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When to move on?

When to move on?

When to move on?

(OP)
I want to preface this question by stating that I love my job, and the company I work for.  I don't have someone looking over my shoulder asking what I'm doing constantly.

That being said, I've been with the company for 3.5 years and there was a 7.5% pay cut across the board about six months ago.  I'm not sure exactly why as I haven't seen my hours drop off at all.  I'm consistently putting in 44-48 hours per week at the office (I drive 10 hours a week - an hour one way).  It leaves little time for family, and I'm starting to become disillusioned (did I even use that word properly?  I think so).  I'll be sitting for the PE soon enough, and when I've passed it I'll be making a LOT less money than I expected to be making at that point in my career.  Right now I'm making about what I would expect a fresh grad to come in at.  

How are most other offices?  I would appreciate input from everyone, but especially structural guys.  Do you breathe down your employees necks?  Does your boss look over your shoulder constantly asking for stuff?  How many hours do you typically work in a week?  I know a little extra effort is needed sometimes, but to consistently work 45 hours for 40 hours of pay (a low scale for 40 hours on top of that) gets to be a drag.

I know I sound like I'm whining, but I feel much better now!!

RE: When to move on?

I am not sure about other structural engineering companies, but the company I work for has been on 32 hour workweeks since April.  Many of the structural engineering companies in the area have the same issues.  I am now back full-time (40+ hours per week), but that is only because I am working on a project with a short time frame.

In April, I passed the PE and I have not received a raise yet, but with the economy and knowing friends in engineering that have been unemployed for over a year, I am happy to have a full-time job that pays better than unemployment.  Now when the economy turns around for us, I expect I should be compensated for the added responsibility of having a PE license.

Currently, I spend about as much time per week in the car as you, StrlEIT; a little less than 10 hours per week.  It does affect my personal life, as my wife and I would like to start a family.  We want to be closer to work and closer to family before we start a family, though.

Everyone talks salary and I feel that engineers should be paid for their talents, I also really enjoy my work (most days at least) and would probably do it for less than I am paid now.  Now don't get me wrong (or tell my employer), I like making money, but you need to enjoy the work as well as the workplace.  For almost 6 months, I worked at a company where I hated going to work everyday.  My supervisor and I did not see eye to eye and that led to many arguments and ultimately my dismissal from the company.  Being let go was the best thing that happened to me.  

Well, I probably rambled on too much, but I do hope it helps, StrlEIT.  Sometimes I find just ranting to a fellow engineer really helps me feel better.

JWB

RE: When to move on?

I am a structural engineer.  For me, it comes down to priorities.  You say you love your job and your company.  To me, that's quite a lot. I love my company, but I think I could earn more money elsewhere.  But for me, I am satisfied with my pay because I love my company.

I wasn't always happy.  I now know in my heart that my work ethic wasn't good.  Once I really started enjoying my work, I became a better engineer and began getting compensated more appropriately.  How is your work ethic?  Be honest.  

I don't know where you live, but a pay cut is not unheard of in this economy.  Apparently you are on a fixed salary.  I once worked for one company like that, but in the south I believe that it is typical to pay straight time for overtime for design engineers.  Your situation is standard for large companies that hire mostly project managers, or in plants.  However the salary is usually satisfying.

I have never seen the PE to significantly raise a salary. You'd think so, but it just isn't the case. Get over it.

My job keeps me busy and I always have deadlines and things to do.  I have some people working for me, and I have certain expectations.  I don't think I'm breathing down their necks, but I give them realistic deadlines, usually.  If there is a deadline, then there is no need to breath down someone's neck, just meet the agreed to deadline. My company is good about this.

I work in an office with large projects so we can plan on 40 hour weeks, in general.  When we get behind, we work OT (and get paid for it!).  If you work for a small company with small projects with short time frames, then you are stuck.  I did that for 3 years.  I felt like I was a fireman all the time, but it was the nature of the work I was in- not my employer's fault.  When you were hired, were you told that this was a 40-45 hr/week position?  In general I work whatever the project needs.  Working a 4-9's and a 4 schedule allows me to work a few hours late on Friday's as necessary without a big influence on family life.

