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What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

(OP)
In my quest for grad schools, I have come across a few schools that offer a masters in systems engineering. I had never heard of it and figured it was a money making scheme and ignored it. Recently, however, I got my monthly issue of money magazine which had an article about the best job growth and Numero Uno on the list was systems engineer. They described it as dealing with the project managment aspect of engineering. Wikipedia has a nice article about it and also. My question is this: Does anyone have a Masters degree in Systems Engineeing? If so, what are your opinions of it? What did you learn? Would you do it again?

Thanks Guys/Gals!  

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

I just have a bachelors in Aerospace Systems Engineering and I'm not sure it's the same thing.

The systems aspect of my course was more about learning the fundamentals of what the various systems did/could do etc. presumably with intent that you vaguely understood it when talking with experts in each field while working as some kins of project engineer or project manager but we never really did much of that actual stuff.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

Systems engineering deals with the interconnectedness of everything ... in a holistic way.

- Steve

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

Using a synergistic approach to leverage capabilities...

Sorry.

It can be a bit management speakish.

I think similar was discussed here before now, though maybe just about systems engineering not specifically a Masters.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

Sorry.  Bad Douglas Adams references in there.

- Steve

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

I am not a systems engineer, but the older gentleman that is in the office across the hall is.  I have shared many a lunch with him.  A masters appears typically necessary because no one gets a bachelors in systems... doesn't exist.  It is kinda a thing to move up in the ranks.  In my experience (limited) systems engineers typically have an electrical background.  Like Sompting said, they deal with the interconnectedness of the whole thing... the system.  From what I see, they deal a lot with requirements, and writing tests to validate and verify the the device meets requirements.  See the link below for more info: http://www.incose.org/

-Dustin
Professional Engineer
Certified SolidWorks Professional
Certified COSMOSWorks Designer Specialist
Certified SolidWorks Advanced Sheet Metal Specialist
 

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

I think their scope is to meld the software and hardware together to come up with the final end item.  I also agree it is mostly Electrical/Software drive field.  In todays day and age everything is run by software or firmware.   

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

Funny, a senior guy at LHM told me to add Systems Integration (or maybe it was engineering) to my resume because I'd done a whole bunch of A/C stores integration work.  However, virtually all of it was mechanical, with a tiny bit of management of the electrical/software side.

Systems Engineering really means different things to different folks in different industry sectors.

Here (machine design) the systems engineers are mostly (all?) from a mechanical background though with some knowledge of electrical and software.  

I swear it was touched on before but a quick search only turned up thread731-233243: Online Class and I'm sure there had been another.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

I took one grad course in systems engineering. Fortunately, it was an evening class and their was a bar next door. Watching paint dry would be more fun.

Systems engineering I was taught was very much like life cycle analysis, to include risk. The engineering economic analysis went deeper into the subject than undergrad and has been very useful. Mathematical modeling and simulations was much like the undergrad, no additional depth. From their we went to probability and statistics, queueing and scheduling, and system test and eval. That part was useful later for commissioning (wasn't called that then).

From their, it went to design basics, design for reliability, maintainability, human factors, economic feasibility, and support. That part was useful for a framework when doing biddability, constructability, and operability review for major construction.

The class could have taken half as much time if it didn't linger on terminology and exact wording, nit-picking, and inventing new terms to describe old subjects. The guy I had teaching was into maintenance and logistics for major systems, so most of the programs and scenarios run were on that subject. I haven't used any of that. The book was pretty good (Blanchard and Fabrycky) and I still use it as a reference 25 years later.  

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

Sensible hat on now...

Where I work, the systems engineers seem to manage projects that span multiple disciplines (mech/elec/control).  Like hybrid vehicles.

 

- Steve

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

I always thought System Engineering is a position or description of work portfolio rather than a subject of academic degree.

But then there are degrees for similar things like MBA and stuff. Still a system engineer for a IT world would a lot different than one for a food processing plant and so on.  

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

Systems engineering in Aerospace/Defense deals with understanding and parsing system requirements to derive/allocate subsystem requirements.  

