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CE Wiring

CE Wiring

CE Wiring

(OP)
I am banging my head against the wall trying to find someone in my area that would be interested in making some money wiring up lamps in the European Standard - CE Certified. I have spoke to several labs and they will simply not give me the name of someone they have certified. They want us to go through the certification process and wiring lamps is simply not our business.If you could help me find someone, if you could it would be most appreciated.

Thank you,

Jason

RE: CE Wiring

You might want to let people know where your "area" is.  

Also, some information on what you mean by "lamp" might be helpful.  
 

RE: CE Wiring

Are you asking if someone who currently makes CE certified "lamps" will build your in-house designed product and give you a document of conformancy/CE marking simply because they hold CE marks on their similar products?  

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
I am located in Dallas Texas. Needing CE (European Standarded) Certified wiring install.

Thank you,

Jason

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
Let me be a little more clear. I work for a import company. We buy and sell some lamps. We are exploring the European market, but must first find someone here in the region that has the proper certification to do so. For USA it is UL Certification, Canada CL, but for many European contries it requires a CE Certified stamp. We have our factories pre-wiring using UL Standards for our lamps currently, since most the lamps do not leave the USA. Our factory does not have the certification for CE, so we must find someone in this region to take the lamp from UL to CE standards, so we can export the lamp to Europe. I have done some reading on this - actually hours trying to hunt down someone in the area and much reading. We seem to have many test labs in the area, but they will not disclose who they have certified. They want me to bring them money and the business to this market simply does not justifiy the cost of getting certified outselves. Wiring is not our niche, so we leave that up to the professionals who have there documentation in place. Hope this help and please help!

Thank you,

Jason

RE: CE Wiring

Quote:

...in this region...

And this would be where?  

(There is a reason this is called the WORLD WIDE web)

 

RE: CE Wiring

Your positon is still quite unclear to me.

One doesn't need to be 'certified' to declare a product they manufacture conforms to the applicable directives.

Does your company actually manufacture the products; or simply import them?

If you import the goods, you may have work to do in persuading the manufacturer to invest in compliance if they don't already export it to Europe; unless you have enough bang as a buyer.

If what you mean is, the return from the market won't justify getting certification for your product, then don't do it.

If you manufacture the goods, you will have to invest in either having a consultancy advise you, or investing your own effort; and in addition any compulsory assessments by approved bodies if they apply. The product needs to be certified.

http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/sectors/sustainability/regulations/cemark/page11646.html

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ce+mark

You may want to investigate the Low Voltage Directive. This is not my field and neither are International standards, but look for harmonised standards; you may find the product should, by implication, comply.

RE: CE Wiring

I'm not an expert on this, but I saw something that seemed to indicate that the CE mark included much more than just wiring. For example, products (such as table or floor lamps) shouldn't topple over when subjected to a certain degree of tilt.  

RE: CE Wiring

Consider a European subscontractor. With the present exchange rates and the general shortage of work I would think you could find a company familiar with European regulations to work with. At risk of stating the obvious, it might be easiest with a UK subcontractor because the language problem is relatively small.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
To DPC: I answered the question the first time, sorry if you did not notice, but I am located in Dallas TX.

To Eng1ne: I do understand that our company does not need to be certified, we can even self-certify, but we simply do not want to do any wiring at our facility. As of now we only have a few lamps that need the CE (European Wiring). There are people out there that wiring in the European standard. We found one in Atlanta, but we would prefer to keep the business in Texas to save on freight cost or in closer states for that matter.

ScottUK: That would make the most sense, but we can not ask our factory to go through the certification process without knowing what kind of business it will bring.
 

RE: CE Wiring

Has anyone thought to check if the UL wiring currently in place satisfies the CE requirements?  If so, self-certify and be done with it.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
In some parts of Europe I hear UL is accepted in some areas. Like I said before, someone else can get self-certify and wire for us, but our company does not want to have that liability. I appreciate the feedback though.  

