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Returning to a former employer
2

Returning to a former employer

Returning to a former employer

(OP)
I have a situation that I have not encountered before.  I received a call last week from a former supervisor (whom I am using as a reference while job hunting) to see if I was interested in returning to work for a former employer.  Now, I figure that if the owner (small company, 15-20) asks the supervisor to call me, then the ball may not be in my court, but it sure is headed in my direction at least.

Before I left, I had a loooong exit interview with my supervisor, telling him everything.  Some may agree with the exit interview, some not.  Regardless, I had 'assumed' that I had burned a bridge (most of reasons for leaving were due to personality conflicts with the owner) and so was quite surprised to get a phone call about returning.  I will admit that leaving there in the first place was definitely a "grass is greener..." situation...which I have found to be spray painted concrete.  *sigh*  I have also thought for quite a while that most of the conflicts could have been worked out, but I have never wanted to jeopardize my position at any job by "barking back", so I would look for a new job...then leave.

So, as a summary, I would LOVE to return, but need to discuss a few items with the owner.

1.  conflict resolution (ask him, while he's in a good mood, how I should handle future clashes / differences with him)
2.  I really can't take a pay / benefits cut, but I really enjoyed the work I was doing when I was there (and can't stand what I'm doing now)

Questions:
Is money or happiness more important?  just opinions, I know every situation is different, just looking for a general consensus.

What other issues have any of you ever had when you have returned to a former employer?  I've never returned to a former employer, so this is new ground for me.



 

"A Designer knows that he has achieved Perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away"  - Antoine de Saint-Exupry

RE: Returning to a former employer

A little more info might help us in general.  How long were you there, how long have you been gone?  Were these conflicts with the owner ethical in nature, or did you guys just not get along?

I was asked to return to a previous company after being gone for 2yrs.  The ball is in your court, and I think since your company is so small maybe more so.  Be fair to yourself, stick to your guns, don't play games, and don't try to squeeze water from a stone (ok, I'm out of figures of speech).  Have it in your mind of what it will take for you to return and don't deviate.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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RE: Returning to a former employer

Happiness in what you are doing is always better than money. You spend more awake time at work than at home so why not be happy for the better part of your day?
 As for the conflict resolution issue, whatever the outcome get it in writing and ask if it outlives the current owners commitment. If the current owner retires/sells etc. whare will you be?
 In these economic times the pay / benefits issue must be cleared to your satisfaction and again, in writing.
 The "in writing" may seem a bit overboard but if they are seeking you, you may never get this opportunity again. If you are seeking them then ask yourself what may happen if you don't get it in writing.

RE: Returning to a former employer

(OP)
I was at the former employer for 2.5 years, and have been gone for 2 years now.

Conflicts (looking back from 2 years perspective) were more along the lines of 2 hard-headed people butting heads.  Yes, mountian goats do it all the time, but my wife tells me that I only have 2 feet...and they're not hooves :)

"A Designer knows that he has achieved Perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away"  - Antoine de Saint-Exupry

RE: Returning to a former employer

2.5 years and head butting with Owner? The Owner will not change nor is he going to leave the company. Unless YOU change drastically, you will find yourself in the same situation.

So go back there only if you liked there before. Do not expect drastically different environment.

Listen to wife, perhaps the person who knows you best.

 

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Returning to a former employer

I can't imagine the owner changing his ways.  And there will always be that awkwardness, at least there would be for me, of why you quite the first time, hanging over everyone's head.  

Would the whole office know why you quit?
Are you sure that your supervisor informed the owner of why you left?  He may have chickened out knowing that he would basically have to tell the owner it was because of his (owner's) personality.  Most of my supervisors would have played it down or made something up.  I have quite because of owners/supervisors, but would have never given that as a reason.

Loving what you do is important, but just make sure that that is worth enough to overshadow the issues you may have to face again.

To me, dealing with coworkers, especially the owner, is part of the job.  Regardless of what my actual job function is, if my coworkers are hard to get along with, then my job as a whole sucks.  Obviously, the owner was hard enough to deal with that you quite.

That would have to be one heck of a job.  Returning to an old job is very simlar to taking a counteroffer from a current employer after you give your notice.

RE: Returning to a former employer

In a nutshell, I wouldn't do it.

There are a lot of engineering jobs out there. You can find something new.

Cedar Bluff Engineering
http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

RE: Returning to a former employer

I have quit and returned before, as is the situation where I currently work.

When I left a few years ago, I told them what it was that caused me to want to leave.  When I interviewed with them and was re-hired some time later, I told them exactly what things would prompt me to want to leave again if they were to be repeated.

Both sides have done their very best to avoid a repeat of things past, now that those things are clearly identified.  It's workable...maybe I am just lucky enough to work with some very professional, fair and compassionate people here.

