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Boss did not support our position
3

Boss did not support our position

Boss did not support our position

(OP)
Hey all,

Looking for some advice from senior engineers.  I recently had an issue where the contractor had interpreted our specifications in such a way as to omit some portion of the work.

After discussing in detail with my Boss, we agreed that the contractor's interpretation was incorrect and that I would draft a letter referencing the correct sections of the specification which indicated for the work in question to be done.

I wrote the letter and sent it out.  The next morning I had a meeting so while I was out, the contractor emailed another set of questions to me and copied my Boss.

Without discussions involving either myself (the project engineer) or the client, she responded with the OPPOSITE position of that which I had indicated in my letter and which she and I had discussed the day before.

I'm very disappointed that my Boss choose not to support me in our postion to the contractor.  When I presented her my concerns and requested that she "clarify the communication chain" to avoid this confusion in the future, she proceeded to blast me for my lack of respect of her position, her authority, and her knowledge.

At this point I'm confused and little unsure how to proceed.  She's overly complicating a simple issue of "Why didn't you support our position to the contractor?"  to beoome an issue of me questioning her authority - which I never have.  

In fact, my entire point of seeking her council prior to responding to the contractor was out of respect for her authority and experience.

How can I explain to her that I need her to support me in order for me to do my job effectively?  How can I further explain that my seeking her council is not a means of questioning her authority?

I don't want to involve any higher-ups as I don't want to come across as complaining - but I can't continue to put myself out there if she won't support me either.

Advice and direction would be most appreciated!

RE: Boss did not support our position

2
Rule 1:  The boss is in charge.  Do it her way.
When that is not appropriate, go to Rule 2.
Rule 2:  See Rule 1.


I.e., you have to assume that The Boss knows stuff that you don't know, stuff that might cause you to select a different course of action if you knew it, but for commercial or other reasons, the boss can't tell you.

... until it becomes fluorescently obvious that the boss doesn't know more than you do, in which case it's time to get another boss.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Boss did not support our position

(OP)
LOL.  Ok, that's funny stuff!

Jokes, I know, but still some truth there.  Maybe I'm asking too much, but I never expected to be thrown to the wolves, so to speak.

I reviewed the questions in detail and none of them warranted a complete about-face when it came to holding the contractor to our specifications.

So, unless the 'hidden managerial knoweldge' is outside the immediate sphere of our specifications and the contractor's interpretation, then I can't see why we would want to change positions.

I just can't get around the feeling that I was royally set up.

RE: Boss did not support our position

If you are the engineer of record, ask for her to take that role over from you due to your concerns. If she does not, and there is a substancial safety risk, report the situation and expect to be out of work soon. If there is no safety concern, then this is just a matter of opinion and your boss basicly changed her mind. Ask her again for her reasoning stating that you need to have suficient guidance to do your job properly.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: Boss did not support our position

(OP)
PeterStock, there is no safety concern and my P.E. stamp is not on the plans.  However, I am the main point of contact and have overseen the day-to-day concerning this project from the beginning.

The other concern is that the Client originally wanted to back down from the confrontation.  Considering there is a large change order in the works, my suggestion was to forgo this fight in favor of focusing our energies (and remaining budget) on the change order fiasco.

Instead, my Boss went against the client and against my intial suggestions and instructed me to proceed accordingly.  In other words, I swallowed my pride, bit my tongue, ignored my experience, and proceeded to respond how she and I had agreed.  

Then the overnight about-face.

I just don't get it.  There's no logic to it.

RE: Boss did not support our position

Sounds like your boss is:

A) Stupid
B) A bitch
C) Senile
D) Some combination of A, B and C

Just to further muddy the waters, since you are writing letters to the contractor, is there a sentence in the contract somewhere to the effect of "Communication other than official project correspondence shall have no force"?

RE: Boss did not support our position

Sounds like you got hung out to dry, I had this happen to me once on a safety issue, I now work somewhere else. Personally, i would be pissed off and would try to raise this again with the boss at a later date explaining the problem. because if it happens again on another issue i'm sure it will be bigger problem, may even harm your career. sit her down and explain the trust issue, if she get on her horse about all the other sh*t, shot the horse down with a straight comment like, "this isn't about respect this is about presenting a united front".  

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that they like it

RE: Boss did not support our position

It happens, people change their minds. Don't feel too upset about that, put it down to experience.

However, her response to your questioning is out of order. She should be able to explain her decision logically and without getting abusive. Hopefully it's a one off.

RE: Boss did not support our position

or E) was misinformed by the OP
or F) had a rethink or found some other info out.

If this is the first time you have done this sort of thing, it might have been better to draft a reply and let your boss send it out. Not much help, unless you have a time machine.

I suggest you just go to her and ask what she wants to do from here on. If you can live with it, do it. If you can't, resign.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Boss did not support our position

This sounds like a case of CYA.

