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"For the good of the company"
15

"For the good of the company"

"For the good of the company"

(OP)
Hi All,

Here's my situation:
I'm a few months in at a new job. When I started here, the boss hinted that from time to time, I'd be asked to work on bids and proposals to bring in new work. This proposal work is not "billed" time, and so would be outside of the 40 regular hours that I'm assigned to projects. I have no problem with that. A month or so into the job, I received a bid package started by one of my coworkers and was asked to edit it and prepare it for submission. The grammar and language in the bid were lacking, so I cleaned it up, made it look like a professional document and submitted it.

The boss must have been impressed with my work, as he then told me that I'd have a bigger role in bid preparation from then on. I didn't think much of it at first and just went back to my regular design duties.

A few weeks ago, we received a new RFP which is much larger than anything the company has ever bid on. Moreover, it's in a new field where our company has never worked. It was put on me to organize the proposal writing effort from start to finish, including using resources within the company to develop the concept and do the background research.

The projects we are working on (for which we are paid) are taking us well past 40 hours per week. Adding this proposal would effectively mean adding 15-20 hours to a few team members' weekly schedules. It has been made perfectly clear by upper management that our "paid-for" project schedules should not be impacted, and that this proposal will "make or break" the company, so it should also be given our full attention.

Today I was chewed out for the fact that the team did not do as much work as they should have (on the proposal) over the weekend. I was told that it's my job to motivate the team to come in and work for free (recall that I've only been here a few months). When I ask how I can ask this of people with families, I'm told that it's "for the good of the company", and that people should be more than willing to work for free in order to ensure that they have a job in the future.

I'm curious to know how some of you have dealt with a situation like this in the past. I'm burning the candle at both ends right now, and my nerves are shot. This morning's roasting (of me) almost had me packing up my stuff and leaving, but I took a walk around the building, put my head down and got back to work. I'm willing to "suck it up", but I'd hate to see the lining of my stomach (if I even have one) in a few years if this keeps up. Words of wisdom from E-T members have gotten me through a number of pickles in the past, so I'm hoping that you'll be able to spare a little more of that magic.

RE: "For the good of the company"

Seems to me like they are using the economy's poor condition to take advantage of their workers.  You should not have to go insane working 60 hour weeks just to ensure that you have a job in the future.  It seems like management is willing to have you work long hours so that they can ensure themselves of a future job.

It's not worth the stree, in my option.  Dust off the resume and see where it takes you.  If you start getting offers, then notify your employer and see where that goes.  You seem like a valuable asset: they may not want to lose you.

RE: "For the good of the company"

on one hand, it sounds like you've been handed a once-in-a-job opportunity to shine.  

on the other hand, it sounds like "shining" is not the present direction of the project (to develop the proposal for a project).

 

RE: "For the good of the company"

Are you salary or hourly?

If salary - you are usually expected to work whatever it takes to get jobs done - even if it means more than 40 hours and weekends.  That counterbalances the times when work is slow and you may not have 40 hours worth of work but get paid for 40 hours.

If hourly - then there is no "for the good of the company".  I once had a boss who told me that hourly is, "you no pay, me no work".

Also, any job that is causing the stress you seem to be experiencing - especially for one not too long with the company - may not be worth it.

And any single proposal that will "make or break" the company may indicate the company is nearly broken.

RE: "For the good of the company"

How large is the company (both $$ and employees)?
Are you and the other team members salaried?
If this situation were to happen to me at my current position, I would knuckle under and get the job done.  It is expected to put forth this type of effort from time to time.
If I were considered hourly however, I would put up a fight.  A company should have funds dedicated to quotes and proposal work, and asking hourly workers to work for free is against labor laws.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: "For the good of the company"

Gee, there weren't any replies when I started mine.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: "For the good of the company"

(OP)
Thanks so far for answers. In response:
-I am paid on a salary basis.
-Company is small (<30 employees, not too sure how much $ is made annually)

ivymike, your first point is what keeps me getting up in the morning.  

RE: "For the good of the company"

"That counterbalances the times when work is slow and you may not have 40 hours worth of work but get paid for 40 hours"

Yep and pigs might fly.

I find this strange that they have a policy that bids are work on for free. I have never had this happen; normally this would count as an overhead to a company. Thus employees should be paid for there time and input.

My next question would be did management work the weekend????? Do they handle many bids? If the situation is caused by them not being able to handle the bids then I would stick it out, putting this down as a one off. Alternatively if they refuse to work on bids preferring to give it to the employees then I'm walking out the door at my first available opportunity.
 

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

RE: "For the good of the company"

5
Just as a general rule, anyone who uses the term "good of the company" is stealing from someone.  Another red-light phrase is "put on the big hat".  Either one of them should set off alarm bells.

