The good news about windfarms
The good news about windfarms
(OP)
Well, I lie, there doesn't seem to be any unless you manufacture them i.e. you are Chinese.
(You may like to go to the thread730-257336: All your worries about jobs and China in one story! )
This article here is very illuminating, especially about the Dutch experience, they have decided that it is no longer for them:
http://www.aweo.org/ProblemWithWind.html
and following the link to the welsh wind farm development and its impact on the environment is well worth while:
http://www .users.glo balnet.co. uk/~hills/ cc/gallery /index.htm
So, don't deliver what is claimed, badly made elsewhere than where the tax premiums are collected and destroy the landscape.
I wonder what the good news is?
(You may like to go to the thread730-257336: All your worries about jobs and China in one story! )
This article here is very illuminating, especially about the Dutch experience, they have decided that it is no longer for them:
http://www.aweo.org/ProblemWithWind.html
and following the link to the welsh wind farm development and its impact on the environment is well worth while:
http://www
So, don't deliver what is claimed, badly made elsewhere than where the tax premiums are collected and destroy the landscape.
I wonder what the good news is?





RE: The good news about windfarms
Hollands 19% wind energy actually translates to around 1.3% but when quoting wind energy capacity we have to be very aware of what they actually mean.
"Capacity" seems to mean the rating of the turbine not what you actually get from it and if, as the Dutch found, you get it at the wrong time, you end up selling you highly subsidised energy at a thumping great discount.
But I had a surprise here:
http://www.aweo.org/windconsumption.html
Power stations are themselves consumers of power and their output is their generated power less their consumed power and generally they consume their own power.
Wind turbines apparently consume quite a bit of power but draw that power from the grid (I wonder why) and so the "Capacity" doesn't tell you that as much as 50% can be consumed by the turbine itself.
Boy oh boy, these wind farm people make double-glazing / aluminum-siding salesmen seem like the sort of blokes you'd want to see marry your daughters.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The good news about windfarms
The data I've seen generally indicate actual power generation is between 10% to 20% of the installed capacity.
RE: The good news about windfarms
Well now maybe they can be used to blow all that hot air back at the wind farm developers.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
Maybe a little different on the coast where the wind is a little different.
It's good that we have green power for our street lights, because no one else is awake to enjoy it.
RE: The good news about windfarms
Because of a lot of the things JMW mentions.
B.E.
RE: The good news about windfarms
Here's one reason why wind farms keep getting built - Business Energy Tax Credit (Oregon).
The cost to Oregon taxpayers has been 40 times what was originally told the legislators.
RE: The good news about windfarms
Interesting to see that the more wind turbines you have the greater proportion of the power that has to be backed up.
Some nice comments about how the wildlife kill potential has been misreported and how the RSPB has rolled over and supported wind farms in the UK.
I was pretty shocked at the environmental damage done by the Cefn Cwyd wind farm (which can be seen very nicely on Google earth.)
This was one pushed through using streamlined planning consent procedure - a procedure which does not allow for public enquiries and apparently which doesn't require and environmental impact statement. he punch line was to discover that far from reducing CO2 in some cases they actually will never recover the CO2 from the concrete bases and the CO2 released by destroying significant amounts of peat.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The good news about windfarms
Please let the people of reason speak up.
RE: The good news about windfarms
The only answer I can come up with is to wear a pointy aluminum foil hat next time we meet and tell him its to keep the aliens from reading my mind. If he takes it seriously, I'm selling magnets.
RE: The good news about windfarms
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"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
htt
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"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
RE: The good news about windfarms
Something that hadn't really registered; that wind power is not limitless - their is just so much packing density to wind turbines, and limited areas with sufficient wind (whatever sufficient is defined as these days) so naturally there is a limit.
A capacity of 16 times current demand seems comfortable but if you only get 20% of the rated capacity and 50% of that is energy consumed in running the damn things then that's only 10% which means there is a potential of 1.6 times current use which, with growth in demand, ain't gonna last long.
But that assumes installed capacity will even come close to potential capacity or to matching demand and will require conventional power back up of around 100% so you have to spend twice, once of the wind farms and once on the back up power.
