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BSME in email signature?
8

BSME in email signature?

BSME in email signature?

(OP)
I work as an applications engineer and reverse engineer for a distributor, and many of our clients have little or no college education. The term "engineer" seems to be loosely tossed around by people all over this industry. I did not take my FE exam, though, so I cannot call myself an EIT. Would it be appropriate to put BSME at the end of my name in my email signature? It doesn't seem to be a title that people often brag about; I'm sure my bachelor's degree required only a fraction of the work it must take to earn a doctorate's degree. It might clear up questions of credibility with customers with whom I have not yet dealt, however. I don't want to come off as arrogant either, though. What do you think?

RE: BSME in email signature?

I would definitely not.


ivymike
Sender of emails, Attendee at meetings, Certificate in office safety, LMAO, TYVM
312.588.3108
 

RE: BSME in email signature?

You can if you like. It sounds like you need a new job where people will respect you as an engineer. (I once worked at a company where the bosses pulled guys off the shop floor and called them engineers, and I found that to be offensive because they weren't any good at it.)

It's not done very often, and might give the impression of an inferiority complex. I'd encourage you to find better employment rather than trying to figure out creative ways to have your e-mail signature.

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

No.  Credibility must be earned, not advertised.

Good luck,
Latexman

RE: BSME in email signature?

Me neither.  I feel a bit of a pseud having it on my business cards, but that's company policy.
 

- Steve

RE: BSME in email signature?

3
Well, I have to go against the consensus (imagine that).  There is no reason not to include any earned accomplishment in your signature (especially an e-mail signature, after a while people don't see them and you will be excused for throwing it up in every e-mail because no one sees their own signature).  There are laws against using the word "Engineer", but nothing prevents you from listing your high school graduation year if you want to.

If you work for a company that calls the janitor a "Sanitary Engineer", then an understated "my name, BSME" differentiates you as a degreed Engineer from the Administrative Engineer who answers the phone.  As to the question about appearing arrogant I think it probably comes closer to making you appear desperate for recognition.  Desperation is not necessarily a bad thing--desperate people are usually hungry and may go the extra mile.

In the situation you described, I would do it.

David

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

"Life is nature's way of preserving meat"  The Master on Dr. Who

RE: BSME in email signature?

In a vaguely similar situation I was told to put BEng on my business cards and can't say I lost any sleep over it.  It was for the credibility reason, not nececssarily directly mine as the companies.

In an industry where PE or CEng was the norm it may look a bit sad.  In an industry where "PIOTSF" is more typical then it may be of beneffit.

Oh, and why not look at taking the FE?

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: BSME in email signature?

How about this: Why not study and take the FE and PE?

To answer the other question no I would not put BSME on your signature.  

I once worked with a guy that had a sig. that looked like this:

John Doe
Area Supervisor
Safety Committee Member
BS Business, U of O
US Navy (Ret)
Chief Petty Officer (Ret)
Airborne Qualified

Most people in that plant had a lot of fun with this plus he was universally disliked but still you don't want your sig to be a resume, but instead should identify you and have all your contact info.

this message has been approved for citizen to elect kepharda 2008

RE: BSME in email signature?

I would leave it off.

And I agree that it is time to start looking for a new job where you are more respected for you abilites.

I have my title in my sig but that is so they know what I do.  It keeps me separated from the program managers, supervisors, and purchasing etc.

A couple of my fellow engineers list our division only but that doesn't tell someone what they do.  Other put engineer for such and such product which is fine.

The smart one's put their first name only with no phone number or other contact info ;)  Wouldn't it be nice to never hear your phone ring?

RE: BSME in email signature?

Titles have gotten cliche in the past 20 years or so.

Ornerynorsk
(that would be Norwegian descent, folks!!!)
BS in BS, Univ of Hard Knocks
Tall Tale Teller
Fortunate to be a real Pub Owner as a sideline
Works when has to, still not enough time for fishing
World traveler
Jack of all trades
Part time slacker - slack time loafer

RE: BSME in email signature?

2
I might think if your *clients* have little or no college education, they might think you have a little holier-than-thou syndrome if you must make a point that you have a degree. I would just put my name and "mechanical engineer" under it, if you must. If non-degreed people at your company are calling themselves engineers, that's their problem, not yours. I only put my title and "PE" when absolutely necessary (i.e. a cold contact with someone and I need to show my qualifications for business purposes).

(Although I have to say, I was irked when watching Howe & Howe Tech last night and one brother kept calling the fabricator a "really good engineer." I hope he has a degree in engineering and is just working there because it's cool. . .Eh, either way, they do much more interesting stuff than me.)

RE: BSME in email signature?

Hi kevindurette

I wouldn't bother.

As someone already stated respect is earned! and some I have worked with have BSc after there name, which after a while could be re-read as "Bloody Silly Clown" well thats the polite version.

desertfox

RE: BSME in email signature?

Actually any puffed-up sig on my outgoing emails would be unnoticeable, swamped by all that pointless, unenforceable legal nonsense our server adds to messages.

- Steve

RE: BSME in email signature?

35 years ago a room mate of a friend in college handed me his business card when I met him, which I thought unusual and neat at the same time.  Activities it said he excelled in were:

Orgies organized
Virgins verified
Wild broncs broke
etc., etc., etc.

