineer" or "licensed engineer" is restricted.
HOWEVER, similar to the situation you are seeing, on the construction-partner side of the business, "ENGINEER" is used for the construction management professionals, regardless of whether their BS degree is in CM or engineering.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
I would strongly recommend against listing any intern or apprentice as an engineer on a federal contract, that will run afoul of FAR Part 31 and the Cost Accounting Standards.
If the gubmint does not spell out requirements, such as having PE, Structural for excavation shoring, and when it is required, then that agency needs to start editing its specifications. Worrisome part is it might not be an engineer (depending on which agency is involved) editing the qualifications. OSHA can and has fined the gubmint.
I have not yet met a gubmint engineer that did not have at least an ABET accredited degree. I've met a lot of project and program managers that have a degree in history.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
drawn to design, designed to draw
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
It's listed under the Download, Sign, and Mail Letter of Agreement and SEP to EPA.
An exception is given for federal facilities and employees; if a federal employee, out-of-state is acceptable as long as it is allowed by the State of licensing.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
I worked hard for my P.E. but it is now irrelevant, a meaningless credential. I see absolutely clueless clowns calling themselves "engineers" designing foundations, superstructures, connections who would not know how to analyze a free-body-diagram.
Across the board, mechanical, civil, structural, chemical - you name it. Design is being off-shored, accountability is nil.
America is now officialy a third-world country. I doubt I will even bother renewing my license. throwing good money after bad.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Your post raises some valid points. Namely that cost is having a tendency to drive towards the lowest bidder / lowest common denominator. In my experience, Off shoring definitely makes design accountability a lot harder. It places some serious responsibility on the few remaining on shored engineers that must qualify the work.
Personally, I would really like to see the bar raised for ALL engineering disciplines. I think that some form of standardized qualification is required. I think that the lack thereof will ultimately demand a serious price tag. Unfortunately, the current PE system falls far, short of this goal. The answer, of course, is to expand the system, but as I said in my previous post, there needs to be some sort of discipline differentiation.
Take for example, software. Most "embedded" software is NOT developed by computer science people. Most of it is developed by electrical engineers. One driving reason for this is that the EE has a much easier time understanding the hardware that they are trying to control. How many critical systems today depend on software? Cars, planes, nuclear power plants, fire and other life safety equipment, etc, basically most of the nations infrastructure are all only as safe and reliable as the software running them. Does developing software currently require any sort of certification? Hell, no. Should it. Hell yes.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
If cars, airplanes, and nuclear power plants are designed by unlicensed engineers, why should the software that runs them be any different?
Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
And, frv, not everyone in TX agrees with your interpretation of TX law. I was an Engineering Assistant, not an Engineer, until I got my license, for legal reasons, even though I was working for a hierarchy of PEs.
Hg
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RE: "Project Engineer" Title
I was actually of the opinion that I could not use the term "engineer".. They actually beat that into you in school..
The reason I posted what I did was that a colleague pointed out the provision in the Texas Board rules and I read it myself.. it was pretty unambiguous.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
http://
The above link takes you to the Texas Engineering Practice Act.
On p. 22, under "Graduate Engineers" (Section 1001.406), part (b), it states that I may use the term "Engineer". In my previous post I stated that I could use the term "Project Engineer". If I had to guess, I'd say that if you are allowed to use the term "Engineer", it would be perfectly OK to use the term "Project Engineer", but I'd be curious if others would interpret this differently.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
I can't speak for automotive, but airplanes, power plants, and military hardaware, and the software that controls this stuff are highly regulated. I am going out on a limb here, but my opinion is that the whole idea of having a licensed engineer is to ensure the safety of the general public. So in this vein, I see no need for licensure in the presence of a regualting body. It is indirectly through this regulating body that the general public is protected, not directly through the licensure of an individual engineer. Products (software or hardware) for these industries goes through extensive reviews and approvals and ultimately must pass rigorous qualification tests before this stuff is deployed in the field.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Note, specifically, the definitions at the start of the document:
"(2) "Engineer" means a person licensed to engage in the practice of engineering in this state."