As such, an SE deals with determining the functional partitioning and flowdown of electronics, mechanics, optics, and software.   

TTFN

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RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

I think for a mechanical, it's easier to think of systems engineer in terms of commissioning. Of course now, commissioning applies to envelope, Division 22, 26, 27, 28, etc.

A lot of the systems engineering that was taught would really be a part of logistics. Not sure if there is a difference between logistics engineering and systems engineering.

Automotive industry would be a perfect example. If you want to sell parts, design to fail the day after warranty expires. Design for failure was a big part of the undergrad materials class I had. The prof gave really good examples of how one component, like a spring, could be designed for a fairly accurate number of cycles, and then making the spring an integral part of an assembly. Based on the expected failure rate and cost of replacement parts, life cycle projections for materials, profit, stockage, etc. would be performed.

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

In my company we have a loose group of regional engineers managing projects involving mechanical, electrical, controls, etc....  Someone tried to organize that group and have a central control of those projects - he called it Systems Engineering and labelled us systems engineers.  So, sorta like what SomptingGuy said at my company.

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

Quote (mauricestoker):

The class could have taken half as much time if it didn't linger on terminology and exact wording, nit-picking, and inventing new terms to describe old subjects.

Without lingering on terminology and exact wording... it wouldn't be Systems Engineering. :)

-Dustin
Professional Engineer
Certified SolidWorks Professional
Certified COSMOSWorks Designer Specialist
Certified SolidWorks Advanced Sheet Metal Specialist
 

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

SE is widely used in automotive engineering. I have argued before that it is not much use as a masters until you have a fair amount of expertise under your belt. or beer.

Rather like six Sigma, you can concentrate on the new fancy tools they give you to play with, which are the old tools uploaded to a PC, or you can use it to get things done. To do the latter requires experience.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

A good SE divides a problem space into chunks,
- then for each chunk, defines a module in solution space,
- then outlines how each module will attack its assigned chunk of the problem,
- then, most importantly, defines the interfaces between the modules,
- and how they will interact with each other,
- before any of the modules are available.

A not so good SE does the same thing, except that later, after much money has been spent, we find out that some of the modules are unrealizable, or some of the interfaces are not wide enough.

When it's done well, it looks easy.  
I don't think it actually is easy.


 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

From what I have gleaned is that it is doing "old fashioned project management" really well.

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

At my uni, systems eng was another way to get girls into engineering, and was greatly appreciated by the other disciplines for that reason.  The systems program in my year was ~40% girls.

Sadly I've never encountered one in my career, so what they do when they grow up is still a mystery to me.

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

I'm a systems engineer for an aircraft company.  My job function is to ensure the safety of the system, compliance to regulations, designing/integrating the individual system components to make the complete system, correcting/dealing with any problems that arise due to quality escapes, new regulations, premature failures, etc.

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, a poor system design may not become apparent until years after the product has been delivered.

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

At IBM in the 1980s and 1990s, a Systems Engineer was a salesperson (of large integrated computer systems, not household PCs) with some kind of engineering degree.

Hg

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RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

In project engineering, a Gantt chart shows how several developments progress together instead of in tandem. It is a time saver. Think of engine development running parallel with structure, control and other system details.

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

So then ... what's a system's administrator?
Windows says I should see one every so often.  From the number of times it says that, I should think you would be able to find one on any street corner, but they don't seem to hang around there.  Perhaps a systems engineer might be able to substitute for a system's administrator, since I always figured that a systems engineer was the one that actually did the real work and the administrator was his boss, who really wasn't supposed to do anything except  administrate the systems engineers anyway.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

Shrugs, project scheduling and project management are separate activities related to the discipline known as Systems Engineering, which... well hell if you don't know what it is look at wikipedia.

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?


The company I currently work for has a Systems Engineering department in which their function is to be the lead engineer overseeing all the functional engineering departments.

They are mostly the go between the technical people and the program management as well as customer discussions.

There is no formal education needed at my company other than an Engineering degree in a related field and an overall knowledge of the product.

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

Project management department would fulfill that function in EPC houses.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

I have a degree in Systems Engineering - it's a blend of mechanical, electrical and control systems.