It didn't take long to figure out he was full of shit.  He didn't survive the first semester.  His Dad came, loaded him up, and took him to a Marines recruiter.

Good luck,
Latexman

RE: BSME in email signature?

A subtle way you could indicate your college degree. The first way would be to put the type of engineer you are after your name, and that will indicate you have a degree in engineering. I don't think anybody would find it inappropriate.

John W. Smith
Mechanical Engineer
(268) 683-3829



 

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

Ah crum, my grammar is really bad in that last post. Sorry. (I changed how I was going to phrase it but didn't read it through after my edits.)

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

A few people have suggested putting engineer after your name.  I'd be carefull of this depending on your industry, location etc.  In some situations claiming to be an engineer without having PE can get you in trouble.  Although, from your OP, you're perhaps vaguely aware of this.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: BSME in email signature?

2
Sounds like a Jethro move.

RE: BSME in email signature?

I think I like BS Engineer best. I deal with a lot of BS. I wouldn't want to put it on a card or people might start giving me their BS to deal with.

 

RE: BSME in email signature?

Why in the world do you want to add more info to your signature in an email?  You just need

Full Name
Company or Logo of company
Email Address
Phone
Fax

And that already takes up 5 lines of the most important stuff.  The only other thing to add to that would be

Full Name, P.E. or whatever licenses you have.

Anything more than this seems extremely over the top and just wasting space in the email.  If someone contacts you outside of your company they will pretty quickly know if you know what you are doing, or just a janitor engineer with BS.

CDG, Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://cdg-ca.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

Brandon,

Putting your e-mail address in an e-mail is redundant. Fax machines are antiquated. That leaves three lines - name, company, and phone. A fourth can be used to state your title at the company (i.e., mechanical engineer).
 

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

Not always photoengineer.  Sometimes a message may get forwarded or something and what was the 'to' may only show name not the actual email address.

I can't recall the details but I've ended up with something like this before.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: BSME in email signature?

Will it help gain or loose customers is the real question.  If you are dealing with engineers it may help, but if you are dealing with 80 year old mechanics that dropped out of the 3rd grade when they were 15 it may rub them the wrong way.

I deal with "sales engineers" everyday and don't know if any of them actually have engineering degrees or not.  I never think anything about it as long as they are good at their jobs.

http://engineerhumor.com/

RE: BSME in email signature?

photoengineer:  I have seen enough emails get replied back and forth where the original emails addresses are lost.  That's why I would tell anyone to put your email address in your signature.  Currently we have a big project with the developer requesting reply all for any single email.  It's like a 25+ consultant list going back and forth.  Imagine at the meeting table the all together groan of all these people when this was reuqested haha.

I know what you mean though since most email addresses don't get lost in the Matrix.

Talking with others I don't really care what their position in life is, as long as I know what discipline they are coming from, which is generally obvious from their company name.  I know plenty of very good designers that can answer a lot of difficult Civil related questions, that only have a high school degree.  And plenty of P.E.'s that can't answer those questions.  But when you get your P.E., that's more impressive than adding M.D. to your name.

CDG, Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://cdg-ca.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

I agree with kepharda. Seeing the various opinions for each side, it would probably be best to sit for the FE so that you can get your EIT. The other route would be to get your employer to pay for a masters so that you can put MSME behind your name. :)   

RE: BSME in email signature?

Don't do it.  I wouldn't put anything after your name until you are a PE.

RE: BSME in email signature?

My brother in law did a degree in law and then a few years later he did a associates in engineering which somehow made him into an environmental engineer.  He recently became a chartered engineer.  Now I love the guy but when he's emailing me he could at least drop the sig. which uses about half the alphabet.  

Some of replies have included, Real Engineer, Proper Engineer and this morning I simply sent CnH2n+1OH-ic after signing it.

drawn to design, designed to draw

RE: BSME in email signature?

I think even putting EIT in your signature isn't something to do.

Waidesworld, that's funny.  Why not just call yourself a garbage man or whatever other professions now call themselves enegineers. =)

CDG, Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://cdg-ca.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

Another look at things:
Would you sign

John Smith
Podunk Law School 2009?

John Smith
BA Liberal Arts?

I say nope, the only qualification is PE. When you get your PE, you will understand why that is. Until then, keep your hand down, mouth shut, eyes and ears open.

This is from person who is:
Commerical Pilot (land and sea), Instrument Rated
Certified Scuba Diver
Licensed Catamaran Captain
etc etc etc.

The point is, PE is the only qualification (that counts) in this business.
 

RE: BSME in email signature?

Anything less than PE or Ph.D. sounds like a wannabe working too hard for status.

RE: BSME in email signature?

I put credentials in my resumé.  Definitely worth it.

Instead of BSME,  Maybe put your college nickname in the signature for a conversation piece.  A lot of non-degreed people and those with degrees have common ground in sports, especially college football.  

Something like,

Kevin Durette
"Go Fightin Foresters"

  



  

RE: BSME in email signature?

One of my best friends has dozens of degrees and certifications: BS in EE and Physics, MBA, MSEE, Law, CPA, and more.  He really is that talented and driven.

In his office he has only one certificate hanging on his wall: licensed fortune teller in the state of New Jersey.

RE: BSME in email signature?

Photoengineer...to do what you suggest violates many state laws...the terms "Mechanical Engineer", "Civil Engineer", etc. are statutorily protected.  Unless you are licensed, you can't use them.

