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The good news about windfarms
3

The good news about windfarms

The good news about windfarms

(OP)
Well, I lie, there doesn't seem to be any unless you manufacture them i.e. you are Chinese.
(You may like to go to the thread730-257336: All your worries about jobs and China in one story! )
This article here is very illuminating, especially about the Dutch experience, they have decided that it is no longer for them:
http://www.aweo.org/ProblemWithWind.html
and following the link to the welsh wind farm development and its impact on the environment is well worth while:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hills/cc/gallery/index.htm

So, don't deliver what is claimed, badly made elsewhere than where the tax premiums are collected and destroy the landscape.
I wonder what the good news is?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: The good news about windfarms

(OP)
The article is a very illuminating read, especially if you follow the links.
Hollands 19% wind energy actually translates to around 1.3% but when quoting wind energy capacity we have to be very aware of what they actually mean.
"Capacity" seems to mean the rating of the turbine not what you actually get from it and if, as the Dutch found, you get it at the wrong time, you end up selling you highly subsidised energy at a thumping great discount.

But I had a surprise here:
http://www.aweo.org/windconsumption.html
Power stations are themselves consumers of power and their output is their generated power less their consumed power and generally they consume their own power.

Wind turbines apparently consume quite a bit of power but draw that power from the grid (I wonder why) and so the "Capacity" doesn't tell you that as much as 50% can be consumed by the turbine itself.

Boy oh boy, these wind farm people make double-glazing / aluminum-siding salesmen seem like the sort of blokes you'd want to see marry your daughters.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: The good news about windfarms

I think the aluminum siding will last longer than the wind turbines.

The data I've seen generally indicate actual power generation is between 10% to 20% of the installed capacity.   

RE: The good news about windfarms

You know, I think that the 10-20% must be pretty close to reality for most installations.  It would fit my non-scientific observations.  Here they don't turn at all in the summer, except for a couple of hours in the evening.  They do run more during winter months, but still for every day they run there must be 3 or 4 where they hardly turn at all.  I've had a suspicion that they were making 25% or less than their rated capacity and they were actually only being built to lock in the tax credits.  I warned my brother about that when he was working on a potential project to lease all the available wind acreage from Wyoming to North Dakota, plus the investment needed to get any electricity generated out of there. Very interesting to start to see some confirmation of those WAG estimates.

Well now maybe they can be used to blow all that hot air back at the wind farm developers.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

The name I have herd for wind power is "vampire power", because it shows up mostly at night in the Winter, exactly when you don't need it.

Maybe a little different on the coast where the wind is a little different.

It's good that we have green power for our street lights, because no one else is awake to enjoy it.

 

RE: The good news about windfarms

It brings up an interesting dichotomy, a group of environmentalists, are now, opposing a wind farm in eastern San Diego county California that they originally pushed.
Because of a lot of the things JMW mentions.
B.E.

RE: The good news about windfarms

(OP)
Well, it doesn't matter that the Spansish have chopped the subsidy and stopped fussing with wind turbines nor that the Dutch have cancelled plans for new farms and chopped the cash support and ditto elsewhere, in the UK Tony Blair said we'd have X% rated power from wind and Gordon Brown now has that at 20%.
Interesting to see that the more wind turbines you have the greater proportion of the power that has to be backed up.

Some nice comments about how the wildlife kill potential has been misreported and how the RSPB has rolled over and supported wind farms in the UK.

I was pretty shocked at the environmental damage done by the Cefn Cwyd wind farm (which can be seen very nicely on Google earth.)
This was one pushed through using streamlined planning consent procedure - a procedure which does not allow for public enquiries and apparently which doesn't require and environmental impact statement. he punch line was to discover that far from reducing CO2 in some cases they actually will never recover the CO2 from the concrete bases and the CO2 released by destroying significant amounts of peat.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: The good news about windfarms

What is so hard for people to believe that to much of anything is bad? (Windpower included).

Please let the people of reason speak up.

RE: The good news about windfarms

It would be a nice change if reason prevailed. I have a customer that wants wind power, rationale given is it is trendy and makes a PR splash if no one looks at the economics. I mentioned that they could save more energy than the wind can generate by spending money on insulating 65 year old buildings, which would be a lower cost investment, lower life cycle costs, lower maintenance and better work environment. Guess which direction was given? I'm thinking next they'll want VFD's on all the constant flow pumps, and some snake oil salesman will next be pushing the miraculous energy savings potential of magnets.

