×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?
5

Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

(OP)
The reason I ask is that I recently testified as an expert in court.  I had been talking with the attorney outside of the courtroom just prior to my testimony about what I had been doing since being laid off and going into private consulting.  I mentioned that I did a photo shoot as one of the model/actors for a drug for people with Type 2 diabetes being launched in January or February next year.  I personally am not diabetic.  I just happened to have the look they wanted (middle aged, mildly overweight and ethnically indeterminate).  I told him about getting used to walking on set and having everyone yell, "talent walking" and then jokingly suggested he do the same as I approach the witness stand.

After I was on the stand, one of the first requests the attorney made was to have me describe what I had been doing since being laid off.  I said some consulting  work and some interior painting and not much else.  I felt that if I had said modeling or acting, I would have diminished my credibility, rightly or wrongly.  But I had no hesitation to admit to performing labor.  After all, part of my testimony involved criticizing a painting estimate.

I was just wondering how anyone else would react to hearing a construction defect/estimator mentioning doing modeling and acting.  As i look at my own reaction, I can't help but think I'm being unfairly judgmental. The hourly rate for the modeling is very close to the standard consulting rate I get.  As a painter, best I've done is $20/hour cash.

I don't think I would have admitted to doing any bartending or product promos either, but at least I hadn't done any of those gigs.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

casseopeia:

You are who you are, and have done what you have done.  Everything has value, and I wouldn't be ashamed of a darn thing.

I would be more worried about your credibility if you presented like someone who was trying to cover up what they were doing by saying nebulous stuff that they thought someone might want to hear in order to strengthen their case.

In my case, for three months of the year, I set my engineering career aside, act like a clown, and play with my dogs in front of thousands of people.  Some people don't see that as especially helpful towards my credibility as an engineer, since in their view, a true "expert" would be studying journals, writing papers, and volunteering for technical committees in their spare time.

Oh well.  I do what I do.

Personally, I view modeling and acting as strengths and indications of diversity.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

I would have thought the fact that you knowingly lied while in a court of law as an expert witness presumably whilst under oath would have been more damaging than any job you might have done.

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

My first reaction as a juror would probably be to taint your testimony as being from someone who might be fake, whimsical, below average intelligences, someone who will do anything for money, and more importantly someone isn't persuing engineering.

Kind of reminds me of everybody complaining about that recent sexist newsweek cover of palin.  When that picture was placed on a sports magazine earlier it said, "here's a political figure who is one of the people and likes sports".  When the same picture is put on the cover of a serious political magazine it becomes a "Can you believe this modeling bimbo might be president".  

In your case if you told me that you were modeling while we were having lunch, playing tennis, or even say painting I would think now here is a guy who has ambition, isn't afraid to try new things, and outgoing.  Change the setting to the courtroom and you get the reaction I stated I would have above.  Modeling simply contrast too much with law and engineering.

Certain Stereotypes are so ingrained in our heads that WE ALL will often judge the book by its cover.  If you were asked point blank you would have to put a positive spin on it using words like "great opportunity", "A good cause", "wanted to try something new", "pretty cool huh", etc...

John Southard, M.S., P.E.
http://www.pdhlibrary.com

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

I would like to say no, side jobs don't dimish your credibility, but the truth is I would have tripped on that questions as well.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that they like it

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

I would have thought what you did aside from the job that qualified as expert was irrelevant and they had no business asking, however if my attorney let it be asked, I would not have lied while under oath. I may have asked if I was required to list all jobs no matter how irrelevant.

 

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

Cass,
you forgot the one thing you shouldn't have forgotten (easy to spot with hindsight): Lawyers, attorneys and their ilk are dangerous detestable loathsome critters.
That's why there are so many lawyer jokes.

In normal business relations there is always the chat gap when you talk about other things, ball games, family, kids music etc. but when in an adversarial situation with lawyers around it is as well to remember you are in a snake pit.

But that is your only fault.

I do think the attorney in question should have been choked off.
In court.
He might seek to challenge your credibility as an expert witness on voire dire by testing your professional qualifications and skill. His questioning ought to be confined to that.
But to move into your private life is, I suspect, quite irrelevant and improper and the judge or the opposing attorney should have intervened. Maybe they allow too much latitude in questioning in these cases.