I had a boss once (while working 60+ hours/week) come into my office with a "critical" project that he wanted me to do.  I pointed to my "current" stack and asked "which other deadline to you want to slip?".  He said "we have nights and we have weekends".  I took the package, dropped it on my desk and went to a bar (it was after quitting time).  For the next year I worked 40 hours per week--no nights, no weekends.  The first month or so deadlines suffered, then it steadied out.  At the end of the year I looked at my backlog and it was almost exactly what it had been before my work slowdown.  After everyone got over being disappointed in my lack of dedication they looked at my work product and I got good raises and early promotions.  After that, I set my own priorities and only worked overtime on the stuff that I thought was important--a lot less stress and still good results.

The reason for relating that story is to say, set your own priorities.  If your boss thinks you are going too slow, ask him for his personal help and guidance, say Saturday at 5:30 am so you don't take too much of his weekend?

David

RE: "For the good of the company"

I was worked to the bone for almost a full year once.  I thought I was doing it for the good of company.  Then raises came and no one got anything but the boss got a nice new car (which we refer to as the company rocket).  I have been bitter about my job ever since and looking for something new.  This recession is starting to get to me.

Anyway, I learnt that lesson fast.  I now work 40hrs/week max (unless I'm on a job site).

I do question though, if I'd have a hard limit on hours if I liked my job and was treated better.

RE: "For the good of the company"

They say that general health is a function of your ability to have control over your life. The salaried man will send out the resumes and struggle to find better work. Don't settle for small companies with questionable staffs and unqualified management.

In aerospace, we did overtime and got paid for it. In later employment, we were expected to show up on Saturday. I came a few times until I found that it was coffee and donuts and nothing more. So much for working extra hours. What a waste.

RE: "For the good of the company"

"That counterbalances the times when work is slow and you may not have 40 hours worth of work but get paid for 40 hours."

What??  I've never heard of people on salary not being required to be in the office for the full 40 hours when times are slow.  Time spent in the office, whether it's productive work or not, is still time given to my employer, and not my time.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: "For the good of the company"

Writing proposals is part of the cost of doing business. Employees should be properly compensated for the time they spend doing it.

I work for a firm of 14 people, some weeks up to 40% of my time is non-billable (I am not one of the owners). As long as I list what I was doing for the overhead time I get no grief from the bosses.

I work a little overtime here and there and don't worry about it, but overall it's 40 and out.

RE: "For the good of the company"

Its maybe OK to handle the occasional job on an ad hoc basis when ocassional is all it is and for workers to help out out "for the good of the company" and later on management shows its appreciation somehow... even if just by saying thank you.

But when it becomes institutionalised and "expected" with no rewards and in fact stick given, then too bad.
They have to expect to get what they pay for. There will be some families that don;t appreciate extra work for no extra benefit and what will happen is that some people will start looking for work elsewhere and when they find it they'll go.

If this is important then management needs to treat this as important and allocate resources and fund the bid or walk away from it.

Even exploitation has its limits.

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: "For the good of the company"

You could go back to your boss, ask him if there will be a direct reward for preparing the bid 'on your (and the others) own time' and say this may help motivate the others to help out.  A previous employer didn't have over time for salaried staff but needed some extra time, so basically said I'd get an end of year bonus to compensate me.  They were as good as their word.

I don't have a problem being a bit flexible, giving a bit of time without direct extra pay when necessary, maybe once in a while even getting up to the 50% extra mark they're asking for.  However, once they start demanding it, without explicitly stating the reward, it rubs me the wrong way.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: "For the good of the company"

7
If they demand you work for free for the good of the company, they should be prepared to give you a slice of the company, or at least a %age of the said projects.

Same for the others they are asking you to exploit on their behalf.

Anything else and they are just abusing current job insecurity to steal from you and worse still to pressure you into conspiring to steal from others.

 

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: "For the good of the company"

""That counterbalances the times when work is slow and you may not have 40 hours worth of work but get paid for 40 hours."

What??  I've never heard of people on salary not being required to be in the office for the full 40 hours when times are slow."

Yeah, and when it really slows down, they ask you to come in for the forty, but every one needs to take a 10-20% pay cut.

I find it odd that they expect 100% billable on a 40 hr week.

RE: "For the good of the company"

"If your boss thinks you are going too slow, ask him for his personal help and guidance, say Saturday at 5:30 am so you don't take too much of his weekend?"

A star for that one, David.

I've always worked more than 40 (hrs/week), but there have been times, especially after a string of 50's and 60's, that I've taken some extra time off, usually with the boss' ok.  Ask for that compensation (extra time off down the road) up front, see what they say.