Just so you know, I don't recommend this.  But changing jobs has given me some of the largest raises of my career.  After your first few years, salaries can swing wildly among guys with the same level of experience.  Your coworker who graduated the same year as you may get a totally different salary.  Companies will pay to get you from another company.  

I'm not sure if I helped much.  The fact that you say you love your company complicates things.  The company I work for now, and want to retire from, is one that I quit earlier.  There are a number of people here like me who came back to work for a second time.  I feel very fortunate and I would never want to tell you to leave such a company.  However, you don't sound happy.  You love your work, but maybe you don't LOVE your company when all things are considered.

It just occured to me! That fireman position I mention earlier, I felt almost the same as you - the pay (fixed salary with few raises), the hours, and I thought I liked the work. I now know what I would do if I were you but you have to come to that decision on your own.

Good Luck!

RE: When to move on?

If there is a better option out there for you, then why not explore.  I find it very unacceptable that they slashed your pay and you are still putting in 45 hours of work a week.

Unless you can foresee a long term benefit for sticking it out with this company, why not go ahead test the market?

RE: When to move on?

I think most engineers find that it is unusual to get really large increments in pay once they are part of the furniture and have hit about 30 if they stay in the same job (up to 30ish you should be getting large annual increments as you hopefully rapidly from being a total noob).

So you either move into a more senior position in your present company, or move elsewhere.

I don't know what to do about 45 hour weeks, perhaps a bit of backbone might be required, obviously if you do it without complaining week on week then it will continue. Nice for them, not so hot for you.

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: When to move on?

Whilst this is a bit of a generalisation most employees or companies that constantly have someone breathing down their necks do so because they fail to deliver.

All most employers and customers want is something delivered on time on budget to an acceptable standard with the minimum amount of fuss. If that is done there is no good reason to be on anyone's back.

With regard to the pay cut and no drop in hours, maybe I can shed some light on that. We have seen our charge out rate drop by about 25% in the last year, we have not done this by choice, it is something we have had to do to still win work and we have had two customers go into administration owning us money we will never see again.

At the end of the day you have to balance the books and many of the overheads are fixed so this leaves two options. You either really scale down the business lay off people and reduce overheads, move to cheaper premises etc or you give EVERYONE a pay cut and work the same hours or even longer hours, to reduce pay and hours would simply send the company out of business. Sure it sucks but what other options are there?

With regard to the travelling time well really that is your choice, whilst I am sure there are very good reasons for living an hour away from work, great location, close to family, good schools etc it remains your choice. Maybe the company would allow you to work from home one or two days a week or put in four 11 hour shifts and have a long weekend?

At the end of the day we all do what we do and where we do it for a variety of reasons and we are all free to walk away to pastures new. Only you can decide what is best for you.
 

RE: When to move on?

(OP)
Thanks for the input, guys.  I appreciate it!

RE: When to move on?

Based on your replies to this thread http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=252093&page=1  Money shouldn't be an issue right?  If you've changed your mind, then I'd start looking around so you can actually get a return on your educational investment.

45 hours is typical.  I dont know of any structural firm working bare 40's...only the corp of engineers.  Most places I know are pushing 50, but nobody complains because they're just happy to have work.  I was just at the ACI convention in New Orleans and the general consensus is that commercial building has nearly stopped.

I got about 20k raise for SEI, SEII.  If they dont give you any raise for licensure, IMHO would be a game ender for me and time to move on.

 

RE: When to move on?

StructuralEIT,
I hate to sound like old man river, but you sound like me a few years ago. I was at a company for 4 years they were good to me. Then I got an offer from another company, a few more $$$$, and I was a bit disillusioned (had just come off a 4 month stretch of 60-80hr week). So i moved on, to the better paying job, I enjoyed this place until the GFC, when they let 60% of the staff go. I got to stay but worked my ass off, and had to take on a few other people old jobs, when i got to site there were issues with safety, and I decided to quite because my boss wouldn't back me up on a few things. Turns out that I'm a bad judge of employers and I know for certain that my old boss would have backed me to the hilt. Thus the moral of the storey is, you can't buy good management, and if they are good managers they will be open to discussing you pay.  