Kevindurette....yes, you earned the degree, but to use it in your signature is a bit pretentious.  As someone else suggested, pass the FE then use E.I. or EIT, then continue to get your P.E.

RE: BSME in email signature?

Ron,

Most states have an "industrial exemption".  A PE in my industry (medical product development) does not have any value.  I would guess 90% of the mechanical engineers I know are not PE's.

-b

RE: BSME in email signature?

My company has an engineer at a customer site who has "Graduate Engineer" in his e mail signature.

It raised a flag in my mind as to why he did that.  Was he the only degreed engineer at that plant or in that utility?  Or was he just austentatious?  

Overall, it was unseemly.  To this day it strikes me as odd.

I have worked in departments where many weren't degreed engineers but they carried the 'title'.  Some were good at what they did and others weren't.  But everyone in the dep't knew who the degreed engineers were and who wasn't.

When the department's credentials had to be established in a big proposal or the like, everyone's resumes were included as part of the presentation, so the clients became aware of it then.

I am a PE but I don't have PE in my e mail signature at work.  I could but I don't.  But my company does require me to put my job title in my signature which of course is Mechanical Engineer.

rmw PE

RE: BSME in email signature?

Ron the problem with folks calling themselves engineers when they are not licensed professionals is common.  Take a look at this site ( http://www.apl.washington.edu/people/profile.php?last=Light&first=Russ ) and you will find a department head that took the offensive against me when I simply asked what state he was registered in.  He demanding to know where I worked and who I was affiliated with just for asking if he was a licensed engineer.  He never answered my question and he is not licensed in the state, Washington, where he works, as such, I will let you draw your own conclusion regarding the University of Washington department heads.

RE: BSME in email signature?

At the end of the day obtaining qualifications in the field you work in is a very worthwhile thing, it is also a great personnel achievement,however lots of people have degrees,Phd's etc,it is not uncommon for most people working around you to have similiar qualifications.
That being the case the people round you don't really care what qualifications you have, they probably care more about whether you can do your job or not. When I speak to a colleague I don't think oh he is Phd or PE or whatever, I just need to talk to him about the project.
We had a honours degree qualified engineer who astounded our office one day with a telephone conversation, in which several colleagues and myself heard him say that 100 degrees centigrade (boiling point of water) would be warm to the touch!
On another occasion we discovered he couldn't understand simple lever problems or do simple trignometry, now would it make any difference if he put his letters after his name on his emails as to what people thought of him.

desertfox

RE: BSME in email signature?

I receive emails from some people with "Six Sigma black belt" in their signature.  It's quite handy really, because it means I'll need to explain things really carefully and slowly to them.

- Steve

RE: BSME in email signature?

I too have similar experiences on the matter. I found that the individuals that have 80 or so characters after their name (of which I have no idea what they are) are the most incompetent of all.
It is the classic game play of inferiority complex.
I remember this one guy could not fit his name in one line with 9 pt. font.
I personally don't put my credentials after my name. There are times when it is appropriate, but within a department for example it is not necessary.  

peace
Fe

RE: BSME in email signature?

Personally, I would not do it either.  I feel that the respect you are looking for will come as you earn it.

Telling people that you deserve it with BSME after your name will not make them believe it.  Ther results your clients need will.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: BSME in email signature?

If you have a lot of engineers (or almost any professional support staff like accountants, planners, programmers, etc.) working in your company in many different fields, it's taken for granted that you have a BS.   Or higher.   Don't make yourself looking like your grasping for any attention you can get by advertising you only have a BSME.

I would not put any degree on a business card other than PhD or Doctor of Engineering.   

On the other hand, if your company does have many divisions (electrical, controls, piping, fluid flow, programming, mechanical design, construction, steel, civil, or whatever) then adding a simple "Mechanical Engineering" DOES help separate you from the other departments and areas and DOES give the reader a quick summary of what you're field you are ready to help him in.    

RE: BSME in email signature?

bvanheil...the "industrial" exemption does not extend to the use of the protected terms, if used in the public realm.  While you might not be required to be licensed, you also can't imply that you are...thus the protected terms.

CRG...interesting!  He probably thought you were from the licensing board and he was about to get reamed!

SomptingGuy...thanks!  That was my laugh for the day!shadeshappy

RE: BSME in email signature?

Ron,

The state I am licensed in does not regulate the word "engineer". It only regulates the term "Professional Engineer." The same is true in Washington.

Your state may be different...but if so, please post here and I'll look up the laws of your state.

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

Florida laws would specifically allow the case I suggested above.

"Any person who is exempt from licensure under s. 471.003(2)(j) may use the title or personnel classification of "engineer" in the scope of his or her work under that exemption if the title does not include or connote the term "professional engineer," "registered engineer," "licensed engineer," "registered professional engineer," or "licensed professional engineer."