Boy, this is this a rip-off merchants dream or isn't it?
I also noted this:
and the comment on the mismatch between the grid and areas with industrial capacity wind potential which mirrors some other report findings elsewhere.
So then you have an investment in grid structure to add in and if it takes 5 years to get the grid and 1 year to get the wind farm, why are they building the wind farms before they build the grids? To get the subsidies (stimulus funds) I guess. Probably no such finds for grid development?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The good news about windfarms
RE: The good news about windfarms
RE: The good news about windfarms
I was just estimating based on the amount of time they seem to turn verses the amount of time they're standing still, never mind on if they are turning near design point. On that on/off basis alone they simply can't be generating more than 25% of Capacity.
It seems like the name of the wind power game is to pass off all the big costs to the taxpayers, then claim a credit to boot. Did you see that even Marriott was reducing their taxes from 36% to 6%. This isn't really about the electricity at all.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
Can someone enlighten me?
RE: The good news about windfarms
In one of the articles somebody implied that the Barcelona black out was caused by a wind power grid mismatch. I hadn't heard anything official about what it was attributed to, so I will try to do some research into that.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
Now through the losses for storage of to much wind, and delivering when there is no wind. And what you have is no one has made a complete calculation, just some pie in the sky prediction that can never be relized.
Seems more like numbers to impress you friends, and influence people with.
RE: The good news about windfarms
When the wind power fad caught on here in Ontario a few years ago a lot of farmers were approached by developers to put up turbines on their land. Of course the famers were given business cases that quoted 100% of the nameplate power output and they bought in. I think everyone in this situation lost a lot of money, as they were the ones who paid for the set-up hoping to recoup the cost from the power they sold to the grid.
Of course the developers made off with stuffed pockets.
RE: The good news about windfarms
The 20% is the "capacity factor" and that X rated_capacity is supposedly what is actually generated over a year's time.
As explained here,
http://www.aweo.org/windtechnology.html
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
I won't denigh some wind power makes since, but most of what they are installing now is a waste of money.
For remote power systems it might be a good idea (like solar panels in space).
RE: The good news about windfarms
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
I also noticed they were very careful to avoid the sun-flash factor on houses (makes people buy guns).
The land had little value except for grazing, so the wind farm was welcome. They also paid the local schools, the value of taxes avoided. And during construction, they rented almost every vacant house for 15 miles.
Like the smell of money, people will become accustom to the sound of money (why does money always smell bad).
RE: The good news about windfarms
If you have all these windmills generating power, where do, you get, the spinning reserve from, when the wind drops?
B.E.
RE: The good news about windfarms
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: The good news about windfarms
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"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
RE: The good news about windfarms
This summer, instead of the UK drawing on France to make up for a shortfall in domestic supply, the unusual situation of Britain exporting electricity to France occurred.
Most of Frances Nuclear power stations are on rivers (the UK's are on the coast) and the hot dry summer meant river flows were a bit too low.
So, if we are to believe the warmists (which from today looks less likely) then this could be the trend of the future and not oly should the UK not look to France for buffering but may even have to supply France as well.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The good news about windfarms
dpc, Spain has relatively little transport capacity to/from EU. They say its because of the Pyrenes Mountains, but I suspect its really because the Spanish utilities could never think of facing the competition from French nuclear power.
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"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
RE: The good news about windfarms
Largemouths live in warmer lakes.
Trout live in cooler rivers.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
Another link showing unfavorable large scale wind turbine economics, but noting that the production tax credit is enough to pay for the generators alone within 10 years.
http://mb-soft.com/public/wind7.html
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
i really don't think that they are that ineffective,as there are thousands in use,surely there can't be that many stupid people,companies,governments.(i'm an optimist)
am aware of tax subsidies,i think that results in some inappropriate installations.
they do have their place in a mixed source power grid.
M6
RE: The good news about windfarms
I think the Dutch experience (referred to in the report) is the best answer to this.
They have had enough.
19% rated capacity turns out to be about 3% actual and costs way to much plus they have to dump it at way below cost into other markets.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The good news about windfarms
RE: The good news about windfarms
You can also use wind machines to compress air.