RE: "For the good of the company"

Whilst I am often amazed at what some people on here think are unreasonable requests for professional salaried engineers I do think this is totally unreasonable.

Both in and out of work some people are put upon, anyone who is a member of a club outside of work be that a golf club a walking club or whatever will probably have come across the situation where a couple of people do about 95% of the work whilst most of the others just moan and say how much better they could have done the job. However when an extra job comes up guess who ends up doing it.

I do think the idea of saying to your boss lets meet up on Saturday at 5.30 am is a stupid one, who is going to win from this? This will either get his back up and you will be seen in a bad light, when you should be seen as a star of the company for doing what you are doing or he will say fine lets start at 5.30 and put in a 14 hour day to get on top of this. What good can come from this?

Personally I would try and talk to him and explain the situation, saying that you do not mind doing some extra time for the good of the company, but you feel that after 40 hours of hard graft, quoting such a large project and spending so many extra hours on it is having a detrimental effect on your work, family and social life and your health. Say you are not prepared to continue like this and ask for his suggestions as to how to improve the situation.

If he refuses to be reasonable at least you have tried and know where you stand and have better information to make a decision about what to do from there.
 

RE: "For the good of the company"

If your company offers free quotes, their cost should be factored in elsewhere.

- Steve

RE: "For the good of the company"

It is common practice to include in the estimate for the job, the cost of actually estimating the job and time is set aside for that task and is recovered by the company in the final bill.

Why you should work for free seems strange to me as I thought slavery had been abolished some time ago. You must work in some remote country where 21st century standards of civilisation haven't yet been reached.

As for being 'professional'; I've known professional engineers who work on contract and charge for every minute of their time... bless their little cotton socks.. and ferraris.  

corus

RE: "For the good of the company"

We all do some work for free, the problem starts when it becomes expected, and abused.

If the company demands ALL time on ALL proposals is done by their staff for free, they have nothing to loose and most likely will quote on any and everything as it is no loss to them. They have to share at least some of the costs so that you know they are not spending yours frivolously.

 

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: "For the good of the company"

My experience:
In all my jobs sometimes I did some overtime. In my previous job, it was common to put around 45/50 hours per week. I never complained because I felt that the company was fair to me in terms of salary and benefits.

In my current job, since it is more volatile in terms of workload, I have weeks where I make 40 hours and others where I make 60 and some Saturdays. Right now we are moving our warehouse and being this under my management, I will work at least the next 4 Saturdays in a row.

Again, I don't complaint because the company has been fair to me. This year I received a 4 month's salary bonus, which covered (in my oppinion) the overtime, non-office hours availability and other hassles. Of course, in the day that I feel the company is no longer fair to me, my attitude most probably will change.  

RE: "For the good of the company"

My comment, "That counterbalances the times when work is slow and you may not have 40 hours worth of work but get paid for 40 hours." was from experience - maybe unusual, but it happened.

I have worked for companies that had salaried engineers and when workload was high - they put in 50-60 hours of work per week and and when workload was light - they were in the office 40 hours per week, but they didn't put in 40 hours worth of work.  There was a lot of cleaning the cubical, putting away files, etc. - nothing project related.  

Hourly people had to have something to charge their time to - even it was just company overhead - so inactivity was tracked more directly with hourly, but not the salaried.  That is one of the perceived benefits of salaried over hourly - you can mask/hide periods of inactivity for awhile.

 

RE: "For the good of the company"

zdas04, I appreciate your story.  My own epiphany came when I was cut down to 4 days per week as a means for the company to save money.  I went from working 60-70 hour weeks trying to help them obtain more business and save my job, to working 32 and being paid 90% of my salary (half of the "day off" was paid for by a government work-share program).    The key benefit of the work-share program was that I had a whole day off each week to devote to finding a job where my skills and abilities were properly recognized, rather than trying to prop up a marginal business.  They were offering me NO upside for my extra work whatsoever.

justkeepgiviner:  your boss has an unrealistic and unachieveable billability (utilization) target.  They need to get over themselves and find a real business model, rather than exploiting their employees' sense of duty and professionalism in this way.

If what they want you to do is to work extra for future benefit, have them spell out the future benefit first.  Are they offering you a share of the profit?  An ownership position, so you can share in the profit as a share-holder?  Time off in slow periods?  

Be aware that exploitative employers are the first to lay people off in slow periods.

If the only compensation is potential brownie points, or keeping your job, I'd politely say no, thank you.  Stick to your 40 hours.  

Volunteering for a profitable company is a waste of time.  There are many opportunities for you to volunteer your time in the community where it will be of true benefit- choose one of those instead.

Volunteering for a non-profitable company is an even bigger waste of time.  