3. Any person who is exempt from licensure under s. 471.003(2)(c) or (e) may use the title or personnel classification of "engineer" in the scope of his or her work under that exemption if the title does not include or connote the term "professional engineer," "registered engineer," "licensed engineer," "registered professional engineer," or "licensed professional engineer" and if that person is a graduate from an approved engineering curriculum of 4 years or more in a school, college, or
university which has been approved by the board"

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

Photoengineer...yes, that's correct.  You made it clearer than I.  My point was that to use the term in the public realm rather than specific to an exempt employment, is misleading and that's what the licensing boards get upset about.  Each state seems to treat it a bit differently, for instance:

The Georgia law states....(f) Any person offering services to the public who uses by name, verbal claim, sign, advertisement, directory listing, or letterhead the words "Engineer," "Engineers," "Professional
Engineering," "Engineering," or "Engineered" shall be guilty of a misdemeanor unless said person has complied with the provisions of this chapter.


As you noted in the Florida law, it also requires graduation from an approved 4-year curriculum.  The intent, according to my conversations with the General Counsel for the Florida board, is to prevent the use of the term "engineer" to imply something the individual or company is not.  

One blatant example here locally is a company that calls itself "Weather Engineers".  They have no engineers on staff, they are not a licensed engineering business, and they practice in an area that clearly requires engineering licensing at certain levels for design (HVAC).  They do HVAC servicing...a typical air conditioning repair company.  The problem is that they use the term "Engineer" in their company, which to the general public, implies that they are something they are not and that they have expertise that the other HVAC servicing companies don't have.

My apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread!!  Mea Culpa.

RE: BSME in email signature?

Are they allowed to call themselves Weather Engineers?

I know a lot of Architects that don't have their licenses yet,  are very good at saying what they can and cannot do.

1 of 3 partners at my company has their PE.  I make sure to tell clients that I do not have my license yet.  Would I put Partner or Owner in my email sig? Never.

CDG, Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://cdg-ca.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

What the ?%%# would a "weather engineer" do anyway, engineer the weather?  Analyst, observer, predictor, monitor, pundit more like.  An engineer would need to modify it.  Maybe they fire chemicals into clouds.

- Steve

RE: BSME in email signature?

Though I agree that putting the degree is tacky, I'm surprised by those who suggest just name and contact. Its common for me to look to the signature for a person's position within their company if I don't already know.

So, I'd suggest "Mechanical Engineer" or similar, depending on what your company calls you.  I'm not in an industry which uses PE certification, so frankly everyone worked up over the legality issue sounds ridiculous to me.  What, the janitor can be a sanitation engineer but the guy with an earned degree can't call himself an engineer because he hasn't gone the PE route? So long as you're not mis-representing yourself I see that as a non-issue.

Unfortunately, the "what your company calls you" part can be overly complicated. My company has umpteen engineering disciplines represented across many departments, but only about 5 actual HR titles for engineer.  The title indicates your (supposed) level of experience/skill (and pay), but tells me nothing about what discipline or department you represent.  This leads to a situation where about 2/3 of the employees list some variation of their department/specialty but the rest list their HR title.  As interesting as I find your pay grade (Engineer III for example), it would be much more useful to know what you actually work on (Systems Engineering).  

I think the same applies to your situation.  List your discipline/department; not your degree.

On a related note, is there any way to change the field in parentheses after our EngTips handles?

RE: BSME in email signature?

YoungTurk,

I like you comment "so frankly everyone worked up over the legality issue sounds ridiculous to me." There are more than a few PEs on here that appear to be short on engineering work to do.

I have my license but recognize that there are many many engineers more skilled than me that aren't licensed, and I don't go around telling them they aren't engineers (including most of my graduate professors at the University of Washington).

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

A non licensed architect can get in big trouble for calling themselves an Architect.  Same applies for Engineer.  Just engineer gets tossed freely by more everyday people.

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://cdg-ca.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

Brandoncdg,

As I've stated on here before, that's not right, either here in Washington State or in California. Only "registered engineer", "licensed engineer", or "professional engineer" are regulated in California. The plain jane "engineer" is free for anyone to use.

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

I think the engineering boards should crack down on the sanitation engineers. How can we make a living with that kind of competition? There ought to be a law!

RE: BSME in email signature?

Wasn't thinking about this one right at all, but there is a little more to the titles.  Copied from the California Consumer Guide.  http://www.pels.ca.gov/pubs/consumer_guide.pdf

It is illegal for anyone to practice or offer to practice civil, electrical or mechanical engineering
or to use the title "Civil Engineer," "Electrical Engineer," "Mechanical Engineer," "Geotechnical
Engineer," "Soils Engineer," or "Structural Engineer" in California unless he or she is currently
licensed as such by this Board.
Other engineering titles regulated by this Board include branch titles, which are not practiceregulated.
Anyone may practice these branches of engineering, but only engineers licensed by
the Board may use the branch title as a personal title or credential. Title licenses are obtained
through a process which includes demonstrating qualifications and experience to the Board.
The authority to use the following titles does not permit the person to practice civil, electrical
or mechanical engineering:
Agricultural Engineer
Chemical Engineer
Control Systems Engineer
Fire Protection Engineer
Industrial Engineer
Manufacturing Engineer
Metallurgical Engineer
Nuclear Engineer
Petroleum Engineer
Traffic Engineer
It is also against the law for anyone other than a professional engineer licensed by this Board to
use the titles "Professional Engineer," "Registered Engineer," "Licensed Engineer," or
"Consulting Engineer."

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://cdg-ca.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

So, if you're doing engineering work in a non-exempt industry and are not a PE, what the heck are you supposed to call yourself? Engineering Practitioner? Engineering Analyst?  