RE: The good news about windfarms
RE: The good news about windfarms
But that doesn't answer the question now, "Is it good for large scale grid integration?"
In some places there are even children's merry-go-rounds that pump water, but I wouldn't suggest we try powering America with that either. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean its a good thing to try.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
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"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
RE: The good news about windfarms
"I think baseload capacity is going to become an anachronism," he said. "Baseload capacity really used to only mean in an economic dispatch, which you dispatch first, what would be the cheapest thing to do. Well, ultimately wind's going to be the cheapest thing to do, so you'll dispatch that first."
Funnier than South Park
ht
RE: The good news about windfarms
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"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
The ignorance level on how the electrical grid actually operates is disheartening.
As H.L. Mencken once said, "No one ever went broke by underestimating the intelligence of the American people."
Now I have to get back to "Dancing with the Stars".....
RE: The good news about windfarms
RE: The good news about windfarms
RE: The good news about windfarms
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
It's just so sad that such important positions are viewed as honery. No wonder the infinstructure in this country is failing, with this kind of thinking.
However, those with the ability to make some murge of wind power and energy storage, mainly goverment entinity's, dosen't seem very interested.
RE: The good news about windfarms
RE: The good news about windfarms
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"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
Just saying.....
RE: The good news about windfarms
RE: The good news about windfarms
ht
RE: The good news about windfarms
Alan
"The engineer's first problem in any design situation is to discover what the problem really is." Unk.
RE: The good news about windfarms
I just had a look at the Spanish electrical network operator, Red Electrica España, statistics issued for Nov including the yearly accumulated production values up to 30 Nov.
They have a catagory just for wind.
17739 MW of installed wind turbine capacity produced a total of 31525 GWh. I figure that's 22% of rated capacity when averaged over the 11 month period. If it is true that the electricity is measured going into the grid, and parasite loss producing uses are later drawn back from the grid, its surely pointing to 15% or perhaps even less.
http://w
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
Alas, this article shows that the money makers are carrying on regardless:
http:/
Areas of Natural Beauty and Special Scientific Interest Areas are all grist to their mill. Not just one but a substantial proportion are being targeted for wind farms.
Money talks.
Ironic is that among those who are now vocal in opposition are the RSPB and Friends of the Earth who bear a great responsibility for these abuses, the one through negligent regard for its avowed interest in protecting birds and the other as a forum for radical "eco" activism.
As ever, the road to hell may be paved with good intentions but I am not convinced of the good intentions of organisations such as FOE. They are the masters of propaganda, quick to provoke a gullible public through the use and abuse of misinformation and the emotive phrase, eager to feed the sympathetic politicians with dubious data and interpretations, some among them now appear to recognise some of the folly that results, not just with regard to windfarms but also bio-fuels, for example.
The WWF ought also to be crying out against these shameful developments but when their Chariman has moved to the MET office as a dedicated AGW supporter, I think we can see how these organisations are vulnerable to busy activists who can, however few they are, exert a tremendous influence over the lives of the rest of us.
The damage these people have done, the huge amounts of money wasted and, above all, the probable harm inflicted on some of the poorest people in the world where there policies are forcing up food prices and diverting food producing land and resources into bio-fuels and where some suggest there are millions of lives at risk or already forfeit, is a crime against humanity as much as any totalitarian leader.
One of the most illuminating presentations by Borjn Blomberg is that in which he asks people to rank problems according to importance, where he correlates the amount of money required to the benefits delivered and where climate change is way down the list (but where our resources are being spent) while others, such as aid prevention, malaria etc. receive little support and thus necessarily condemn many people who could have been saved to death or a short life.
Malaria is a case in point.
I remember reading Silent Spring at the time it was published. I soaked it all in (I was more trusting and gullible then) but the the advocacy of banning DDT, for example, has indeed resulted in millions of lives lost that otherwise could have been saved.
But in all these cases it is doubtful any of those responsible for falsifying data, or alarmism will ever lose a single nights sleep over it - perhaps because they are too busy counting the money they have scammed.
Goodness knows, it is easy enough to make mistakes that cost lives, honest well meaning mistakes, but to knowingly and cynically advocate policies that are founded on very dubious or even outright false science is something that needs addressing.