Offering your time and effort as "sweat equity" toward a pre-negotiated future financial benefit from your employer is a business investment.  In the right organization, it can be a very lucrative one indeed.  

 

RE: "For the good of the company"

I find this a very strange operating method.  Time spent preparing bids is part of 'overhead', and if the company somehow expects this all to be done as charity work, they should expect the quality of the effort to reflect what they've paid for it.

I have never heard of a company expecting all bids to be preparted 'off the clock'.  You certainly can't bill it to an existing customer, but the whole point is that your gross profit on a job is expected to cover the costs incurred in bidding and getting the job, plus a chunk of the bids prepared and lost.

RE: "For the good of the company"

Peddarin2 wrote:  "I have worked for companies that had salaried engineers and when workload was high - they put in 50-60 hours of work per week and and when workload was light - they were in the office 40 hours per week, but they didn't put in 40 hours worth of work.  There was a lot of cleaning the cubical, putting away files, etc. - nothing project related."

So, in busy times, you got to spend 50 - 60 hours per week at the office, and got paid for 40.  In slow times, you got to spend 40 hours per week at the office and get paid for 40.  Your family time gets short changed 10-20 hours per week in busy times, but in return, during slow times, it gets...what exactly?

Doesn't sound like a win-win situation, sounds like a win-tie situation.  In busy times, the company wins; in slow times, you don't win.

 

RE: "For the good of the company"

Do you have to be in the office to get the RPF done?  Usually when working overtime or weekends, I'm free to get the task done whereever (home, library, office, park, whatever).  I don't mind it when I'm free to work in other environments.

For it to be expected - that does seem unreasonable.  In my company, we reguarly respond to RFPs (request for proposals) and that time is charged to overhead.  We're all salaried so yes - we can usually hide time in various larger projects, within reason.

And yes, when we're slow we don't always put in 40 hours in the office.  Sometimes things come up and we are expected to manage our time as most of us are "professionals".  However, it is not unusual to have the office almost fully staffed on Saturday when we're swamped.

If you're busy, you put in the time.  If you're not, enjoy it while you can.

RE: "For the good of the company"

Quote (TenPenny):

Doesn't sound like a win-win situation, sounds like a win-tie situation.  In busy times, the company wins; in slow times, you don't win.

Sounds eerily similar to the laws of thermodynamics.

V

RE: "For the good of the company"

I have been working in industry for two years and I have a couple of comments.

1) I have never been able to work less than 40 hours a week on a salaried position, but I was always expected to work more when necessary. Outright theft of my time, with no reciprocation. Never work for free, if you don't have the self-respect to stand up for yourself and emphasize your time is very valuable to you no one else will.

2) I would inform management that if they expect me to be a salesman and devote my time free to doing bids then I want a contract rewritten to include a % commission on each bid that I successfully win (on top of the standard salaried engineering duties, make sure to keep raises compartmentalized as well). This has a number of positive benefits, management only has to pay if you succeed, you will feel much more motivated to produce, and you will make damn sure the quote is the best possible quality. Turn the situation into a win win for both parties. The only catch is you need to be firm with what you want and not take no for an answer.
 

RE: "For the good of the company"

Peddarin2, I don't get it.  Whether you're doing complex calculations or sweeping the floors or anything in between you're working for them.  It would be one thing if when the load was light they let you come in late or go home early or work half days Friday or the like.  However, they're still expecting you to be in the office for 40, which is your basic week.

Then when they're busy they expect well over 40.  Like Ten Penny says, the company is getting a lot more out of it.

I don't get this attitude that only directly billable hours count toward your 40.  Any work related task, even if not billable, counts toward your 40.  Heck in most reasonable places you'd probably get to include a few toilet breaks and trips to the coffee machine etc. in your 40.  This gap between billable and 40 is part of overhead and should be accounted for somehow.

ajack, while I'm sure we'd all like to have a boss we could go and say something like that to, sadly that's not always realistic.  Obviously you can't know for sure till you try, but there are many bosses with whome this would get you on their bad list.  Heck, I know someone who got threatened with being fired when they told their management that their massively increased work load (went from doing the work of 1 to the work of 3 or 4 plus picking up the slack of another worker) was causing them health issues.  The very fact the OP's manager already berated him for not working every hour God sent implies pretty strongly to me that he's not going to take your approach.  I'm guessing he won't take my suggestion well either but I'd guess slightly less badly.

As if it needed saying again, the OP should dust of his resume and start looking.  Easier said than done in this climate when working 40+ hours but your current place aint smelling of roses.  

