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Head bolt block thread failure
2

Head bolt block thread failure

Head bolt block thread failure

(OP)

Hello all,

I recently got a car with a four cylinder turbo Lampredi Twincam in the workshop with a recent rebuild from some 'expert' engine builder. The engine started to knock whilst in my care so I stripped it to find it failed on worn out crank bearings (mains and big end), scuffed bores and pistons due to what looked like oil starvation. A large dent in the pressed steel sump pan was blocking the oil pick up, it must have been done when dropping the engine out or putting it in by whoever built it and caused oil starvation.

When taking the head off the bolts were caked in copper grease.

So fast forward to re-build time and I'm doing it by the book, but when I come to torque up the head bolts one pulls the thread out of the cast iron block. Take it apart, repair, try again. Another one fails.

I'm oiling the bolts and letting them drain for 30 mins as per factory instructions.  The head gasket must be fitted dry and clean so it bonds to the block/head, yet when I take it apart oil has been squeezed into the mating surfaces.

So I'm thinking maybe the bolts (stretch type which don't need re-torqueing) are past their best and I need new ones.

 The first question: When they are worn out or stretched too far is this what happens?

And how do I oil the bolt threads without it getting under the gasket? Presumably with less or thinner oil?! I'm following the factory manual instructions, but it seems the excess is squeezed out of the threads and under the gasket.
How is it getting under here? Cappilary action, but why doesn't it get passed through the gap and up into the bolt holes?

Hope you guys can help here,
Thanks.

 

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

Just off the top of my head, I think it's pretty obvious that someone has already overtorqued this engine beyond simple repair.  I'm not familiar with your engine, but if it is similar to a Fiat 124 then we are in business.  One thing that comes to mind, aside the obvious pulling the threads out of the block (Cut to the chase and repair them ALL) is the need for new bolts.  If they are stretched enough to bottom in the block drilling combined with even a smallish amt of oil, the "squishing out" you see is a result. I'm a bit surprised you have not twisted a head bolt.

Sounds like the previous rebuilder did not have a clue and pretty much screwed you in the process.

Rod

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

I had a '80 Mazda 2.0L SOHC engine in my sons vehicle.  We bought it with a blown head gasket.  During teardown, I noticed that the bolt head seemed to turn before they came loose from torque.  When I measured them, they were over 8mm longer than spec.  They were bottoming out in the block before they were tightening the head.  These were not torque-yield bolts.
The threads in the block were also jammed.  I cleaned out approx 10mm of bolt sealant from the bottom of the threads.  Chasing and cleaning the threads and installing a hardned washer under the headbolts allowed the head to be torqued to spec, and the engine lasted until the vehicle was wrecked about a year later.

In retrospect, the head has been removed at least once before, maybe twice.

Franz

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
 

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

2
hi Deltona

Yes its a good idea to re-new head bolts but I am not clear from your post as to whether the bolt failed or the internal thread, I presume the bolt.
Very often head bolts are taken to 90% of yield stress during assembly and because torqueing isn't the most accurate method of achieving preload that can get to the yield point.
If your internal threads are failing then sound like there getting to much load.
Have a look at this sites might give you some back ground

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Screws/index_screws.htm

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Screws/Preloading.html
http://www.boltscience.com/index.htm

desertfox


 

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

(OP)
Thanks for your pointers Rod/Franz and yep, the 124 does have the Lampredi Twincam too, just an earlier version. The ones I work on are the later turbo 16v type with twin balancer shafts which were used in the integrales and Fiat Coupe (16vt).
You are also correct in that I am trying to sort out someone elses mess, but as cheaply as possible because the customer is now having to pay twice and things being as they are I can't turn the work down.
The last engine builder either didn't notice or didn't want to know that a lobe on each of the cams was partially missing too! It was certainly like that when he rebuilt it as there was a shim the size of my doorstep in the corresponding tappet bucket....

The head bolts aren't too long, I checked this before fitting. The block has gone through a thorough process of:

Dip in de-grease/strip tank, powerwash
Dip in de-rust tank, powerwash
Core plugs removed
Skim block top
Rebore & hone
Clean out all threads with tap etc, etc

I wonder if the threads have been weakened by excessive copper grease, like some kind of hydraulic lock? If the bolts are beyond their elastic limit then would they pull the threads out of the block rather than snapping?

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

hi Deltona

Normally the bolts should break before stripping the internal threads however you mention the block is CI which is a brittle material maybe you haven't enough thread engagement and that would cause internal thread stripping, what grade are the bolts are they the right grade for the head.
If you can post some figures like bolt size and grade,torque,thread engagement we might be able to assist you further.

desertfox

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

It doesn't matter if the bolts ARE the correct length...it only matters that they are not bottoming out or "hydraulicing"...block threads CAN be damaged in such a condition as well as broken head bolts.  "Copper grease" ?  I have used CopperKote antiseize on occasion but not on head bolts.  I can see a problem with that.