I count FOE and their ilk in amongst these because I doubt their honesty and integrity and I doubt their motives.
I feel sorry for those well meaning people who continue to support these organisations long after they have been subverted, but they must recognise the truth and also take responsibility.
We know it was convenient for the advocates of global warming to propagandise the "summer heat deaths" warming would cause and of course, this too is an example of manipulating the truth to tell a lie. What they neglected, deliberately, was to also account for those who would die in colder winters - many more, as history shows us and which will become amplified by policies that cause fuel prices to "skyrocket" as Obama expects and welcomes as a means to help encourage economies. Of course it is as usual the old and the poor who suffer the most, the ones most at risk and the least able to afford green "taxation" and wind farm subsidies.
It isn't just about despoiling the landscape, it is about the real misery these policies will result in. Real people who will die in countless and probably uncounted numbers.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The good news about windfarms
http:
with the heading:
How to get rich from wind farming
(or something like that - when I went back the adverts had cycled- probably because I clicked on it).
Anyway, it is all about how you too can get wealthy from wind energy.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The good news about windfarms
The claim that wind energy will create jobs has been disputed, again; for every green energy job 2.2 jobs are lost elsewhere.
Starting with this report in the Telegraph:
http://bl
the links to follow are:
http
and this one:
http://w
and be sure to read the reports from the Spanish University; http:
and this one:
http://ww
This last is a rather more recent study than the one this thread opewned with.
Basically it seems the wind farm enthusiast Pres Obama, has been using the SPanish and Danish cases as examples of all that is good about wind farms while ignoring the real truth about the experinces of these countries.
Why aree politicians so addicted to policy that is unpopular and proped up by a tissue of lies?
What's in it for them?
Note the involvement of AL Gore and his accolytes.
Lastly, will Obama serve a second term? and how can the UK avoid the same trap since all the major parties seem hooked on the same b***s**t?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The good news about windfarms
The fact that someone will claim that a coal-fired power plant can be placed "anywhere," like in your backyard, is likewise, b***s**t.
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: The good news about windfarms
Over 1000 MWe of wind electric power was removed from the grid over a 45 minute period when the local weather at a large windfarm experienced severe winds , forcing some emergency backup generation to deploy and also forcing the dispatch to remove from the grid some large elect consumers. Then, just to make things intereting, the wind died down to below 49.99999 mph, and the wind turbines reloaded and surprised the grid with 1000+ MWE of power it no longer needed.
The promoters of wind generation now claim that issue can be mitigated by installing improved wind predictors ( using the same style mathematics as used by the financial derivative crooks) and allowing the dispatcher to schedule alternate generation based on these predictions.
Other means to minimize the sytem impact is to (a) interconnect ERCOT to the rest of teh civilized world and (b) install "smart meters" at everyon's home to offload all consumers largte appliances when such events occur.
RE: The good news about windfarms
<http://www
RE: The good news about windfarms
Personally I believe the wind farms should purchase and manage the backup generation as to level out the generation to the grid.
Because what I believe won't soon come true, we need to lay this issue at the doorstep of NERC, for creating this mess.
RE: The good news about windfarms
A local company that assembles the nacelle from parts made wholly in China started assembling a new model this week. It is a 2.5 MW unit to replace the 1.5 MW now being assembled here by GE.
The Chinese got to whole thing, the new factory and the new jobs. The local company called back 4 workers they had laid off last June.
RE: The good news about windfarms
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"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
If you give up hope you might as well go down deep into the CRSS (from another thread)
Fe
RE: The good news about windfarms
If the blades rotate, at some point they will be either vertical, or horizontal. Or are you talking about some sort of egg beater design?
RE: The good news about windfarms
They supposedly are somewhat better because they don't lose energy overcoming the gyroscopic effects of the rotating blades and equipment as they swing to the keep the direction of changing winds.
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"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
The "vertical axis" term would have explained it to me.
RE: The good news about windfarms
The R&D is not quire complete yet though.