RE: CE Wiring

As Macgyvers and I said earlier, look at harmonised standards. You may find the UL standards that they currently adhere to already comply with CE standards, in the majority of aspects. You will still need invest a bit of time.

"... we can not ask our factory to go through the certification process without knowing what kind of business it will bring."

You will have to pay someone and go through certification regardless of where you or they are in the world if you want to export to Europe. I would be examining the market before I even considered CE certification. You need to find out what business it will bring first!

Your reluctance and scepticism about certification and the market seem to provoke a 'quit while you're not behind' response!

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
Eng1ne: We will not have to pay someone to go through the certification process if they have already have been certified or have self-certified.


I do not know anything about harmonised standards, but I will do some research on it here shortly.

export.gov - will show you what countries require what markings)

RE: CE Wiring

Global,

I think you're misunderstanding some of our posts.  By "harmonised" standards, we mean if you're currently UL stamped, everything you need to check against to be CE-compliant may have already been taken care of by the simple fact that the design meets UL standards (therefore, the two standards are in harmony as far as your specific design is concerned).

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
Even if UL Standards were acceptable, we need someone certified or self-certified to put their branding and mark the lamp with the CE Marking in order to export it to our client. The client we are working with is requiring it, just as we require the UL stamp from our vendors. Thank you for trying to help.

Simply put - we need someone who is CE Certified or self-certified that would like to take this stuff on.

I have heard that some UL marked items are accepted, but not for the country we are trying to get the lamp to.  

RE: CE Wiring

"someone certified or self-certified" - no entity, individual or company is 'CE certified', the products they manufacture are.

"to put their branding and mark the lamp with the CE Marking in order to export it to our client." - you will make a lamp, or import a lamp, give it to another company so they can write "CE" on it and hand it back to you with a declaration of conformity?

Simply put - we need someone who is CE Certified or self-certified that would like to take this stuff on." - you also said: "To Eng1ne: I do understand that our company does not need to be certified, we can even self-certify."

Who makes the lamps? Who wires the lamps? Who is responsible for having the lamps certified to UL standards?

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
eng1ne: "to put their branding and mark the lamp with the CE Marking in order to export it to our client." - you will make a lamp, or import a lamp, give it to another company so they can write "CE" on it and hand it back to you with a declaration of conformity?

Global: That is correct! We have lamps wired overseas in the factory or we have someone local wire for our UL and CL markets. The company would need to be able to take it from UL to CE or the lamp will come with no wiring period and the company will need to be able to wire it (CE), place a CE marking, and give a copy of their certificate of conformity - that company will be responsible for anything that could come from a wiring related issue.

I know this is an easy process, but the business owners simply do not want to deal with any libility that could stem from a bad lamp or I woudl have laid this to sleep already. Though about doing it on the side, but conflict of interest.

eng1ne: Who makes the lamps? Who wires the lamps? Who is responsible for having the lamps certified to UL standards?

Global: The factories overseas or the Dallas local that does our UL and CL, both handle all of this.

I may just need to start a site and call it "CE Wiring for you". Maybe one day I might make it big off of this mess..:)

Jason


 
 
 

RE: CE Wiring

I'm still not sure whether 'the factories' are part of your company. Although I'm starting to get a better picture.

At what point does your company receive the lamps? As raw material, manufactured with no wiring, or as a workable lamp to relevant standards?

Someone might be able to clarify, but I'm not sure about separate companies declaring conformity to only a bit of a product.

By the way, the whole lamp needs to be certified CE, not just the wires? Like VE1BLL mentioned, it may possibly be subject to tilt tests for example.

I think you need to contact a consultant...