The only answer I can come up with is to wear a pointy aluminum foil hat next time we meet and tell him its to keep the aliens from reading my mind. If he takes it seriously, I'm selling magnets.

RE: The good news about windfarms

Insulation definitely ≠ sexy

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

Now I know why Spanish wind farm proponents are moving to the US.  To market the tax credits.
http://solveclimate.com/blog/20090721/spanish-wind-giant-seeks-500m-slice-us-clean-energy-pie
 

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

Tax credits? And we wonder why the deficit keeps going up.

 

RE: The good news about windfarms

(OP)
Some curious wording in the article - apart from "Installed capacity" -

Quote:

The wind power potential across the United States is tremendous—as much as 16 times its total electricity demand, according to a new Harvard-led study recently published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Something that hadn't really registered; that wind power is not limitless - their is just so much packing density to wind turbines, and limited areas with sufficient wind (whatever sufficient is defined as these days) so naturally there is a limit.
A capacity of 16 times current demand seems comfortable but if you only get 20% of the rated capacity and 50% of that is energy consumed in running the damn things then that's only 10% which means there is a potential of 1.6 times current use which, with growth in demand, ain't gonna last long.

But that assumes installed capacity will even come close to potential capacity or to matching demand and will require conventional power back up of around 100% so you have to spend twice, once of the wind farms and once on the back up power.

Boy, this is this a rip-off merchants dream or isn't it?

I also noted this:

Quote:

Indeed, transmission may be the greatest challenge facing the U.S. wind industry. While it can take just about a year to build a wind farm, it can take around five to deliver the clean power to populated areas.
and the comment on the mismatch between the grid and areas with industrial capacity wind potential which mirrors some other report findings elsewhere.
So then you have an investment in grid structure to add in and if it takes 5 years to get the grid and 1 year to get the wind farm, why are they building the wind farms before they build the grids? To get the subsidies (stimulus funds) I guess. Probably no such finds for grid development?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: The good news about windfarms

The grid definitely can be a problem, especially with NIMBY always going to occur. Who wants a high voltage transmission line in their back yard?

RE: The good news about windfarms

When the wind is not blowing there is plenty of transmission capacity.

 

RE: The good news about windfarms

It does seem like the parasitic instrument and oil pump power, cable unwinding power, etc. that were mentioned are too high at around 20%.  I would think they wouldn't be more than 10%.  But then again probably 5% is just from cable and transformer losses.  Maybe 20% is correct, but I have no personal knowledge base there.  Be interesting to hear from some insiders about that.

I was just estimating based on the amount of time they seem to turn verses the amount of time they're standing still, never mind on if they are turning near design point.  On that on/off basis alone they simply can't be generating more than 25% of Capacity.

It seems like the name of the wind power game is to pass off all the big costs to the taxpayers, then claim a credit to boot.  Did you see that even Marriott was reducing their taxes from 36% to 6%.  This isn't really about the electricity at all.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

I am not an expert by any means but I always thought that when you see figures like 20 - 30% output for wind turbines that doesn't include when the turbines are off.  That means that these units are only generating 20 - 30% of their nameplate rating when they are actually spinning.

Can someone enlighten me?
 

RE: The good news about windfarms

Forgot to mention,

In one of the articles somebody implied that the Barcelona black out was caused by a wind power grid mismatch.  I hadn't heard anything official about what it was attributed to, so I will try to do some research into that.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

So what is the total harvest factor of a wind farm? 25% of name plate, plus something for losses, plus the wind between the towers (so the standing towers don't interfear with each other), plus step up losses, and collector losses, and transmission losses. Factor in land non-usability factors (like off the coast of capecod), and what is the realistic deliverability total?

Now through the losses for storage of to much wind, and delivering when there is no wind. And what you have is no one has made a complete calculation, just some pie in the sky prediction that can never be relized.

Seems more like numbers to impress you friends, and influence people with.

RE: The good news about windfarms

Cranky - that is what I tell people who ask.

When the wind power fad caught on here in Ontario a few years ago a lot of farmers were approached by developers to put up turbines on their land.  Of course the famers were given business cases that quoted 100% of the nameplate power output and they bought in.  I think everyone in this situation lost a lot of money, as they were the ones who paid for the set-up hoping to recoup the cost from the power they sold to the grid.

Of course the developers made off with stuffed pockets.

