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am I being shafted?

am I being shafted?

am I being shafted?

(OP)
this is probably not a new complaint but I have become aware of some information. My experience is approx 9 years after graduation. I am a chartered engineer (UK) which I got middle of last year. Some of that time, approx 2 and a half years was spent on site. The rest is in a design office. I currently work in design (civil/structural consultancy).

The info I have come across shows me I am paid £1500 more than the fresh wave of graduates coming into the company. I believe on a exchange rate of 1.6 at mo thats $2400 US dollars. Opinions? At the moment I'm thinking what am I doing here.   

RE: am I being shafted?

That's par for the course.  If you stay with employer #1, the newbies will catch up and eventually overtake you.  I'm surprised it's taken that long.

- Steve

RE: am I being shafted?

(OP)
well I've been here only 4 of those years. I'm not comparing my starting salary with them. I am professionally qualified, I run projects, attand start up meetings, deal with site issues, prepare fee proposals. What would a starter do by comparision?

RE: am I being shafted?

As Steve eluded, if you want to find out and realize (earn) your worth, look for another employment and go through some interviews. Staying at the same place does not work, and complaining about the raise is even more useless.

 

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: am I being shafted?

Three or four previous lives ago I lived and worked in the UK

The ICE publishes salary review papers. I know because I saw one reciently on line at the NCEplus magazine website. I would suggest you get hold of it and compare your salary with the levels shown on the paper.

 

RE: am I being shafted?

(OP)
ues they do but to be honest most people know them to be a joke. The salaries do not accuratly reflect the majority of members. For instance a CEng could be a humble designer or a director, there is no distintion. It is flawed in many ways, although I accept it to be difficult to collate all info to please everyone. I believe they also display it in such a way to make the pay and satisfaction look good to 'promote' the industry.  

RE: am I being shafted?

£1500/month or £1500/year?

RE: am I being shafted?

(OP)
per year! def per year!

RE: am I being shafted?

If this helps.  When I started my engineering career, probably a year or two before you I started on £15700 with a major UK consultancy (one of the top three or four).  I got my CEng in 2004, having been with the same company since I graduated.  After that my pay was £25000 plus a profit share of another £2000.  At which point the graduates were starting on around £22000/23000 I think.  So not too far different.  At that time the associate directors were on maybe £35000, with local directors on maybe £45000 (head office directors were on six figures).  These were usually folk in their fifties.  So I could see, in real terms, what my salary would increase to over the period of 20-25 years. At which point I changed industry to Oil and Gas.

RE: am I being shafted?

(OP)
well I know rough figures (range) of others in my office and its not as bad as your old place. Nevertheless I would imagine I bring more than an extra £1500 worth of value to the company than a graduate.  

RE: am I being shafted?

Yep - you're being shafted

RE: am I being shafted?

You are now part of the pay review structure.  Typically the rate at which they pay grads has increased quicker than the pay of the senior staff.  The salary band between graduate and director gets squeezed ever thinner.  Especially now with all the pay freezes in place.  I have to say, if you stay, it wont get any better.  You need to move to maximise the pay rise/effect of getting chartered.

RE: am I being shafted?

(OP)
yeah well I probably got my chartership at the worst time, right in a recession. Think I'll have to have a tentative look around. I really wouldn't want to leave as I really like working here and its convenient to home etc. But nothing a few grand won't make up for :)

RE: am I being shafted?

Judging by the distinct lack of job adverts in the back of the NCE I dont know if there is much out there at the moment.  UK civils has never been renowned for the voluminous salaries though.

You could try speaking with your line manager directly and making your case.  I have done that in the past and it has worked.  Do you know how your renumeration stacks up against similarly qualified colleagues?  

RE: am I being shafted?

(OP)
there is not much comparison really. one other probably does a similar role but he more experienced than me and has more varied experience. He is paid substantially more than me though (i only know ball park figures but around 15000 pound more I believe). Others are either doing a slightly different role (one paid substantially more) or are more junior. Or are my bosses. It appears even the most junior are only just less than me.  

RE: am I being shafted?

Sounds like you are underpaid.

RE: am I being shafted?

(OP)
sounds like it yes. Its amazing how I could quit go back to college and re apply as a graduate and be not significantly worse off. I wouldn't know how to approach my boss in a way that won't backfire. Maybe I should look around and then go back to him.    

RE: am I being shafted?

Keeping salaries secret only benefits an employer.  It means  they can pay everyone the minimum they are willing to work for, without worrying about people getting upset that colleagues get more.

I raised my salary concerns with my line manager at my annual performance review.  I told him I felt my pay was less than my colleagues and asked him to investigate on my behalf.  He did, and returned telling me their was an anomaly, which they fixed by increasing my pay accordingly.

RE: am I being shafted?

Look around, also maybe hint at if there is some other responsibility or task or something that you'd need to take on to warrant the raise in their mind.  While you may well be underpaid, you've accepted it for however long and unless they already realize they're underpaying you they may not jump to give you more money to do the same thing.  The extra responsibility need not be that large, just something nominal to justify the raise to accounting/management types.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: am I being shafted?