RE: BSME in email signature?

Not sure what a "non-exempt industry" might be.

Note that the Calfornia PE Act, as cited above, also includes the following:

6747. Exemption for industries
(a) This chapter, except for those provisions that apply to civil engineers and civil engineering, shall not apply to the performance of engineering work by a manufacturing, mining, public utility, research and development, or other industrial corporation, or by employees of that corporation, provided that work is in connection with, or incidental to, the products, systems, or services of that corporation or its affiliates.
(b) For purposes of this section, "employees" also includes consultants, temporary employees, contract employees, and those persons hired pursuant to third-party contracts.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: BSME in email signature?

If I had a mechanical engineering degree, and wasn't talking to the public (newsmedia or people buying houses, for example) or the government officials that are issuing permits, I'd call myself a mechanical engineer.

If I was designing a product, I'd call myself a design engineer.

PEs that have a problem with that need to find a hobby or are in desperate need for more work.

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

I know this is a bigger deal with Architects, that's why they were my example.  So now thinking about this more, who is the one telling on people?

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://cdg-ca.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

photoengineer,
Your statement that

Quote (photoengineer):

PEs that have a problem with that need to find a hobby or are in desperate need for more work
is unacceptable.  Those of us that are making those points are simply indicating that there could be a problem with it.  None of us could care less what you call yourself.  We keep bringing up the proscription on "holding yourself out to the public" as an engineer to try to help people avoid problems.  You've said several times above that California doesn't have this proscription, but brandoncvg posted an extract of the California law that does in fact include the proscription.

I have known people who put the word "Engineer" on a business card that they gave to contacts in the public that had consequences (one guy gave his card to his kid's teacher, her husband turned the card in to the board in Texas and he was issued a "cease and desist" letter with threats of fines).  The boards do not go after this violation, but have to act on complaints.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

"Life is nature's way of preserving meat"  The Master on Dr. Who

RE: BSME in email signature?

I find it amusing that engineers can be so vocal about the lack of respect they get compared to other professions, but are so resentful of the idea of being held to a similar standard of education and certification.

When I go to a place that's called "clinic" or "hospital", I expect those called "doctor" to be trained and licensed.

RE: BSME in email signature?

Photoengineer....I'm a P.E. and I have plenty of work to do...always have and hopefully always will.

David's comments (zdas04) are exactly on target.  This is offered as help to those who might find themselves at odds with various state laws. They vary from state to state, but in general, licensed engineers are protected from non-licensed engineers usurping the term.

I know that if a person graduated with an engineering degree, that individual would expect to be able to use "engineer" as a title.  In many cases they can; however, when services are offered to the public at large or when opinions or evaluation are given to the public at large, they cannot use such terms unless properly licensed.  The licensing is not an intrusion to the profession in my opinion.  It is truly there to protect the public.  Further, if you are not licensed and you make a bad engineering decision that results in a loss, then you can be held liable only in a civil sense.  If you are licensed and you make the same bad engineering decision, you can be held criminally liable.  Believe me,  that little distinction will make you think twice about your engineering decisions.  

If you are a licensed engineer and you don't respect that premise, in my opinion, you shouldn't hold a lioense.

Ron
 

RE: BSME in email signature?

My brother who is a surgeon thinks engineering is much harder than med school.  I think that's why a P.E., S.E. or similar has a lot of respect in the community.  Most people when asking what my degree is in, don't really know what more to say after I tell them.  

Now realize that eventually soon the board will require some form of masters to take the P.E. test.  Registered engineers want to be paid as much Doctors and Lawyers and have the same respect.  I can't wait to get my license.

I don't think anyone who has their degree or learned this as a trade has anything to prove.

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://cdg-ca.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

Uh....photoengineer...you might want to read a bit farther down in the law in the state in which you are licensed...it includes the term "engineer" as one who is regulated under that law. (See Title 2, Chapter 15, Part 17, paragraph 37-67-102, Montana law).

That is similar to many states...in one form or another, they regulate the use of the terms "engineer", "civil engineer", "mechanical engineer", "professional engineer", etc.
 

RE: BSME in email signature?

Ron,

The quote from the chapter you cited is:

"(b) by verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card, or in any other way represents that the person is a professional engineer or through the use of some other title implies that the person is a professional engineer or is licensed under this chapter; or"

It does not include the general term engineer.

I think Professional Engineering is a profession worth respecting, but it is the title Professional Engineer that should be protected, not the general term engineer (unless your state protects the general term engineer).

I have many friends (as in 90% of my coworkers) who are not licensed and callt themselves engineers. I do not make a fool of myself by pointing out to them that none of them can call themselves engineers. Some of my corworkers have PhD in engineering - do I dare tell them they are not real engineers? No way.

 

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

Folks,

I want everyone to know that I respect the profession of engineering in general and the professional engineer in particular. What I am saying is that it's not wrong to call yourself an engineer if you have a degree in engineering and no license.

What's wrong is to hold yourself out to be a professional engineer (or other term that indicates a state-licesend type of engineer) when your not.

I work at a company that has about 20,000 engineers and maybe 200 - 500 of them are licensed. The other 19,500 are still engineers, just not Professional Engineers.
 