RE: The good news about windfarms

marks1080,
The 20% is the "capacity factor" and that X rated_capacity is supposedly what is actually generated over a year's time.

As explained here,
http://www.aweo.org/windtechnology.html

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

But the actual data farther down indicates the wind capacity factor for 2004 was really only 0.127

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

On the other hand I have seen farmers who leased there land to wind developers and made good money for it. However I wonder who will take these things down after 15 or 20 years.

I won't denigh some wind power makes since, but most of what they are installing now is a waste of money.

For remote power systems it might be a good idea (like solar panels in space).

RE: The good news about windfarms

Its good somebody can make some money at it, unfortunately it appears to be at the expense of their neighbors, if not the taxpayers as a whole.  Maybe they should share their good fortune with the town and divide up the money they receive with the folks that live within hearing distance, or sight.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

There really wasen't that many houses where these were located.

I also noticed they were very careful to avoid the sun-flash factor on houses (makes people buy guns).

The land had little value except for grazing, so the wind farm was welcome. They also paid the local schools, the value of taxes avoided. And during construction, they rented almost every vacant house for 15 miles.

Like the smell of money, people will become accustom to the sound of money (why does money always smell bad).

RE: The good news about windfarms

One question that has always intrigued me.
If you have all these windmills generating power, where do, you get, the spinning reserve from, when the wind drops?
B.E.

RE: The good news about windfarms

Hydro if you are lucky, gas turbines if not. Good innit?

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: The good news about windfarms

I've seen some proposals to install large fly-wheels (another parasitic load), which would continue to power the grid after the wind fails just long enough to allow time to bring other generators up to speed.  I don't know if they have actually been employed anywhere yet.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

If you're in Europe, the spinning reserve comes from French nuclear power plants.   

RE: The good news about windfarms

(OP)
Ah, but not always.
This summer, instead of the UK drawing on France to make up for a shortfall in domestic supply, the unusual situation of Britain exporting electricity to France occurred.
 Most of Frances Nuclear power stations are on rivers (the UK's are on the coast) and the hot dry summer meant river flows were a bit too low.
So, if we are to believe the warmists (which from today looks less likely) then this could be the trend of the future and not oly should the UK not look to France for buffering but may even have to supply France as well.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: The good news about windfarms

jmw,  That's an interesting prediction.

dpc,  Spain has relatively little transport capacity to/from EU.  They say its because of the Pyrenes Mountains, but I suspect its really because the Spanish utilities could never think of facing the competition from French nuclear power.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

Or they can stock the rivers with largemouth bass instead of trout?

RE: The good news about windfarms

Ya. Probably the largemouth bass that eat trout.

Largemouths live in warmer lakes.  
Trout live in cooler rivers.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

It seems to be common to use a weibull distribution to approximate wind power production, but I've recently seen some example power calculations made using that method and the average month's windspeed that calculated produced power at almost 2X what using the average hourly wind speeds would suggest.  The weibull distributions are very dependent on the assumed curve shape factor.  WT manufacturers also make estimated  output power using a shape factor of 2.  When I checked the assumed shape factor used at that location against the actual hourly windspeed data, the factor used was a very poor choice.  

Another link showing unfavorable large scale wind turbine economics, but noting that the production tax credit is enough to pay for the generators alone within 10 years.
http://mb-soft.com/public/wind7.html

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

seems that windmills are a hot topic nearly everywhere.
i really don't think that they are that ineffective,as there are thousands in use,surely there can't be that many stupid people,companies,governments.(i'm an optimist)

am aware of tax subsidies,i think that results in some inappropriate installations.

they do have their place in a mixed source power grid.

M6
 

RE: The good news about windfarms

(OP)
mechanic6,
I think the Dutch experience (referred to in the report) is the best answer to this.
They have had enough.
19% rated capacity turns out to be about 3% actual and costs way to much plus they have to dump it at way below cost into other markets.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: The good news about windfarms

Windmills are pretty effective for driving pumps, as I've been in a couple that have run for hundreds of years. Fortunately, with "green" mentality, we can now use windmills to generate power to run electric pumps.

RE: The good news about windfarms

Would you not use windmills for milling grain? And use windpumps for pumping water, and wind generators for generating electricity. Or just call all of them wind machines?

You can also use wind machines to compress air.