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: "For the good of the company"

"I do think the idea of saying to your boss lets meet up on Saturday at 5.30 am is a stupid one, who is going to win from this? "

Both of you, and the company.  You win by making your boss see the effort you are putting forth for the "good of the company".  He wins by being there as moral support for his overworked employee, and (possibly, if he's at all competent as a manager/businessperson) by adding his valuable input on details of the proposal.  The company wins by (hopefully) winning the job due to the work put in.

"This will either get his back up and you will be seen in a bad light, when you should be seen as a star of the company for doing what you are doing or he will say fine lets start at 5.30 and put in a 14 hour day to get on top of this. What good can come from this?"

Fine, his back is up - he'll get over it, or modify his behavior appropriately.  My point is, he should be there when his troops are, if for moral support only.  At least a token appearance must be made, to show that he's willing to make a sacrifice in similar kind to his employees.  That's the mark of a good leader.  All too few of those in business these days, it seems.

RE: "For the good of the company"

ajack,

Every time I read your posts I grow more certain that you are unable to see the perspective of an employee with no stake in the company. Employees are hired labour who give a number of hours of their time to work for a company in return for an amount of compensation. You can't judge them by the same set of criteria you judge an owner or partner, but you seem to expect that level of commitment from employees. You can *buy* extra time, or more employees, but you can't expect people who you pay for 40 hours of their time to unilaterally donate an extra 10 or 20 hours for free. As an owner you have an obvious incentive to work until your fingers bleed: if the company succeeds then you make money, and equally if it fails then maybe you lose everything you've staked in the venture. It's a very different motivator to a monthly pay packet.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: "For the good of the company"

I never understood the salary thing either - working more hours but paid the same - then not allowed to take off when things were slow.

Maybe that is why I have never been salaried.

I like getting paid for the hours I work.

RE: "For the good of the company"

I'm not sure what or how your company works, but it strikese me that something funny is going on.

If this proposal is going to make or break the company, why isn't management taking care of ensuring it gets done?  Instead they have delegated this responsibility to someone who has only been there a few months.

You also mention that this is a significant departure from your companies typical line of work, again, why isn't management driving this process, since it is obviously not business as usual.

Is someone setting you up to be the fall guy?  Do you really want to work for a company where the management can't be bothered to spearhead the pursuit of a new line of business that will make or break the company?

 

RE: "For the good of the company"

Here's another point of view:

This is an opportunity.  You've only been there a few months and they have already trusted you with a pretty big proposal?  Bravo!  Trust me, you'd rather be in this situation than the guy in the corner that does his 50 and they never ask anything more of him.  There an old axiom:  "A great job only gets rewarded with more work."

- Are you putting in more than you get paid?  Yes.
- Are you learning how to write good proposals? Yes.  Hmmm... than just may come in handy in the future!
- Have your supervisors established trust in you?  Yes.
- Will you reputation and credibility be enhanced?  Yes.
- Will they cut you into the company?  Who knows.  You should ask. (over a beer)  

It's only a 30 man team right now.  They are trying to grow.  They will quickly screening for the movers-and-shakers.  Be a part of the solution.  It sounds like you are.  Keep developing the proposal writing skills.  Give it six months.  Prove it to yourself, show them you bring in more (MUCH MORE) than your 40-billable, with the proposal writing (keep records) and they will beg you not to walk.  Then you need to ask for a stake of ownership.  

(this is of course... only if you want to drive in that direction... If you just want to work 40 and be left alone...well do that instead.  In any case.  Give it 6 months.  see where it goes.  At a minimum, you'll have a new-found skill that will come in handy later in life.

 

RE: "For the good of the company"

Darrell:

I think your advice is an excellent one. In all my jobs, I never refused a project, even if it was not exactly in my skill set by the time. This only made me better and more attractive to the market. I am always eager to do different things in order to open my eyes to other realities.
But again, as I said in my previous post, I had the luck that all the companies that I worked for were fair enough to see my effort and reward it accordingly.

Something says to me that this is not exactly the case of the OP.
Either way, who knows if this tender will not open him the doors of another better place to work?

RE: "For the good of the company"

"I'm burning the candle at both ends right now, and my nerves are shot."

That's the situation now, and management expect more.
It's not worth the risk to physical and mental health.

RE: "For the good of the company"

Where I work there is one guy I can think of who always puts in long hours and does lots of things for the good of the company.

He had a brain anyeurism last week and is in the hospital today; at last report, he was re-training himself how to eat with a fork.

Presumably, Management all wish him a speedy recovery...for the good of the company.

Some sacrifices aren't worth making, in my mind.  Sorry...the whole "...for the good of the company..." argument doesn't wash with me, under any circumstances.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: "For the good of the company"

I knew a guy when I was in college that worked at a restaurant as a waiter. Restaurant management asked him to terminate one of their employees, on their behalf. After he saw how much grief he got from the fired employee, he told management: "Next time you want me to fire someone for you, give me a raise!" I think that you are in a similar situation with asking other workers to put in free weekend work.