In my mind, happiness should always be chosen before money.

My sad experience is that the grass is never "greener" anywhere else.  It's just that there are countless shades of green, but they're all green, even the ones that are stained towards the "yellow" side of green.

(Let that analogy sink in a bit...)

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Returning to a former employer

"My sad experience is that the grass is never "greener" anywhere else.  It's just that there are countless shades of green, but they're all green, even the ones that are stained towards the "yellow" side of green."

Being raised in the country, I know that the reason for much green grass is the amount of sh*t used to fertilize it.

I left an employer for a job with better technical challenges but relatively worse pay.  Three years later one of those "restructurings" brought about by change in government regulation pretty much killed my happy little job and I eyeballed my former employer, catching him at a time when he was "over a barrel", so to speak, in one of his field offices.  I basically wrote myself an offer and he had to take it.

He was not resentful up front, but in a couple of years he got the idea that he could demolish me by going after some of my staff, and I had to quit.  In talks with my (former) co-workers later I found that he'd been plotting his move for months.

old field guy

RE: Returning to a former employer

I used to work at a boomerang company - a lot of people had at some point left, then come back.  In many cases I suspect it was because as you say the grass looked greener untill you realize it's astroturf or paint etc.  Heck, if I could, I'd go back.

Certainly I'd think you need to address the reasons why you left to have some hope of not regretting it within weeks.  Sounds like Snorgy's advice is good on that front.

On the money V happiness thing, think about it practially.  There's no point killing yourself in a miserable job for more money than you need.  However, is it fair to take a job you love if it pays so little that your dependants (assuming you have some) suffer?  If it's just you then obviously do what makes you happiest overal between the work/life balance.

For my part, I think the happiness at work thing is over rated these days. I'd have thought if nothing else the current economy would have made people more realistic on this front at last.  Throughout history, I doubt most people have done the work they did because they 'enjoyed it', my guess is for the most part they did it to survive, and at most chose the least bad option.  What makes us today think we're so special that we only need to do things we like?  I spend a lot of time and effort trying to make sure my kid doesn't take this kind of attitude (yest you have to clean your roome etc. even if you don't like it) and the come on here and see it being espoused all the time.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
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RE: Returning to a former employer

If the reasons that caused you to leave your prior job have not been corrected, then you will still have to deal with them if you return. And this may prove more difficult now having voiced your reasons for leaving in detail during your exit interview. The owner is unlikely to change, so it sounds as though you will be the one who will have to change in order to adapt to this environment. If you feel that this is not practical or likely (I suspect it isn't), then you will find yourself in an unhappy circumstance again. If it is still more attractive than where you are now, you can consider making the move back to your former employer. But I would not recommend it for the reasons stated. I suggest that you look elsewhere. Why live an unhappy past experience over again? Learn from it and move on to something that suits you better.

Maui

RE: Returning to a former employer

I would only go back if I was looking for more, you sound like you are working now.  It would be too uncomfortable for me, its one of those situation that I wouldn't want to return to.  I would just look for another job while I work at my current job.

RE: Returning to a former employer

With the benefit of hindsight how many of the arguments you had were down to you?

Most people I know at some point have fallen out with their parents, because they were always telling them what to do and knew nothing. Looking back nearly all those people now think their parents were looking out for them and actually offered very sound advice. The I always know best is very much like the grass is always greener.

So if you think most of the previous problems were down to you, go back. If you still think most of the problems were down to your old boss, don't go back.
 

RE: Returning to a former employer

Ask if layoff's are coming. Ask how the company is doing financially. Do a little research on the company.
They could bring you in only to lay you off instead of someone else.
Been there...

Chris
SolidWorks 09 SP4.1
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Returning to a former employer

True, probably will not get an honest answer, but does not hurt to ask.

Chris
SolidWorks 09 SP4.1
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Returning to a former employer

I would think it is highly unlikely that a small company of that size would be hiring one day and firing the next.

RE: Returning to a former employer

SKIP the conflict/resolution interview when (if) you go back.

How many issues you butted heads on were so severe that someone would be hurt, cost would go up/down dramatically, etc.  In other words, how important were they really?

If you can't change, don't go back, the owner won't change.  But examine why you were in conflict . . . was it personality or was it ego or was it something really important to the ouitcome of the work?

I never appreciated an employee creating a problem because they felt they were right when in fact it really was just different ways of skinning the cat.

Conflict can be good if handled correctly (make every attempt to allow everyone to save face) but if it is all the time, then you are just a pain in the ...

Good luck.

 

RE: Returning to a former employer

I haven't seen anyone ask if you will be doing something different from what you did before. If you will be doing the same thing you did the first time and not gaining any new technical skills, don't waste your time. (It's the old 20 years of experience or one year of experience 20 times question.)