RE: The good news about windfarms

I've heard the same discussion, it usually breaks down when you get to "windbreaker"

RE: The good news about windfarms

Yes I hear that they still use windmills for pumping water, when there is no other power source, when you can pump a little bit almost all the time and store it for when consumers are present, when solar isn't a good option, or when wind-electric is too expensive and when you don't have to move the water very far to use it.

But that doesn't answer the question now, "Is it good for large scale grid integration?"  

In some places there are even children's merry-go-rounds that pump water, but I wouldn't suggest we try powering America with that either.  Just because you can do it, doesn't mean its a good thing to try.

 

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

But maybe if these things don't work, we may have to think about it.   

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

Solves energy needs and childhood obesity, a win-win. Chain em up.

RE: The good news about windfarms

The FERC Chairman said this recently (I think he is an attorney)

"I think baseload capacity is going to become an anachronism," he said. "Baseload capacity really used to only mean in an economic dispatch, which you dispatch first, what would be the cheapest thing to do. Well, ultimately wind's going to be the cheapest thing to do, so you'll dispatch that first."

Funnier than South Park

http://neinuclearnotes.blogspot.com/2009/04/fercs-chairman-jon-wellinghoff-on.html
 

RE: The good news about windfarms

No worries!  We'll just brown-out to match the dispatch and then watch the turbines spin backwards.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

If we could get the windbag politicians closer to the wind turbines, they could keep them turning with hot air.  

The ignorance level on how the electrical grid actually operates is disheartening.

As H.L. Mencken once said, "No one ever went broke by underestimating the intelligence of the American people."

Now I have to get back to "Dancing with the Stars".....  

 

RE: The good news about windfarms

Wind is definitely not cheap. While using politicians for a renewable unnatural energy supply may sound like a good thing, the cost of their wind is very high. If they could be trained to only partisan bickering instead of pork barreling it may work-otherwise its like running a boiler plant on ten dollar bills.

RE: The good news about windfarms

The sad thing is he is not technically a politician he is running FERC!

RE: The good news about windfarms

Well... you can't have chickens in charge of the coop.  I think there's a natural law about that.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

Lets repeal those nasty laws of physics, and common sence thinking.

It's just so sad that such important positions are viewed as honery. No wonder the infinstructure in this country is failing, with this kind of thinking.

However, those with the ability to make some murge of wind power and energy storage, mainly goverment entinity's, dosen't seem very interested.

RE: The good news about windfarms

Other powerful people like TBP also push wind power. His agenda includes compressed natural gas to fuel our cars.  I too advocate renewable sources such as wind and solar where practical.  I see nuclear power as the prime source for electrical power generation and eliminating coal from this equation.  Perhaps coal may be the building block for the next generation chemicals but not as a combustion fuel.  Perhaps those knowledgeable about the wind power inefficiencies and related problems should be as vocal as the wind power advocates.

RE: The good news about windfarms

I don't think I could work on a large scale wind project with a clear conscience.  I've had to pass working on a petroleum development project here lately too.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

An old boss once told me - "If they insist on throwing money away on this project, they might as well throw it to us."  

Just saying.....  

RE: The good news about windfarms

True it is very hard to work on a project you don't believe in. However, it is nice to take home money. So I won't say no.

RE: The good news about windfarms

Looks like the foundation failed.

Alan
"The engineer's first problem in any design situation is to discover what the problem really is." Unk.

RE: The good news about windfarms

More fuel on the fire... so to speak.

I just had a look at the Spanish electrical network operator, Red Electrica España, statistics issued for Nov including the yearly accumulated production values up to 30 Nov.

They have a catagory just for wind.

17739 MW of installed wind turbine capacity produced a total of 31525 GWh.  I figure that's 22% of rated capacity when averaged over the 11 month period.  If it is true that the electricity is measured going into the grid, and parasite loss producing uses are later drawn back from the grid, its surely pointing to 15% or perhaps even less.


http://www.ree.es/sistema_electrico/pdf/boletin_mensual/peninsular/nov2009.pdf

 

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

(OP)
In the links above, there was one to the Cefn Croes wind farm which ought to have alerted people to the gross abuses of the environment that wind farming can frequently perpetrate.

Alas, this article shows that the money makers are carrying on regardless:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/greenpolitics/planning/7004551/Wind-farms-could-blight-one-in-six-beauty-spots.html
Areas of Natural Beauty and Special Scientific Interest Areas are all grist to their mill. Not just one but a substantial proportion are being targeted for wind farms.

