×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

7.0 hits Haiti?
2

7.0 hits Haiti?

7.0 hits Haiti?

(OP)
What's goin' on?  

Somehow, I never thought of this region as prone to earthquakes of this magnitude.  Very strange to me.  

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

The island of Hispaniola (Haiti and Dominican Republic) is actually very active, being located at a plate boundary.  They get a really big one once or twice a century, the last one having hit the DR in the 1940s.  

See Table 3 on page 341 of:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/4312732?seq=2

and

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=aO1P67XkwYwC&oi=fnd&pg=PA63&;dq=seismicity+dominican+republic&ots=G0bthSGV4F&sig=6At4LL7Rlwu_NB765n6ALSRwMSQ#v=onepage&q=seismicity%20dominican%20republic&f=false

While in the DR for a seismic conference some years ago, the organizers drove us out to see one of the major faults, which had caused 100+ feet of displacement of a creek bank over some relatively short period, creating a big "Z."  Truly eye-opening.  Then, they showed us what I think they said was the remains of the first church built in the New World, which was destroyed by an earthquake within a few years.  (My Spanish is not great, so I won't swear that's what I was told.)

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

The 1997 UBC had some seismic risk factors for various non-U.S. regions.  I don't have one in front of me to check on haiti.  Parts of Venezuela were risk category 4, but it seemed like it reduced as you went into the carribean.

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

The location of a small yet apparently unsettled Carribean plate.  And where there are plate boundaries....

Will be a terrible outcome.  Lot of the local housing is nothing but concrete with little reinforcing and i'm certain that what is in place is very likely not placed properly.  Moreover, the heavy roofs will play havoc with the thin brittle walls in the out-of-plane direction.  

Unreinforced masonry/concrete is very popular in these sorts of places similar as it is in Mexico outlying the main city.  Or even in South America.  No steel or good solid wood construction.

Regards,
Qshake
pipe
Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.
 

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

(OP)
From the latest article:

Dale Grant, a U.S. Geological Survey geophysicist in Golden, Colorado, told Reuters there had been no quakes this large in Haiti for more than 200 years.

"There were two major quakes there in 1751 and 1770 but, since then, there has not been a quake of this magnitude," Grant said.
 

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

It would be interesting to look at the damage to the hospital, since hospitals are usually considered critical and designed to a higher standard than normal.

The dome of the government center is on the ground, so apparently, the shake was not is the codes or the standards used.

Dick

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

In my view some of the earthquakes we are seeing these days are adaptation to the loading by ice and snow in the northern continents. These float on the mantle.

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

7.0 located just 10 miles deep and something like 10 miles from Port Au Prince.

If you go to the USGS website you can click on the seismic hazard for the area of this quake and see that it is in a low to moderate zone. Supposedly, the seismicity jumps up as you go east from there but whoever published that seismic hazard map may be re-thinking that area. Such is the danger of using recorded history to guess at millions of years of geology.
 

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

I heard that the hospital collapsed, many cries for help.

Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

i've been following world seismicity for several years now and it certainly seems as if "something" has been building over the past year or so and especially in the past say 3 to 4 months (purely observations on my part...nothing statistical). the only place that hasn't seen a substantial earthquake lately seems to be the ceus which sort of concerns me. the activity almost seems to be cascading outward from the sumatra area north and east across the pacific toward the ceus (again, purely my unscientific observations). the world almost seems to be busting at the seems when you look at the past several months of earthquakes. throw in recent volcanic activity and it makes for interesting scenarios of "what ifs".

Ryan Coggins, P.E., S.I.
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ryancoggins

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

Depends on how you define "near."  The 1946 EQ was nearer Santiago, DR, maybe 150 miles northeast of this one.

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

(OP)
So far, in the pictures I've seen, the only rebar in the masonry I noticed amounted to no more than K-web or, MAYBE, #3 bars.  A pittance any way you look at it.

To be quite frank, I noticed the same construction in the Cascun area of Mexico 15 years ago.  Seemed to be the norm for small masonry buildings of 3 to 4 stories.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

Yes it appeared to be lacking a bit of reinforcement. The news was reporting earlier that Haiti has more stringent guidelines related to the building code.