RE: Returning to a former employer

I would only return to a former employer under a few conditions:

1) A sufficient amount of time has passed since I left, say at least three years.

2) The company was large enough/I was away long enough that I would be doing something different or unlikely to be working with the same people I did the first time around.  

3) If I left because of a certain person(s), I would want to know that either they left the company or I would be in a position to not have to deal with them.  For example I left my last job primarily because the VP of Engineering was a total douchebag.  If I heard he moved on or I was applying for a job in a different department, AND they were willing to pay me what I wanted, I would go back there in a second.

The problem is that loyalty is a one way street.  Employers expect 110% loyalty of their employees, and once you leave or even hint at leaving, you are already seen as not being a team player.  I would not want to return to a very small company shortly after leaving and have to live with the stigma of being looked at as not a team player.

RE: Returning to a former employer

BTDT. Worked out really well, both sides knew what they were getting into. Big pay rise didn't hurt either.

You know what to expect. Since you have had a bit of time off from each other talk to the owner and develop a plan about how /you/ are going to resolve this headbutting game. Cos /he/ isn't going to.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

I rarely exceed 1.79 x 10^12 furlongs per fortnight

RE: Returning to a former employer

[
Laid off in a business downturn.  Eleven months later, the boss begged me to come back, offering "anything but money", because business wasn't _that_ much better. ... and he was facing a lawsuit over a mistake that I would likely have caught.

I couldn't think of anything else, so I asked for deferred compensation, i.e., money, later.  Here in The Colonies, the IRS has odd rules about it.  Basically, if there's a _contract_ involving compensation at some time in the future, even an unspecified time, you have to pay income tax, on all of it, now.  There has to be 'a substantial risk of forfeiture'.

Not having anything else anyway, I went back to work, after extracting a handshake from the boss.
Coupla years later, another downturn, I was out again.  ... at which point, I asked for my deferred compensation.

In response, the boss admitted discussing it, but denied having made an agreement.  There are no witnesses to the handshake.  There is a witness to the conversation, but he claims to not remember any of it, even after he too was laid off.

So I got another job, another year went by, and the boss's personal secretary called, and didn't quite offer a job.  

I didn't quite decline an offer that wasn't quite made, and I was working anyway.  I like the guy, but I can't trust him.


The story's not over.  The boss is back in court, and called personally to ask me to be an expert witness in a patent matter.  So I sent him a bill, with interest, just as a friendly reminder.  No response so far, none seriously expected.
]


Go back if and only if:
- You can find a way to tolerate conflict as interaction.   Your wife probably knows better than you do.
AND
- You get substantially more money.

Don't accept _promises_ of money.  winky smile
 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Returning to a former employer

Same, BTDT, but situation was radically different.  In my case, the company was something like 40,000 employees, and 15 yrs removed, so no personal ties, no history.  Our group was then sold to another company, but no complaints, been ther 12 yrs now.  If I include the previous employment, it's a total of 15+ yrs.

TTFN

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RE: Returning to a former employer

I got downsiized as a result of the economy from a job I loved working with great people 5 minutes from home. I know it wasn't anything personal, and if things picked up, I would probably go back. I'd probably ask for more $$$ if they were the ones to call me.

David

RE: Returning to a former employer

(OP)
Here's the update (meeting was last night)

We talked about the conflict issues.  Quite a lot was discussed, to the point that I would be very happy to return.  He said a few things had changed (design meetings, more than owner input, etc.) which, funny enough, are the same things that annoyed me the first time (that they were not happening)  Talked about all the new work coming in, what I would be doing, etc.  Custom machinery business is very good, it seems.  They had talked about hiring a 3rd designer earlier (Sept), but now one of the 2 they have is being promoted to shop foreman, so as of Jan they'll be at one designer.  So, no danger of layoffs or downturns...

Owner stated that he asked how the other employees would feel about my possible return and they were all enthusiastic about it.  Frankly, that made my day.  I know all of them and remember how they reacted to someone else returning while I was previously working there, so it wasn't simply a "ploy" or anything of the sort.

So, everything is good, right?

Nope.  Turns out that he wants to offer less than I'm making now.  About $4/hr less for 6 months, then a 'raise' to $1/hr less than now.  My wife and I crunched some numbers, and looked at the happiness / paycheck ratio...and I just can't afford to go lower than $0.50/hr less than now (new company pays all medical, so it works out)  Technically speaking, if I take the pay I was making 2 years ago, then add a 2.5% 'cost of living increase' every year since, then I would be at my present pay.  I can understand his point of view, but...

So, now I get to call him this morning and tell him that I can't accept the job for a starting pay any less than 50 cents/hour MORE than he wants to go to after a 'trial' period.  *sigh*  I really have no idea if he would be willing to go that much higher than his intial offer, but I'll find out.