Money talks.

Ironic is that among those who are now vocal in opposition are the RSPB and Friends of the Earth  who bear a great responsibility for these abuses, the one through negligent regard for its avowed interest in protecting birds and the other as a forum for radical "eco" activism.

As ever, the road to hell may be paved with good intentions but I am not convinced of the good intentions of organisations such as FOE. They are the masters of propaganda, quick to provoke a gullible public through the use and abuse of misinformation and the emotive phrase, eager to feed the sympathetic politicians with dubious data and interpretations, some among them now appear to recognise some of the folly that results, not just with regard to windfarms but also bio-fuels, for example.

The WWF ought also to be crying out against these shameful developments but when their Chariman has moved to the MET office as a dedicated AGW supporter, I think we can see how these organisations are vulnerable to busy activists who can, however few they are, exert a tremendous influence over the lives of the rest of us.

The damage these people have done, the huge amounts of money wasted and, above all, the probable harm inflicted on some of the poorest people in the world where there policies are forcing up food prices and diverting food producing land and resources into bio-fuels and where some suggest there are millions of lives at risk or already forfeit, is a crime against humanity as much as any totalitarian leader.

One of the most illuminating presentations by Borjn Blomberg is that in which he asks people to rank problems according to importance, where he correlates the amount of money required to the benefits delivered and where climate change is way down the list (but where our resources are being spent) while others, such as aid prevention, malaria etc. receive little support and thus necessarily condemn many people who could have been saved to death or a short life.
Malaria is a case in point.
I remember reading Silent Spring at the time it was published. I soaked it all in (I was more trusting and gullible then) but the the advocacy of banning DDT, for example, has indeed resulted in millions of lives lost that otherwise could have been saved.

But in all these cases it is doubtful any of those responsible for falsifying data, or alarmism will ever lose a single nights sleep over it - perhaps because they are too busy counting the money they have scammed.

Goodness knows, it is easy enough to make mistakes that cost lives, honest well meaning mistakes, but to knowingly and cynically advocate policies that are founded on very dubious or even outright false science is something that needs addressing.

I count FOE and their ilk in amongst these because I doubt their honesty and integrity and I doubt their motives.

I feel sorry for those well meaning people who continue to support these organisations long after they have been subverted, but they must recognise the truth and also take responsibility.

We know it was convenient for the advocates of global warming to propagandise the "summer heat deaths" warming would cause and of course, this too is an example of manipulating the truth to tell a lie. What they neglected, deliberately, was to also account for those who would die in colder winters - many more, as history shows us and which will become amplified by policies that cause fuel prices to "skyrocket" as Obama expects and welcomes as a means to help encourage economies. Of course it is as usual the old and the poor who suffer the most, the ones most at risk and the least able to afford green "taxation" and wind farm subsidies.

It isn't just about despoiling the landscape, it is about the real misery these policies will result in. Real people who will die in countless and probably uncounted numbers.    

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: The good news about windfarms

(OP)
Seems some people think President Obama has beeen fiddling the stats.
The claim that wind energy will create jobs has been disputed, again; for every green energy job 2.2 jobs are lost elsewhere.
Starting with this report in the Telegraph:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100028631/what-dave-and-his-chum-barack-dont-want-you-to-know-about-green-jobs-and-green-energy/comment-page-7/#comment-100199171
the links to follow are:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/breaking-anti-lobbyist-obama-administration-recruited-left-wing-lobbyists-to-sell-bogus-green-jobs/?singlepage=true
and this one:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6954565.ece
and be sure to read the reports from the Spanish University; http://www.juandemariana.org/pdf/090327-employment-public-aid-renewable.pdf
and this one:
http://www.cepos.dk/fileadmin/user_upload/Arkiv/PDF/Wind_energy_-_the_case_of_Denmark.pdf
This last is a rather more recent study than the one this thread opewned with.

Basically it seems the wind farm enthusiast Pres Obama, has been using the SPanish and Danish cases as examples of all that is good about wind farms while ignoring the real truth about the experinces of these countries.

Why aree politicians so addicted to policy that is unpopular and proped up by a tissue of lies?
What's in it for them?
Note the involvement of AL Gore and his accolytes.
Lastly, will Obama serve a second term? and how can the UK avoid the same trap since all the major parties seem hooked on the same b***s**t?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: The good news about windfarms

Pretty obvious that both sides will make "factual" statements as perceived by their own biased viewpoints.  