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

RE: When to move on?

StructuralEIT,

My company pays me overtime when I work beyond 40 hours. Most engineers aren't that lucky, but keep that in mind when you work an additional 5 or 10 hours for free.

The government doesn't pay you OT, but allows you to bank the OT as vacation time so you can use it later.

RE: When to move on?

When the pay gets cut, when to move on is, "As soon as possible".  In the meantime, you need to get a couple of things clear, very CLEAR.  You should know the exact reason your pay was cut, clearly seeing the evidence in billing or stock prices, etc. and agree that such an extreme measure was appropriate and necessary for the good of all.  You should also know exactly what conditions will precipitate a reinstatement of previous wages and if there will be any prospect of seeing an increase to make up for the cut you're getting now after conditions improve.  If you're agreeable, stay on.  If there is something that doesn't ring true, don't waste any more time there.  Change jobs and/or industry, if you need to.

Listen.  There are many more companies out there than just one that you will love working for.  Maybe even more than your present employer.  Play the field while you can.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: When to move on?

(OP)
Just to address a couple things mentioned in the post.  

1)  My work ethic is very good.  

2)  My employment letter stated my slalary and "approximately 40 hours per week".
3)  I don't have anyone breathing down my neck
4)  I realize the commute is my decision

Regarding 1) - I've never had this brought up as an issue to me, and I don't believe it's a problem at all.

Regarding 2) - To me, "approximately 40 hours per week" doesn't mean "45 hours every week".

Regarding 3) - I love this part of the job.  It seems to be true in most offices, but that was a concern I had regarding moving because I haven't worked for any other engineering firms.

Regarding 4) - I recognize this as my decision, and it hasn't become an issue until reccently.  That, on its own, would never cause me to leave.  When I combine it with consistent 45 hour workweeks, and a pay cut, it makes me think twice.

Just a couple other things.  When I said that I'll be making much less when I get a PE than I expected to be making, I wasn't implying that a PE should get me a huge raise.  All I meant is that I would have 4 years of raises.  As it stand, I'll have 2 years of raises, 1 year of a cut, and 1 year of nothing.  That essentially amounts to less than a single raise over 4 years.  Believe me when I say that it's important to love your job.  I also am not in this just for money.  That being said, I do want to be appropriately compensated.

RE: When to move on?

I have been a structural engineer for a long time and have made 6 job changes over that time.  3 of them were for good salary increases, 1 was a forced "early retirement" due to a corporate takeover downsizing (can't live on $10,500/yr), and 2 were to get out of negative downward trending environments.

I have been both salaried and hourly.  Some companies pay OT after 40 and another was after 42.  In both cases where I was strictly salaried, I always felt that I was being abused.  If you are conscientious and do your job and meet your deadlines - you are rewarded with more work.  Because of being with consultants, I kept track of my time and know that I was averaging well over 50 hours per week.

Meanwhile some of your contemporaries make plans for every weekend, can't meet schedules, etc. and they continue to get by with 40 +/- hours per week.  When raises came, there was little or no difference in the increases doled out.
  
Dividing the year-end bonus by your extra hours always showed me what I was really worth to them - not much!

My preference is hourly for those reasons.  I have no problem putting in extra time when it is needed, but I want to be compensated for it.  As was stated above - now is not a good time.  We are also on reduced hours and coming into this time of year with no major projects does not bode well for the future.

Good Luck with your decision.  It was never easy - but when it is your choice rather than theirs it is somewhat more palatable.

GJC
 

RE: When to move on?

If you work for a place that bills clients by the hour, 7.5% decrease in pay means (in my opinion) I work 7.5% fewer hours.

Unless the company changed the billing rate (unlikely), there shouldn't be a reason to decrease your pay if you are still charging the same number of billable hours to the customer. Concerns about lack of business in the future isn't a good reason to cut pay today (again, in my opinion.)

RE: When to move on?

I was just checking my history of pay rises.