RE: CE Wiring

CE mark applies to the overall assembly and takes in all manner of EU Directives depending on what the product is.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: CE Wiring

Agree with Scotty.
CE marking indicates that you meet the specific standards that apply to that specific product and therefore you can export into the countries under the CE banner. Teddy bears sold into Europe need to carry the "CE" mark. It means they comply with the Toy Directive.
Lamps will fall under the LV Directive and all the standards relating to that directive. It depends what your lamp is going to do. If your lamp includes a SMPS or dimmer switch, as an example, then it will also need to comply with the EMC Directive. If your lamp is designed for underwater use or outside use then there will be standards that specify Ingress Protection (IP) etc.
If your lamp is a table lamp then also remember that in EU there are numerous plug types that determine the country. IN the UK you will require fuses in your plugs..etc.
Maybe contact this lot: http://www.elcfed.org/
no idea if they can help but mr.google brought them up first.
 

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
Ozmosis: You seem to be very knowledgable about this subject. Would you happen to have any leads on where I can send some lamps to be wired for export, someone that has the means of wiring and tagging our products according to standards? My goal is to find someone in this region (Dallas, TX). Your feedback is most appreciated!

 

RE: CE Wiring

OP started thread with "...banging my head against the wall...".

 

RE: CE Wiring

A minute or two with Google leads to this:

ACC Global Compliance - Dallas, TX

Company Profile: CE marking service for machines exported to Europe, in compliance with safety requirements established by the European Union. Services include on site electrical, EMC & EMI testing, on site technical & engineering assistance, documentation review & verification, design review, & CE type...

Good luck.

RE: CE Wiring

Be prepared to have to deal with more than just the wiring! Follow VE1BLL's lead; there is little more we can help you with!

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
VE1BLL: I tried ACC Global Compliance (deals with certifying machines) and they did not have any information for me. The guy I spoke with said surely there is someone in the region and suggested me do a lot of things that I have already done.  
I did get in touch with a lamp repair company in Austin and sent them over some links to see if they are interested in getting the certification, so we can send them lamps to get ready for export. She seemed very interested and said she has a repair lady that has worked on European lighting with 6 years of experience. Slowly, but surely, I think I am getting somewhere. The hidden trade it seems...
 

RE: CE Wiring

Quote (globalviews):

I did get in touch with a lamp repair company in Austin and sent them over some links to see if they are interested in getting the certification...
If companies are self-certified when it comes to CE, what exactly do you think they're going to do?

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
This link will best explain how to get the certification. It is the best website that I found that explains how to get to get certified or self-certify.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_mark
 

RE: CE Wiring

Kind of defeats the purpose to "certify" a company if you're allowed to self-certify.

Self-certification must mean something different in my part of the world...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
I know - the whole deal is odd to me as well, but it is what it is I guess. It seems that what you do is self-certify by creating a 1 page Declaration of Conformity, showing how the requirements are being meet. It would be the option of the person doing the certifying to have a third party lab test the product if they feel necessary. If a third party lab tests the product - they put together a technical file to hold on the CE Marker's behalf incase anything stems from a defective product. The CE Marker will be the responsible party, but they will have proof to back up what they were doing was to the best of their knowledge - the correct way to do it. That link I showed you should help make sense of it for you if decide you are interested in finding out more information on this subject. I know it is odd, but I guess that is the way Europeans would like to do things. For what I understand based on what I have read on the subject - implementing this process has been a big help over there.  

RE: CE Wiring

"It would be the option of the person doing the certifying to have a third party lab test the product if they feel necessary." - some tests aren't optional!

What do you now plan to do?

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
I have a company in Austin that seems interested in taking this on. She has a lady that has wired chandeliers for export to Europe and this something they seem to want to dabble in. I found another guy in Austin that speaks with a European accent that is also interested in looking into doing this for us. He owns a lamp business in Austin. I do feel like I am finally getting somewhere on this.

RE: CE Wiring

Let us know how you get on!

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
Will do - thank you for your assistance with this mess. Have a great rest of the day!

RE: CE Wiring

For putting products on the market in Europe, don't forget RoHS, that's just as important as CE (though easier to certify).

Benta.
 

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
What is RoHS?  

RE: CE Wiring

^^ What he said... Twice!

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
RoHS talks about hazardous substances within the electrical equipment. I feel as long as we are not senting the items with bulbs in them - we won't need to worry about RoHS. The components of lamps are pretty basic and only hazardous if wired incorrectly.  

RE: CE Wiring

Are you soldering any connections?  If so, your solder has to be lead-free.  Does any portion of the lamp (wire, metal base, wood trim) contain any substances on the banned list?  If so, you need to change the design.  Think it doesn't?  Think again.  What happens if you use leather as a lamp wrap?  If that leather used cyanide as a bleaching agent, you could run into problems should that ever leach out... has zero to do with the electrical work, but your product has failed RoHS and will be illegal to sell in European countries.

RoHS is a royal PITA, and it typically fails to solve the main problem it was touted to resolve... but it's still the law.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: CE Wiring

You [u]should[/] come across the RoHS directive, as well as the Low Voltage directive and the WEEE directive, just to name a few which deals with the waste of electrical and electronic equipment.

I say should, because these will form part of your declaration of conformity - if you follow the proper routes!

The lamp isn't a 'substance', but like macgyvers said, the lead possibly used in your solder is! Some paints and pigments might include hazardous substances!

The only way you will do this yourself is if you follow the guidance on the authority's website with lots of attention, or employ a consultant!

RE: CE Wiring

You're quite far off the mark with your assumption about what RoHS means.

I think you're quite confused with what CE means too though. Installing some wiring in a "CE approved shop" does not create a CE product. As already mentioned, the completed product is evaluated, not just some of the wires inside.

Dan - isn't there some requirement to provide the means for recycling the product too if applicable? Most likely something with metal and copper would require recycling.
 

RE: CE Wiring

Lionel, perhaps you are thinking of the WEEE directive, Waste of Electrical and Electronic Equipment?

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
Why can I not simply find someone who deals with this aspect of business in this region? I assume at this point it is "most always the manufacture" that has to deal with these regulations and this is something that is not typically outsourced. You all seem to know some of the details about this subject?

Just inquiring - does this apply to your daily business in any way?

Yes, I did read into the RoHS further and I am sure that is another optical we are going to have to hurtle in order to get this aspect of business moving forward - I am less then pleased to say. "I do appreciate the heads up on this added hurtle, sincerly".
 

RE: CE Wiring

RoHS is most definitely a part of my daily business life.  I cannot use leaded solder on anything I wish to ship out of the country (or to California, since they've accepted the majority of the RoHS edicts).  When I use lead-free, I have to be more aware of what is being used, as well as the process used to solder... lead-free solder is a nasty bit that takes special care to make a solid connection, I cannot mix equipment between the two solder types, etc.



Lionel, my recycling "plan" is "Send it back to us and we'll dispose of it for you".  Considering the type of products I produce, I doubt I'll ever receive a single item back.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: CE Wiring

Being in the EU, it is something I am familiar with, though do not encounter very often with respect to consumer goods. I have only thus far certified equipments for use within explosive atmospheres which requires a CE mark.

Most consultancies will offer you a free consultation. No answer or advise on here would be as valuable as those obtained from professional consultants.

Go to the pages below, explain that you have a lamp you wish to certify for export to the EU, and take it from there.

You might find the cost for them to review your manufacturing processes and the final product is not quite as expensive as you'd expect! Then again, it might be astronomical, but there is only one way to find out!

http://complianceinsight.ca/Consulting/FreeConsult.html

http://www.centronsolutions.com/contact.php

http://www.barclay-phelps.com/page8.html

Note though, that these have been pulled out of Google at random.

RE: CE Wiring

I'll give a plug for F-Squared labs in Ohio/Maryland (www.f2labs.com).  Is that close enough to Dallas?  They could probably help with your testing.  They have tested my equipment for Europe and I highly recommend them.  

You also might want to check out this site:  

http://www.cemarking.net/

You can take Hans' free course to get up to speed on CE Marking.  

John D


 

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
John,

I do appreciate the feedback, but Ohio is further then Atlanta and so is Maryland. I have spoke with Han about this as well and he was able to give me a clear understanding, but it still does not help my situation in finding someone to take the lamps and certify.

Thanks again,

Jason

RE: CE Wiring

CE means that the manufacturer or the company that imports the products, declares that the products are in conformatity with all applicable European guidelines. If a company decides (eg by its own measurements) that the product is conform these European regulations, it can put the CE mark on it. These means that the company that puts the CE mark on it, will be liable if failures / accidents occur that were ruled out by the European regulations, and for which the product turns out not to comply. Most of the time 1 one of the obligations is that you need a file in which construction / design is evaluated. Other regulations that are applicable depend on the type of product, but they mainly base on saftey, health and environmental risks. And for a lamp this could be something simple as the risk of getting burned by the hot surface. Further the documentation needs probably to be in the local language.

It is in fact quite simple: If you are confident that you are in compliance with the European rules and regulations, put a CE mark on it. If you are not, then hire a consultant that can tell you exactly which regulations are applicable, or try to find out yourselves at the internet: http://eur-lex.europa.eu You can also find out in which cases a notified body is required (you can recognize these on the CE including a 4 digit number).

In this business case you have to weigh your expected earnings against investing time/money for CE, with keeping in mind the financial risks for not being secure. Penalties for using the CE mark without fullfilling the requirements are high, as it is considered to be economical crime.

It is probably most convenient to contact a European certification institute like KEMA or TuV.

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
Thank you, that was informative. We are not looking to take the risk of backing up the wiring or taking liability for it. That is the sole purpose we are trying to find someone to take care of certifying the product for us.

RE: CE Wiring

You will unfortunately have to if you want to sell into CE land.

You can have someone else build the whole thing but YOU are responsible for making sure it gets built correctly.

Same thing you see with Chinese poison products. The US toy company takes the heat when lead is discovered not the Chinese company. (Though of course heads roll there too.)

Same with this. If you have another company assemble/build your product you must inspect or have the product line watched. You need to make sure they don't switch to cheap dangerous wire or lead based paint after a day, or week, or month, or year.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
What makes you believe what you just stated is true. For what I understand who ever places the CE sticker with their marking on it is liable for the proformance of the product and takes liability for compliance.

RE: CE Wiring

Global, what is not clear to me is your business model here. Do you intend to sell in volume to an importer in the EU? Or do you plan to sell directly to consumers?

There is a reason for these questions. If a product is produced in the EU, the manufacturer has liability and has to sin the declarations of conformance. This is not the case here.

In your case, the company *importing* goods into the EU is legally regarded as the "manufacturer", and he has to sign the DoC's.
Now, not a lot of trade companies like to do this, so they come back to the producer and ask for backup declarations and test reports.
However, if you do have an importer, you might ask him to help finding a test house in Europe, as he will have to sign the documents in the end.

If you are selling directly to consumers (like over the Web), there is an "own use" clause, which means products do not necessarily need to be CE/RoHS/WEEE conform, that's customer's own responsibility.

Best Regards,

Benta.
 

RE: CE Wiring

benta,

I'd certainly be interested in hearing a bit more about this "own use" clause... can you point to any documentation (or sections of the RoHS code) that specify this?

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: CE Wiring

(OP)
Benta,

We only sell to retailers or interior designers. This will likely turn into a mass production thing where we import many lamps (hundreds) and a portion of those will need to be either "wired" or "rewired" for export to Europe.   

RE: CE Wiring

benta,

Your first post on "own use" seemed to suggest the CE compliance was only required if the product was sold to resellers, but not straight to customers.  Obviously this didn't seem correct to me, hence my question.  Reading over the link you sent, those rules apply to equipment to be used "in-house" by employees, not to anything that is sold for profit.

Were you intending otherwise?
 

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

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