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The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

(OP)
Had to include the smirk in the title considering the number of posts we've had in the past about eco-friendly bulbs (i.e., LEDs and CFLs) from crackpots, tree huggers without facts, etc.  I figured this would be easy enough to point to if any more show up.

It's a short little article about some of the not quite false, not quite true advertising the lighting industry and politicos use to push their agenda.  It doesn't say eco-bulbs aren't eco-friendly, just that their not as friendly as many want them to be (or claim):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8406923.stm

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

Without a regulating body or standard the manufacturers have printed "optimal" data on the packaging of CFL's and LED bulbs. In the US the DOE and EPA have been working on qualification data for LED (SSL) for a long while and are getting more companies to fall in line with the data on the packaging. There will come a point where the consumer will have to get familiar with certifications in order to get their monies worth.

If you check the DOE site for CALiPER test results, the DOE states that most of the bulbs they test do not meet the manufacturers specs. The lousy products on the market will taint the perception of high efficiency bulbs making high quality products more difficult to sell considering the initial cost difference.

Some of the people pushing low quality product do so knowingly. That can be said for many industries. Many people that have jumped on the idea of higher efficiencies for lighting have good intentions but may not have the technical background to discern the good product from the bad. That doesn't make them a "crackpot" (although I will conceed that there are plenty of crackpots to go around!).

LED bulbs are coming. Making them high quality AND affordable to the consumer will be enough of a challenge without having to overcome the impression that they are junk.  

Harold
SW2010 SP1.0 OPW2010 SP1.0 Win XP Pro 2002 SP3
Dell 690, Xeon 5160 @3.00GHz, 3.25GB RAM
nVidia Quadro FX4600
www.lumenflow.com

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

(OP)
Harold,

The "crackpots" I'm referring to are like the guy who keeps posting on here (and getting kicked off) while getting his facts mixed up (such as LEDs use mercury, not CFLs, and therefore are dangerous to humans, etc.).  I'm all for LEDs over CFLs, and I know the better units out there win in the energy efficiency race alone (not to mention light spectrum quality, directionality, etc.), but the main issue for me is the manufacturers lofty claims that simply cannot be verified in a real-world environment.  Sure, a CFL may be five times more efficient than an incandescent, but as the article points out, that's only true if you're comparing a frosted envelope "soft-white" incandescent in a "room temp" area... move to a clear envelope on the incandescent and put the CFL in a fixture, suddenly you're at three to one.  Bulb lifetime is another big one for me (particularly with LEDs, where now everyone and their uncle specifies a 50k or 100k hours lifetime with no understanding of what that figure means.

Anyway, just thought the 10,000-foot view article would be of interest to some...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

Yeah, it has always been true - "Figures can lie, and Liars can figure"

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

Dan,

I know who you are refering to. I had a "discussion" with him deleted from the forum not that long ago! The 50 - 100K hours is another area of contention. The DOE tests point out several products that didn't survive initial burn in. To some extent I feel for the engineers that have to deal with the marketers when it comes to pegging numbers on the box. Quantifying lighting performance is rarely straight forward.

I book marked the article for reference. Thanks for posting it.

Harold
SW2010 SP1.0 OPW2010 SP1.0 Win XP Pro 2002 SP3
Dell 690, Xeon 5160 @3.00GHz, 3.25GB RAM
nVidia Quadro FX4600
www.lumenflow.com

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

Well, actually LEDs are almost worse than just using CFDs.  The basic material is an amalgam of indium, phosphorus, arsenic gallium, etc, none of which can be processed without noxious chemicals.  The various processing steps to make the diode incur toxic or hazardous gases and chemicals.  The clear and colored packages incur a different set of chemical processes that are not exactly environment friendly as well.

An amusing anecdote: about 30 yrs ago, I worked for an aerospace company with a semiconductor lab.  One day, the facilities guys come rushing into the lab, asking everyone what we put down our drains; it turned out that our drain pipes had pretty much corroded into nothingness.  "Well, we have some sulphuric, nitric, phosphoric, hydrifluoric, etc., acids, but they're all very small quantities."  Needless to say, that started off a major expenditure and effort to replumb all our drains into a neutralizer system.

Nowadays, we probably would have gotten our asses canned, and our company fined.

And let's not forget the erstwhile Fairchild Semiconductor plant in south San Jose that required building a slurry moat around the entire plant to contain the carbon tet that seeped into the ground water.

So, yes, that guy might be wrong about mercury, but LEDs are probably not better, overall.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

(OP)
IR,

During processing, controlling the chemicals used (and their runoffs) is a significantly easier job... you know exactly what's being used and where, so even if LED-based processing used nastier materials, their not released into the environment (unless the company you worked for had a hand in it winky smile).  It's the end-of-life phase of a product that's so problematic (and the main shouting point for eco dudes).  When a bulb is thrown away, it's crushed, releasing any chemicals inside.  When an LED is thrown away, you have to pulverize the encapsulant to get anything out of it... any nasty chemicals inside are miniscule in content, with most not being harmful in their processed form anyway.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

No argument, there.  I, however, being the argumentative type, have customers that have injunctions against "any" hazardous materials in the end-product.  So, I politely ask them if they have a few billion to spend on developing a new infrared detector that doesn't use mercury cadmium telluride, or indium antinmonide, and are they willing to fund the development of a laser receiver that doesn't use indium gallium arsenide?