RE: "For the good of the company"

(OP)
Thanks everyone for your responses.

Working more than 40 hours is a fact of life that I've accepted for now. I'm relatively new, and I do have a lot to contribute. For a company like ours, it's understood that we need to put ourselves out there, and hopefully it will pay off.

When I made the post I was clearly in a less than optimal mental state. I had worked through the weekend and had just been told that I was also to work the following weekend (and cancel on a large dinner with my girlfriend's family that's been planned for months). On top of that, the proposal I am supposed to be writing is going nowhere (different managers have different interpretations of the RFP, and each meeting takes us one step forward, two steps backward.. kind of like having too many chefs in the kitchen).

Now, a few days later, I've had some time to reflect and let off steam. My position hasn't really changed, but I do accept much of what's been dumped on me (for now). I took this job, so now I've got to deal with it until something better comes along. I agree with some of the responses saying that this is my chance to really prove myself to the company and pick up some very valuable experience. However, I'm not sure that I'm proving myself to the right people. For now, I'm going to keep at it, and polish off my resume.

 

RE: "For the good of the company"

Reasonable and justifiable.

It isn't reasonable to upset long standing family obligations. It isn't reasonable to expect two jobs to be done for the price of one.

The over-riding concern today is ones own good. Self first, family next, company some way down the line.

For the company to expect you to do things for their benefit their has to be some collateral benefit for you and the other employees.


 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: "For the good of the company"

...(and cancel on a large dinner with my girlfriend's family that's been planned for months)...

It's that kind of BS I have little time for.  Working extra hours when it's mutually agreeable and there's at least the perception of some benefit to you is one thing, but being at their beck & call even when you have other long term plans?  There better be a bloody big carrot at the end of that stick for me to even consider doing that.

My first 18 months or so here they kept threatening me with last minute trips to customers on the weekend.  Completely messed up our entire summer travel plans etc. and not one of them ended up happening but I never found out until my wife & I had rearranged our plans.  That pretty much burnt me out on inconveniencing my family for the good of my employer.

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RE: "For the good of the company"

(and cancel on a large dinner with my girlfriend's family that's been planned for months)

That's a way to end up single, real fast.  

Doing this kind of thing for brownie points only is a fool's bargain.   

RE: "For the good of the company"

(OP)
Oh, there's no way I'm canceling the dinner. I'm not THAT foolish and my couch isn't THAT comfortable to sleep on.  

RE: "For the good of the company"

Yeah, that wasn't included in the OP.
Is it becoming a thing of the past to offer stock ownership plans, where your contribution is matched by the company?  Wouldn't that make you a "shareholder" (however small) in the success of the company?

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: "For the good of the company"

I spent Valentine's Day at a sister site sorting out an AVR failure on one of their generators. Was costing them a *lot* of money. It was important enough for me to set off in the small hours to drive to the other side of the country, to cancel a romantic dinner with my wife which had been booked a couple of months in advance, and for me to arrive home so tired that I fell asleep within half an hour. Anyone care to guess what I got as thanks?
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: "For the good of the company"

"Your Dinners in the dog and you're sleeping on the couch for XXX days (the forseable) future"?

There are some jobs where that kind of thing comes with the territory but those jobs usually have some kind of compensation be it higher base rate, or some kind of overtime or inconvenience pay etc.  However, for a job advertised/contracted as essentially 40 hours in the office with occasional travel, it's BS.

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RE: "For the good of the company"

You've gotten alot of good responses here. It comes down to how much over-time and effort YOU can put in. You made some comments alluding to the fact that you are physically and mentally spent. Sounds like you've reached your limit.

What you'll have to evaluate in the coming weeks is... Is this type of effort going to go on forever or will that amount of over-time taper off to a point you can handle.

I was in a similar situation with regards to over-time and stress. It wasn't a proposal effort but just the day to day of a particular company I worked for. It seemed the expectation was "don't work smarter just work more hours like everyone else". That wasn't the environment for me. I made it 14 months and then moved on. Thats 2 months past satisfying the terms of the move plan the company gave me.

My advice. Life is short. Do something you enjoy. If it feels wrong and you think you are being taken advantage of....you probably are.

Good luck.
 

RE: "For the good of the company"

"yea I can work the weekend, I can be in at 8, but gotta leave at 5 for a family function. Sunday I have church....also, when I was hired, I dont remember having people report to me....I will be here, their boss needs to tell them to be here."