Interesting...I have had a myriad of problems with Fiat...broken timing belts/idlers, seized spark plugs and such.  Never had problems with excessive cam lobe wear.  

I don't normally use oil as a thread lube, too easy to get too much and end up with the "squishing out" you mention. I use a small smear of ARP moly lube on mine with the appropriate tq reduction recommended by ARP.

Rod

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

(OP)
Hi DF,

I'm afraid I don't know much about the spec of the bolts (beyond what I can see and measure of course). I just assumed they were standard, mainly because they look it and have the 'Ribe' fitting on the head.
I have ordered some standard bolts which will come tomorrow, at least then I will have another element which I know is correct.

Rod, when I said I knew the bolts were the correct length I meant that I have compared them to others and checked the thread hole depth in the block, there is plenty of end clearance.
The worn cam lobe problem is prevalant on the 16v engines, rare or never on the 8v heads. The 8v turbo engines are generally more robust than the later 16v ones.
I recently stripped an engine down with 5 of it's 8 lobes one one cam missing!

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

Hi Deltona

How much of the threaded portion of the bolt is engaged in the head?
You need to have the bolt engaged completely in the female threaded portion, if the bolts are stopping short of the end of the tapped hole that would suggest why there failing.

desertfox

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

(OP)
Hi Desertfox,

Thanks for persisting, I fitted some new standard bolts today and they all held fine. They were the same length as the others.
It would be interesting to know why what has happened did, but without extensive testing which I have no funds or time for we can only guess.
With no real knowledge I am kind of thinking that they were old, had undergone too many cycles, become non stretch and lost their ductility......

Deltona.

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

hi Deltona

What size of bolts are they? any markings on the head of the bolt? also can you tell me thread engagement and torque setting?
Now were the bolts failing or the internal threads? The reason I ask is that normally a well designed joint would have the bolts fail before the female threads,if the bolt and female threads are different materials the thread engagement is usually greater than one bolt diameter.
Materials of the same strength only need about one bolt diameter thread engagement.
Now if the bolts are tightened to 90% yield stress using torque figures its very likely they have yielded due to the error with torque settings when first assembled and so therefore they should be changed when the head is stripped down otherwise they can fail if reused.
If your female threads are failing it could be the bolt isn't filling the thread on assembly there could be a lot of other reasons for the female threads to fail be thats one of them which is why I askd about thread engagement.

desertfox
  

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

(OP)
Hi Desertfox,

I don't think there is much to be gleaned from any info I can get on these bolts but:

M10 x 1.25.

Length of thread in contact with block: 20mm.

No markings on them whatsoever.

Torque figure is difficult to define, but sequence is: 20Nm, then 40Nm, 90 degrees, 90 degrees. This gives an ultimate torque of about 65 - 70Nm

As per my original post, the threads in the block are failing.


Thanks for the excellent link, I shall digest it (and the rest of the site/forum) when I have some quality time, it's been a long week!

Deltona.

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

It sounds like they were torque to yield bolts which are a 1-use bolt.
 

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

Hi Deltona

I am not sure I follow your tightening sequence but is this what you mean? ie:- if you set the wrench to 20Nm and tighten up and then turn an additional 90 degrees, set the wrench to 40Nm tighten up and then another 90 degree turn.
I have looked at several sites for thread engagement and used your 60Nm as a figure for the tensile force calculations.
Page 23 of this link is the formula I based my calculations on:-

http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/1990/RP-1228.pdf


Minimum grade of screw for 60Nm would be a grade 10.9

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Screws/Screw_loads.htm


I used a friction factor of 0.1 and used the formula:-

tensile force = torque/(0.1* bolt dia)

that gave a force of 60000N in the screw

using this in the formula from the NASA link for thread engagement and transposing to find engagement length I get a thread engagement of 41mm.
No need for alarm just yet as I have made estimates for the

Cast Iron strength of 150N/mm^2

Friction Factor = 0.1

In addition there is a huge error on correlating torque values with tensile load but it gives an idea of how to avoid the thread in the tapped hole stripping.


desertfox

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

(OP)
Hi DF,

The torque sequence is just as I wrote it: 20Nm, then 40Nm, 90 degrees, 90 degrees.