(OP)
by convenience we have been told reviews are not for discussing pay issues. We are also told that the review has no impact on pay rises but I have evidence that suggests it does. We have also been told that there will be no annual pay rises this year for anyone(TBC). Of course a couple of favourites have been promoted to get around that issue.   

RE: am I being shafted?

When we went through tough times in early 09 they dismissed the three biggest pay checks.  Problem was that one of those was a very valuable part of the company. His replacement was an associates degree with no work experience.  I can see some failings with the newbie but he's holding up well and with 20 or so years less experience the company is saving about $20-$30K at a guess per year.

drawn to design, designed to draw

RE: am I being shafted?

(OP)
my problem is if I bring this up and get rejected straight away I may be labelled as the unhappy one who might jump later anyway. If cuts need to be made I'll then be first to go. Think I need to dust of the CV over next couple of weeks and see whats about.  

RE: am I being shafted?

Get your CV tidied up, get it out there, and when you get a better offer accept it. And when your current employer counter-offers you more money to stay, politely tell them to stick it up their ass. Never stay for the promise of more money: you'll be lucky to get another raise within five years. You can always go back to a more senior position after a year or two if it is a nice place to work.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: am I being shafted?

It's called salary compression and yes, you're getting screwed.  Usually takes a job change to get equity.

RE: am I being shafted?

"And when your current employer counter-offers you more money to stay", stay if you think that it's to your advantage.

Apart from the pay you like working there.
So, you're better off concentrating on your reward rather than on punishing the company.

I was told that there would be no rises this year, but here I am with 20% more.
I found that there were jobs available out there and told my employer I was leaving, that's when they started getting serious about my work condtions.

If you don't tell your employer that you are unhappy they will assume that you're satisfied with your conditions.
It's not unusual for employers to pay as liitle as they think they can get away with, it doesn't mean that they're total b-st-rds.

RE: am I being shafted?

(OP)
I've got a bit more info now and turns out they get a 2000 pound welcome bonus. That means I will now earn less this year than a straight out of college graduate.
As I said it would be a shame to leave as I love the work place here but I'm not happy being taken advantage of.  

RE: am I being shafted?

Note that the real exchange rate for engineering salaries is more like 2.5$/1£ (e.g. for an internal transfer from a British office to a USA office).  So your £1500 is more like $3750.

- Steve

RE: am I being shafted?

So you have nine years experience and are chartered, and a brand spanking new graduate gets paid £500 more than you.  Dude, you need to leave.

RE: am I being shafted?

There is nothing to feel sorry about present job or employer if you are experienced and they are shafting you. You would love other job as well as long as you are good.

People loving or hating the jobs, has also a lot to do with their abilities to perform them. You love your job means you are good at what you do, so  do not hesitate to make a move.

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: am I being shafted?

(OP)
I suppose one issue is my self confidence to move somewhere else. Previously I've been at graduate level positions so I go there and think well they expect me to not know everything. Now however that won't be the case. I'm sure i'd be fine, but its the unknown i suppose.  

RE: am I being shafted?

(OP)
a bit more advice if you don't mind everyone (and thanks for posting so far). How do I handle this, to my mind I have two options;

1) Look around and apply. If I get a job offer then leave. Should the company counter offer then I would probably at that stage still leave not to leave any bad feeling with the new prospective employer. So once I start applying I'm effectively gone sooner or later.

2) Speak to my boss, outline why I believe I am worth more than a starting graduate (laughable I know). Not sure whether I should bring up the starters salary as I got the info by 'covert' means. This may anger them. The main downside of this is that they may decide to say thats the way it is and decide that to let me go sometime soon as they expect me not to stay around. Especially if we are not flat out busy. As I have a family with another child on the way this is a risk for me.

Any advice?  

RE: am I being shafted?

Go to the NCE website and look at some of the articles with multiple pages of comments. Mainly it's engineers (rightly) bemoaning the state of the profession, and there seems to be a crisis in the UK civils profession (again), with not enough people going for Chartership, not seeing the need. (My own company tries hard at every performance review to get people to become Chartered/Incorporated).

The fact you ARE Chartered and your company apparently values you so little is alarming. The only downside to leaving your job right now, as you will know, is the current state of the industry and evidently low morale.

RE: am I being shafted?

(OP)
thats why I'm worried about bringing it up without a 'fall back'. Of course once I have that fall back I'm already gone.
I too have read the articles and comments (nce.co.uk), also the frankly patronising aricle by antony oliver. If it wasn't for yhe family I think I'd be retraining already.

RE: am I being shafted?

Advice: Push on rock, bracing against hard place. You should be able to find both nearby.

If it is a place you really want to stay at, then talk to the boss, otherwise start looking.

RE: am I being shafted?

(OP)
I think I'll bring it up at review, even though we are asked not to and see what happens. In the meantime I'll update CV and get it to some agencies to see what it generates. At least I will have some idea on options then. Cheers guys, I don't know why companies behave like this.