What you do outside of your work is irrelevant.
That you had been laid off is also irrelevant.
It appears to be your impression that he was trying to discredit your testimony by inference, by trying to get people to think you had been laid of for some reason that reflected on your skills as an expert witness, and worse and that you are some kind of less respectable person for modeling or belly dancing.
Quite improper.
I wonder, does he chat with all expert witnesses this way? Does he try to weaken their testimony by finding out their golf handicaps etc. if they are having affairs?
How is any of it relevant to your qualifications as an expert witness?

But, I am assuming this is the opposition attorney and you didn't say that. Was it?
It would be even more strange if it were the attorney for the side retaining you.

It may be you could discuss this with another attorney and check out just how far they can go and maybe, if there is an appropriate journal (is there one for expert witnesses?), write it up. Get it talked about, share the experience.

Other than that, I don't know what to suggest.

I guess that in future you may decide to be more circumspect during casual conversation with anyone related to these cases, not because you have any problems with what you do but because some of these people you are dealing with are legally qualified snakes; they are not real people, they are not engineers.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

(OP)
This was the defense attorney, the side for which I was testifying.  I think he was trying to diffuse any attempt by the other side to imply that I was terminated for cause by showing that I had an open consulting agreement with my former employer. So I just covered that aspect. I'm sure the attorney didn't want to get into any long discussions about non related work  and the opposing attorney didn't challenge my answer.

It made me think, though.  At the shoot some of the other model/actors suggested sending a head shot and bio to other Bay area talent agencies and I'm considering doing just that. The pay is good and the work currently more abundant than CD litigation. The work I just completed will be used for the website and printed brochures and ads.  The more lucrative work is for commercials though.  Far better than the technical consulting work.  I'd like to think I could do both

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

I guess this is one of the defense attorneys OJ rejected.
I'd have thought it was a grave danger of being an own goal and surely he should have explained what he was going to do and why.
It just goes to show that a legal snake will bite anyone within reach.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

I think the attorney did a poor job of preparing you.

He is presenting you as an expert, and his job is to ask questions with answers that demonstrate your expertise in the relevant area.

You should of known all of the questions that he was going to ask, AND your answers BEFORE you got on the stand.

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

(OP)


In the attorney's defense, he is from LA and may not have thought twice about modeling or acting coming off as vacuous, which was my gut reaction.  After that little trip, he settled down into the items that had been discussed as the focus of the testimony.

I was concerned about what the jury would think, but I don't know if my concern has any basis.  If I end up doing more high profile modeling, does that make me less believable as a construction defect expert?  I think southard2 makes a good suggestion, had I been prepared it would have been a good opportunity to show that I was concerned about the health of others and offered my image and time to help promote a drug that helps in the treatment of Type 2 diabetes.  What if had been a new drug to treat genital herpes?  Somehow I don't think a "hey, but I'M clean would have sufficed."

 

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

"If I end up doing more high profile modeling, does that make me less believable as a construction defect expert?"

No but lying whilst under oath does.
 

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

Several thoughts based on being an expert witness:

The less said the better, you could have said "...and some odd jobs."  The less said about anything other than engineering is probably the best approach.

Folks may think less of you (and your expertise), if you can't always stay in your profession.  Certainly a jury may think that.  The attorney should not have asked such an open ended question.

Attorneys are looking to win, any information you give out could lead them down the wrong trail for you or the side you are on.

You have to be honest, even if it hurts but you do not have to answer questions in such a way as to give the opposing attorney an opportunity to discredit you.

The attorneys I've worked with will not ask a question unless they they know the answer.  They also will not ask open-ended questions.

Good luck.

 

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

I have seen some top models that appear to be very well constructed.

Seriously, your own team should not have put you in a position where you even wondered if he expected you to lie.

I know it is only a TV show, but a quote from Rumpole of the Bailey always struck me as very wise.

He said, never ask a question in court unless you already know the answer.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

Pretty much any side job can diminish one's credibility.  Musician, teacher, student, programmer, parent have all somehow been used against me.

Simply having one's attention not 100% focused another's priorities 24-7 on-duty and off can be enough to cause trouble.

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

(OP)
In retrospect I'm sure there was a better way to ask the question like "could you describe your rationship with your former employer" and I could have described my open consulting contract with them. And he could have said, "I understand you have also been doing some construction work" and I could have responded that I did some wall patching and painting for rent concessions to manage my costs"

live and learn. I'll be better prepared next time.  And don't worry Pat. I don't think I'm taking any work away from Heidi Klum

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

Cass...as you well know, in our business, credibility is all we have when facing a jury.  You did exactly right.