Regrettably, some might be too big to cover completely...

You might be well-advised to not mention this in conversation with her...

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Boss did not support our position

Yeah, F) is a possibility.  Except when questioned by the OP the reply should have been "I got some new information since yesterday that caused me to change our position."

RE: Boss did not support our position

I would say that overnight, she was given direction by the client.  And she doesn't want to say she was wrong, and therefore she took offense when you asked her about it.

The solution is to smile, nod, and carry on.

RE: Boss did not support our position

"her" name is not Ben Dover, is it?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Boss did not support our position

In my experience when a boss does a 180 on you like that then gets short and defensive, it is for the following reasons.

1) They found information contradictory to what you supplied and they felt set up so reversed.

2) They have commercial or political information or reasons you don't have, like maybe the contractor is some ones son or whatever or there will be extra charges to fix the problem later, but not initially.

3) You boss still agrees with you but was over ruled at a higher level and cannot explain, so just bulldozes you to cover her own aggravation at being over ruled.

If policy on such matters is outside the scope of your job, and what was done is not unethical, illegal or dangerous in a way that might reflect poorly on you, suck it in and respect their right to make policy decisions without your council nor approval.



 

Regards
Pat
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RE: Boss did not support our position

Your boss is an ass for not explaining something which you clearly deserve an explanation for.  She's also clearly insecure about her position if she gets defensive and starts the "are you questioning my authoritay?!" stuff on you.

As to the soundness of the decision itself, unless you get the straight goods from her you'll never really know.  It is entirely possible that she knows something you don't.

Or she could just be an idiot.  That's also possible.

 

RE: Boss did not support our position

Remember your original position - maybe your boss just came to the realization that you were right in the first place?

Your gut told you to do one thing, she convinced you to do another, you went along (against your better judgement), she changed her mind, and now you're upset.

I would just smile, nod, and congratulate her for a good decision.
 

RE: Boss did not support our position

(OP)
Thanks for all the support, folks.  

TenPenny - I completely agree except for the fact that she contradicted me to the contractor and to our client.  I feel I've lost a little credibility with both.

I requested a meeting for Monday, after we return from the holidays, to discuss a few things.

My intent is to stick to facts and project communication issues only - since the issues of "respect, authority, and knowledge" were never brought up until now, I'll assume they were simply a reactive type of response brought about by emotion.  I just had my performance evaluation in October, and NONE of these issues came up then.

Thanks and I'll let ya'll know how it turns out.

RE: Boss did not support our position

Ummmm

Respect is a two way thing.

You should have your disagreements in private then present a united front to the customer.

The only deviation from that can be if you really disagree with the course of action you were instructed to take, you can present it as I have been instructed by management to blah blah blah.

If you feel you have been asked to do something illegal or totally abhorrent, you can refuse, but be prepared to resign or be fired if you take that stand.  

Regards
Pat
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RE: Boss did not support our position

I would be willing to put money on Pat's reply.  Some other agenda caused her to change her mind.  Chances are it was either financial or an upper-management decision.

RE: Boss did not support our position

It is often a problem on this side of the pond too.

So much so that our CDM (construction health and safety) rules state that if any other party changes the design(including the client) then they become the designer.

My attitude is that if it is anything that is not safety critical then it is up to management but if it is safety critical then you have a duty of care to ensure it is done.

RE: Boss did not support our position

I've had variations on this happen with several of my bosses (or other more senior colleagues) several times.  In some cases it was because they found out other information, but then they would normally share that info with me.

Once it happens I move into 'management paralysis' mode for a while.  I draft my comunications as Greg says then give them to the relevant party for review before sending them out.  I find this usually delays projects fairly quickly, since the more senior folks usually have better stuff to do than proof read my missives.

Once you're able to point out a few times that the reason project XYZ is behind schedule is because you're waiting on the senior colleague/boss they'll usually (though not necessarily explicitly) give you the OK to go back to answering directly.

I've had stuff delayed months by this kind of thing, some to the point it gets forgotten about and never finished.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Boss did not support our position

Can it be a case of "good cop, bad cop" without you knowing that you would be the bad cop until you found out in the worst way?
Or maybe she didn't had her stress pills that day:))

RE: Boss did not support our position

(OP)
Update:  I came in Monday and did a little of what Kenat suggested - "management paralysis".  Not only that, I remained professional and courteous but cool (i.e. no pleasant chit-chat).

She was visibly unhappy and appeared to be worried most of the day.  Perhaps worried at what follow-up action I might take?

I think her intent was to do the "good cop bad cop" routine but she never filled me in on the secret.  I guess she thought it'd either work out for the best (dunno how) or I'd not figure it out.  Either way, the methodology is ineffective at best (insulting at worst).

Meanwhile, we had a conference call yesterday with the contractor and the client.  The contractor was amicable until the end, when he decided to rip into my boss.  Apparently one of emails to him was rude and dismissive for no reason (I saw the email and agreed with him, quietly to myself of course).  I felt for her and there were a few instances where I could have come to her aid, but I choose to "respect her authority" and not say a word.