RE: am I being shafted?

Companies behave like this be cause we, as a profession, allow them to get away with it.

Most of us will at some time have stayed in a job where we were being under-rewarded compared to our peers just because we enjoyed the job. It's nothing to be ashamed of - think how many people have to do a job they hate, and then be grateful for doing something you love - but it is something you need to be aware of, especially once you have been in a place for a little while. It's easy to get complacent.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: am I being shafted?

Herewegothen:

If I were you, I will only consider 1).  I would not consider accepting counter offer.. that would only be a proof that they have taken advantage of you so far and no guarantee they would not do again.

But you know your situation and relationships the best, so its your decision in the end. I would say discuss this with your family member.

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: am I being shafted?

you're being screwed.

I agree don't take the counter offer because the factors that made you quit will return in a few months.

RE: am I being shafted?

Capitalism at its best.

You have to remember you are working for a company. It is the job of the managers to make as much money for the stock holders.  This loosely translates into screwing you out of as much money as they can.

However, as the employee, it is your job to try and get as much money out of the company as possible. Look around, some people are better at this than others.

Personally, I would never take a counter offer from my existing company.  As Bridgebuster states, in a few months, the factors that made you look for a new position will return.
 

RE: am I being shafted?

Making the best return on investment does not necessarily result from screwing staff. Sometimes paying a premium for a highly productive employee shows a higher return.

However, I believe the OPs boss does not subscribe to that point, or else he thinks the OP does not qualify as highly productive.

He probably does subscribe to that point of viwe when negotiating his own salary.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: am I being shafted?

(OP)
well on the counter offer statement the main reason I would leave is money. Type of future projects will play a part obviously. But if the money is sorted then I lose my reason to leave. Anyway its a point I'm yet to come to. Going by past leavers a counter offer was never made then so I doubt its a way in which they choose to operate. Whos knows how this will play out. I will post updates when applicable and maybe it can help others in the future. This is likely to go on into next year though.  

RE: am I being shafted?

Just be careful of how you play this, I'm in a far worse position than you, I work for a large company, have a very demanding, high profile position which I really enjoy, but only earn £33,500 due to internal promotion ( had I come in from external recruiting, I would have been on £45-50k also no pay rise at all for 2 years now due to recession) compared to one of my collegues in the same department who does next to F.A. and is paid £70k. This is because no one talks about salaries and the company frown upon anyone who mentions it. We are of course in the middle of a giant recession, so right now, I'm really pleased to have survived 5 rounds of redundancies with another one announced tomorrow and still have a decent job. The forecast for our industry is at best bleak for 2010 too, so I for one, will not be honking to HR for a payrise or playing my present employer off against another job until things pick up. It's better the devil you know who pays a bit less, than one you don't know at all.

Best regards

Simon NX4.0.4.2 MP10 - TCEng 9.1.3.6.c - (NX6.0.3.6 MP2 native)

www.jcb.com

Life shouldn't be measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the number of times when it's taken away...

RE: am I being shafted?

Howdy all,

I think one of the possibilites is that some companies will give a small consistent raise every year, but other companies will give no raises unless they are requested.  The idea is that if the employee doesn't ask for a pay raise then we are paying him enough.  I don't think it's an effective policy, but that is the philosophy in some companies.  It may be prudent to not push the topic when buisness is down, but otherwise I would never be afraid to bring up the topic of raises.  If a company says that the review period is not the time to bring up raises, ask them when is the appropriate time?  I would suggest that a couple of weeks before the review would be a good time in that instance.  I am used to raises being dependent on and given at the same time as (or shortly after) an annual review, so that is the right time to bring up raises.  

Just my two cents,

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

RE: am I being shafted?

Hi there,

New member here.

Definitely sounds like you are being shafted, dude. There shouldn't be this little of a gap b/n your salary and that of a grad, especially considering your CEng.

One thing I would like to add which I think no one is mentioning, is - at least to my mind -  that the way it works from the business perspective in that companies tend to (or at least should) reward those individuals who have more responsibility. I therefore think that you should use this fact to your advantage when talking to your employer negotiating a pay increase.

All the best and please let us know how you fair out.

Greeting for the New Year to everyone!

RE: am I being shafted?

herewegothen,

You are definitely getting the shaft axially and torsionally loaded.  I am afraid the clock has struck 12 on this issue.  Do you expect them to hand out raises during review time?  Maybe you can ask for more perks.

Make sure you have that back-up plan (Job offer somewhere else) first before talking to someone.

RE: am I being shafted?

LOL, this guy said the shaft is being torsionally and axially loaded.

i hate engineers sometimes, lol.   

RE: am I being shafted?

(OP)
slight update, I have forwarded my CV to a couple of places, not sure how much interest it will generate as there is proably an abundance of engineers in my area at present looking for work. I have chosen not to discuss this issue with my boss in the present climate as I believe this to be to risky, if I was single I would but not with a family. I'll continue to update.

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