RE: "For the good of the company"

Things like this make me so mad.  I was just put on notice that effective immediately ALL engineers will be working weekends until further notice because a couple of projects are behind.  My work is not behind, but I am being punished "for the good of the company" because some of my coworkers can't get their acts together.

Here is a paraphrasing of a discussion I just had with my boss.  I am so angry I feel like walking out and telling them where to shove it.

ME: "I have a problem with working next weekend.  I have plans to go away."

BOSS: "We will see how the projects look next week and if everything is looking in better shape, I will APPROVE you taking the time off."

ME: "I have reservations for that weekend that I made several months ago, I am taking that weekend off."

BOSS: "Wait, you are TELLING me that you are taking that time off?  You don't TELL me that you are taking time off, that's insubordination and grounds for termination!"

ME: "But boss, we are talking about a weekend, I don't need your approval to make plans for my free time."

BOSS: "You're salary aren't you?"

ME: "Yes"

BOSS: "You DON'T have free time as a salaried employee.  You are supposed to be job focused and you are expected to work whatever days and hours I deem necessary to get the job done."

Let's just say, I think it's time to dust off the old resume.



 

RE: "For the good of the company"

spongebob007:  I'd consider the dusting off and distribution of your resume your FULL TIME JOB with a boss like that to report to!

Taking a salary is not akin to indentured servitude.  Your boss had better get that sorted out in his head before he ends up as the last employee...  

RE: "For the good of the company"

Spongebob, if that was me, I would have given notice then. In any case, if my projects were on schedule and I could not directly assist a project that was behind, I would not work any extra hours.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: "For the good of the company"

Come to think of it, the notice might have been given with a closed fist.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: "For the good of the company"

Wouldn't it be a shame if you came down with suspected H1N1 that weekend...

Definitely look elsewhere, and it may be worth looking into local labor laws as even salaried/exempt or whatever you location calls it have a few rites left.

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RE: "For the good of the company"

Spongebob007:

The "boss" is a complete idiot.

My words would have been:

"I apologize for the inconvenience.  I will see you Monday."

I spent three consecutive years with one employer in the past where my annual vacation was cut short because they called me on my cell phone and asked (more like demanded) that I come back to work.  What I got, as a reward for this dedication, were three consecutive forfeited vacations.  That's it, that's all.

Even where I am at now, when I am involved in my annual vacation "work away from work" (as a performer in a live entertainment show), I still field calls and emails in the hotel at strange hours and back-stage (even on-stage) in between shows.  However, at least now I am with an employer who understands the work-life balance and goes out of his way to preserve it - which is why I take my cell phone and laptop with me on "vacation".

But, for the kind of "boss" described in your post...on the issue of working on my time off, I would be inclined to think that unfortunate things happen at bad times, like hard disk crashes in my lap top; cell phone confiscated by airport security...or it got wet...

Once when I was fishing on a lake in a chartered boat on my day off (I was "on-call" at work), I got the dreaded "come in to work" phone call.  I did.  The next weekend, I was also fishing while on call, but while pulling up the anchor, my cell phone popped off my vest and plooped into the water.  Sure enough, the "dreaded phone call" came that weekend, too, but of course I didn't know.  I do remember that whatever crisis existed somehow got resolved without me.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: "For the good of the company"

I remember a few years ago reading right wing attitudes about how corrupt trade unions where and how in this day and age they were no longer necessary because workers rights were so entrenched and bosses could never get away with and would never try bullying employees again. I wonder if their is a shift in that attitude as more of these situations become apparent.

Regards
Pat
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RE: "For the good of the company"

Labor unions don't apply to salaried ("exempt") workers.  US labor law definitions, etc., your mileage may vary, please consult operating manuals...

RE: "For the good of the company"

"your mileage may vary..." NSS

'exempt' isn't necessarily the same thing as 'salaried' and in some cases non managerial salaried staff may not offically be exempt.  Oh and of course one major aerospace shell company's engineers are largely unionized.

That's why I said check local labor laws, I believe the aquatic half sponge, half potatoe may be from CT don't know what the laws are like but being in the NE he may have some protection.

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RE: "For the good of the company"

They don't here either, but I think a standard of conduct once established flows through.

In any case my real point is even though trade unions may not apply in this case, the principle of a change in the balance of power for any reason soon results in the unscrupulous on either side exploiting their advantage in an unreasonable way.  

Regards
Pat
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RE: "For the good of the company"

The unit may not apply, but certently employees will become disenfrangized. When this happens then the company will either need to hire more employees, or require over time just to keep up with where they were.

Everyone loses.

This is either misguidance in managment, or the case of the peter principal.

RE: "For the good of the company"

Also the language in the above exchange if it is acurate, shows a lot about personalities, pressures etc.