Thanks again to everyone's support and excellent advice.

RE: Boss did not support our position

Sounds like someone is on the bus and someone is going under the bus; I think you have the right approach, as I have been in the same situation many times. I also try to remember that when an elephant is being killed, you don't want to be caught in the grass around it.

I'd be willing to bet it won't be the last time. Live with it or get an MBA from Neal & Bob School of Management.
 

RE: Boss did not support our position

(OP)
I am currently working towards my Master's in Engineering Management.  I am also half-way through the Project Manager's in-house certification (which is approved by the PMI also) and expect to have that complete next year.

Once these goals are attained, I plan to put in for my Boss' position.

Wish me luck!

;o)>

RE: Boss did not support our position

Best of luck. I've been working pretty hard to stay out of management and generally been successful. Might be less money, but it means a lot to not have to say "Yum" every time something unsavory is placed on the plate.

RE: Boss did not support our position

Is that while she is still in her position.

Do you think maybe she already suspects that.

If so, that throws a very different light on what has been said so far in this thread.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Boss did not support our position

(OP)
Sorry, I should have clarified.

The office VP is slated to retire in the next 3 to 5 years.

My Boss and I have already discussed that, when the office VP retires, she intends to put in for his position and I would put in for her position.

The only problem with this scenario would be if she doesn't get the office VP position.  But I put in (and am considered) for hers.

Would make an uncomfortable work environment.

RE: Boss did not support our position

If she doesn't get the VP position, hers wouldn't be available to be put in for, would it?

Hg

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RE: Boss did not support our position

Poor managerial decisions, coming under fire from the client... sounds like she's making a vacancy for you without even having to consider that VP spot...

RE: Boss did not support our position

Clearly the only answer is for you to apply for the VP position.
 

corus

RE: Boss did not support our position

s0eebuch,

I read the OP and honestly, I think you just got screwed.  It happens.

I'm misquoting an old book, I think winning through intimidation?  In any case, it identifies three types of people.

1 - People that say they want their cookies, and yours, and then proceed to try to take them.

2 - People that say they don't want your cookies, then proceed to try to take them.

3 - People that say they don't want your cookies, but somehow through incompetence or confusion wind up with your cookies.

The point is, if you valued your cookies you cannot distinguish one from the other.  It's a lesson to be learned.  In the future handle your affairs so no one plausibly has access to your cookies.  

RE: Boss did not support our position

Thanks for sharing this, in the event I am ever in such a situation I will remember this.  I am curious, how do you feel about your boss technical skills?

RE: Boss did not support our position

(OP)
Thanks for all the advice.  It's been almost two months and since the "incident" I've written of here, the relationship has been professional but cold.  I actually prefer it as I can continue to keep my guard up.  I realized that when Boss and I were chatting about life and family that I was letting my guard down (so to speak).  I wonder if I could have seen the above situation coming?

Shamsdebout, my Boss is very competent technically.  She is aware of her technical skills and is confident, almost to the point of arrogance - but not quite.  She is also a very good project manager, a skilled negogiator, and a decent presenter.

RE: Boss did not support our position

going by your last paragraph shes not reading this is she?  

RE: Boss did not support our position

(OP)
LOL - I don't think so!  I've spoken with her about this site and she doesn't *appear* to know of it at all.

Regardless, I do believe her to be a very competent engineer but not a good manager.  Unfortunately, I've worked with (or for) very few good managers with engineering backgrounds.  For some reason, in my experience, good engineers tend not to make good managers.  Maybe that's just my perception.....

But, no, to answer your question - I am not writing these things thinking she's reading them.

RE: Boss did not support our position

"...my Boss is very competent technically.  She is aware of her technical skills and is confident, almost to the point of arrogance - but not quite.  She is also a very good project manager, a skilled negogiator, and a decent presenter."

Then it's quite possible that she had very good reasons for doing things the way she did.  Perhaps there's a bigger picture that you're not aware of, since she is technically good and also a good negotiator.

RE: Boss did not support our position

(OP)
Tenpenny,

Entirely possible.  But, if that is the case, then why not involve the Lead Engineer (me)?

If the issue is purely technical, then the Lead Engineer on the project should be involved.

If the Lead Engineer is/was not involved, then I can only assume the issue was anything but purely technical (i.e. personal, political, or managerial) - in which case the situation could have been handled better than to keep me in the dark, so to speak.

In other words, if there is a "bigger picture" that I cannot, for reasons of my position or whatever, be privy to - just say that.  "Hey, know that there is a bigger issue here and I need to step in."  Or something of that nature.

Instead, Boss plays sneaky and gets my suspicions up and then I have to endure her tirade after I ask questions.  I'm an engineer - asking questions is what I do.

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