On the other side, I do appreciate everyone's comments / suggestions.  They were very helpful in getting my head in the right place to prepare for the interview / meeting.

I'll post another update after the phone call :) *que the daytime soap opera music...*

"A Designer knows that he has achieved Perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away"  - Antoine de Saint-Exupry

RE: Returning to a former employer

You need to ask for a LOT more money.

He called you.

You _have_ a job.  He doesn't have to know you hate it.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Returning to a former employer

Where I am at, a good rule of thumb that has always worked for me is that if the raise in pay is less than 10%, the move usually isn't worth making.  I have done a couple of "salary straight across" moves, and I ended up being just as disappointed, trading one set of frustrations for another.  (Hence recently returning to former employer; but even that move came with an upwards adjustment in pay.)

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Returning to a former employer

As I posted before, "Have it in your mind of what it will take for you to return and don't deviate."  That should have been a clue to calculate your present pay with a 10-20% increase for experience/skills that you have gained in the past 2yrs.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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RE: Returning to a former employer

If you've worked there before why do they need a trial period as such.  I could just about see maybe a retention bonus of some kind to make sure you don't jump ship but a trial period?

Seems you're being more sensible about the 'happiness' V 'able to pay the bills' debate than some seem to suggest which I'm pleased to see.

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RE: Returning to a former employer

"Talked about all the new work coming in, what I would be doing, etc.  Custom machinery business is very good, it seems.  They had talked about hiring a 3rd designer earlier (Sept), but now one of the 2 they have is being promoted to shop foreman, so as of Jan they'll be at one designer."

Please make sure they are not offering you a job because they are desperate. I've seen a situation were a Designer left so there was a big hole in the department to get the work out the door. For them the practical solution was hiring another designer who left previously just because he was trained and will get up to speed quickly. Instead of hiring someone new that they can't trust with big project for some time.

If it's the same situation then you have all the rights to ask for a big raise. Don't forget YOU are making them a favor by going back not the other way around. As other have said THEY called you!

Patrick

RE: Returning to a former employer

Man, would I take them for everything that I could.

They were looking to hire a 3rd designer, but now they only have one? Therefore, they have plenty of money to hire you at whatever you feel you're worth. If they don't agree--walk away.

V

RE: Returning to a former employer

When they want you back, you should definitely ask them to pony up the extra cash.  If they are squabbling over $0.50/hour...it's really not worth it.  What does that work out to over a year....$1040/year.

Add in an extra 9K a year and then talk to him.

drawn to design, designed to draw

RE: Returning to a former employer

Also BTDT, and I have to agree with the others.  You currently have a job.  They came to you.  They have a serious lack of skilled personel.  You are a known quantity to them, so no trial period should be necessary.
You should be able to get more than you are asking for, and they are not in a position to offer you less than what you currently make.
If you were unemployed, they would have more of an upper hand.  You aren't so they don't.
As has been pointed out, the grass is greener on the other side until you get there, look down and see the fertilizer.
 

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Returning to a former employer

(OP)
Latest update:
They agreed to the extra money :)

So, I wont be LOSING money, but the extra I was making will be gone.  However, as my wife (and kids) put it, "You mean you'll come home HAPYY?!?  Yeah!!!"

To me, that's worth it :)

Anyway, thanks to all for your suggestions!  This is exactly why I needed the Engineering viewpoint.  Thank you.

"A Designer knows that he has achieved Perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away"  - Antoine de Saint-Exupry

RE: Returning to a former employer

Glad you're happy, but you'd have come home even happier if you'd gotten an extra 10k/year out of them...
Sounds like they were in a corner.
The least they could've said is "No.

David

RE: Returning to a former employer

It looks like things worked out for you.  When you return, don't get caught up in the feeling that they did you a favor for taking you back, don't feel indebted to them for your employment.  I'm sure you have learned something in the two years you were with another company, try to bring the good things you saw with you.

As the saying goes, "Money can't buy you happiness, but it sure can put a smile on your face in the meantime." smile

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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RE: Returning to a former employer

Gstoner...things change in companies.  Sometimes less so for small, singly owned companies, but nonetheless, circumstances might have changed.  Take a hard look, but give it a chance.  

I've done it, albeit for a much larger company.  I was gone for 6 years, came back under much better conditions and stayed for 12 years...then just tired of corporate crap and decided it wasn't right for me.  One friend has been with that same company for 35 years, so it's right for some...not so much for others.

If you have issues with the owner, then put them out there.  You have nothing to lose at this point and you might reach a "meeting of the minds". Further, he/she might appreciate your candor and consider that a point of integrity that is valuable to his/her company.

Good luck.

RE: Returning to a former employer

You'd be surprised at how people change.  Maybe the owner sat down by himself and made a realization. It could just be him personally.

For just being there 2.5 years, you must have made some impact.  Seems like you made the right choice. Good luck  

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