When I switched companies I got 30%, 0% +a car, 30%-car, 21%+car

Needless to say my pay rises while staying with a company were nothing like that, tho to be fair my average raise has been 4.5% for the last 10 years (that surprised me, ain't compound interest grand?) while practically sitting in the same seat.

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: When to move on?

There are a lot of companies that are using the present economy as an excuse to readjust their bottom lines, so to speak.  If you are at a firm that is actually staying busy, that should not be an excuse, as one of the previous posters mentioned.

It all comes down to doing what you feel is the right thing.  Biginch is right though, they should have the seeds to come out and say exactly WHY your pay was cut, and not just a lame "pin it on the economy".  

Good luck, it's a tough spot to be in and I wish you well.

RE: When to move on?

(OP)
We had a meeting about it a while back and one of the principals said that it had to do with getting certain "ratios" back in line with what the banks want to see.

RE: When to move on?

They probably want to get the debt-to-equity under 1.

Which means that they're going to bank more cash, so they can say "See! We can pay down our debt, if we go bankrupt!"

So the bank will be able to take more of a risk on them.

Yours isn't a publicly traded company, is it StructuralEIT?

V

RE: When to move on?

(OP)
It's not publicly held.  It also does very well financially (as far as I can tell, anyway).  I mean, I know what my charge out rates are, and it's about 3.5x my salary.

RE: When to move on?

If your charge out rates were that before you got the pay cut the you were sc--ed. I would think that 3.5 is heigher than most.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: When to move on?

Mine is currently 5, I think 3 is the norm.   

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

RE: When to move on?

While I'm happy to believe your employers are a$$holes, I can think of one vaguely reasonable reason for pay cut.

Maybe they are having trouble charging out at their usual rate, if there's more competition are they having to drop what they charge?

However, if their charge our rate hasn't changed the argument that they are screwing you seems stronger.

We had a pay cut for a while, and certainly no across the board raises this year, but our sales were down.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: When to move on?

(OP)
I can't say for sure, but I don't believe our charge out rates have changed.  The structural side of our firm works with very prestigious architects, and we rarely get work that we "bid" on.  If one of the architects that we work for gets a job and we have the ability to handle the workload, we get the job.  We have a similar relationship with several universities, where we are the SER, regardless of who is doing the work or who the architect is.  This is true because of the quality of service that we provide.

That being said, we have a few other "sides" of the company that aren't doing as well.  One of the owners loves design/build and is trying to start up a construction company within the firm.  I think we may be subsidizing (some of) these other branches of the company.

Either way, my biggest concern with moving is how different offices can be.  I feel pretty confident that I could get a 20% raise pretty easily by moving, but I'm most scared of having some crazy boss always looking over my shoulder, or not getting the professional development that I get now, or not having the freedoms that I have now (this last part is mostly related to making things like spreadsheets that are not job-specific provided I am keeping on top of my work).    

RE: When to move on?

SEIT...I've read your posts in a variety of forums and they lead me to believe you have your head screwed on right.  Technically, you're very proficient.  Your solutions are generally well constructed and technically correct.  It's obvious you enjoy your work.

That being said, you need to take care of yourself as well.  Greg nailed it (as usual). You're wallpaper now.  They'll take you for granted.  

Explore your options.  Don't leave unless you really find something better, since you're satisfied there.

You are experiencing salary compression.  Talk to them honestly about it.  

I assume they know your value.  Tell them that if you left and they hired a new engineer at your salary, they would be behind.  It will cost them from $10,000 to $25,000 to hire a new engineer.  Have them put that into your salary and you and the company are ahead.

Good luck.

RE: When to move on?

SEIT,

Just a thought, have you considered keeping the job, but moving closer?  I know there are a lot issues here, like where your spouse works,  where your kids go to school etc.  But if you are driving an hour to work that's a lot of money in gas and time with the family lost.  I have a half hour drive to work and I've thought about moving closer.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

RE: When to move on?