The boss is trying real hard to retain his authority when he feels threatened.

The boss may actually not agree with the policy, but has been instructed to enforce a policy he does not agree with.

Regards
Pat
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RE: "For the good of the company"

This will result in higher turnover, and the collection of dead wood.

Those that can leave will look into it, those that can't will become less productive.

RE: "For the good of the company"

"This will result in higher turnover, and the collection of dead wood."

My company did this prolonged forced overtime once before (at least that I know of)and I was told that people who refused to work at least 60 hours a week were retaliated against come performance review time with zero raise.   There were certainly people who quit over it and at least one manager stepped down because he didn't think it was right. There was quite a morale fallout and management talked a good game about work-life balance, but here we are almost four years later and they are doing the same thing again.

Pat is correct, it's not so much my boss, but the pressure from above him where this edict was handed down. His boss has the management style of a dictator.  
 

RE: "For the good of the company"

spongebob:  If they're so short-handed, can he really afford to threaten you with termination?

Hg

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RE: "For the good of the company"

This isn't the time of the industrial revolution where there was still the accepted normal distinction between bourgeosie and proletariat.

The management of the company are either very, very old or very, very stupid.

That said, I would imagine that there are few hard and fast enforceable rules about what goes into the determination of mandatory pay raises, unless you belong to a union.  So, if you choose to accept the "punishment by zero raise" scenario, I suppose they can do that.

In my mind, if you do not own major shares in the business and are not an "owner", but merely an "employee", they can't "force you" to work overtime to fix the inefficiencies caused by anyone other than yourself directly.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: "For the good of the company"

I would suggest this is more about ego and a feeling of power and maybe some a$$ covering at the highest level.

Unfortunately those who most strongly desire power and are driven and will go to no ends to get it, are more likely to get it. They are often substantially less competent to lead than those who are more reluctant to seek power, for that very reason.  

Regards
Pat
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RE: "For the good of the company"

With that thinking, we should be dragging people into managment and politics, because they are better than the people who want to be there?

Good idea.

 

RE: "For the good of the company"

Pat, a star for that last.  The lesson was learned in the course of just about every war fought by the US and its allies, at hard cost (many lives lost).  The best leaders were promoted from the ranks of working troops.  The worst leaders were typically political appointments.  The lesson then gets forgotten, or ignored.

RE: "For the good of the company"

CRANKY maybe not draggine people in, but perhaps excluding or limiting some.

I always find it interesting how many legislatures & leaders have legal backgrounds compared to just about anything else.  They make laws that to some extend end up being challenged/interpreted etc. by others in the legal proffesion.  One might view it as a big job creations scheme by the lawyers etc.

What about being a lawyer implies you'd be good at running a country, or at lest any better than a myriad other backgrounds.  You may be better at playing the legal system but that's surely a means, not the end.

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RE: "For the good of the company"

Good question, why legal backgrounds? Why not business or managment?

Here's an idea, come in on the weekend and spend the day looking at job openings. When you find one nicer than the one you have, send a resume. After all its good for you to keep up with your skills of salesmenship.

That way they have a chioce, have you look for another job while they don't pay you, or send you home to enjoy your life.

RE: "For the good of the company"

3 things really struck me, the first was this.

You are relatively new, and this company has pinned a bunch of work and importance on your job, but I am assuming you are being paid around the going rate given they don't pay overtime?  So either your company lacks decent employees if the "new guy" can show up and run the show this quickly or management is seriously lazy.  Both bode poorly for your future here.

The second thing is if you are billable 40 hours and then boss should have no problem tossing you a bone and paying you straight time for your extra work on bids.  I have been in Consulting for 4 years now, this is real standard procedure.  Do note: if you are not a salaried employee, ie you are paid an hourly rate, most States mandate you be paid for it, so if things go bad, you have that card to play the the Dept of Labor.

And my final thought is this, that first bid you "reviewed and edited" looks suspiciously like someone else has become fed up with the system and was trying to pass on the "honor" of working for free to you.  Something to think about.

 

this message has been approved for citizen to elect kepharda 2008

RE: "For the good of the company"

You really have to leave as graciously and as soon as you can. No good company works this way. Business is business, and your business is to get paid as much as possible for every hour you put in. Besides that working 60hr weeks regularly even whilst being paid for every minute does not give you a good life.

Engineering, a great hobby.

RE: "For the good of the company"

"For a company like ours, it's understood that we need to put ourselves out there, and hopefully it will pay off."

The problem with that view is that "hope is not a strategy".


"However, I'm not sure that I'm proving myself to the right people."


Is there a way you can talk to the right people and negotiate a deal that gets you properly compensated for this work?


Tough situation, best wishes

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