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

Photoengineer, as someone in exempt industry, who doesn't have their PE (time/cost/effort not obviously worth it for what I do & my background) your viewpoint from someone with their PE is refreshing.  Perhaps I'm mistaken for thinking this and am responsible for the low pay/status a lot of you seem to think you get etc. however there it is.

Anyway, do we really have to do the PE V non PE/who gets to be an engineer... debate again that comes up so frequently with no resolution?

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: BSME in email signature?

As an engineer I can read all the snippets of law from various state codes and come away confused.  Let me throw out my situation and ask for people to comment on what is acceptable.

I have a BSME from Kansas State in 06.  I passed the FE exam.  I am currently working as a Liasion Engineer for an MRO designing repairs for aircraft nacelle systems.  On my buisness card I have the title Mechanical Engineer, however I don't really pass a lot of them out.  I don't offer my services as an engineer beyond the company I work for.  Oh, and I live in Oklahoma.  

Am I in error?  When people say licenced engineer does that mean specificlly having passed the PE or is there some other licencing that is available.  I ask because I know in aerospace there are not that many PE's.  It's becomeing more popular, but when i hear PE, I think Civil or Arch.  If I'm just desinging a new widget I don't think I need a PE to sign off on the drawings for it.

In your answer to my questions please share if this is how you interpret the law, and or if this is what common practice is.  Which way are the engineering professions going?

Thanks, and as an Engineer, I both want to obey the law and meet peoples expectations about what I do and what I'm authorized to do.  I also want to be the best engineer I can.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

RE: BSME in email signature?

Normally I would ask you to start a new thread, but this one is so far into the weeds that maybe it is alright.

First, it is rarely good idea to ask medical advice from your bridge club or legal advice from a bunch of Engineers.  There are shades and nuances in this topic that are way beyond most of us.  We tend to be better at solving physical problems than at splitting hairs.

That said, most states have laws prohibiting someone from "holding themselves out to the public" as an Engineer without a state license (P.E.).  None of the state boards have a large enforcement staff (in my state the enforcement department is one retired Engineer and his administrative assistant) and rarely go looking for violations.  If a complaint is filed, then they will usually try to find an administrative solution (most common is a "cease and desist" letter with no further penalties if you comply).  

So, you have a business card that says "Mechanical Engineer" which is probably against the law on its face (giving the card to someone outside your company might be offering Engineering services, it is hard to tell).  On the other hand you are not alone.  Thousands of individuals without a P.E. have similar references on their business cards and stationary and nothing ever happens to virtually all of them.  Every now and then there is a complaint and the people are asked to stop "holding themselves out" as Engineers.

I used to work for a large multi-national company with a lot of Engineers.  We all had that word on our business cards.  A year before I got my P.E. the company got a letter from the Texas Board of Licensure for Professional Engineers requiring them to stop this practice.  All the Engineers in the U.S. got a letter from Legal telling us to destroy any cards that had Engineer on them unless we were P.E.'s.  I can't remember a single person that destroyed their cards and in a few months no one could remember having gotten it.  I don't think the Board ever followed up on the letter after the company sent them a copy of the e-mail that went out.

As Engineers, compliance with the law is a significant requirement.  Getting in the habit of ignoring laws can be a slippery slope, but this one seems to be a really little law (right up there with the prohibition against jay walking) and each of us should spend a moment thinking about the value/risks of complying/ignoring it.

David

RE: BSME in email signature?

Kirby,

Aerospace work is generally regulated by the FAA and exempt from state licensing boards. For example, DERs that you work with very likely do not hold PE licenses even though they do offer engineering services. Most states don't want to challenge the federal government on who has jurisdiction, so they don't fight that battle.

You're fine putting Mechanical Engineer on your business card in my opinion. If not, and the state lets you know, you can always change it later.

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

Well said, David.

RE: BSME in email signature?

Ron & David, I understand where you are coming from but I think you are slightly off the mark. I think photoengineer is on the right track. If you have completed your Bachelors Degree in Engineering then you are an Engineer and have the right to call yourself an engineer, period. If your state, territory or country requires you to be licensed to practice then that is another story, it does not mean you are no longer an engineer, just not a licensed engineer, and by law cannot practice.

If your state doesn't require you to be licensed then your company or the senior engineer who is licensed and signs off on the work is liable.
I agree Professional Engineer, and Chartered Professional Engineer in other countries, should be protected from miss use by unlicensed engineers. The term engineer and in particular civil, structural, mechanical engineer, etc, should also be protected, from the general public or people w/o a Bachelors Degree (or higher) in engineering. That includes preventing Engineering Technologists and engineering officers from calling themselves by the title of engineer unless they include the correct classification of engineering to which they hold qualification.

Obviously you can only practice within your legal right based on the relevant laws in your region but you are still an engineer whether licence/registered or not.

Back to the original question, add your title, don't add your degree. You only get a suffix for your name when you hold a license or membership to a particular organisation. I see very often people add BEng(mech)(hons) but it is not a title and should be left off your signature. As covered before, adding Mechanical Engineer already means you hold that degree. if you are further qualified and hold a license then you can add PE or CPEng.

Just my 2c

RE: BSME in email signature?

EngAddict,
You may think that we are "off the mark" based on your own logical argument.  Your logic makes some sort of sense, but unfortunately it has exactly nothing to do with the way the laws are written.

David

RE: BSME in email signature?