You have many talents.  One talent is not necessarily complementary to another...just a talent.  Your intuition is good as well...yes, it would have reduced your credibility in that situation, but could be an attribute in others.  Your diversity allows you to be much more than the one-dimensional technocrat...but that's for the evaluation stage and the inflicted persona when testifying...not to be divulged, but to be demonstrated.  Ya done good, girl.

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

In court, when there's no relevance, don't bring it up.  You did the right thing, withholding is not the same as lying.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

And let's not forget that the inimitable Hedy Lamarr was a co-inventor of a frequency hopping secure communications system: http://www.google.com/patents?vid=2292387

However, I do agree with the notion that anything not related to your expertise should be downplayed, unless there's an upside to it that shows your credibility, etc.

Anything else, I would categorize as a "hobby" and deem that not reportable, just like you wouldn't bring up your ability to make fly fishing lures, or being a gourmet cook.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

The oath says the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. To deliberately withhold information is perjury.

If you feel it is not relevant you should ask the judge for clarification or state in your answer that you are only including information that is relevant to the case.

In my experience, at least in Aus, the judge will give you guidance if you ask and will ask the lawyer what they require or even suggest to them what they should have asked

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

"truth" is rarely an exact definition, unless it's something related to a "hard" science.  What she's been "doing" as posed in the OP, is an ambiguous question.  You obviously would not answer with, "I slept, I pooped every day, I scratched my butt when I got up, etc."  

I doubt very much that any judge would allow you to detail everything you've been "doing" for 4 months, or whatever, with millisecond precision, even if you assume that "sleeping" need not have that level of detail.  Would you be "hiding" the "truth?"  Yes, but would anyone even remotely think that you were not telling the "truth" if you left off how many times you had sex, or cooked your own meals, or had BMs, during the period in question?

There is an implied context to "doing," which is that if it's not job-related, it's not that relevant.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

Ir

If it where me, I still would have asked for clarification or qualified my answer.

A politically loaded question and an evasive answer got Bill Clinton into a lot of bother.

As I recall, he objected re relevance but was in my opinion wrongly directed to answer, and was then facing accusations of perjury.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

Never tell anyone what discounts you're stature. YOU are the only one that will stick up for yourself, never forget that. After all the law is just a corrupt estate at the core. I trust to some extent in it's ability to keep laymen from complete anarchy, however, it fails utterly with all other respects.   

peace
Fe

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

Clinton knew precisely what they were asking about.  He just didn't know that they actually had the goods on him.  It's hardly a comparable situation.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

"The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" is a bit of window dressing, a legal fiction.
The rules of evidence determine what is and what is not admissible and that then means we can only ever get a selected portion of the truth admissible.
The court procedures are then such that the question and answer routine between counsel ad witnesses means that the witness is required to respond only to the questions, and they are not ever given an opportunity to tell all the admissible evidence they know, let alone the whole truth.
Nice idea though.

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

Cass,
As you stated, you would like to pursue both career courses.  Keep in mind that the modeling/commercial side brings with it an element of fiction.  In the expert testimony realm, you cannot let the fiction aura permeate your credibility.  At some point, as your modeling/commercials become more visible and you are recognizable, you can kiss your expert testimony credibility goodbye.

Ron

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

(OP)
Ron,  

This is exactly why I asked the question.  It was my gut reaction in the moment that gave me a clue that I really need to evaluate doing additional modeling. The job I just completed is at least close to reality.  Due to family history and a propensity to gain weight easily, I need to monitor myself for diabetes. I was also the only person at the photo shoot who knew how to use and read a glucose meter from using one on my mother.  I told the actor using one for the photo that he was holding it upside down. The next available gig may be for a product that would be more of a problem like Valtrex for genital herpes or that new medication for bipolar disorder that I can't remember the name of because I don't even know any bipolar people.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

Funny thing is that if you scrubbed toilets to meet rent while unemployed, no one would hold it against you.  For some reason, posing in front of a camera isn't as "noble".

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

I don't think it much matters what the sideline is.  The issue is that an "expert" is expected, by the public at large, to be hunched over a desk or labbench on a full-time basis.  