I just saw a report that they are putting the death toll in at least the 1000's and possibly 100k.

Ryan Coggins, P.E., S.I.
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ryancoggins

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

Construction and design (if it exists)in Haiti is 10 levels lower than China, which everyone ridicules for cheap tools made for U.S. importers. The Chinese buy more Buicks than the U.S., but Buicks are #3 on the import list.

It is just depending on the market requirements and politics.

Real codes and enforcement in Haiti is non-existant. Other islands do have much higher requirements and standards, but good masonry construction is the norm.

I look forward to getting there to look at the failures and causes.

Dick

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

(OP)
What gets me, is that with the economic depravity of the Hatian economy, how the H are they going to rebuild?

Moreover, now that the "big one" has technically occurred for them, will this be enough of a political impetus to change the codes and adhere to them?  Somehow, with the embedded political corruption there, I don't think so...   

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

No, I don't think things will change for them in terms of code and certainly not in practice.  

What I forgot to note in my earlier post is that they don't build with wood and steel or even rebar as it is hard to get and therefore expensive.  Hence in most of the Central and South American areas as well as Carribean the material of choice is masonry or adobe.   

Regards,
Qshake
pipe
Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.
 

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

(OP)
OMG...  I actually saw three #5 bars!  

Problem is, whether it was a beam or column, there was absolutely no shear or confinement steel.  None whatsoever.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

(OP)
I also saw a lot of CIP concrete beams and column "skeletons" with masonry infill that had obviously failed.  No tie from the beams or columns to the masonry "shear walls", and I say shear walls with tongue in cheek.

It is absolutely ludicrous and criminal to me that the hospitals, presidential palace and communication facilities have collapsed.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

Does anyone know how many degreed engineers of the mechanical bent are in Haiti?
I heard a number (21) some time ago that seems awful low.  

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

The number of structural engineers may even be inflated, but the tradition of politics and present economical factors make it necessary to build cheap so it will last as long as the time back to the last seismic event since short term requirements take control. - It gets down to tradition, corruption and politics.

It is amazing how many successful great multi-million dollar baseball players come out of the eastern side of the island (Dominican Republic) where they have some facilities and a taste for improvement, but that is the local situation that was created.

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

I don't know why anyone is surprised by the lack of quality construction.  This is the poorest country in the western hemisphere.  There are plenty of countries much richer which don't have much better construction.

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

(OP)
Based on my experience Hokie, I am not surprised, just very angered for the victims.  Unfortunately, it's all about the money, not safety.  Pathetic in my professional opinion.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

My UFC manual lists Port-au-Prince, Haiti with an 80%g Ss and a 32%g S1, so the earthquake risk was well documented.  They simply can't afford to have the good construction practices necessary for a building that will perform well against quakes.  That's where the aiding nations come in.  If they are serious about helping Haiti, we need to build hospitals, emergency stations, low-incoming housing, etc FOR them, using our seismic engineering expertise.  This is a horrible tragedy but can be an opportunity to change Haiti for the better.  It reminds me of the Chicago fire, in that so much is destroyed, once the rubble is cleared there will be a clean slate in much of the country.

My thoughts and prayers are with all the Haitian people.

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

I agree with steellion. I think there is an opportunity for organizations like Engineers Without Borders to play a role in recovery and help make key structures safer.

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

Who's going to pay for it?  We are.  Read some news articles, alot of major countries are shelling out the cash... after this has happened.

U.S. committed 100 million and more in the future.

Maybe this will prompt them to shell out cash for other countries BEFORE it happens.

On another note.. I was in the DR last summer and suprisingly almost every building that I say being constructed had rebar sticking out of the unfinished walls.  Maybe that's just because it was near the resorts?

Anthony Deramo
American Bridge Company

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

Yep, I'm not sure what that reporter I saw was thinking saying the construction quality was high in Haiti but I've seen many other places confirming what others have said here tha the quality of construction is dismal.