And,
"A person who is an employee or subordinate of an engineer is exempt from the licensing requirements of this chapter if the person's practice does not include responsible charge of design or supervision."
TTFN
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RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Short of calling the board myself and asking them, I'd venture to say what they really care about is not using the term "Professional" or "Licensed" in any way unless you are actually licensed.
I know the general public won't know the difference but pretty much anybody engaged in engineering would know that if your title is "Project Engineer", you're probably not licensed.. at least in the structural world, that's the case..
In any case, that's why I brought this up, to see whether other people would think that "Project Engineer" is, in the spirit of the law, what the board intended or whether they think it is a violation of the spirit of the law...
My opinion is that we're getting caught up in semantics and kind of missing the big picture.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
I think the definition they included speaks for itself. They allow the exception for "graduate engineer" and an "engineer" working directly under the supervision of a PE. I don't see that they allow any other exceptions, except for exempted industries and companies.
TTFN
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RE: "Project Engineer" Title
I called the compliance division of the state board and asked them directly. They said I can use the term engineer AND any variation thereof, provided I do not represent myself as, or call myself a Professional or Licensed engineer.
Forest for the trees, gentlemen.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
The term "Graduate Engineer" is definitive. It means that you have graduated with a degree in engineering, but distinguishable from "Licensed Professional Engineer".
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
did you just skip over part (b) of 1001.406?
did you just ignore my previous post?
I CALLED the board. The compliance division, no less. I specifically asked them if I was misinterpreting the Law and was told I was not. And yes- I specifically asked about the term "Project Engineer".
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
It may very well be that they'll only enforce blatant violations, i.e., posing as PEs, as opposed to calling yourself "Structural Engineer," which technically violates the code.
If you ask them to put it in writing, you'll probably either get a different answer or no answer or a regurgitation of the PE act.
TTFN
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RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Cheers
Greg Locock
I rarely exceed 1.79 x 10^12 furlongs per fortnight
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Are you serious??
Is it so important for you to "win" this idiotic pissing contest that you actually have to question the qualifications of the COMPLIANCE DIVISION of the state board?
This is ALL they do!!! They receive complaints and investigate whether the complaints are violations of the code.. who would be better suited to inform me whether a provision is in violation of the code?
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
I simply point out that the written law is at odds with the information you received, and at odds with the PE law in my own state. You can accept this person's advice and take your chances or not; it makes no difference to me.
TTFN
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RE: "Project Engineer" Title
I have nothing to gain from this either.. I don't use ANY title. That is my choice.
If you would have bothered to go back and read my original post, I stated that the use of the term is something that varies greatly by state- that is where this whole thing started. For example, my boss started practicing in Maryland and he told me that back when he was there, pretty much anyone could call him or herself an engineer, regardless of education or licensure.
In TEXAS and only in Texas is what I posted valid.
And unless you studied Law before going into engineering, I don't think you are qualified to state categorically that "the written law is at odds with the information you received". I am quite capable of reading the law myself; I did and I came away with a different interpretation than you. That's fine; intelligent people are free to discuss what they will and have differing opinions. But when I ask the people who are responsible for determining whether something is a violation or not, that should pretty much settle it.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
My point was simply that, as a respected 'professional' (dare I use that word here?), if you are basing any action on the verbal answers given over the phone, it would behoove you to note the date, time, and the name of the person who gave you the advice, lest it blow up in your face. You may have been speaking to the daughter of the brother-in-law of the guy who sits in the cubicle of the guy next to the one where the phone rang when you called. Without verifying your source, you have no more idea who you got the answer from than from a semi-anonymous poster on an internet forum. And without anything noted down, you will never be able to defend yourself if push comes to shove.
I called and spoke to a guy.
Who did you talk to?
The guy who answered the phone.
What was his name?
I have no idea.