I agree with Kirby.  It doesn't sound like it's the job that is the problem, but it's your work/life balance.  With the job market the way it is, now isn't the best time to be looking.  So, looking at options to fix the balance might be a better idea than quitting; i.e. working from home a couple days, maybe 4 10s or 12s instead of 5 8s or 10s?

RE: When to move on?

Just like Ron observed, you are very proficient. Have you considered doing freelance in your free time?. You will feel better with your knowledge and there will be  money coming in.

You are still luckier than me, I have an egomaniac boss who refuses to credit anyone with anything including pay, and you are not allowed to talk pay. Problem is I love my job and choose to ignore the boss. a few freelancing helped a bit.


respects
ijr

RE: When to move on?

(OP)
Ron-
Thanks for your kind words - it's much appreciated.

Kirby-
I've considered moving closer, but we had a hard time trying to sell our house before.  On top of that, my oldest son would not like to move right now as he just started middle school.  My daughters wouldn't care, neither of them are in school yet.

Japher-
I might talk to them about working from home a day a week.  Working 4 - 12's isn't an option.  Our clients expect us to be available when they need us.  Being out a day a week would not be a good thing.

IJR-
Don't you need to be licensed to do freelance work?  I'm only an EIT right now.  I can't take the PE exam until next October, and I'm seriously considering waiting until April of 2011 to take the new, 16 hour SE exam.

RE: When to move on?

Don't most firms not allow you to freelance/moonlight?
 

RE: When to move on?

"Don't most firms not allow you to freelance/moonlight?"

Unless you have signed a contract stating as much I would assume that working freelance is OK.

It's unreasonable to require salary sacrifice for the good of the company, and also limit the opportunity for you to make a decent income.

As to moving house for the sake of a low paid job; the cost of selling, buying and then moving will be lost, with no opportunity to recoupe except for reduced travel cost.
I know you will have the extra time, but you would be better off insisting on working the 'about 40 hrs'.

Living in a city/country where structural engineers are still in demand, it is difficult to appreciate the position that you are in. If they tried that stuff on me I'd be out the door straight into another job.
 

RE: When to move on?

StructuralEIT -

It's easy to see you're struggling with this - let me add one thing.  Working for high profile Architects on what are probably great projects would always have been my dream job.

2 of my jobs were with small consultants that worked for Architects and I worked on many neat buildings.  With a design-build industrial contractor I worked on some large structures but the buildings were blah.  With a corporate engineering group I got to work on several greenfield plants and did the engineering (site civil and structural), quasi-architectural design, construction management, etc. which was very rewarding.  

There have been 3 jobs in 9 years since being downsized out of the corporate engineering group and the quality of the projects has mostly been mundane industrial additions and modifications.

Lots of jobs will help pay the bills, but being part of design teams on great buildings was and will always be the highlight of my career.


PS:  A billing rate of 3.5 x's is way higher than anywhere I have been (2.25 to 2.75).  If that is a flat mark-up for everyone - OK.  If you are lumped into groups that are billed by job description, i.e. "project design engineer" etc., then you are underpaid.

GJC
 

RE: When to move on?

If an engineer moonlights and something breaks, his company may be liable, that is why you should check with them to make sure it is ok. This does not need to be on a project by project basis.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: When to move on?

SEIT...Moonlighting should wait until you are licensed. I have no doubt you'll nail the exam....take the general PE or SE1 first...you can always do the full Structural later...just get licensed...then you have a marketable attribute that doesn't require significant discussion or selling.

When you decide to moonlight, you have to tell your employer.  If they do not allow moonlighting, then you have to decide...give it up or leave.

I did moonlighting throughout my tenure with a major international engineering firm...it was a condition of the acquisition of my small specialty firm by the "big boys"...I didn't compete with my employer...this was a single client that I had maintained for many years and they would not sign the required contracts of the larger corporation...yet they were willing to indemnify me as a single practitioner...I was gratified by their action...they remain a very favored client after 25 years.

Interestingly enough, when I had been back with the large international firm for about 10 years (moonlighting all that time), someone within the firm submitted one of my structural calculation packages to the corporate office, telling them that I was moonlighting!  Well, since the corporate office already knew that, it was a "so what" event!  The submitters were trying to get me fired...it didn't work.  At that time I was a vice-president and senior principal within the firm.  It pissed off the submitter that he/she couldn't get me fired for their "revelation".  

My point is simply...be careful with moonlighting...full disclosure is necessary and the ethical thing to do.

RE: When to move on?

PeterStock,

First of all, if a person moonlights on the side, their primary employer does not become liable in the United States. If you know of a incident where this wasn't the case, please post a link or cite a case here.

The employer being responsible for the employee's actions at home is a common theme here on eng-tips.com, but I've never read of a case where this was true.

Ron,

Moonlight should wait until the person is licensed only if the engineer is moonlighting in something that requires a professional engineer's license. A lot of engineers do AutoCAD drafting or solid modeling work in the evenings, and no license is required for this. Giving engineering advice to a client obviously requires a license, but there is lots of engineering-related work that doesn't fall under the scope of an engineer's license.

RE: When to move on?

By the way, my statement about the employer not assuming liability for moonlighting only applies if the employee uses no company resources in his moonlighting activities. To me, that is the only fair way of doing it. As long as what you do on your own time doesn't use the company resources, I don't see how they can assume liability for your work.

RE: When to move on?

photoengineer...a moonlighting employee does not have to use a company's resources to have them pulled into a lawsuit.  If the services offered by the moonlighting employee are similar to those offered by the firm, there can be liability by association, thus exposing the firm to liability from a non-client, particularly if the firm knows of the moonlighting activities and condones them.

You're right that non-engineering work can be done without licensing and often with little or no risk.  You still have to be careful and know exactly how your state defines "engineering works".  Some states define engineering broadly, others more narrowly.  Many engineers erroneously believe that only designs with plans constitute engineering that must be signed and sealed.  Far, far from the truth.  Almost all states define engineering as including statements made in a public realm, recommendations given on structures or construction, evaluations of construction, structures, pavements, or materials, or opinions of same as engineering works.  There's sometimes a fine line between CAD and engineering design.

RE: When to move on?

(OP)
Moonlighting is definitely not even a consideration without a license.

RE: When to move on?

SEIT, I am interested and so pls allow me to punch in some experience.

Since no freelancing possible, money is out for now, so lets make sure you dont wear yourself out, as you buy time.

Relegate some work to others, IF POSSIBLE.

Your boss or whoever superior might temporarily find it weird at first, but over time you will be accepted so.

It works for me. I usually do only some jobs(I refrain to say important ones, but sometimes it works like that), politely relegate some to others. At least you will have time for family. Your value in the company might even go up a bit.

On a more general scale, try to tune yourself a bit. And with that clear brain you have, should be easy.

Some smart old brain(an economist) said, "The more a worker churns out products, the cheaper he/she gets".

Sorry if this is out of tune.

respects
ijr


 

RE: When to move on?

I think your billout rate tells a lot of a mostly hidden story.  That rate range is quite high.  I would think that, if it is apparently due to high costs other than employee salaries, the owners should take a good hard look at reducing those rather than trying to run off their best employees.  You might offer to help them in their effort to reduce those costs by looking for office space deals closer to your home.  Invite a commercial space broker in to see the CEO.  Tell him you've found somebody better than a banker to talk to and he'll be there at 12:30.  Just a proactive idea to think about.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: When to move on?

Regarding breathing down necks, that may be more a matter of individual managers' styles than corporate policy.  Which means that it can change with a change in management.  I'm all for considering corporate culture when choosing a job, but keep in mind that the culture can shift unpleasantly with no warning.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: When to move on?

(OP)
Maybe it's a little more dire than I thought.  A very senior engineer was recently let go.  Maybe I will just be thankful I have a job right now and not complain.  How do you get through these times in your career?  It's very deflating, and makes you less eager to come into the office.

RE: When to move on?

All you can do is be honest with yourself.  Do you work as hard as you should?  Do you do a good job that you are proud of?  Are you a decent human being?  If you can answer Yes to these simple questions without hesitation, then there is nothing to worry about.  People are let go for a variety of reasons all the time, not just performance or salary cap.  Sometimes things are personal.  You shouldn't stress over things that you have no control over.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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RE: When to move on?