I wonder where the US will pull the money from...(borrow from China again?)

Ryan Coggins, P.E., S.I.
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ryancoggins

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

Anthony - From my limited direct observation of the DR and my observation of Haiti filtered through the media, they are orders of magnitude apart from each other, and have very little in common aside from being on the same island.  The DR is far from being a wealthy country, but there are some industry, tourism bringing in money from abroad, a middle class, etc., and importantly, capital investment.  I don't believe Haiti has much of any of those, for a variety of political, historical, and natural reasons (a discussion best left to a forum on politics or economics, rather than eng-tips).  The DR is actively pursuing seismology and earthquake engineering.  In 2001, the government of the DR sponsored a big conference on seismicity and earthquake engineering.  It was well attended, mostly by Dominicans, with some Cubans, Puerto Ricans, and others from surrounding areas, and a few of us norteamericanos.  [The president of the DR made a quick appearance, as Gov. Schwarzenegger did for the conference in SFO for the 100th anniversary of the 1906 EQ.]  I don't believe a single person from Haiti attended.  Most likely, that was because of the very small number of engineers and seismologists in Haiti that would have the interest and the money to go.

I am not real optimistic about the "clean slate" attracting the kind of capital investment it would take to build a new Port-au-Prince.  Private charities and other governments will be the main forces.  This is very different from the Chicago fire or the SFO earthquake, because outside of those two cities, there was a functioning national economy as a source of capital, along with a middle class, insurance, etc.  The earthquake in Haiti will be far harder and slower to recover from.

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

It is not exactly like the Katrina disaster that happened in 2005,2005..., but there are some parallels regarding construction practices and code enforcement. This is based on 6 months of probing the damage in early 2006. I also spent a lot of time listening to the volunteers and their experiences.

It takes time to get the traditions and "kinks" out and to rebuild confidence in an area for rebuilding.

Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

Even the Presidential Palace and Parliament was destroyed.

I would like to think that the rebuilding process will spark some kind of circulating economy for them.
 
I am pretty sure their hurricane codes are out the door too.

The best teacher in the world is History.   

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

Is there any way for a country as poor a Haiti to build to seismic or hurricane standards as both options add appreciably to the building cost and are not normally complimentary?




 

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

(OP)
That's like saying that it's too expensive to eat healthy food, so I'll eat garbage.  Nevermind the additional trips to the doctor and that expense.  

Bottom line is pay me now, or pay me later.  The problem is that "later" involves payment in lives too.  Rather permanent debt I'd say.

Do it now, the right way.  No one said that it had to be fast and all at once.  Just do it the right way.

 

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

Mike, who is going to do the paying?  Haiti has no money.

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

(OP)
I know that, but they do have something or they would not be in existance.  Point being they did build what they have with something.  Perhaps they should re-think this and build less, but better.

H...  for that matter, if they had been living in tents, the loss of life there would have been minimal.  Tents don't crush people when they fail, but poorly constructed masonry sure does.

I realize that I am being altruistic here, but if you are going to change things for the better, you have to start somewhere.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

Looks like they are going to have to apply for UN aid and get loans from other countries.  I hear their port has been ravaged and cannot stevedore incoming cargo ships. I read that Saint-Marc has a working seaport. That seems 10 times better than shipping in to DR and driving.

Since labor is relatively cheap, maybe prestressed concrete can be "introduced" to rebuild.  

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

HSNIC,
It looks as though the port had only on container crane and it's is leaning precariously while sitting on a collapsed dock. The trouble is that all sea going cargo is containerized and there are hardly any ships that have cargo booms.

I've been talking with an acquaintance who is in the
prestressed concrete business about getting in touch with the proper people about the same thing. The problem is where and who.  The few attempts we have made have been to no avail, with one commenting we want money not advice.

Another idea that crossed my little mind is to construct single units using something approaching a round footprint. This would be very good for hurricanes and could possibly be reinforced for earthquakes.

I am also trying to locate my old ferrocement boat building buddy.



 

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

(OP)
Listened to the news last night and Ex-President Clinton who is the UN emissary to Haiti, claimed that changes in approach have been in the works for some time - Including reinforcing and code changes, and the people supposedly want it.  We'll have to see...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

This picture (forwarded to me by Ahmed Elgamel at UC San Diego) might be the damaged crane to which unclesyd was referring.

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

(OP)
Looks like a definite liquefaction/subsidence issue.  Typical.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

Code changes will not have an immediate effect because there is no real government or enforcement people or mechanism. Most of the common construction was residential away from the downtown.

There rest of the Carribean has successfully practiced good construction for hurricanes and what seismic history there has been using the locally available materials. Even something as simple as vertical steel along and opening and a bond beam as a top course makes a big difference where the construction is controlled by tradition and performance and not by cost cutting.

Codes are not the only answer. - I was involved in the damage assessment starting a day after the Northridge quake and found many problems ranging from poor construction practices to solidly grouting walls where not needed that tended to concentrate loads and prevent distribution to the rest of the structure. The hospital and addition there was a prime example.

In Haiti and similar areas the real human disasters are in residential structures and depend on good construction practices since the buildings are not engineered unless they are commercial.

 

Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

(OP)
News

ASCE urges donations, volunteers for Haiti relief
January 19, 2010

RESTON, VA. — The American Society of Civil Engineers urged its members and partners to join it in supporting the relief efforts organized the American Red Cross. ASCE also encouraged its members to consider volunteering to help at the scene, especially structural engineers or individuals who speak French or Creole. ... Read full article  

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

Four years ago to the day of the earthquake I visited Haiti (Port-Au-Prince) for several days.  Then I visited the DR for several days.  I have never seen two countries that share a common island so diametrically different.  The differences were staggering.  Haiti is one of the few countries that I have visited that I have no real desire to return to.  I'd go back to the DR in a heartbeat.

I wish I had a solution for the situation that they are in but I don't.  And we as engineers function by analyzing problems and coming up with solutions.  Sorry, in this case, I'm stumped.

rmw

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

                    == PRELIMINARY EARTHQUAKE REPORT ==

***This event supersedes event AT00398542.


Region:                            HAITI REGION
Geographic coordinates:            18.428N,  72.875W
Magnitude:                        6.1 M
Depth:                            9 km
Universal Time (UTC):             20 Jan 2010  11:03:44
Time near the Epicenter:          20 Jan 2010  06:03:44
Local standard time in your area: 20 Jan 2010  11:03:44

Location with respect to nearby cities:
 41 km (26 miles) WNW (301 degrees) of Jacmel, Sud-Est, Haiti
 49 km (31 miles) WSW (257 degrees) of Carrefour, Ouest, Haiti
 59 km (36 miles) WSW (257 degrees) of PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti


ADDITIONAL EARTHQUAKE PARAMETERS
________________________________
event ID                     :  US 2010rsbb

This event has been reviewed by a seismologist at NEIC
For subsequent updates, maps, and technical information, see:
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/Quakes/us2010rsbb.php
or
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/
 

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

Haiti does not need loans to rebuild, as they have no economy to pay the loans back.  What they need are grants to help them to their feet.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

The events that have taken place are truly sad and are actually one of the primary reasons of why I became an engineer. I was born in Guatemala and lived there until I was 10 yrs old. Like someone mentioned earlier, the prefered (most economically feasible) construction materials are either adobe (for homes) or concrete (for taller structures). When I was living over there, I saw floods, earthquakes, volcanic activity, water distribution problems, roadways in poor conditions or no roadways at all. And of course too much death for problems that can be solved engineering wise. This was the case about 20 years ago. I don't know what the present state of infrastructure is there now. I'm sure that many advancements have been made but I must mention that not too long ago, approximately back in 2004 an article came out from a Guatemalan Newspaper describing how poor roads converted a short drive into a 10 hr trip. I don't recall the exact text but that was the point of the article.

Now I live in the US and like Concretemasonry points out, we have our own construction technique problems. I saw many of those issues in the Northridge earthquake as well. Like many of you, I see pictures and video of what remains in Haiti and there is lack of proper reinforcement. Not enough rebar in relation to what appears to be the physical size of the member, no shear reinforcement, in some cases no reinforcement at all.