There is a somewhat valid perception that if you are not employed full-time at your job, how can you be an "expert?"  The only exception to that concept is if you are "retired" and the audience can feel your decades of experience wash over them as you testify.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

This is starting to remind me of the episode of Friends where Joey poses for a commercial and it ends up being a poster ad for a genital herpes campaign.  He's trying to hit on a girl waiting in line at the subway and she sees the ad and takes off.  Sorry for those that never watched Friends (1990's sitcom)

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

I don't see how modeling could hurt your credibility. You were laid off, or had some spare time. Times are tough and picking up some interesting work on the side is fun.

I've had more problems having worked for an outfit that was fined $500 million by the DoJ for ethical violations. Technically it wasn't a fine, but a "voluntary settlement with no admission of guilt". But nobody lays out that sort of cash if they are innocent. And although the problem was with a different division than the one I worked in, the public doesn't know the difference.

Unless your outside activities are attached to something ethically questionable, don't worry  about it. Some of the smartest people I know get involved in some pretty wacky activities with no relationship to their career just for fun.

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

Leaving aside the on-the-stand issues, this is along the same lines as your belly-dancing.  You're out doing something in public that some people have misapprehensions about.  It has the potential to be more out in public than the belly dancing, depending on the distribution of the advertising.  But it's basically the same question.

If you don't want to be thought of as The Face Of Herpes, for whatever reason, whether it's personal or professional, don't take the gig.  For acting in general, don't worry about it.  If you starred in the community theatre annual summer musical, no one would hold it against you.  If you think the word "model" sounds too flitty, then come up with something else, like "appearing in print advertising".

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

You people using the terms liar and perjury are getting a bit off the mark.  She answered the question truthfully, and completely. The details are in: "and not much else."

Obviously, if the attorney wanted further detail of the not much else, he could have asked.  There was no cover up about what was done, just no detail.

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

I tend to call it as I see it.

I think the view here is quite clear if we make the judgement without the undue influence of feminine wiles and unchecked testosterone.

If this were the pub, flirtatious games are in order, but this is an ethics forum for crying out loud.  

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

Man...  I'm glad I stayed out of this one...  noevil

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

The thing here is we are talking about an expert witness.

You do not get an expert witness called in for Johnny stealing a bag of sweets. An expert witness is called in to clarify or highlight points that would not be obvious to a layman and the consequences of their evidence can be far reaching.

At least in my opinion to be selective with the truth for your own personal agenda whilst in this position is just plain wrong and very unprofessional.
 

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

The only mistake I see is talking to the (a) lawyer.
Without that conversation, s/he would not even have any idea you were laid off to begin with and the question would probably not even be asked.    

If a general question such as, "what have you been doing, since ... " did come up at any time, your answer should have been, "None of your business. That's irrelevant to this case.", then let the judge decide and answer accordingly.

If the lawyers ask a specific question, such as "have you been modeling, or drinking" ... etc., stop and allow some time for a lawyer to open an objection, as being irrelevant to the case, which supposedly would be sustained.  If nobody opens an objection, revert to the previous "NOYB.." response and let the judge decide.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

TDAA has said all that needs to be said.  I see no issue of lying or perjury here.  If the lawyers wanted additional information, they could have asked for it.

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

2
The "not much else" modeling job was significant enough to mention to the attorney and to bring up in an ethics forum, yet was seemingly carefully omitted from testimony. I am not sure there is no issue here. Also calling it like I see it.

And more conversation with the attorney was needed, not less; so that Qs and As could be adjusted to leave out work not significant to the case.  

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

Just tell the cross-examining attorney that if he can be both dumb and ugly, there's no reason why you can't be both smart and pretty.

RE: Are there side jobs that diminish your credibility?

I don't see how modeling would diminish your credibility, or any other form of honest, legal work. Doing nothing would, in my opinion, diminish credibility.

Only mistake I see is that if a lawyer asks you what you were doing since a certain date, only answer the readily demonstrable: I have been breathing, eating and defecating. Most lawyers would understand the defecating part, but may be confused that a different orifice was involved. If they want to pull teeth to get to every detail let them pull teeth.

Volunteering information is not mandatory, and generally not recommended. If you soold plasma for $15, would it be wrong not to mention that-I don't think so. For those who appreciate squirrels, just start everything with "to the best of my recollection."
 

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources