An Odd Situation
An Odd Situation
(OP)
So here is the situation. I have been working for an AE consulting company for a year now. The owner of the company hired my boss about 14 months ago to start up a Civil/Surveying department. My boss hired me 2 months later, and then a couple months later he hired a surveyor. It hasn't been the best of experiences because my boss had not done any surveying or site design work in the past 25 years. I have stuck with it though because of the economy and just to get some time under my belt. But to get to the main point, yesterday he took me and the surveyor out for lunch and told us he was leaving the company on Nov. 1. He is going to work for another company. The company he is going to is being started by 5 or 6 guys that quit their jobs last week in the Environmental Engineering department of this company. They decided to start their own company and have apparently been planning this move for a while. So my boss told me and my surveyor that he would like us to go to this new company with him. I asked him if we would be doing Civil Engineering work at the new company and his answer was basically a no. It will mostly be dealing with environmental site cleanups. I am within 1-2 years of being able to take my PE exam and become licensed, and not sure if moving to this company will be beneficial for me. My boss has told me and the surveyor not to say anything about him leaving to the owner of the company we are at now, for fear that he will be fired on the spot. So me and the surveyor already don't like working for our boss, but if we were to stay at this company I could see the owner pulling the plug on the whole department. I am not sure if he would hire someone to replace my boss or not. So I am stuck with moving to that new company, staying here, or looking elsewhere for a job. I would really like the owner of the company i'm at now to know what is going on so that he can decide if he would like to keep a Civil/Survey department, or figure out how to re-assign me or whatever he would do. My boss says that he is looking out for the best interest of me and the surveyor, but to me it seems that isn't the case at all. I've probably left some details out, but any comments/advice/thoughts would be apprectiated!





RE: An Odd Situation
I can tell you if you tell the owner the civil boss will be fired and you will have lost your job offer with him and still not know if you are going to have a job. As well as burned 5 or 6 bridges of the others who will be fired.
If you do go with him and he is licensed you will still be working under a licensed engineer regardless of the type of work you are performing and can count those years towards your PE. And you can take your PE specialty in any one you want to.
Does not sound pleasant. I hope you sleep well tonite. Good luck with your decision.
RE: An Odd Situation
If I liked my boss, and didn't like my job then if the circumstances were right, I'd jump with him. If it's vice versa, then you're in a tough spot.
V
RE: An Odd Situation
RE: An Odd Situation
Say nothing to your current employer about this guy leaving. The messenger of bad news is rarely rewarded. Take care of yourself first. Never assume anyone is giving you information for your benefit. It is self-serving on his part.
Be non-comital with your boss who is leaving if this does not sound like something you want to pursue.
Dress up the resume and start looking for alternate work.
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: An Odd Situation
vc66:
They may have a clause signed preventing them to steal the employees from the current employer.
ttuterry:
You obviously are not that close to your boss, otherwise you would not have posted here.
You always can tell those rebels, that once they are up and running they can make you an offer and you will think about it. This leaves you an opening, if those rebels are in fact a bunch of smart people and are successful in the future.
You appear to be just starting your career, I can't imagine what special or more will they offer you, compared to your current 'established' employer. If you were an experienced engineer, who would command a authoritative or a key position in the new company it would have been a different matter. He appears to be looking for a cheap help.
You also want to review what contract you signed when you joined, especially the non-compete clause. The 'rebels' may not have singed the same thing as you , years ago. Modern contracts are more restrictive.
Although you will not be starting your own business against the current employer, if you leave with the rebels and the current employer decides to sue them, you could end up being one of the defendants. But there would be no issues, working for them at a later date.
I would not assume that the current employer will close the department. They can find the replacement. In fact, you would stand a better chance to get another employment or even collect unemployment (if in the USA) if let go by the current employer, than say if you were to go with the rebels and they letting you go due to lack of work soon after!
On other notes, I hate unethical people. You can't trust them for any other things. It is one thing to leave a company and start your own (which I also did a few months ago) and it is another to steal the employees of your current owner and basically undermine the very employer who supported you for so many years.
For this reason alone I would not go with him.
As for letting your current owner know, be careful. Except for the current owner himself, the person you may go to and confide to may be one of the rebels!
If you have good rapport with the current owner, it may be ethical to let him know. But if he lets out your name, it wont' do any good to you. Key is not to burn your bridges and contacts. If you are new to the firm, just play dumb and stay out of the mess. It may have roots in previous details that you may not be aware of. If someone specifically asks, you can say you have heard the rumors.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: An Odd Situation
As someone else noted, he might be under a non-compete, no recruiting agreement with the current employer. If so, he has most certainly breached that agreement.
As for your licensing dilemma, as long as you work under the supervision of a licensed P.E., the you are covered from a qualifications standpoint, provided of course that the work you are doing is in fact engineering. If it is not, then you have a problem.
RE: An Odd Situation
While few jobs are 'secure' some are even less secure than others and being the junior staffer at a start up in bleak economic times...
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: An Odd Situation
If his boss is starting a new company that's not competing with his current employer, what's the difference? Maybe I'm missing something.
V
RE: An Odd Situation
"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
RE: An Odd Situation
Non-compete does not prevent starting your own business, as you rightly mention. It is there to prevent soliciting work from the current clients. But that does not prevent a large from suing, even if they lose and most do lose.
Prohibiting soliciting employees of the previous employer is a different matter is often part of the non-compete clause.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: An Odd Situation
RE: An Odd Situation
I would definatly stay at the company where you are but suggest to the boss that if the department is closed you would still be interested in coming to work for him. I'd also reassure him that you will not tell the boss. My biggest quandry is whether to tell the owner in some general "I've heard rumors" anonymous way. If the owner asks you did you know about this you would then be able so say that yes, but I did leave an anonymous note letting you know. Otherwise the owner may feel you're complicit in the rebellion even if you didn't leave.
Yeah, your boss put you in a moral cess pool. Good luck with it.
-Kirby
Kirby Wilkerson
Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.
RE: An Odd Situation
RE: An Odd Situation
i would choose the do nothing alternative right now...
get the resume ready....
wait til the numnut leaves....then see what happens..
Thanks,
Scott
RE: An Odd Situation
It gives you three choices:
- go with your boss to the new company
- stay where you are
- be ready to jump somewhere else
The first two options could leave you up the creek so you need a contingency.Oh, and be glad you know ahead of time that some day soon the s**t is going to hit the fan.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: An Odd Situation
Just be as usual and keep looking for a better job.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: An Odd Situation
Has the "potential" start up company offered you anything? Have you asked?
if you want to invest your future in this start up company they need to make a proposal to you that will include renumeration and what the escape routes are. What happens if the company goes belly up, what will happen to you?
I would be investigating what the start-up has to offer before making a decision, or loosing sleep. If the offer is exciting, it may then cause me to loose sleep.
RE: An Odd Situation
RE: An Odd Situation
However, most non-compete clauses hold up pretty well against employees that quit to form competing businesses, especially if that employees is using inside knowledge of his employer to gain an advantage. If your current employer was inclined, he could get a court order stalling your boss's efforts indefinitely.
RE: An Odd Situation
Your boss told you of his plans in confidence. He has the right to leave employment with his employer as do you. Ethically, you must keep his discussion with you in confidence, unless he is doing something unethical or illegal and you have not indicated that this is so.
By taking you into his confidence, he has indicated that he appreciates the quality of your work and work ethic; however, you appear to not like working for him. Your only quandary appears to be whether your eemployment will be terminated with your present employer when your boss leaves. I can only state that your boss can readily be replaced unless he holds the key to your company's survival, which appears doubtful from your discussion.
RE: An Odd Situation
Doesn't sound like a good idea.
I would start looking for something else, outside of these two companies.
V
RE: An Odd Situation
sounds like it would be easy to prove, would you lie under oath about the dinner an what was said?
There are lots of precidents for this kind of suit.
Your current boss should quit, start his own company, seek people (not exclusively call people at his old employers) and hire what he needs. If some one at his old employers calls him first - no problem.
Your present employer is being unfairly damaged. He can recover damages.
RE: An Odd Situation
That way when your boss leaves you might be able to take his position.
Maybe that's just crazy. Maybe they'll just assume you knew something they didn't.
RE: An Odd Situation
So don't make any sudden moves unless there is a firm offer on board. You can use that offer as leverage to stay in your current situation.
drawn to design, designed to draw
RE: An Odd Situation
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: An Odd Situation
V
RE: An Odd Situation
If the new company will be getting work thru government contracts, this will be a very public knowledge and your current employer will find out very easily, being a competitor. I smell a lawsuit here from your current employer.
Also, is your boss' new company already has signed contracts from the government or they are just in the planning stages? I'll doubt they will be successful with their new venture if it is the latter. It's not easy securing a government contract because of the large amount of competition and preference given to some companies over the other (i.e., disadvantaged, minority, veteran, etc.).
Go devise your own plan with your own interest as a 3rd option. You can't rely on your current employer and your boss' new company to make it for you. Everybody will try to protect their own interests and so should you.
RE: An Odd Situation
RE: An Odd Situation
RE: An Odd Situation
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: An Odd Situation
It is generally hard to prove that the previous employer has indeed suffered because of the new business.
Of course, it also depends how good or bad the lawyers are.
A reasonable non-compete clause has more of a chance of being upheld than a aggressively restrictive one.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: An Odd Situation
RE: An Odd Situation
A large engineering firm I worked for once hired a senior level technician who was under a competitor's infamous non-compete agreement. They had to "unhire" the technician after the competitor filed in court to prevent his hiring.
Both firms had multiple offices in the state and across the US. He was stopped from working for competitors within the stated distance of at least two offices in the state, maybe more.
RE: An Odd Situation
It may have lot to do with the type of work, lawyers or defendants giving up. In CT and MA distance for engineering does not hold water.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: An Odd Situation
Ron
RE: An Odd Situation
I can't speak for the lawyers. If you web search, a few good discussions/ articles turn up on the subject. For one, the distance was not mentioned in my clause, which I presume was very carefully written that suggests that it does not matter. My understanding is that even if written it won't be enforceable in all cases. I emphasize 'all'.
According to what I had read in some articles (months ago when I looked that up for my interest), the distance limitation is more important for businesses like stores, medical clinic, restaurants and such where a new business will directly cut into the local customer base. That logic is not pertinent to technical consultants as their clients are seldom locals. Our local client means within 100 miles or driving distance. My previous employer had clients in GA a good 1000mi away, so where is the relationship of distance?
One can have their office, next door to their so called competitors and still not have clients within the state or one can have a office 1000 mi away and still work on other's local clients!
The consensus of the articles also suggested that most judges will sympathize with the new business (entrepreneurial is encouraged)and burden of proof of damage is usually on the previous employers. This, of course, is no consolation if you are in middle of a lawsuit.
I also know of a local case where, eventually the former employer had to settle at an arbitrator, with 3 of their former employees as they did not have much to go on besides intimidation. I do not know what was actually written in the agreement. If you do not steal the recent clients, there is not much of an argument.
But the expense, intimidation and nuisance value act as a good deterrent. It can still cost you, whether or not your are right.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: An Odd Situation
Each time I left a company, I had developed my own client base and usually took them with me...without retribution.
Ron
RE: An Odd Situation
Before I sold out, I was in the position of owning the corporation as a result of buying out two ex-partners. We had them sign non-competes with a 100-mile radius and a one-year time frame. They left, opening up a competing consulting firm 6 floors above us in the same building in less than a week. They took 12 on-going jobs that were under contract and stole 3 major Clients and two employees.
We took them to Illinois State court for violating the non-compete, spending about $60,000.....and lost. Lost the whole thing. Not one aspect of the non-compete was enforced. Sixty thousand dollars down the toilet on top of the lost projects. The ex-partners I'd guess spent about $30,000, easily covered by the fees for the stolen projects.
So as far as non-competes go, I'd just take a good hard, unemotional look at the numbers and probabilities because in the end you might as well use the noncompete contract to line a bird cage.
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: An Odd Situation
RE: An Odd Situation
On the other hand, patents do require loads of dosh and patent holders often fail simply because they don't have enough money to follow through.
This is where I support Trevor Baylis' call for some kind of reform of the law. Clearly most governments support patent law but don't seem able to address the fact that patent infringers can buy their way out of an adverse decision.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: An Odd Situation
1) Your boss is not looking out for you, he is looking out for himself and not doing that all so well by telling anyone his plans.
2) Your boss is behaving in an unethical way, so don't trust him.
3) Despite the above, he is still your boss and he did give you your current job. You owe him some loyalty for that.
4) The dilemma is you also owe those who finally pay your salary loyalty for that so long as that exists.
5) To betray your boss to the owners will show you as being disloyal and not to be trusted.
6) Being part of the conspiracy will also show you as being disloyal, unethical and not to be trusted. You are between a rock and a hard place in that regard.
7) Do you know why your boss is leaving, what is going on with your current company, the new proposed company and the client. Has the project been handled poorly by the current company re charges or competence or has your boss white anted his current employer or something entirely different.
8) What are the legal obligations re existing contracts. That subject has been broached by most responders but not yet by you.