Thanks David, Ron, Photoengineer et.al.  I think we are all thinking along similar lines.  I don't expect people to whoop and holler over my listing of mechanical engineer as a job title.  In a couple more years I'll try and pass the PE exam even if it's not critical to my industry.  Mostly because my brother passed the PE and I need to show I'm as good as he is. :)

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

RE: BSME in email signature?

Kirby,
Good luck, I think you have as good a reason for sitting for the exam as I've ever heard.  My reason seems lame by comparison (I needed it to be able to register my company as an Engineering firm in this state).

David

RE: BSME in email signature?

EngAddict

Quote:

As covered before, adding Mechanical Engineer already means you hold that degree.

No, it doesn't mean that you hold the degree.  It means you are calling yourself a Mechanical Engineer.  That's why the laws are written the way that they are.  Absent legal prohibition, you can call yourself anything you want.  That's the problem.  If you hold a license, it means you have met some specific requirements (including validation of that degree) and you are willing to take on the responsibility of your duty to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the public as a licensed engineer.  

While an unlicensed person might well hold himself to such same standards, there is nothing that tells the public so, other than his ability to market himself.  As we know many people, including some engineers, are good salesmen.  If you were a member of the public who expected qualified engineering services, would you want that qualification determined by ones "gift of gab"?
 

RE: BSME in email signature?

I sincerely doubt that any regulatory body could take enforcement action against a person from putting "Joe Blow, B.A.Sc. mechanical engineering" or the like on their business card or e-mail signature, if indeed that person had proof of the degree in question.

If the person put the words "professional", "licensed", "certified", "registered" etc. in front of "engineer", they're in trouble because they're holding themselves out to have a license that they do not possess, potentially misleading the public.

If the person lists their TITLE as "mechanical engineer", they MAY be in trouble in some jurisdictions and WILL be in trouble in others, because this implies that their job description includes engineering that, depending on the jurisdiction, may require a license to perform.

As to whether the threat of enforcement against misuse of title is a credible one, that also depends on your jurisdiction.  If you have a licensed colleague or client who has a bee in their bonnet about licensure requirements, they may (in fact they may have a DUTY to) complain against you, at which point the threatening letter will come in- and it'll go to your boss, not just to you.  In our jurisdiction, you are generally sent a cease and desist letter rather than being handed a fine automatically.  

Common work-arounds for non-licensed engineers include avoiding listing a job title at all, rather choosing to put "Engineering department" etc. on their card.  "Project manager", "technical specialist" etc. are also popular.
 

RE: BSME in email signature?

I don't think someone with a degree in Mechanical Engineering working in an exempt industry should call themselves a "technical specialist". That's not good for our professional as a whole anyway that you look at it. Giving engineers the title of technical specialists sounds like a good reason to pay them less money, and we all know management would love to pay us less money.

(I'm speaking only to those working in exempt industries.)

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

Funny.

Where I work (UK engineering company), a "technical specialist" is generally someone whos worked up through the various engineering grades and would rather stay technical than go into management.

- Steve

RE: BSME in email signature?

moltenmetal...Our State Board of Professional Engineers sent my former employer a cease and desist letter to stop using the term "Project Engineer" for anyone other than a licensed engineer.  We were using the term for Engineer Interns (EI) as well as licensed engineers, depending on their project involvement.  We were also told we could not use any title that contained the term "Engineer" in it unless the person was licensed.  Oddly enough, the state's DOT uses titles such as "Engineer I","Engineer II" and similar, even though those engineers are not necessarily licensed.  A double standard, I suppose.

Their ruling seemed to be slightly at odds with the state law at the time (it has since changed), but they were not willing to back off.  Our corporate counsel just told us to comply and not make a big deal out of it.

My point is that, yes, they do enforce such on occasion.

RE: BSME in email signature?

(OP)
My current profession is exempt from licensure under F.S. 471.003(2)(c)

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/STATUTES/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0471/Sec003.HTM

With this particular exemption, F.S. 471.031(2) says it's illegal to suggest that I have a license, but it goes further to say that it's illegal to use the term "engineer" without an approved four-year degree.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/STATUTES/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0471/SEC031.HTM&Title=-%3E2009-%3ECh0471-%3ESection%20031#0471.031

RE: BSME in email signature?

kevindurette...as you found, Florida is a little picky on this issue.  I practice in Florida and it is my primary license state...

Did you graduate from a university in Florida?  Most require the EI exam or at least highly encourage it prior to graduation.

RE: BSME in email signature?

(OP)
UCF didn't require it, but they encouraged it. Like an idiot, I put it off a few times and never got it done. I'll hopefully register this April and study my [neck] off, but I graduated in December 2007, and it's going to be rough to say the least.

RE: BSME in email signature?

When I graduated from Florida Atlantic University (BS Ocean Eng 1987) the EIT was not required for graduation. As the job I had then and those since have not required a PE (Although there were some PE's working at at least one of the companies along the way.), I have not taken the EIT. At this point I doubt I ever will. I would encourage those who are in school now to take the EIT or FE or whatever is is called now while the subject matter is fresh.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: BSME in email signature?

Similarly what do you guys put in your email signature when applying for jobs?

Would you state your degree title in your signature for information or would this show an inferiority complex?

Slightly off-topic - on your CV, as a title
is writing your full name (first name, all middle names and last name) over the top?