The fact that someone will claim that a coal-fired power plant can be placed "anywhere," like in your backyard, is likewise, b***s**t.  

TTFN

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RE: The good news about windfarms

One peculiarity of windfarms is that all of the turbines are designed to decouple and lose their load if the windspeed exceeds 50.00001 mph. This characterisitc provides a severe potential for system instability, as proven in the 28 Feb 2008 Texas ERCOT event.

Over 1000 MWe of wind electric  power was removed from the grid over a 45 minute period when the local weather at a large windfarm experienced severe winds , forcing some emergency backup generation to deploy and also forcing the dispatch to remove from the grid some large elect consumers. Then, just to make things intereting, the wind died down to below 49.99999 mph, and the wind turbines reloaded and surprised the grid with 1000+ MWE of power it no longer needed.

The promoters of wind generation now claim that issue can be mitigated by installing improved wind predictors ( using the  same style mathematics as used by the  financial derivative crooks) and allowing the dispatcher to schedule alternate generation based on these predictions.

 Other means to minimize the sytem impact is to (a) interconnect ERCOT to the rest of teh civilized world and (b) install "smart meters" at everyon's home to offload all consumers largte appliances when such events occur.

RE: The good news about windfarms

Many of us already know of this problem, and have been trying to make it known to the rest of the world.

Personally I believe the wind farms should purchase and manage the backup generation as to level out the generation to the grid.

Because what I believe won't soon come true, we need to lay this issue at the doorstep of NERC, for creating this mess.

RE: The good news about windfarms

An interesting tidbit of information about the turbines assembled locally.
A local company that assembles the nacelle from parts made wholly in China started assembling a new model this week. It is a 2.5 MW unit to replace the 1.5 MW now being assembled here by GE.
The Chinese got to whole thing, the new factory and the new jobs. The local company called back 4 workers they had laid off last June.
 

RE: The good news about windfarms

Everybody give a big "Thank you" to GE's free trade unit.  I'm sure the cost of electricity will go down now.

**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

The good news is we will be building vertical turbines in Canada that will be superior to the horizontal.
If you give up hope you might as well go down deep into the CRSS (from another thread) cheers

peace
Fe

RE: The good news about windfarms

So if I may ask, what is the difference between horizontal and vertical blades?

If the blades rotate, at some point they will be either vertical, or horizontal. Or are you talking about some sort of egg beater design?

RE: The good news about windfarms

He means rotation about a vertical axis.

They supposedly are somewhat better because they don't lose energy overcoming the gyroscopic effects of the rotating blades and equipment as they swing to the keep the direction of changing winds.

  

**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

So an egg beater design.

The "vertical axis" term would have explained it to me.

RE: The good news about windfarms

Yea that's right, vertical axis.
The R&D is not quire complete yet though.  smile  

peace
Fe

RE: The good news about windfarms

quite*  pipe

peace
Fe

RE: The good news about windfarms

Nope.  Technically the "eggbeater" refers to a Darrieus turbine,

**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: The good news about windfarms

I bet the birds love that thing.  

David Castor
www.cvoes.com

RE: The good news about windfarms

(OP)
The even better news for Brits is that not only are wind farms subsidies paid for building the damn things, they are now paid subsidies to switch them off when the wind blows.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/7840035/Firms-paid-to-shut-down-wind-farms-when-the-wind-is-blowing.html
The other links are also worth a read.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/7840036/The-hippy-wind-farm-tycoon-receiving-millions-in-subsidies.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/7061552/Wind-farm-subsidies-top-1-billion-a-year.html
Sadly, with a financial crisis in the UK, the new government is even more committed to wind farms. The deputy prime minister's (Clegg's) Spanish wife has taken a high paid job with a Spanish wind turbine company and the Prime Minister's Father in law is another wind farm entrepreneur.
What makes you think the taxpayer is being shafted?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: The good news about windfarms

Thought they only made those kind of relationships in the Ozarks.

"We have a leadership style that is too directive and doesn't listen sufficiently well. The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying."  Tony Hayward CEO BP
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermitfrog http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.liv

RE: The good news about windfarms

I don't think its the eco-fascists that are the ones financing these things.  As they say, "If you want to really find out what's really going on, follow the money trail".  You will find out that things like, Marriott Corp (the well-known eco-fascist's hotel chain) reduced their tax burden to 5% by buying into excess tax credit sharing funds.  Funds composed of tax credit based investments that were so high, the wind project proponents couldn't use all of them.  I think Wall Street likes them as much, or more, as any eco-fascist does.