Fe
RE: The good news about windfarms
Fe
RE: The good news about windfarms
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"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: The good news about windfarms
David Castor
www.cvoes.com
RE: The good news about windfarms
ht
The other links are also worth a read.
h
htt
Sadly, with a financial crisis in the UK, the new government is even more committed to wind farms. The deputy prime minister's (Clegg's) Spanish wife has taken a high paid job with a Spanish wind turbine company and the Prime Minister's Father in law is another wind farm entrepreneur.
What makes you think the taxpayer is being shafted?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The good news about windfarms
"We have a leadership style that is too directive and doesn't listen sufficiently well. The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying." Tony Hayward CEO BP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.liv
RE: The good news about windfarms
Not only is wind power twice as expensive as fossil fuel... it does not compare favourably with nuclear power and offshore windfarms are likely to have a much shorter life than land based......
Back to the drawing board? I doubt it. The eco-fascists will not be denied.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The good news about windfarms
"I am sure it can be done. I've seen it on the internet." BigInch's favorite client.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com
RE: The good news about windfarms
This whole discussion has unfortunately reduced my faith in wind power by a lot and is starting to remind me of the whole push for bioethanol from corn. The vast majority of people bought into that idea when it takes only a modicum of common sense to realize that that whole scheme made no sense no matter which way you look at it. Just three years out and you no longer hear anything about it in the news.
Common sense seems to be in critically short supply.
That said, dedicating wind power to pump water into storage lakes seems to be a great way to store energy to me. I have faith for the future of wind power so long as people with common sense are in charge of the projects. If only we could find those people with common sense... and the honor to admit when they've made a mistake in policy.
RE: The good news about windfarms
"I am sure it can be done. I've seen it on the internet." BigInch's favorite client.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com
RE: The good news about windfarms
Starting at the top, I looked at the article and links from the OP's message. I've seen the article before, and I didn't like the conjecture instead of facts in some of the arguments. I might make the same conjectures myself (eg. about forced coolant/lubrication flows wasting power, etc.) but that's beside the point. The argument should be made from manufacturer's data. Check your facts.
Looking at the forest and land clearance that was done in Holland, the waste is deplorable. Compared to the extent of deforestation done if that was for an oil well or a natural gas well... Uh exactly the same. Roads, foundations, churned-up streams, all the same will happen regardless of the resource to be gained. Pipelines requires deforestation just like transmission lines. In the Dutch case they are "choosing" the reason for industrial activity in the countryside. If I recall correctly, peat is regularly scooped up to be burned in decorative fireplaces throughout Europe. Before making a judgement, consider the alternative.
Balancing loads on the grid is probably more complex than any of us "laymen" appreciate. Having listened to talks given by various representatives of electrical distribution regulators, and seeing their "balancing pool" output on-line in real-time, the system requires a lot of computers collecting a lot of data and directing plants to start up and shut down. Even in a limited market like a single province of Canada, here. For one of us "laymen" to look up at a turbine and infer what stage of operationg its in assumes we know a lot about the rest of the grid than we actually do.
Ground observations of the wind are not reliable indications of wind at high elevation. That laminar flow gradient that we former fluid-dynamics students remember is a statistical average shape. If I get anywhere near the lee of a building or a tree my perception of the wind speed and direction is strongly affected. So standing near a wind turbine and guessing why it's spinning while you feel naught but a breeze is no indication of much at all.
Politics, sadly, uses people's sentimentality to get what it wants. The current fad is to "go green" and wind turbines really are the poster child of the movement. So if you see a new wind farm in Alabama, it likely is politicians trying to score points by backing a project doomed to fail. If it's North Dakota, there's a real prospect of honest profit. Every state wants its "fair share" of the renewable business, but the resource is not spread out as fairly. Even MORE SAD, is that the average voter (any country - there is no america-bashing implied) doesn't know enough to judge the project's success or failure. So the politician can claim success no matter the outcome, next election. It's public ignorance that allows bad WT's to keep selling, and taxpayers to keep footing the bill for pork-barrel projects (wind or otherwise).
Well, there's my brain-dump. Personally I don't get judgemental about all wind energy just because of a few poorly-done installations. I live close to some successes and some failures. The successful WT's are suited to their task and site they are on. The failures are the mis-matches.
Steven Fahey, CET