The secret world of municipal water flow data
The secret world of municipal water flow data
(OP)
Regarding the following, what is your situation in the States (and other parts of the world for those interested in sharing)?
This all started because I have found it increasingly difficult to obtain water flow data from the municipalities and / or fire departments.
I decided to look into the whole affair, but what at first appeared to be a simple research project has turned into something more puzzling. Here is the gist of it: a municipality provides water for it's constituents. There seems to be a fair amount of concern and a dearth of information, programs and councils when it comes to water quality. But when I have gone in search of who is responsible for keeping water performance or flow information, I've been met with a veritable black hole. It's seems equally incumbent upon the municipalities to ensure their infrastructure and the customers they serve have adequate water supplies as well as healthy drinking water. I understand that there is possibly a liability issue, but if you have a proper ITM program in place there should be no qualms in disseminating test results.
Thoughts? Is this legislated in some places?
This all started because I have found it increasingly difficult to obtain water flow data from the municipalities and / or fire departments.
I decided to look into the whole affair, but what at first appeared to be a simple research project has turned into something more puzzling. Here is the gist of it: a municipality provides water for it's constituents. There seems to be a fair amount of concern and a dearth of information, programs and councils when it comes to water quality. But when I have gone in search of who is responsible for keeping water performance or flow information, I've been met with a veritable black hole. It's seems equally incumbent upon the municipalities to ensure their infrastructure and the customers they serve have adequate water supplies as well as healthy drinking water. I understand that there is possibly a liability issue, but if you have a proper ITM program in place there should be no qualms in disseminating test results.
Thoughts? Is this legislated in some places?





RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
Remember, the fire department are the ones wanting fire flows. As a sprinkler contractor I have performed flow tests for civil engineers, fire protection engineers and out of state sprinkler contractors.
For water quality, the EPA requires them to disseminate the data to all interested parties. This data should be available via the EPA's website. http://www.epa.gov/safewater/dwinfo/index.html
It has been rare in my experience to have a fire department send us data. My rule is to always be willing to perform the test yourself or to have it performed for you by another contractor or agent.
RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
I have no qualms whatsoever about flowing hydrants ourselves. I prefer it actually. We offer this as an ITM program for the mines up here. I'm just somewhat puzzled by the reticence I'm encountering from some of the municipalities, and from the lack of any sort of legislation or bylaw mandating any sort of requirements.
RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
If the fire department doesn't want me to do a flow test fine... give it to me in writing on fire department letterhead and I will somehow work that into the contract documents.
It's my job, my responsibility.
I can make a lot of mistakes. I can run into beams, miss a measurement by transposing numbers and I'll even run into ductwork. These are mistakes we all make and it's never that big deal unless you array your mistake.
Design an Extra Hazard I system to 70 static, 55 residual flowing 1,200 gpm only to find out you had 80 static, 40 residual flowing 900 gpm? Now you got a real problem.
Without exception every job I've ever lost sleep over has revolved around the adequacy of the public water supply. I am sure we can all share stories on this.
Next time you're out with a fire department check out the condition of their gauges. I've actually seen fire departments use the gauges we put on sprinkler system risers.
My gauges are high quality test gauges that are calibrated annually and I have the paperwork to prove it.
Note to Sprinkler Man: Without water you are nothing.
RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
Years ago we bid an ESFR job based on the fire department's flow data. The water curve was insufficient to provide for an ESFR system so pumps, tanks and associated products were included.
The owner shelved the project for three years for being too expensive and when we returned to it, we performed the flow test. I remember the FD's data was 1300 GPM. This is because the FD's equipment stopped at 1300. The real flow was about 2200 GPM. None of the special fire equipment was required to work the ESRF system after all and we won the job just for doing the flow test ourselves.
RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
New catch phrase
I am with WATER!!
D
RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
May be you should do your own test but contact both water and fire department for permission.
RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
D
RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
Hydrant flow test is no big deal. Preferably you need two hydants, a pitot tube, a calibration chart for type of hydrant nozzle, one person for each hydrant,reading of static pressure with no hydrant flowing, static pressure while the other hydrant is flowing, and flow pressure at the flowing hydrant, and plot results on hydraulic graph paper.
RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
No disrespect intended but please read the post and replies. Your response is very similar to the many "official" replies that I've received when I've gone looking for the answer to the question I am actually positing; it skirts the real question by giving me an answer to something else with the insinuation that I'm obviously a bit slow for my not being aware of it. (Which I'm pretty sure you did not intend).
A municipality is much like a business. They collect money (taxes) and provide services (garbage collection, street cleaning, etc.). One of the services / products they provide, and we pay extra for based upon our consumption, is water. As everyone here is aware, there are several qualities to water that need to be kept at minimum standards when being provided by a municipality for consumption by it's constituents. Water is not only provided for drinking, but to the point of this post, it's provided for fire sprinkler systems and hydrants. If you build a multi million dollar hi rise that is required by local codes to have a sprinkler system, said sprinkler system is hydraulically designed based on the water flows taken during the design - build phase of the building. In a downtown core there may very well be several billion dollars worth of infrastructure protected by sprinkler systems designed this way. My first question is, who is responsible for maintaining the adequacy of the water supplies? On the face of it, it's obvious that the municipality providing the water is responsible. My main question(s) as stated are then: why is it so difficult to obtain up to date data from the municipality, and why is there no legislation regarding this type of thing? I am as close to being a Libertarian as you can come with my desires to limit how the governments of the world interfere with us by legislating us to death. But considering some of the things that ARE on the books that are trivial to the extreme, I find this a rather stupendous oversight.
D
RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
There seems to be a culture of providing as little information as possible so as to limit the amount of liability they are 'personally' exposed to. In this new litigation crazy world you can see their point sometimes.
The water 'belongs' to the municipality. You can no more go up to a hydrant and flow the water for test purposes than you can hook up to it to irrigate your lawn.
A little off topic but, in your scenario above where there are private hydrants, how does the municipality monitor water usage?
Regards
D
RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
Some areas that were finished 10 years ago today have a significantly lower curve than that to which their suppression systems were designed to. Handing out data like that would be like giving a lawyer a juicy steak.
RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
http:/
My personal preference is to attach two play-pipes directly to the hydrant as shown here:
http://img
With a Coefficient of discharge of 0.97 I know my flow test is as accurate as I can get it. Unless it is light hazard I usually use two play-pipes taking a reading on each then combining the flow. By using two I can oftentimes get more out of two 1 3/4" play-pipes than a single 2 1/2" hydrant butt.
For years now I have been in the habit of taking still photos but for the past year I've been taking video of my flow tests not to nail anyone just to demonstrate I used due diligence and those were the results obtained at that given date and time at that given location.
I think I suffer from paranoia.
Without a single exception in over 33 years every single time I've been really deep in the hot water for a project it's had its geneses in my mistake of not exercising due deligence in obtaining a water supply. Usually I was lazy opting to take someones (fire department) word for it and on the worst project I ever had I didn't want to spend the four ours hooking up a a flow from the flange and spigot to obtain a flow test. This one we got out of by the skin of our teeth but it could have came close to taking the company out which I could never forgiven myself for. It could have happened but I just got lucky is all.
Last time this happened, decades ago, I was like Scarlette O'Hara in Gone With The Wind standing in front of wrecked Tara swearing to God she would never be hungry again. Only I was swearing I would never get lazy with flow tests again. It is my single biggest pet peeve.
I don't care how good you are without the water you are nothing.
RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
I'm working on an out of town project where there are no recent figures. I have harangued the town and have been met with everything from indifference to hostility to nothing at all. I happen to have a few connections there so I finally managed to get a town employee to go do the flow testing which was witnessed by a local mechanical contractor. I was given the figures verbally over the phone. When I asked for those figures on a town letterhead, they wouldn't do it. My engineer has designed a system and we have qualified it by stating our source of information was the town but that they have refused to sign off on it. I'm pretty sure this will get hung up during the design review. Actually I'm going to 'take the bull by the horns' as chicopee mentioned and ensure it gets hung up until the town provides proper water flow rates.
Regards
D
RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
RE: The secret world of municipal water flow data
Regards
D