Thanks,
DT

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

hi Deltona

Well thanks for that, what I don't understand is how you can add the torque's to get 60Nm also what does the 90 degrees mean.
If you set the torque wrench to 40Nm you can't get more than 40Nm thats what I am struggling with.

regards

desertfox

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

(OP)
Ah, I see. It seems the extra two 90' turns give (practically speaking and not theoretical) an approximate increase of 25 - 30Nm, let me explain:

Set the tool to 20Nm, tighten bolt. Set to 40Nm, tighten bolt.  Set tool to 90' (or use a 90' angle indicator, set square etc) and turn bolt through 90'. Repeat.  Having now given the bolt a complete 1/2 turn (or 180') in two stages the job is done. This is as per factory manual.

I arrived at the 25 - 30Nm figure by putting a spare bolt on a spare head and block, tightening to the above sequence and then trying to move it again, it took around 65 - 70Nm to move the bolt further.

Hope this is clearer!

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

Hi Deltona

Okay thanks that sequence is what I was thinking in previous posts thanks for the clarification just out of interest whats the length of the bolt?

desertfox

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

(OP)
Hi Desertfox,

Sorry for slow reply, Christmas and all that got in the way.....

Total bolt length to underside of (bolt) head is 173mm.


On a similar note:

I don't think a torque plate is totally necessary when boring and honing these cast iron 4 cyl blocks as they are very rigid, but I like the machinist to use one. I have one which is circa 15mm thick (have to check to be precise) and have some short HT bolts to bolt it down with, is it possible to calculate what torque setting I should use for these to make them equal to the eventual much longer ones?
Maybe difficult as we don't know the strength of the original bolts.....

Thanks again.

Deltona.

 

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

Hi Deltona

Thanks for the info on the length I'll run some numbers and let you know for sure about why I think those threads failed.

As to the torque plate I wouldn't recommend using anything but the right length bolts, whilst its sems possible to achieve the correct preload, it could affect the stresses in the block.
I'll explain more later, let me look into it a bit further before I give it the complete thumbs down.

Happy new year

desertfox

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

Hi Deltona

I calculated the extra load generated on the bolts for the two quarter turns you give them during assembly and working back to a torque figure it comes to about 80Nm which is at capacity for the bolt and the cast iron threads would stand no chance and would definitely strip.
Now the reason they don't always strip is that I am assuming a worse case situation, which won't happen in practice, firstly I am assuming with the 90 degree turns on the bolt that all the strain is taken by the bolt, this means that I am not allowing for any compression of the gasket or the head and block materials which is unrealistic and any compression of the clamped components would reduce bolt load.
The only sensible conclusion I can come to is that the bolts are tightened to achieve about 90% of the yield stress,but because of the error in torquing bolts its possible that some bolts are loaded beyond yield, this additional load coupled with only 20mm thread engagement is to much for the cast iron and so every now and then this situation occurs.

I wouldn't use shorter bolts for clamping the torque plate  it might well strip your cast iron threads and it can affect the stresses in the block look at this site:-

http://www.goodson.com/technical_support/tech_library/cylinder_boring_tips.php

desertfox

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

(OP)
Hi Desertfox,

I've never had this happen before and neither has another specialist I spoke to, I think unless we got the actual bolts tested we will never know, the fault definately lies with either a previous mechanic or the bolts. I think they must have been tightened (or over tightened) too many times. Lesson learned: Don't risk it, buy new bolts. I only re-fitted as the customer said the head was to come off again for a gasflowed one to be fitted and the manual said that they could be re-used about 4 times.

In some ways the best way to pre-stress a block is to torque a scrap head on with bore holes already machined through it then bore the block through this.
However, I have been warned against this method by the machine shop because the further away the cutter is from where it is driven from the less accurate it becomes.....

Deltona.

 

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

Hi Deltona

Yes best way is to have new bolts as you said, it could be that if a previous mechanic over tightened the bolts, then the female threads may have been damaged at that point and unfortunately for you when you re-assembled they failed.
How did you get round the failed female thread? just out of interest.
I agree with your machine shop you need to keep the cutting tool as short as possible.

regards

desertfox  

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

(OP)
Hello Desertfox,

I used an off-the-shelf thread insert - or two anyhow, one on top of the other to get the correct length.
Someone brought in an 'Emergency job' a few weeks back of a similar kind (different circumstances and engine) and I bored it out oversize, made up an insert from an M14 bolt bored and tapped out and did it that way. I have a good quality lathe and a sturdy old pillar drill in my workshop so can perform basic tasks like this.
I work on a type of rare and sought after old car with many parts unobtainable so have to be a little resourceful from time to time.

Deltona.

RE: Head bolt block thread failure

Hi Deltona

Thanks for the info, I assume that you haven't had issues with temperature and the threaded inserts when the engines built up and running.

desertfox

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