Their safety will usually splutter and smoke and say that they didn't really mean "any," and so, I then ask for exemptions, which are then granted.  

Ditto the requirement for lead-free solder...

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

In a way, it's a bit exciting.  

I remember reading papers about tin whiskers, but by the time I started working, the problem had been mostly solved, so I'm actually a bit excited about possibly seeing them for real... winky smile

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

(OP)
I'll send you a container of iron filings.  The directions are simple... "Spread liberally on all PCBs and apply power."  All the nostalgia of tin whiskers without all of the wait.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

Not to be a spoiler, but in the application of plant growth the LED's can be deemed as more efficent. Maybe some other applications too.

It gos like this, plants respond better to some light frequencys better than others. With an LED, you can tailer the color to the most responcive frequencys. With an incondecent, or floresent, the tailoring of color frequencys is difficult, so the common method is to blast the plants with an almost full spectrum of light.

Note: I recently noted plants growing mostly in the direction of a floresent black light. It's not very efficent, and the life is short, but it does work, or grow.

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

(OP)
Cranky,

Plant growth is a given, not a bubble-burster.  LEDs are typically considered "more efficient" because of their directionality and wavelength selectability, and grow lights are an ideal problem to be solved with them.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

I'm just pointing out a perception problem.

In general the HPS looks like the more efficent light source, but it as most has drawbacks.

The problem I've seen with floresent, and LED's is finding the color frequencys that I want (Back to the general lighting). The problem being is I want the near UV, and near IR frequencies.

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

Some LEDs contain phosphor anyway, more or less just like fluorescent bulbs.

I've confirmed this myself. I have an LED bulb in a bedside table lamp (an 'early adopter' experiment). The LED bulb has an obvious afterglow after the power is cut (turned off, lamp unplugged, bulb unscrewed).

 

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

IRStuff--

I won't pass on the "tin whiskers" comment.  A huge German-named electrical conglomerate sold my employer some medium-voltage variable frequency drives with (you guessed it) tin-plated copper bus interconnects in what I (an old electrical power guy) considered to be a very close proximity.

We had two catastrophic failures, both covered under warranty.  The manufacturer's root cause failure analysis for the failures was tin whiskers.  The bus connectors are now nickel plated.

Fortunately I laid back a supply of real Pb-Sn solder that should last me until I'm too decrepit to use it for my hobbies.

old field guy

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

Lead-free is only a serious issue with ROHS and European customers.  The US seems to be staying off the bandwagon for the most part.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

Quote:

The LED bulb has an obvious afterglow after the power is cut (turned off, lamp unplugged, bulb unscrewed

Sleepless night?   

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

I have a $300+ LED spotlight I bought years ago. At that price it must have been the very first one. Being 3W it has about 100 LEDs in it.  Hideously not-bright.  I ran it with an OPTO22 solid state relay.  Just the snubber circuit in the SSR kept the light at about %70.  So really, my control just shifted from 100% to 70%.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

dpc: "Sleepless night?"

LOL. Discovery, confirmation, then just pure entertainment.

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

(OP)
cranky, The largest use of LEDs is aimed towards general lighting.  In that case, the color is tuned either by the phosphors or by multiple LEDs with differing wavelengths for a change in perceived wavelength.  Preceived color is irrelevant to a plant, obviously, but that's a significantly smaller portion of the pie.


VE1, most white LEDs are phosphor based.  They use a blue die with a yellow-emitting phosphor, which blends to white.  Some of the more "advanced" phosphor LEDs use multiple phosphors to cover the spectrum a little better... these are typically used where color rendering is more important, such as in displays, museums, etc.


IR, California has taken to sippin' the RoHS Kool-Aid in a hard way.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

I wouldn't sleep too soundly, nickle can grow whiskers too.

I was thinking a good name for one of the cats living in my barn could be "tin whiskers".

LEDs will only make sense when they come way down in price.  I bought one on a lark at Wally World.  It was around $35 and had much less output than the flood light that it replaced.  I tried it out only because I kept breaking the flood light with vibration/shock, and thought the LED would not be as susceptable.  But $35 vs. $4?  Not gonna happen in the real world!

www.MaguffinMicrowave.com

Maguffin Microwave wireless design consulting

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

Right or wrong, LED's are the next wave.  You can't stand in front of the "perception=reality" train for very long.  And that is exactly what marketing groups and governments base their decisions on.  I still find gas lamps charming.

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

ornery,

You mean you've given up the whale oil lamps? ;)

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

Lime light, lime light, come on chant with me, "lime light".

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

Whale oil has been really hard to get lately :>)

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

Hey Shhhuuuuush about the tin wiskers - work in a data centre and mention tin wiskers and you can see all the facilities guys go a whiter shade of pale. Its still an issue and one that is causing headaches - a manufacturer of computer racks used tin plated metal work within the racking assembly and this has reared its ugly head once again. The wiskers growing and then when the racking is worked with these whiskers fall down and can get into the data cabling or even the power distribution causing the type of failures that just can be tolerated in the business.

RE: The "truth" about eco bulbs ;-)

ruggedscot-

At least tin whiskers in a data center environment do not usually end with clouds of black smoke, scorched insulation, twisted bus bars and 9000 horsepower enjoying some serious (and fairly long-term) quiet.

However, MY failure point was pretty easy to locate. (Uh, it's right there, in the middle of the big black smudgy spot, where you see the shiny bits from the arc.)

We play with some fun stuff...

old field guy

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