"Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
"Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
(OP)
Does anyone know of a source for older versions of the Metal Building Manufacturer's Association (MBMA) Manual? The 2006 version is readily available, but older versions seem to have disappeared. I checked with MBMA and they don't provide.
Specifically, I'm looking for translucent roof panel criteria for any building constructed prior to 1985.
PS...For the record...I hate the term "pre-engineered metal building".....EVERY steel frame commercial building is "pre-engineered!!"
Specifically, I'm looking for translucent roof panel criteria for any building constructed prior to 1985.
PS...For the record...I hate the term "pre-engineered metal building".....EVERY steel frame commercial building is "pre-engineered!!"






RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
Do you have a section number to start with? There is nothing listed in the index for translucent roof panels.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
I'll see if I have anything else.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
Also - think of it this way..."they" use rinky tink metal that blows down in the windstorms. "we" use STEEL.
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
I am evaluating the skylights on a building that was built in the 1970's and the obviously brittle skylights are original. They are not the same type of layup as current skylights (they have a random roving in the glass fiber reinforcement; whereas, the current ones I've seen have directional woven or non-woven roving)..
Ron
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
Interestingly enough, that does not happen and they skip directly from 1 to 3 (Roofing to Cladding), never discussing skylights. Bummer.
If an errata sheet was made for this omission, intentional or otherwise, I never got a copy.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
On top of that, under Part IV, Common Industry Practices, Section 6.2.2, Work Usually Not Included In Erection, item #6 lists "Glazing for the Metal Building Accessories", which would definitely include any "skylights". The material is not specified, only the word "glazing". This would seemingly exclude translucent panels, although they are technically skylights.
In Part V, Guide Specification", Section 3.5 - Translucent Panels, Section A says that "The the translucent panels to be installed in accordance with manufacturer's instructions and details."
It seems to me, reading between the lines here, that the MBMA does not have any specs for these "skylights" or "transluucent Panels" or wants to due to the obvious omission and no erratas. It seems to be left up to the building manufacturer to set those specs, if any. Particlularly when the "glazing" appears to be manufactured by others than the metal building manufacturer in either case.
Interestingly enough, the glossary does recognize a skylight as different from a translucent panel.
So, are you sufficiently confused now? Hopefully JAE has more success.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
Logically, it would seem that the panels should have been designed to resist these loads. However, have you ever seen panels other than one size or thickness of material?
Pandora's box it seems.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
htt
At this site you have how their current (mechanical et al) properties are listed.
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
The 1974 MBMA Manual did not may a specifications for translucent panels. Attached is a copy of Section 12 of the '74 manual.
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
hokie66...interesting statement you made.. "At any rate, if the stuff has been there since 1985, don't step on it!"
I agree completely, but someone did and he's not around to tell about it. Trial is next week...will discuss when it's over.
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
Owner purchased existing pre-engineered metal building about 20 years ago. The building was over 10 years old when purchase by current owner, so building was constructed in mid-1970's.
After multiple hurricanes in 2004 in Central Florida, owner experienced roof leaks in metal roof panels. Insurance company investigated and would pay for replacement of all fasteners in the roof panels (gasketed TEKS screws).
Owner hired handyman company who had done some other work for him, to replace fasteners. Handyman company owner had tenant in one of his properties who was behind on rent and needed work to do. Handyman company owner hires tenant to install fasteners. Tenant had no construction training and no roof experience.
Went up on roof on a Sunday morning with drill and bag of screws. Handyman owner said he warned the guy to look out for skylights (flush mounted translucent panels) and not to step on them. Handyman owner left premises, leaving his employee unsupervised. He added a few screws (incorrect procedure...should have removed and replaced oversize head screws) and sometime that morning, step onto one of the 30+ year old skylights and fell through, landing on a car and the floor. He died from the fall.
His survivors sued the Handyman company, the Handyman company owner, and the building owner. The building owner was the only one with insurance since the handyman company owner carried no worker's comp or general liability insurance.
The survivor's "expert" and lawyers claimed the owner was responsible because he should have put guards up around the skylights or put a structural grid under the skylights to make sure no one would fall through. The owner never went on the roof, had no maintainable equipment on the roof, and didn't know anything about how the roof was built or what the OSHA requirements would be for employees working on a roof....the reason?...he was not the employer, did not have employees on the roof, and had no reason to know roofer's OSHA requirements. We countered that a skylight of that age would not and could not support a person and as long as it didn't leak, the owner would have no reason to maintain or even consider the skylights...they were performing their function.
Their expert tested new skylight material but failed to note that it was manufactured quite differently than the original skylight. Newer skylights are required to meet higher standards than the old ones. The old ones only had to meet minimal roof live load requirements (20psf) and had no concentrated load criteria.
Anyway...they settled the case because the insurance company didn't want to take a death case to trial. The settlement was apparently about what the trial would have cost to fight it, so the insurance company came out ahead, since a jury could have and likely would have awarded based to some degree on emotion.
The worker's negligence cost him his life. He was not qualified to do the work and was not supervised by his employer. How that became the owner's problem (other than perhaps making a bad decision to hire a Handyman company rather than a qualified contractor) is beyond me, but that's the way litigation works!!
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
Excellent closing story.
OSHA mandates the use of guard system and/or personal fall protection equipment that could save lifes, but was ignored quite often with tragic endings.
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
Steel does not break down with age the way plastic does. Corrode, yes, but 20 years after it is installed it is not inherently unsafe like these panels must be.
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
But then, what do I know.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
I agree with JLNJ...it's impractical to use fall protection every time you go on a roof. As a consultant, I go on all types of roofs from 1 to 40 stories, and cannot set up fall protection on many or most of them. I do not; however, step on skylights!! I realize that accidents happen, but one cannot afford to be anything less than extremely vigilant when walking on any type of roof.
JAE...got the emails....thanks, again.
Happy Thanksgiving to all in the US and to all our international friends...we'll eat an extra piece of turkey in your honor.
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
If it snows, how are you supposed to know where the panels are? I find it hard to believe that these are still on the market.
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
Perhaps the owner shares some liability due to the absence of such a sign.
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
The fibreglass panels should never be trusted beyond 10 years, and that depends on the environment they live in. In Australia, they have to have a wire safety mesh installed under the panels.
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
The panel configuration (r-panel) is still available; however, the materials and procedure for translucent panels have changed over the years...they are stronger now.
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
I agree that they may be "unsophisticated" with respect to construction and materials parameters, but they still have a duty of care to users of their facility, and need to engage the appropriate people to ensure it is 'safe' or that danger is apparent.
Whether that extends to providing signage for brittle roofing in your case, that was just wild conjecture on my part.
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
On second thought, your statute of limitations would probably have protected the sheeting supplier?? Anyway, they probably could have successfully argued that any fool knows that the material has a limited life, and they have so advertised.
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
Dik
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue
Couple lack of training, potential impairment from drugs, and old skylight with UV deterioration....
RE: "Pre-Engineered Metal Building Issue