Curious to see what you guys think.

RE: BSME in email signature?

Maximise, I wouldn't put the degree in the email signature for job application.  You can either put it in the body of the email, or better yet, an attached resume.

I would think your full name is only needed if that's what you want to be called.  Use the name you go by on a daily basis.  Even if they need that information for a security clearance or other reason, they can easily get it later once you have the job.

RE: BSME in email signature?

How you write your name on the top of your resume/CV is purely a stylistic choice.  I would avoid it if you have 4 middle names.  but I might also include it if you have short common first and last names.  John Zerubabel Smith is just a bit more memorable then John Smith.  I usually use my initial or leve my middle name out, since my middle name is Wayne.  I don't want a prospective employer to think I'm a murderer.  

I would probably not put my degree in my email signature, but might put in a general title for the type of job I'm going for, such as mechanical engineer.

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

RE: BSME in email signature?

Well, we've strayed so far from the OP (you all still sound riduculous re:calling yourself an engineer, but apparently I'm exempt from your ridiculousness) I might as well add my .02 about name choice.

Be careful what you put on that resume.  When I got my first professional job, I put the full given name up there.  Thought it looked impressive.  So when they hired me, that is what they put me in the system as.  And put on my name tag.  On the paperwork.  On everything.  That is who I was.  It didn't take long before I was sick and tired of people calling me by my full name, which I NEVER used previously in day to day situations.  Sure, you can get the people around you to use your short name, but if your nametag, business card, email and whatever else have the full spiel, your going to get a lot of that too.

Suffice it to say I'll never send out a resume with anything other than what I want to be adressed as in person on the header again.  I do have a somewhat common name and dreadful middle name, so I do add the middle initial.

RE: BSME in email signature?

If I ever found out that a candidate I was interviewing had to ask a public forum how to sign an email or how to format his name on his resume, he would go in the round file immediately. Seriously? Should you use your whole name or not? The university system has failed you miserably if you cannot decide this on your own. Do you twitter in the morning to figure out what color pants to wear, too?

RE: BSME in email signature?

I must have missed the classes on appropriate name choice and title identification.

Meanwhile, you seem to have missed the classes on casual conversation and attention to detail.

RE: BSME in email signature?

rofl2      

peace
Fe

RE: BSME in email signature?

(OP)
mechmama, I came here looking for advice. Did you honestly think your comment would cause me to reconsider this whole premise? It smells like "ad hominem" if you ask me. An email signature is an integral part of the media. I have my own interpretations of what its elements mean to me, but in the absence of conversations about this, how am how am I to know the general consensus of what the engineering public thinks about them? I ask these things to seek two-way understanding. Your comment presumes that I was supposed to have been born with such insight. I spent my time in college working low-end jobs and essentially studying physics, and this issue never arose.

RE: BSME in email signature?

mechmama...lighten up....these issues are not taught in engineering school and sometime not clear even in the in-house mentoring process.

kevindurette....keep applying.  Someone will find unity with your technical qualifications and appropriateness.


Good luck.
Ron

RE: BSME in email signature?

At least he had the good sense to ask, instead of just plowing ahead and embarrassing himself.  You could learn...

RE: BSME in email signature?

Kevin,

YOu're not alone. I go by my middle name rather than my first name. It wasn't unitl I was 25 that I finally learned how to write my name to cover this. (Writing J. Geroge Smith is how I write it, but that didn't look right when I was 12.) I had to ask around and keep my eye open to figure out how to do it.

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: BSME in email signature?

Mechmama,

People vex about there resumes and CVs because there are people, apparently like you, who will round file it for the most minor of issues.  Given the difficulty of finding a job, asking about such minutia as to how to write your name is both a valid question and an important one if it prevents someone from tossing your resume.  We are not English majors, and some of us don't even have English as our first language or Western European/American culture as our native culture.  I don't think it's right to skewer someone for trying to get their CV just right.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

RE: BSME in email signature?

I find that in the world of business communications, there is a distinct lack of any sense of how to present yourself and your company in a professsional atmosphere.  Many people have signature lines that have favorite quotes, etc, and they use these on professional communications, and the often look distinctly amateur.

I note that the bigger multinational firms tend to have rigid corporate standards for email signature formats, but most others pretty much leave it up to the individual.

It certainly never hurts to get input from others on what looks appropriate and what doesn't.   

RE: BSME in email signature?

Here in the states generally the only 'titles' I ever see used by 'engineers' are so-called professional certifications such as PE, or in the case of Manufacturing, CMfgE and CMfgT.  Occasionally if someone has a PhD, you might either see the title Dr. or PhD appended at the end.

Now in Europe, at least dealing with engineering people, they seem to go in big for adding not only certifications but also their highest degree achieved even if it isn't a PhD or equivalent.  Now I have several friends and co-workers here in the states (engineers or otherwise) who have a PhD and while some might indicate that on their business cards or business email signatures, most do not (of course Medical professionals are the exception, but then in their line of work I guess 'Dr' has a different connotation altogether).  However, I can't recall ever running into a European, of any profession, who if he/she had a PhD or equivalent, would not be using the title Dr. in even casual situations and would certainly include it anytime his/her name appeared in print anywhere.  I don't know if it's cultural, ego or what, but it always struck me as a bit pretentious.

Anyway, that's my two-cents worth.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

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