I also agree with others that having stricter codes is not the issue or the problem here. The problem is having enforcement of those codes. Unfotunately I also believe the problem runs deeper than some us can grasp. Like many Latin American countries more education is needed in Haiti, not just in earthquake preparedness but also in general. By the way, no disrespect is meant, I know Latin American countries have great engineers and other great professionals but we need more. Adding to the problem is the corruption that plagues many goverments of the world.

It is frustrating to know that what can be avoided with good engineering judgement can not be accomplished because of political reasons. I really hope for the best for the people of Haiti. My condolences to anyone that is part of this forum and has lost anyone to this tragedy.

I do want to mention one more point and request your input. I believe that at some point one of the reporters mentioned that beyond the immediate epicenter, there were pocketed areas of damage with areas of minor or no damage at all. I would assume that this could be attributed to the different soil profiles in these areas and how the energy was transmitted thru those profiles. Any thoughts.

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

CPENG78 - First, for a very large part of the Haitian population, maybe even a majority, I think the choice is not between poorly constructed housing and proper construction, but between poorly constructed housing and NO housing.  To people who literally eat patties of soil for the small amount of nutrients in them, steel is quite expensive.  Doesn't matter what the building codes say if you can't afford to follow them.  It may be a perfectly rational decision to live in an adobe house with say, 1 percent chance of collapse due to earthquake each year, rather than living in no house at all or a hovel built from sticks and tarps.

Second, it is fairly common to see areas of severe damage interspersed with areas of little damage, like you describe.  Structures on rock or on thin soil above rock tend to be loaded by lower peak acceleration, generally shorter-period motion, and fewer strong cycles compared to those on alluvial or other soils, because of the dynamic response.  It was seen in the Loma Prieta, where areas of fill along the waterfront experienced much worse shaking than areas on rock much closer to the epicenter.  In the 1925(?) Santa Barbara EQ, downtown Santa Barbara CA, on thick alluvium, was severely damaged, whereas higher ground a short way north, on bedrock or a thin layer of soil above bedrock, experienced much less damage.  Think of Jello in an iron pan.  One reason the Mexico City earthquake was so destructive, even though the epicenter was very far from Mexico City, was the thick lacustrine sediments.

rmw - I too would go back to DR in a heartbeat.  Great people, great coffee, great merengue music by Cuatro Cuarenta.  Haven't been to Haiti.

Regards,
DRG

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

(OP)
The 6.1 was downgraded to a 5.9, as if that will change anything.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

Dgillette,
I agree with you that for some it may be a matter of no housing at all, in fact for the great majority that is the case. I lived in an Adobe house in Guatemala. But like I also mentioned, the problems run deeper than a code, even code enforcement that I mentioned, but also lack of education and so much corruption. Yes, there is no point in code or code enforcement if you can not afford it but the corruption of some governments does not allow for even there own presidential palace to be safe from such a disaster, not alone a hospital (which its just a shame). The intent of my statement was not to provide a simplied analysis of the problems but rather mention some of the problems that plague our countries of the world and that I have noticed as someone who resides in the US but comes from another country. When it comes down to it and more than anything - I am angry for the loss of human life, its just not acceptable even when reality hits. Like RMW, I am also stumped.

 

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

(OP)
The western end of the faultline runs into Kingston, Jamaica.  I've been to Puerto Rico, but not Jamaica.  I assume the construction there is much like Haiti and similar results could be expected when the western end of the fault rips.

Positive thoughts, huh?  I wonder if they will get the message...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: 7.0 hits Haiti?

I think the real problem is population. The nationwide population density is 362/sq km. For comparison, DR is 208. Jamaica is 252. GDP per capita is $790. DR is $8,672, Jamaica is $8,967. There simply are not enough resources to support their population at anywhere above a poverty lifestyle.

Alan
"The engineer's first problem in any design situation is to discover what the problem really is." Unk.

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources