Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
(OP)
In some of my posts here some seem to get their knickers in a knot for directly calling something exactly and bluntly what it is rather than sanitising it.
In the code of ethics thread by tctctraining, I just called using market knowledge gained from your employer theft. Let me make it clear, there have been no reactions there to date, but I only just posted there.
A few weeks ago I referred to deliberate inaccuracies on time sheets as fraud. That got a very defensive response about justification that involved denial as part of the justification.
I will try to explain the difference between calling something bluntly, exactly what it is vs whether or not it is justifiable.
A real life example.
All through school I played several codes of Rugby. I mostly played in the front row of the scrum, often as rake or hooker. No sniggering please.
When packed down with both arms interlocked with the props you are very vulnerable to someone who has a loose arm and decides to try to gouge your eyes.
When someone is fouling you in such a way, it is very hard for the referee to detect the offense and you need to suffer or retaliate.
Your four courses of action are to:-
1) Complain to the ref. Almost always totally ineffective and actually encourages an escalation of the fouls on you.
2) Throw you head rapidly up out of the scrum and clast your face as you bring your knee up hard into the opposition players face. You will most likely break the nose of the wrong player on the right team. You may or may not get penalised by the ref.
3) The fingers trying to gouge your eyes often end up in your mouth. You can bite them very and I mean very firmly.
4) Suffer in silence.
The only two effective methods are fouls. Are they justified, Are they ethical.
Years of experience taught me 3) was the most efficient and effective option.
Some people who never had their face mauled while packed down act all discussed, but how can they judge.
To sanitise it is not facing facts squarely.
I learned to call it exactly what it is then decide whether or not it was also justified under the circumstances.
In my opinion, santising things distorts the assessment of justification.
In the code of ethics thread by tctctraining, I just called using market knowledge gained from your employer theft. Let me make it clear, there have been no reactions there to date, but I only just posted there.
A few weeks ago I referred to deliberate inaccuracies on time sheets as fraud. That got a very defensive response about justification that involved denial as part of the justification.
I will try to explain the difference between calling something bluntly, exactly what it is vs whether or not it is justifiable.
A real life example.
All through school I played several codes of Rugby. I mostly played in the front row of the scrum, often as rake or hooker. No sniggering please.
When packed down with both arms interlocked with the props you are very vulnerable to someone who has a loose arm and decides to try to gouge your eyes.
When someone is fouling you in such a way, it is very hard for the referee to detect the offense and you need to suffer or retaliate.
Your four courses of action are to:-
1) Complain to the ref. Almost always totally ineffective and actually encourages an escalation of the fouls on you.
2) Throw you head rapidly up out of the scrum and clast your face as you bring your knee up hard into the opposition players face. You will most likely break the nose of the wrong player on the right team. You may or may not get penalised by the ref.
3) The fingers trying to gouge your eyes often end up in your mouth. You can bite them very and I mean very firmly.
4) Suffer in silence.
The only two effective methods are fouls. Are they justified, Are they ethical.
Years of experience taught me 3) was the most efficient and effective option.
Some people who never had their face mauled while packed down act all discussed, but how can they judge.
To sanitise it is not facing facts squarely.
I learned to call it exactly what it is then decide whether or not it was also justified under the circumstances.
In my opinion, santising things distorts the assessment of justification.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules





RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
Telling the stark truth is much easier, more efficient, and I think more effective than keeping track of whose ox is to be protected and whose ox can be gored at will.
The only caution I would offer is that sometimes, perhaps often, the obvious and easy targets are actually the least deserving of your ire, so some civility, and especially some considered delay, will serve you well.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
Even in real life I get in trouble for "telling it like it is". however when asked "Do you think my ass looks big in this?" I know what to answer
while some might get there knickers in a knot about your comments i think that they are fair and just, weather asked for or not that is another question.
as to how people respond, I think it all depends on your age, when you are young you care what others think, when you get older you stop caring. at some stage you reach a point when you decide to tell others what you think even though they didn't ask.
As for the course of action I with you on (3. Justified? yes, ethical? yes. But the real question is would you stop your own team mate from doing it if he was on your team, that is a real test of ethics.
Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
You know at the end of the day if you answer the question "does this dress make me look fat" with "I don't think it is the dress" very few good things will come to you. It is best just to say "NO!" with a straight face and total sincerity. It's even better to avoid hearing the question at all.
David
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
Or... Does David Spade just shovel off the spade subject as so much #$%^?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
- Steve
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
I learned long ago not to say to customers, what prat did that as he might be sitting opposite you.
However when people ask questions here from complete strangers, they must expect a variety of answers, some of which might be very straight forward.
I am not talking here about being rude, what I am talking about is in an ethics forum squarely calling something what it really is and then seeing if it is still justified rather than watering it down with flowery language to make it easier to justify even if it really is not.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
Its the same thing - only to somebody who has authority.
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
The truth isn't always expected or appreciated.
Turning round and saying that you are just twiddling your thumbs until IT get's their finger out and hooks you up to the intranet doesn't go down well.
Never speak ill of IT... they hold the company to ransom.
A lesson learned - there is a time and a place for directness.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
I am talking about being blunt here in the ethics forum, not when dealing with customers or colleagues in the workplace or dealing with relationships.
Questions like does this dress make my bum look big are a whole different story.
How frank to be with your boss or customers is also a whole different ballgame and depends on many factors including their character and how well you know them.
It is possible to be frank and polite and sensitive, well sometimes it is.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
- Steve
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
But sharing your innermost thoughts with anyone can destroy important relationships. Loss of those relationships can easily be a net loss to you. In short, as we run off at the mouth, we can become way less effective. Now after an "honesty" episode and some vigorous push back from the recipient, we can rail at the world and label them for the fools and sycophants that they sometimes are -- but in the end, as they say in the vernacular, "You be screwed".
Honesty, without regard to the listener or the message can be a sin. It also can result in a huge philosophical mistake -- honesty (like, for example, liberty, food, and leisure), is a limited good -- a certain amount of it is highly beneficial. But too much makes one a boor, a sociopath, a glutton, or a sloth. Integrity is a little bit more complex than running around telling everyone their offenses in their most reduced of forms. Proportionality is also demanded.
Total honesty clouds matters of degree. A person who takes a pencil home in his pocket and leaves it there is a thief just like Bernie Madoff. But society cannot function, and it's not honest, to say merely because they can be described by the same word makes their offenses equal. Yes, objectively they're both thieves, and neither is right, but if you condemn them equally, you're almost giving Bernie a free pass, and the pencil thief a sanction very much out of proportion to his or her offense.
In the end, it should be about justice. Justice is an unlimited philosophical good -- the more you have, the better off we are.
Your point is clear, and it would be better if more erred a little more toward honesty and didn't use euphemisms to hide their most filthy of impulses. My only point is that excessive honesty, a limitied good, can compromise justice, an unlimited one.
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
Frankly, whiney and defensive retorts to a response regarding an ethical question should be red flagged and removed. It is an ethics forum, not a way to agree with other rule breakers about the rules being broken.
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
I agree with you and I have seen some of the straightforward responses you have given. Straight shooting in this context is a good thing.
zdas, same thing.
We can all agree that telling your wife she's fat or telling a client that he's a moron is a stupid and immature thing to do.
I get pretty annoyed with some of the posters in here who are whining. There are a lot of people who think that the world owes them a living and it makes me angry. These people need to be called out as much as possible on the off chance that they might eventually learn to be a decent person.
Of course, the primadonnas will just get mad instead of thinking they might be wrong.
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
I have long been accused of lacking diplomacy skills. The older I get, the more I don't give a rat's a$$.
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
Life.
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
Me too: "Yes, your donkey needs a bigger stable."
I don't often get asked that question, though.
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
TheTick, going back a bit, It may well be a manure shoveling device, and when shoveling uphill, is somewhat more effective than a pointy stick.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
A spade is a spade; it is a tool used to dig into packed material.
A shovel is a shovel; it is a tool used to move loose material.
Their shapes are different and their intended functions are different. Calling them anything other than what they are is inaccurate and confusing.
Telling it like it is, is a good thing, but the 'telling' can be delivered in both constructive and destructive ways. I believe the constructive way is the better choice.
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
Of all people, given your OP! If you read my post as anything other than literally, then you have mistaken me. I meant, if asked by the owner of a donkey, etc., then my answer would be as stated.
Regarding my wife's gluteal area, that's a whole 'nother matter. Once bruised, twice shy. Nowadays my response to such questions from SWMBO is likely to be along the lines of "Oh crap, I think the neighbor's dog is on fire", followed by a hasty exit (stage left).
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
Pat is exactly right. It serves no purpose in these forums to sugarcoat stuff. For the most part, it is anonymous and usually not intended as personal flaming.
Sometimes you can tell people to go to hell and they'll enjoy the trip...other times you have to "pre-heat" them(to be blunt...set their asses on fire) to give them an idea of what hell is really like.
Sometimes I use diplomacy...sometimes a baseball bat. I don't necessarily intend to do either...it's just what strikes me at the time.
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
You had something to hide
Should have hidden it, shouldn't you?
Now you're not satisfied
With what you're being put through
It's just time to pay the price
For not listening to advice
And deciding in your youth
On the policy of truth
Things could be so different now
It used to be so civilized
You will always wonder how
It could have been if you'd only lied
It's too late to change events
It's time to face the consequence
For delivering the proof
In the policy of truth
Never again
Is what you swore
The time before
Never again
Is what you swore
The time before
Now you're standing there tongue tied
You better learn your lesson well
Hide what you have to hide
And tell what you have to tell
You'll see your problems multiplied
If you continually decide
To faithfully pursue
The policy of truth
Never again
Is what you swore
The time before
Never again
Is what you swore
The time before
Never again
Is what you swore
The time before
I have found that there is a time for everything under the sun. A time to run and a time to fight. If we were all totally truthful and PURELY ethical we would be lynched and run out of every town we worked in. That is the truth. So I like the old saying of "Knowing when to pick your battles". I leave lots of ammo in my arsenal for the really important stuff. As a structural engineer it is impossible to police everyone. Individuals must govern themselves or risk tyranny.
John Southard, M.S., P.E.
http://www.pdhlibrary.com
RE: Calling a spade a #$#@@ shovel
I suspect that like most persons exposed to athletics and thus an early opportunity to understand the concept of action-reaction and consequences, we've grown to "cut to the chase" and be more direct. I find that most colleagues like this sort of thing and often stop by for some candid advise. And, of course, some don't like it all, claiming that such an approach lacks tact and such. Because I'm mainly interacting with engineers all day long my frankness is, more often than not, appreciated.
As I've matured and interact with clients more and more I find myself biting my tongue and looking for ways to express myself and my ideas in a less antagonistic way. The only downfall is that when I'm back with my own crew, the usual new kid on the block who fouls up is quick to catch all my bottled up angst.
Not that I spend much time on this matter, as Cass noted, I'm getting to that certain age that I just don't care. I guess I'm only lucky that more people prefer honesty over garbage.
Regards,
![[pipe] pipe](https://www.tipmaster.com/images/pipe.gif)
Qshake
Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.