"I am sure it can be done. I've seen it on the internet."  BigInch's favorite client.

"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermitfrog http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com

RE: The good news about windfarms

Never over-estimate the stupidity of people, and it takes a college graduate to make truely stupid decisions.

This whole discussion has unfortunately reduced my faith in wind power by a lot and is starting to remind me of the whole push for bioethanol from corn. The vast majority of people bought into that idea when it takes only a modicum of common sense to realize that that whole scheme made no sense no matter which way you look at it. Just three years out and you no longer hear anything about it in the news.

Common sense seems to be in critically short supply.

That said, dedicating wind power to pump water into storage lakes seems to be a great way to store energy to me. I have faith for the future of wind power so long as people with common sense are in charge of the projects. If only we could find those people with common sense... and the honor to admit when they've made a mistake in policy.

RE: The good news about windfarms

Yes.  It does seem to be one practice exercise in the oncoming Chinese (not intending to be politically incorrect, just how the saying goes) fire drill.   I do think a lot of aspects of wind power make sense, but like most everything, it too has specific applications and locations for where it works and IMO a lot more where it doesn't.  When tax credits got attached and wind became a general universal solution for taxes and not a specific solution for  the supply of energy at locations where it could be used as efficiently as possible was when wind started loosing relevance.

"I am sure it can be done. I've seen it on the internet."  BigInch's favorite client.

"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermitfrog http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com

RE: The good news about windfarms

I'd like to inject a few of my own comments into this discussion, (being a lukewarm supporter of wind energy, and owning a turbine of my own).

Starting at the top, I looked at the article and links from the OP's message.  I've seen the article before, and I didn't like the conjecture instead of facts in some of the arguments.  I might make the same conjectures myself (eg. about forced coolant/lubrication flows wasting power, etc.) but that's beside the point.  The argument should be made from manufacturer's data.  Check your facts.  

Looking at the forest and land clearance that was done in Holland, the waste is deplorable.  Compared to the extent of deforestation done if that was for an oil well or a natural gas well...  Uh exactly the same.  Roads, foundations, churned-up streams, all the same will happen regardless of the resource to be gained.  Pipelines requires deforestation just like transmission lines.  In the Dutch case they are "choosing" the reason for industrial activity in the countryside.  If I recall correctly, peat is regularly scooped up to be burned in decorative fireplaces throughout Europe.  Before making a judgement, consider the alternative.

Balancing loads on the grid is probably more complex than any of us "laymen" appreciate.  Having listened to talks given by various representatives of electrical distribution regulators, and seeing their "balancing pool" output on-line in real-time, the system requires a lot of computers collecting a lot of data and directing plants to start up and shut down.  Even in a limited market like a single province of Canada, here.  For one of us "laymen" to look up at a turbine and infer what stage of operationg its in assumes we know a lot about the rest of the grid than we actually do.

Ground observations of the wind are not reliable indications of wind at high elevation.  That laminar flow gradient that we former fluid-dynamics students remember is a statistical average shape.  If I get anywhere near the lee of a building or a tree my perception of the wind speed and direction is strongly affected.  So standing near a wind turbine and guessing why it's spinning while you feel naught but a breeze is no indication of much at all.

Politics, sadly, uses people's sentimentality to get what it wants.  The current fad is to "go green" and wind turbines really are the poster child of the movement.  So if you see a new wind farm in Alabama, it likely is politicians trying to score points by backing a project doomed to fail.  If it's North Dakota, there's a real prospect of honest profit.  Every state wants its "fair share" of the renewable business, but the resource is not spread out as fairly.  Even MORE SAD, is that the average voter (any country - there is no america-bashing implied) doesn't know enough to judge the project's success or failure.  So the politician can claim success no matter the outcome, next election.  It's public ignorance that allows bad WT's to keep selling, and taxpayers to keep footing the bill for pork-barrel projects (wind or otherwise).

Well, there's my brain-dump.  Personally I don't get judgemental about all  wind energy just because of a few poorly-done installations.  I live close to some successes and some failures.  The successful WT's are suited to their task and site they are on.  The failures are the mis-matches.

 

Steven Fahey, CET

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