Best way to describe it is with the example of a car as a system. It has mechanical components integrated with sensors, electrical components and control software.

I did subjects ranging from stress analysis and materials to semiconductors and advanced signal processing.

My last job was with hybrid vehicles where the degree made a lot of sense.

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

Hmm, and my uni now offers a "mechatronics" engineering program (i.e. your blend of mech, elec and controls) as well as the pre-existing systems design engineering program (aforementioned welcome source of girls to the eng department).

No "industrial engineering" program, though.  Guess that's a dirty word these days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_engineering
  
They also offer a nanotechnology engineering program- hybrid of chem eng and physics (whose students find great difficulty in obtaining co-op work term jobs).

"Buzzword engineering" apparently attracts government grant money, so it's doing its job as far as the uni is concerned.

 

 

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

Systems engineering also includes human and redundant factors, sometimes simultaneously, as with advanced research at the Department of Redundancy Department. Coming up with wholly redundant buzz words can be difficult and not easy to do.

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

here is a link from a systems engineering consulting site.

http://www.optants.com/tutor/ceseipt.htm#SEMTH

-Dustin
Professional Engineer
Certified SolidWorks Professional
Certified COSMOSWorks Designer Specialist
Certified SolidWorks Advanced Sheet Metal Specialist
 

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

There seems to be a few negative opinions of systems engineering out there! It is more than a 'new' method of project management. From what i can see it is best applied up front in the project definition phase. For instance making sure that the requirements are adequately captured and defined in a way that can be developed. Ok, maybe it's not doing 'hard sums' but it is INCREDIBLY important for success. I've had the unfortunate privelege to work on several large projects that could have benefited from this approach...

Perhaps some should try to identify WHY this discipline has come about? INCOSE (which someone posted the link to earlier) is trying to establish the competency framework so that those in the US can go down the PE route. The original methodology seems to have come out of software / electronic / user-interface type problems but is equally applicable to other engineering projects. Needless to say this is not a job someone with no engineering knowledge can do well.

Seems to be more use in big projects where system complexity and integration can be a real issue, otherwise it might be a big hammer for a small nut.

NASA use it...
http://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/displayDir.cfm?t=NPR&c=7123&s=1A

DoD use it
http://www.dod.mil/ddre/org_sys_eng.html

DOE use it
http://cio.energy.gov/SEM3_1231.pdf

Ok, maybe that isn't a ringing endorsement for it but nonetheless it doesn't surprise me that that type of role is getting offered big bucks (going back to the OP)- too many projects run over time and budget.

Regards all, HM

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

I wouldn't characterize my opinion of the subdiscipline as negative.  Rather, I would say that the sub-discipline is ill-defined, and there are several other disciplines with similar attributes and descriptions.  That explains the confusion about what a systems design engineer actually does.

Sounds like systems should be a masters program done after you complete a bachelors in one of the traditional non-military disciplines (those are civil, mech, chem and electrical in my books).

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

Systems Engineer sounds like a mechanical/electrical/software ARCHITECT - but without the bow tie!

www.PeirceEngineering.com

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

Quote:

  A masters appears typically necessary because no one gets a bachelors in systems... doesn't exist.

There are BS degrees in Systems Engineering. http://seor.gmu.edu/ George Mason University offers it as a BS and is supposedly a great program. Im sure the location of the school has most to do with that (30 mins away from DC).

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

That program doesn't look hardcore at all.  

peace
Fe

RE: What the heck is Systems Engineeing?

GW runs a lot of programs specifically catering to the gubmint. I was offered to teach task order contracting for fixed firm price plus incentive contracts there, but it sounded as exciting as the systems engineering class. From what I have seen, that is a good thing for the gubmint and GW.

When you look at the cost overruns on major procurements in the government, it's easy to see how systems engineering would be applicable, and might even avoid buying $700 hammers and synthetic urine for testing on-board aircraft heads. I remember reviewing the AF synthetic urine program and commenting that I could provide the real thing for a tenth of the price and only specialty tool I would need would be a bottle opener. Of course, it was still funded.

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