Be awesome at your job, people come people go (for many different reasons); main thing is to know what you want and where you want to be. I have never heard of a company firing a person who makes then good money or works hard, unless that person insulted the boss by calling his wife a ****.

Don't be afraid to talk to your manger about money or why this guy was let go, truth of the matter is you just became more valuable to them. If you were like the guy next to me you would go into the boss and ask for a raise. Mind you he asks for one every month or so, reminds me of Homer Simpson every now and then, but truth be told every second time someone leaves he gets a raise.  

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that they like it

RE: When to move on?

rowing,  Although I like your suggestion very much that the value of his hand has been increased by the recent layoff, its not always true.  Unfortunately I have seen many very good people go before me, not by any means because I was the better, just because I still had some trivial job to finish on a still billable project and the other guy had finished his current assignments.  The value of the unfinished hand is always relative to the size of the pot and the number of cards still left in the deck.  Evaluate carefully, but only play that game with aces up your sleeve, which BTW count at tripple the fairly delt value.
smile

----
Aces.  Nothing wrong with knowing your current market potential ... and keeping in touch with your favorite head hunter on a regular basis isn't a sign of disloyalty to everybody, especially to yourself and family.  Maybe its just me, but I've always found corporate loyalty to be a one-way street.  My feelings, if you want loyalty, get a dog.

So I work projects, not for companies per say.  Now, pink slips are a regular occurrence.  In fact I often get a pink slip before anyone else.  Since I'm paid more than the project manager, he's usually out to pick me off.  The upside of getting pink slips on a regular basis is that they FORCE you to place your needs first and to keep evaluating your current market position every time you get one.  What I've found is that, if you've stayed at market value and kept your piggy bank topped off, you don't need to worry about taking a few months off between jobs.  In fact, it can be the best time for a vacation.  Nothing gets you a new job like a fresh white shirt and a new tan.   

Anyway, the net result has been that only one time in 34 years have I ever had to take a job with less pay at a crap company (1986 oil $6.00/BBL FOB Ras Tanura) I stayed 1 year then raised the pot.  

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: When to move on?

People who believe their company is loyal to them are disillusioned.  I have seem some people leave here while the bosses have offered them more money.  However, when they attempted to come back, it's at a fraction of their previous status.  That being said, when times are tough it's not always the short timers and cheap labor that's let go. When we released three of our 34 people earlier this year, they had a combined 80+ years of experience at our company, the longest being a 35+ year engineer.  Four months later, he was contracted on one or two of the projects he had worked on because no one could find his notes.
 

drawn to design, designed to draw

RE: When to move on?

Waides,

that is been my experience as well, no need to get too angry about it, just run your professional life like, I dunno a PROFESSIONAL.

I hope the 35+ engineer raked them over the coals (a billing rate +$120) and had his own insurance for that contract job.  

I know I would have.
 

this message has been approved for citizen to elect kepharda 2008

RE: When to move on?

SEIT,
I am in the same position as you are. I love my job and the people who I work with. But I sometimes feel I am being taken for granted because I don't complain or grudge about putting the extra hours or taking the initiative to complete someone else's work during a deadline.

However, I feel that all this extra work (I average anywhere between 45-50 hours) is not being appreciated either with a raise or a bonus. It will be 2 years since we all got a raise. I know the dire straits of this economy, but......

RE: When to move on?

Slickdeals, if you are not getting paid extra for the extra time, update the resume and start looking. You are being taken advantage of.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: When to move on?

Document all time spent.  Just because you may be classed as exempt does not necessarily mean you cannot collect on overtime worked.  If extra hours are the routine and they are needed to complete your assigned work, in many places you have a right to be paid for that overtime, yes, even if you are exempt.  If that applies to you, sue for payment when you leave.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: When to move on?

Have a chat with your boss slickdeals, don't be scared to ask when the next raise is coming? open up some communication, most directors or associates are dealing in money all day so are very comfortable talking about money, you need to be too.  

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that they like it

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