9) The poor wording of the title of this thread and the scant information so far provided leads one to believe you have some poor communication skills, but it is also possible that you are selecting evidence to guide the advice toward what you want to hear. For the best advice we need the best information. Fess up as to all you know or to what you don't know and what your objectives are. Are they to come out financial best off, to stay most secure with less money, to do the ethical thing or to protect your reputation. Are you looking to the long, medium or short term in money and/or security.
There is no clear answer and still some significant questions.
From what I have seen and disregarding what I suspect is between the lines, and the advice several others have offered:-
1) Do not betray a confidence.
2) Do not participate any further in any conspiracy.
3) Prepare for a promotion where you are.
4) Proactivly seek new employment, possibly through some recruiters.
5) Keep your options open with your boss to negotiate AFTER he leaves. You should clearly explain to him that you will respect his confidence for discussions to date, but you are uncomfortable about those discussions and any continuation until after he leaves.
6) You need to be conscious and cautious of his unethical behavior to date, but not to judgmental as it is quite unlikely that you know his real motives and the background leading to this. For instance he might simply be greedy and is trying to take his bosses share of any profit on a project, or he may have been instructed to act outside his own conscience with regard to dealings with this or even several customers.
7) If asked directly by anyone over your bosses hear, while ever he is still your boss, simply state that you have no wish to betray any confidence or show disloyalty toward your boss. If pressed, state you are not and will not be any part of any ALLEGED conspiracy. Do not confirm the conspiracy. They may not like that answer but they will respect it, which is the least damaging outcome you can get from an overall long term point of view.
Regards
Pat
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RE: An Odd Situation
Well said!
Ron
RE: An Odd Situation
Also, environmental work is the only thing going on nowadays. And with all this guys experience, I'm thinking the business will be a success.
If you decide not to go, you could very well find yourself in a situation where the company you are with now goes out of business (depending on there line of work) and you go to your old boss looking for a job.
yes, it's that bad out there.
RE: An Odd Situation
patprimmer said::
"Despite the above, he is still your boss and he did give you your current job. You owe him some loyalty for that."
I dissagree. As soon he stepped over the line all bets are off.
RE: An Odd Situation
Nonsense, I say. Go toward the money and opportunity young man!
RE: An Odd Situation
RE: An Odd Situation
Thank you for getting back with the update. Not many do that.
I also believe that you took the right decision.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: An Odd Situation
I wonder what makes some people think it is worth it or that they will get away with it.
That said, it happens.
At one company I was at one "employee" was gathering info for another company". This is stupid behaviour both for him and for the other company.
Heck, our product marketing manager was quite openly looking for information on competitor company products, the sort of thing all companies do, nothing clandestine, nothing apparently illegal, just literature etc He wasn't asking himself, he was getting friendly agents to request literature.
He got a rocket from the Dept. of Trade.
Quite what the difference was between him and some company like Frost and Sullivan putting together market data I don't know. But getting inside information on clients, prices, costs ect is a definite crime.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: An Odd Situation
I decided to stay with the original company which has turned out to be a great choice. The final 2 weeks of my ex-bosses employment were the most awkward and uncomfortable weeks I have ever experienced. His recruiting efforts became pretty much a constant thing and were not limited to outside work or lunchtime. He also became very lazy and bashed the current company constantly. He even decided in his mind that it would be best to turn in a combined resignation letter for me, him, and our surveyor. This idea was obviously immediately shot down by me and the surveyor. The week after he quit he asked me to come work for him part times during the evenings. I never once told him I was committed to going to the new place and I stayed neutral to the whole situation. He offered me raises and bonuses but I still decided to stay here. I am curious of anyobody's opinion on the ethics of the whole situation. It seems that recruiting for your new employer, which is a competitor to your old employer, while still working at your old employer is very unethical. In the month since he has been gone, my work situation has improved greatly. My new boss doesn't watch over my shoulder all the time, and i was even given a loyalty bonus for sticking with the company. The owner and I have had discussions about how he is going to utilize me and how to make the best out of the situation. Two more people quit this company today to go to that same company my boss went to which is a little unsettling. But I am satisfied with my decision to stay here!
RE: An Odd Situation
Ad you got a loyalty bonus? That's something I don't think I'll ever see.
Hope your situation keeps improving.
V
RE: An Odd Situation
Thank you for the update. I also think you made the right decisions, especially when you find yourself at peace with it. You deserved the loyalty bonus and your employer also must be commended for their positive action.
Good luck in the future!
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: An Odd Situation
Your list follows ...
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