In this particular case, there is no particular importance to that issue, this is basically just idle conversation. However, if you ever used the same strategy on anything important, and it came to a court case, you'd have a bit of an issue maintaining credibility.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Just as we have a difference of opinion, so do people in the legal profession; that's how they make their living, by arguing points not that different from this one.
When I read:
"(2) "Engineer" means a person licensed to engage in the practice of engineering in this state."
and someone tells me that I don't need a license to print and use the term "engineer", that's a huge discrepancy, and I have to fall back on what's in the PE act.
TTFN
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RE: "Project Engineer" Title
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Crystal clear...in Texas that is.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
TTFN
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RE: "Project Engineer" Title
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
As IRstuff noted, an oral interpretation by a staff member carries no credence or weight. A written interpretation by vote of the board or by board counsel is the appropriate method to resolve ambiguity and misinterpretaion of the code.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
1001.301. License Required
(f) Notwithstanding the other provisions of this chapter, a regular employee of a business entity who is engaged in engineering activities but is exempt from the licensing requirements of this chapter under Sections 1001.057 or 1001.058 is not prohibited from using the term "engineer" on a business card, cover letter, or other form of correspondence that is made available to the public if the person does not:
(1) offer to the public to perform engineering services; or
(2) use the title in any context outside the scope of the exemption in a manner that represents an ability or willingness to perform engineering services or make an engineering judgment requiring a licensed professional engineer.
(g) Subsection (f) does not authorize a person to use a term listed in Subsections (b)(2)-(6) or a variation or abbreviation of one of those terms
=========
In other words, if you work for a licensed firm, but are not licensed yourself, you can use the term 'engineer' in your title, as long as you don't perform engineering work, or use the term Registered/Professional/Licensed Engineer.
That's fairly clear, isn't it?
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Why would you work for an engineering firm, hold the title of engineer, and not do engineering work (unless you are strictly in management....and then why would you use the title "Engineer" other than you usurp its importance in the engineering world to give yourself credibility).
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Every single licensed engineer I have every met puts P.E. behind their name on their business card, email signature, etc. that is how I know that they are licensed.
If that suffix is not there I assume that they are not licensed, and so far that has always been the case.
But I guess I am in the minority and the issue will rage on for years to come.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
That is exactly what I was getting at. Perhaps our colleagues in other disciplines are getting their panties all up in a bunch because it not that common for them to be licensed. In our discipline, it is almost a given that you will at some point become licensed. Consequently, we can easily identify who is and who is not licensed. The term "Project" is absolutely meaningless in this discussion. Again, I think people are missing the forest for the trees on this one.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Unfortunately this year i've gone within the same company to field surveyor to being asked to pose as receptionist and answer phones for a week while she's on vacation before beginning my undefined furlough (sp?) time. Sanitation engineer may be in my future haha.
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Fe
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
ash060
How do you feel about Lawyer (Juris Doctor) calling themselves a doctor ***** (specialling in law), and using this to gain clients when dealing with medical law suits.
Clearly the issue isn't the use of the name; names mean nothing it is the implied meaning behind the name. We spend lots of time trying to educated friends/strangers as to what we do as engineers and what we are. We have codes of ethics that are part of the education process and are reaffirmed when seeking a licence. Confirmation of this is engineers being ranked high in most surveys as being trustworthy.
To have someone claim part of this good work, possibly eroding this good will by using the name is to me is fraud. I don't know what the rule are for each state regarding what and if you can use the word engineer, but in my opinion unless you have gained the right to share or erode this good will by gaining the required experience/ UNI degree ect, then you shouldn't get to share in any of the good will that comes from/with the name.
Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that they like it
RE: "Project Engineer" Title
Everyone would like a job-title that makes them sound more important than they are. A great example I heard whilst working as a chef during university was Kitchen Hygeine Engineer or a pot-wash to you and me..
I think any company that actively uses the term 'engineer' to describe a person with no engineering experience is deliberately misleading people and as stated before, it could lead to avoidable accidents occuring..